changing barrels on a Savage 110

[223tenx]

I finally got my old barrel off-took a propane torch and a brass hammer on the nut wrench ( See thread titled WOOhOO) . Unscrewed the nut and action, cleaned the threads on the nut and new barrel and action and attempted to screw new barrel in the receiver. The barrel will go in about 3-4 turns and really gets hard to turn. After removing it, the threads look like the actions is cutting (for lack of a better word) the tops of the threads off. The first 2-3 threads are shiney bare metal, as opposed to the rest being blued. Ok, I'm a worry wart, but I don't want to gaul the threads in the receiver or on the new barrel. Is it because of the blueing being a slightly larger diameter or just new threads or??? I have some copper colloid anti-seize compound I could judiciously try on the threads to lube things a little. What say you guys that have done this before.

[1Shirt]

Have it done by a competent gunsmith!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[MtGun44]

Sounds like the replacement barrel isn't machined properly to fit your receiver.
You need to decide whether you send it back to the maker or do your own
fitting, which will no doubt cancel any warranty that you might have.

My Savage swaps back and forth between .30-06 and 7x57 with no problems,
screws in with easy hand pressure only.

Bill

[223tenx]

I called shaw and they said send it back and they would trace the threads on barrel and receiver at no charge (but I have to pay for shipping). I also know of a fellow locally that chambers and fits barrels and can chase the threads with a lathe. I can't talk to him until later on this evening. I think I'll wait and see how much he'll charge me and if it's less than shipping back to Shaw, I'll just have it done locally. I talked to his father and he said I should have gone to Douglas to start with. He said his son has had to re-do several barrels from Shaw. I'll know better next time.

[Bullshop]

Check the length of your scope base screws on the receiver ring. They may be extended past the inside of the ring and causing the problem.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Also check your front action screw to make sure it's not protruding too.

Like Mtgun44 said they should screw in by hand.

Joe

[dsmjon]

Did you buy a new BBL nut? They're CHEAP!

Jon, the asker of dumb questions, Smith.

[223tenx]

Action screw is out, removed front scope base before I started and I did not buy a new nut, but that's a moot point because the nut screwed on with no problem and so far the barrel isn't in far enough to touch the nut. The old barrel is actually a sloppy fit in the receiver until snugged up by the nut. Chris, at Shaw, said they've had a few that won't screw on without chasing the threads on the barrel and the receiver. I'll post the outcome.

[lead Foot]

Sounds like your Woo Hoo has turned into Boo Hoo. Replacing the barrel should be a walk in the park. There's nothing worse than receiving a product that dos'nt work.
Lead foot;

[dsmjon]

I think I got ya. The nut will go all the way on w/ the bbl removed, but won't with the bbl on the stock?

[scrapcan]

dsmjon,

I think you still have it wrong. It sounds like the barrel nut will screw ont eh barrel but the barrel will not screw into the action. Stock does not play into the discussion above, Barrel has not even been isntalled and headspaced if I read correctly.

[troy_mclure]

did you get a whole new bolt, or just head?

[Bad Water Bill]

To change Savage bbls you should have a bbl vice at a minimum. An action wrench also is worth the money. The first bbl change can be a bear. The nut should be screwed to the end of the threads and then the bbl screwed into the action and the head space set. Once that is done you screw the nut snug with the action locking everything in place. The bolt head change is also a simple thing. If the NEW bbl will not screw in with 2 fingers send it back as the mfgr goofed. They should reimburse you for the postage as it was their mistake. Today I shot one of my Savages with a Shilen bbl in 20 var/targ. Yesterday the rifle was a 308 but 15 min changed it over. The other Savage IS a 204 now. Yesterday it was a 223. The front scope screws can be to long and friction lock things up but since the old bbl has already been removed that is not a problem. The front action screw can also lock up the bolt BUT that will not happen till you are installing the action into the stock. I will not list all of the bbls that I swap as it would waste to much time but the bbl swaps should not take more than 10 to 15 min after the original bbl has been removed. By the way you should use a dead blow hammer and not a sledge hammer as the metal hammers bounce and you loose 1/2 to 3/4 of your impact force. Hope this helps.

