pro and against 444marlin and 45/70 gov.

[Griffin]

hi everybody,
i have to ask you for your objective view of the above calibers.
What are the differences and what do i get in 45-70 that i dont get in 444 marlin.
i am about to buy a new levergun and i am looking at 45-70. i dont know much about 444 marlin and therefore i ask you, who always give very, and i mean very good answers. i will hunt moose and wild pigs (wild bore i think)
i do intend to shoot boolits, a lot of them, please take that also under consideration.
as always, thanks in advance
/Karl

[jbc]

my take on the 444 vs 45-70 argument has always been that if you are shooting factory ammo you are better off with the 444 because the 45-70 ammo is loaded down to trapdoor levels and the 444 factory ammo is loaded to much higher pressures because it is a newer cartridge only chambered in newer actions but if you reload it is pretty much a wash, both will work great.

I guess my deciding factor if you reload would be what other components you keep stocked up on are. Do you have a .44 mag? If you do then I would go with the .444 because you could have boolits that work for both on hand and less molds to buy. If not then either would serve you just fine.

[Gunfixer]

As far as I'm concerned , bullet/boolit weights are the big difference. Up to 500+ in the 45, mid 300's in the 44. I shoot both, using the Lee 340 in the 45-70 and right now j-words in the 444 ( I have a lot and have not decided on a mould for it). In Sweden which brass is easier to come by? Might help in the decision.

[DLCTEX]

I would go with the 45-70 on the basis of availability of ammo, brass, and reloading dies etc. Finding ammo to replace that left at home or lost can be a problem with 444 Marlin in a lot of the country. Of course this is based on the USA, I don't know how available either is where you are or are likely to be.

[beagle]

The .45/70 gets my vote...hands down.

Availability of bullet designs, ease of loading and components and less limitation on OAL. IMO, that's what sours me on the .444 and I own a pair of the ballard rifling Marlin M95s...one of each caliber.

I highly recommend the M95 .45/70 as I've been really happy with mine. In fact, I dumped a #1 .45/70 because the Marlin, in a lever gun out shot the #1./beagle

[leftiye]

If you buy a .444 be real sure as to what your twist is. Older Marlins (and - I think[?] - the current micro groove barrels) were in a 1 in 38 twist. There is disagreement as to what works in the slow twist. My take is that it isn't supposed to work with heavy bullets or boolits, and to avoid it - and the uncertainty.

Lack of being able to use a 400 grain boolit would ruin the .444 in my view. Newer barrels are in "ballard" rifling (more or less standard rifling), and a 1 in 20 twist, but the rifling is still very shallow. Not made for cast.

[softpoint]

I only have one .444 at the moment, and several 45/70's, So it could be said I'm partial to the 45/70. If you live in the continental United States, the .444 is plenty for any kind of hunting. As the other posters have said, it will make a difference if you reload or not. The 405 grain factory load in the 45/70, will also take care of anything in the lower 48, just won't shoot quite as flat, if that makes a difference.
I'd probably still choose the 45/70, though thats just me.
On the plus side of the .444, the couple I have owned seemed to be SLIGHTLY more accurate with their preferred load than the 45/70.,at normal hunting ranges.
It's kind of like the old .308 vs. 270 vs 30/06 discussions. Pages have been written on that subject, and the final prognosis : they all three kill game well, they are all three accurate!, :mrgreen::drinks:
Just get both and give us a report!

[hiram]

If you don't reload, the 45-70 factory ammo has a 400 or 405 grain bullet. Even if it is loaded down to make it safe in older firearms, that's still a respectable weight bullet holding alot of energy.

[Griffin]

ok, this made it hard.
i need to shoot boolits well beacuse of costs and interest.
i do reload and has no problems whatsoever with finding components for either, its equally hard to get them both so to say here in sweden.
i have tried a ruger no 1 in 45/70 and its a a nice gun. i have looked at a marlin gg in 45/70 and also a 1895 with longer barrel than the guide gun.
These guns are very hard to find in sweden in a used condition and a bit expensive as new.
the 444 marlin is not as popular as the 45/70 here just now and there is a few used in cirkulation.
i am a bit sensitive to recoil and found a moderate load for the 350 gr flat nose in 45/70 ideal.
how does the loads differ and the bullet energy - trajectory?
consider me not knowing much.
/Karl

[Ricochet]

When the .444 was introduced in 1964, it was intended to be a "magnumized" .44 Magnum. It had a 1:38" twist because that's what Ruger's then-popular .44 Magnum Carbine used, copied from the old .44-40 Winchester that only used a 200 grain flat nosed bullet. 240 grain .44 Magnum pistol bullets stabilized OK in that, but at a muzzle velocity of 2400 FPS (the original loading) they were reported to be rather explosive on game. Before too long Hornady brought out a 265 grain bullet for reloaders with a thicker jacket to perform better at .444 velocities. It'll work with boolits up to 300 grains or so. If you load those down to .44 Magnum velocities, they'll be pretty comfortable to shoot.

Personally, I think the .45-70 is a lot more versatile, and there's seldom a good reason to load it more heavily than blackpowder ballistics. The recoil's very manageable with a 340 grain boolit at 1475 FPS from my "1895." If I don't wear thick clothing or a recoli pad, though, mine will bruise my shoulder with the sharp tip of the old hard, curved buttplate. More recent models have gone to better butt designs instead of trying to make them look old fashioned, and I highly recommend that.

[Ohio Rusty]

I knew a fellow that loaded 45-70's with some powder, kapok and a round ball. He used that load for rabbits and other small game.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I would go with the 45-70 mainly because of the far greater boolit, bullet and mould selections. However as others have noted if you are already loading for a 44 caliber ammo it might be cheaper and more efficient to go with the 444.

[Down South]

A lot of the guys around me are swapping over to the 444 from the 45-70. The 444 will shoot a flatter trajectory and these guys are using them to hunt with. To me the 45-70 is a more versatile round for a lot of the above mentioned resons. There are not a lot of bullet choices out there for the 444. The 45-70 in a modern firearm (one that can take the higher pressures) can be loaded close to the trajectory of the lighter 444. That being said the energy from the 45-70 is much greater than that of the 444.
I was able to pick up a nice set of RCBS dies, several hundred rounds of once fired 45-70 brass and several boxes of the old Hornady Levervolution bullets for 50 bucks from one of the guys swapping over. I was happy.

[phaessler]

You mean there is something else besides the .45-70Govt. ?? Do tell.... I would have to say the .45-70 is tops of the standard straight cases, leaving the .45-90's and 45-120's alone here. Plenty of selections for powder, bullets, black powder, molds. As well as rifles, its been chambered in everything from singles to levers, and bolt guns. Something to said for "if it works, just use it", and with its energy its a great round
On the other hand , I do agree the .444Marlin is a very nice round and does offer some interchangability with the .44Mag as far a molds go, other than that its a different animal, far from being a .44Mag Short. But thats about it.
Just my opinion, and like little toes we all have them.

Pete

[Marlin Junky]

The 444 shoots great with 300+ grain boolits but there's the issue of getting enough diameter out of currently available pistol molds (I assume we're talking about 336's made after 1999-2000). Even if you were able to get hold of an early 444, you'd be looking at the possibility of a .424"/.433", 12 groove barrel; therefore, the old adage of being able to use pistol BOOLITS in the .444 kinda has some reservation attached to it. I'm having difficulty finding current ferrous molds from Lyman, SAECO and RCBS that'll drop .432+" boolits but there are custom alternatives. I'm trying to decide whether to purchase a 434-300 (it's a plain base) or 360-220 from BRP (http://www.brp.castpics.net/) (a vendor/sponsor here on Cast Boolits) and will just have to decide for now whether I prefer to shoot my .444 or .35 on a regular basis. I suppose I could order both molds at once but that would be financially reckless. ;-) Of course Christmas is just around the corner! With all that said and done, I have been able to run Lee 430310 very hot at near 800F and cast .431" to .432" boolits with this very inexpensive alternative (with my .4305" groove diameter at the muzzle, a .431" boolit is just about optimum and the addition of the gas check installed via a custom .432" H-I die has produced fine accuracy at over 2000 fps). Ya gotta whack the hinge pin on 430310 pretty good to get 'em out of the mold when casting at near 800F and I've galled the top of the mold blocks, but it casts good boolits (albeit slowly) regardless of its well used appearance (I've produced about 300 excellent boolits from it so far). Anyway another quirk of the 444 is that the case is too long (IMHO) for the action and there's only about .35" available outside the case for a boolit if you want your rounds to cycle through the 336 action (this may not bother you). There's a gunsmith by the name of Mick McPherson who can lengthen the 336 action to accommodate 2.73" rounds and I've been thinking about sending my gun to him but the cost is $250.00(US) to add less than 3/16" to the C.O.L. Nevertheless, an additional .16" of powder space will bump the velocity a bit. With respect to 400 grain custom molds, deep seating will be required (if restricted to a 2.57" C.O.L), powders may be limited to certain sphericals (or possibly XMR 2015 and H322) and brass thinning may also be required to enable chambering... 1800 fps may be achievable at reasonable pressures.