[StarMetal]

Go here for all your questions:

http://www.switchbarrel.com/Savage%20FAQ.htm

Joe

[dsmjon]

I did, but I understand now. Need to lay off the medzzzzz... [smilie=b:


dsmjon,

I think you still have it wrong. It sounds like the barrel nut will screw ont eh barrel but the barrel will not screw into the action. Stock does not play into the discussion above, Barrel has not even been isntalled and headspaced if I read correctly.

[Bad Water Bill]

By the way Savage blues their guns after they are assembled so the threads that were screwed into the action will not be blued but shiny metal. I have never heard of anyone lubing the threads before screwing the bbl into the action.

[223tenx]

Troy,
Didn't have to change bolt or bolt head as the original barrel is 22-250 and the new barrel is 358 win. Both use the same bolt face.

BWB- Both barrels (even the Savage barrel) have blued threads.

[223tenx]

I'm going to take the barrel and action over to the fellow (mentioned earlier in post #4) Saturday morning and let him look at it. He has a very good reputation for the work he does. It seems all the local BR guys go to him. If he says it's ok, I'll post his name and address and phone.

[felix]

BR gunnies typically redo the threads in the action and the barrel when they do not match perfectly, like when not producing perfect friction from start to finish during turning. It will be interesting what he comes up with this particular gun. ... felix

[223tenx]

Shaw wanted me to send the barrel and action and bolt to them and they would fit it. Whatever happens, I want to be able to switch back to my 22-250 barrel, so I definetly don't want my action re-threaded-maybe chase the threads only. The smith told me he's had to fix several Shaw barrels and he no longer uses them. He told me he uses Lilja, Shilen, Douglas and A-B on occasion.

[223tenx]

Also found out that BR shooters typically don't use Savage actions because of being springy. I really wasn't expecting a sub-minute gun, but I wish it would go bang.

[StarMetal]

Shaw wanted me to send the barrel and action and bolt to them and they would fit it. Whatever happens, I want to be able to switch back to my 22-250 barrel, so I definetly don't want my action re-threaded-maybe chase the threads only. The smith told me he's had to fix several Shaw barrels and he no longer uses them. He told me he uses Lilja, Shilen, Douglas and A-B on occasion.

If you followed the one 6.5 Swede thread of lately, you will notice that 6.5x54MS I shot is a Savage 110. I put a Lothar Walther barrel on it and it screwed in the action just fine. According to the ser # that 110 was made before 92 so I'm impressed that LW got the threads right. I think the threads are wrong on your Shaw barrel. I wouldn't let the smith chase the action threads. After all your Savage barrels screws in and Savage mass produces both the action and barrels.

I don't believe you're shooting benchrest with this Savage so I wouldn't worry what the benchrest boys say about the action. Savage is still about the most accurate factory production rifle out there. I'm a firm believer it has lots to do with their barrel mounting method.

Joe

[MtGun44]

Another reason Savage's are accurate is the capability of the bolt head to rock slightly
on the bolt body. It is centered with a wavy washer. At a relatively low force level the
bolt can tilt so that both lugs are equally sharing the cartridge thrust loads, and putting
these loads symmetrically into the action. With a rigid bolt where one lug doesn't bear
on the action (VERY common) the heavy loads will bend the bolt to make the lug bear,
but this twists the whole action and moves the rear of the bolt sideways, adding another
weird and heavy load into the action at the moment of firing. None of this is good for
letting the barrel vibrate it's natural way off of a relatively stable base (the action). The
more strange and uneven loads ringing around in the action at firing, the more the back
end of the barrel is being jerked around just when you want it to be absolutely still.

This is a design feature (floating bolt head) that makes the rifle less expensive to manufacture
at the same time that it makes it work BETTER. Like the nut adjustable headspace so all
barrels are set to perfect headspace with very little labor time and no scrap from over cut
chambers, this is great engineering. Making the gun cost less AND be more accurate.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Another reason Savage's are accurate is the capability of the bolt head to rock slightly
on the bolt body. It is centered with a wavy washer. At a relatively low force level the
bolt can tilt so that both lugs are equally sharing the cartridge thrust loads, and putting
these loads symmetrically into the action. With a rigid bolt where one lug doesn't bear
on the action (VERY common) the heavy loads will bend the bolt to make the lug bear,
but this twists the whole action and moves the rear of the bolt sideways, adding another
weird and heavy load into the action at the moment of firing. None of this is good for
letting the barrel vibrate it's natural way off of a relatively stable base (the action). The
more strange and uneven loads ringing around in the action at firing, the more the back
end of the barrel is being jerked around just when you want it to be absolutely still.