In contrast, the 45-70 is way more flexible with the heavier boolits (I don't own one yet, but a friend does) but the 300's loose their ambition pretty fast due to low sectional density. A 300 grain .43" boolit has approximately the same S.D. as a 150 grain .30 cal and the 300 grain .45 is more like a 135 grain .30. I've shot my friends 45-70 with max loads using a 465 grain boolit and it's not something I find enjoyable except if a Bison was on the opposite end. If you want your boolits to expand, the extra velocity of the .444 (over the .45-70) might help a bit. If you can start a .43" 300 to 325 grain boolit out at 2100 to 2200 fps (you might need that extra .16" of powder to do the upper end) and are working with a BHN 12 to 14 HP design you may get some expansion out to 200 yards where the velocity could be in the 1500 to 1600 fps range. I've chronographed 430310 at 100 yards and it looses about 350 fps getting there when stated at 2000 to 2100 fps, but it is awful blunt.

So anyway, I guess it just comes down to what you want to do with the gun and be aware of its strengths and weaknesses. If you don't want to cast 350 to 450 grain boolits, go with the .444 for a bit more velocity and somewhat less recoil (with max. loads). You may have better luck finding readily available molds that fit well for the 45-70, though. However, this may be a point up for debate regarding the Marlin because I've heard even their 45-70 is wide in the grooves (gaschecks, which will add cost to your rounds, will help this situation). If it makes any difference at all, with respect to the 336, I think you can get one more round in the .444's magazine and it seems easier to load the .444 fast because of its smaller rim... the difference is really in the details. I think .44 checks are a bit less than .45 checks too.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I want to add that the 336 has had Ballard rifling and a 1:20 twist for 10 years now with the first model, the 444P, introduced in 1999. The following year, the 22" version, the 444S (they just call it the 444 now) incorporated the same barrel configuration. Now with that said, I have been casting with a high tin content alloy in my 430310 mold because of the diameter issue discussed above and my boolits are coming out at approximately BHN 17; i.e., I haven't actually tried a BHN 12 to 14 boolit through my .425"(IIRC)/.431" barrel yet... I hope all this helps somewhat.

MJ

[Marlin Hunter]

I have had both the 444 and 45/70 marlin. The 444 is my favorite hunting rifle. Marlin didn't have the 450 when I bought it otherwise I might never have owned the 444. That being said I will NEVER sell the 444. The only thing bad I can say about the 45/70 is that factory loads are weak, and the brass is also weak and gets damaged easy when reloading. If you are looking at the 45/70, I think you would enjoy the 450 marlin better, unless you want something nostalgic. Brass for the 450 is about the same as for the 45/70. there are more molds available for the 45 caliber boolits than 44.

I think you would be happier with the 450 marlin than the 444 or 45/70

[Leadforbrains]

I have a .444 Model"P" Outfitter. It shoots cast boolits fine. I have killed two hogs with it and My son used it to take his hog last season. Either rifle is a good choice, but we all have our preferences.

[Freischütz]

I was hot to buy a big-bore lever action back in 1972. The Marlin 45/70 had just been released. I compared the 45/70 and 444 Marlin and decided on the 45/70 for the following reasons:
the 444 was viewed as an express cartridge with high velocity and light weight bullets
444 Marlin bullets were not heavily constructed
the 45/70 had many more bullet and boolit choices
45/70 cases and ammunition were readily available
the Marlin action limited the cartridge's overall length - so the larger diameter 45 cal bullet had the potential for more bullet weight without losing too much case capacity

If I were in your situation, I'd see if these reasons are still valid. I'd pay particular attention to the brass and bullet situation. You may have some adaptable cases that would be cheaper than US imports.

[BrianB]

Since you reload, I would personally go with the 45-70. I'm not exactly sure what the biggest animal you plan to hunt is, but over here, the 45-70 will kill anything that walks, with the right load. There are more guns chambered for it and there are more components for it. I have hunted with a 45-70 for about 15 years and never saw any need for a .444 or even gave one a second thought.

[rob45]

i have tried a ruger no 1 in 45/70 and its a a nice gun. i have looked at a marlin gg in 45/70 and also a 1895 with longer barrel than the guide gun.
These guns are very hard to find in sweden in a used condition and a bit expensive as new.
the 444 marlin is not as popular as the 45/70 here just now and there is a few used in cirkulation.

/Karl

You might want to take into consideration WHY you are having a difficult time finding a used 45-70. Is it because it is an unpopular cartridge, or is it because guys tend to hang onto them more so than the 444?[smilie=1:

They are both excellent chamberings, but I believe you will have less headache with the 45-70, at least starting out. The longer history results in more load options, regardless of the type of load you're developing. More types of molds/bullet designs. More data available with different powders. Also consider popularity- generally speaking, the more popular cartridge is usually easier to find components, specifically brass.

[softpoint]

Griffin,
If you can find a .444 at the moment, and 45/70's are hard to find, Get the .444! Don't do without a Marlin! :-P Seriously, One will pretty much do anything the other one will. And I have some 335 grain bullets (cast) for my .444, so there are heavier than 300 grain out there. You could have a mold cut in pretty much any diameter and weight you want.
:smile:

[XWrench3]

well, i reload, and went through what you are going thru a while back. i decided on the 45/70. my reasoning was 1) availability of factory ammo, of which there is everything from mild plinking loads, to stuff powerful enough to kill cape buffalo with. 2) availability of ammo comonents (for reloading), 3) the fact that much of the 44 caliber comonents are aimed at pistols, and pistol velocities, where as the 45 caliber bullets are designed for rifles exclusively 4) the 45/70 has been arond for over 100 years, and is more popular today that it has ever been. the 444, is a waining caliber. by the time my kids get this gun, the 444 may already be extinct. now, the next thing is deciding on how long of a barrel you want, and whether you want a straigh grip or a curved grip. you may have to find an older model if you want a curved grip.

[45r]

I'd get a 45-70,you won't be disappointed.It can do anything the 444 will do with less pressure and it is very accurate.

[paul edward]

One factor not yet mentioned is that the .45/70 is a former US military cartridge. As such it will remain available for at least another century or two.

Since you are located in Sweden, availability of components might be an issue. The .45/70 is by far the more popular of the two cartridges. This might be a factor in your decision.

Paul
Denver

[Griffin]

thanks a lot for all answers. i will have to read these a few times to really think through all that has been written. It seems like its a close call between the two of them.
/Karl

[Leftoverdj]

Karl, you've already got problems getting components. Don't aggravate them. The question of which is superior is irrelevant if you can't get or make ammo. I'd completely reject the .450 Marlin because you can't count on getting cases in 20 years. I'd be very dubious of the .444 for the same reason. The .444 is pretty well dependent on Marlin, and, even now, ammo and cases are not a stock item in many places. If Marlin goes under or drops the chambering, the ammo will follow.

I'm reasonably confident that .45-70 will be around for another hundred years. It's easier to find cases even now, and the selection of moulds and bullets is far better.

[tcrocker]

I LOVE my Marlin GS 45-70 it's my only rifle I hunt with. I use a NEI mold weighing in at 464gr. It does great things on deer, I took a hog around 200lb did not get pass through the bullet stoped on the off side leg bone after breakin it. I dont think eny one said it yet but you can load the 45-70 up to just under 458 win mag. I've done this and she kicks preaty good. I don't do this for hunting just wonted to try it once. My brother finaly started hunting about 4 years back now he used my gs and got his first deer a nice buck 8 point. He had to have the gun so I let him get me a CZ in 30-06. the CZ's are great guns but the not a Marlin 1895 GS. Itryed to hunt with it for the rest of the season but never felt good about it. I went to a gun show and a guy had one used I traded him even and never looked back. I have alot of rifles but that little 45-70 is my hunting gun.:lovebooli
http://http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/69/469/8/79/12/2425879120103526723OwqsBc_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2425879120103526723OwqsBc)

[JIMinPHX]

If you were going to reload with store bought jacketed bullets, then there would be a big difference, since the .44 bullets on the market are pretty much all pistol bullets that are designed to expand at pistol velocities & the bullets that are designed for the .45-70 are built specifically for it's use.

If you are going to cast your own, then I don't think that it makes that much difference. I think that a motivated caster could make either caliber work very well.

I don't load either of these calibers personally, so my recommendations are just those of an outsider, but that's what would seem to make sense to me.

[JesterGrin_1]

With all that has been said here I really can not add anything. Except as a few others have said my main hunting rifle is a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. As for bullet weight I have pretty much settled on the 350Gr Class of Bullets either of Cast or Jacketed.

Just two days ago I used my Marlin to take a small Hog of 250 pounds at 125 yards with a lower neck shot of which went through a shoulder took out the lower neck and the other shoulder and out. The Hog did not move a single foot from where it was. And I have to say in deep south Texas to not have to find something is a blessing :).
That was with a Cast Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP GC

And with the same round I have taken a few deer with up to around 145 yards.

But I have had great results also with the Hornady 350Gr J/RN as well.

I found the 350Gr class to shoot more accurate than any of the 300Gr class and the larger 400Gr plus bullets I just do not find that I need them. But down here there is only Deer and Hog and I have heard of Bear but have yet to see one. :)