This is a design feature (floating bolt head) that makes the rifle less expensive to manufacture
at the same time that it makes it work BETTER. Like the nut adjustable headspace so all
barrels are set to perfect headspace with very little labor time and no scrap from over cut
chambers, this is great engineering. Making the gun cost less AND be more accurate.

Bill

Bill, well we have these same two features on the AR's...barrel nut and floating bolt head. Might be why they are so darn accurate too.

Joe

[223tenx]

I agree about the Savage. I also have a 110 in 308 w/factory heavy barrel and it's a tack driver. I purchased it used in 1979. It had the stippled stock and wundhammer (sp?) palm swell. When I saw the 22-250 in a pawn shop, it had the same stock on it. That's what made me look at it-along with a 20x Simmons scope on it. $239

[MtGun44]

Starmetal,

I agree, altho the AR bolt can't move as much, it may not need to since there are
6 lugs and it can tilt a bit in the carrier, plus the carrier isn't a real tight fit in the
upper. One real biggy with the AR is that the gas tube is inconsequential as far
as mass and stiffness hung off the bbl, compared to a gas cylinder and piston and
oprod banging and clanging around on your barrel when you are trying to get it to flex
in exactly the same way each shot. I would expect the new 'gas piston' ARs to give up
some of the long range accy that the std HBARs show.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Starmetal,

I agree, altho the AR bolt can't move as much, it may not need to since there are
6 lugs and it can tilt a bit in the carrier, plus the carrier isn't a real tight fit in the
upper. One real biggy with the AR is that the gas tube is inconsequential as far
as mass and stiffness hung off the bbl, compared to a gas cylinder and piston and
oprod banging and clanging around on your barrel when you are trying to get it to flex
in exactly the same way each shot. I would expect the new 'gas piston' ARs to give up
some of the long range accy that the std HBARs show.

Bill

Bill, there are seven lugs on the AR15 bolt....and flex the bolts do. That's the reason why the two lugs adjacent the extractor crack or break.

Joe

[223tenx]

I got the barrel screwed in the action after cleaning up the threads and some break in rounds loaded up. I'll go tomorrow and see how it shoots.

[azrednek]

Shaw has a policy if you purchase one of their Savage replacement barrels they will install it free. The buyer though is responsible for shipping both ways. Watch Sportsman's Warehouse, they occasionally have sales on Shaw/Savage barrel kits for about $20 off. I picked up two a few years ago. Murphy had his way, after the barrels arrived the beater 110 I was going to buy sold. I sent a Shaw 458 Win barrel along with a cheapie Stevens 300 mag rifle to Shaw and it came back installed in a few weeks. I sold the wrench and headspace gauges that came in the Shaw barrel kit on Ebay and was only a few dollors short of covering the cost of the barrel. After selling the original Stevens barrel on Gun Broker I came out ahead. I still have a Shaw 338/06 barrel kit. Seems like there used to be plenty of beater 110's at gunshows and pawn shops but I haven't found one since I got the barrel.

[Bullshop]

Wanna sell/trade that 338/06 barrel?

[223tenx]

Loaded 10 rds,shot 5 rounds and got rained out on Sunday. Loaded 10 more (250 gr. SP and 39 gr 4064) and went back out this morning. It took 10 rds to get on paper at 100 yds- the50 yd range was occupied. It appears, even with cleaning after 1, 3, 5 , 10 rds that I've got a shooter. Last 5 rds was a little less than 2 " group. The scope is a Simmons 44 Mag. and it was sticking a bit while I was getting it sighted in. I'm hopeful that the accuracy will continue to improve, as I think a 2" group is ok after only 20 rds and there was no jacket fouling at all. I'm going to patch some 212 gr FP and try them next. I should have Swedes gb 245 gr. tomorrow or the next day to try also.

[Char-Gar]

Well, if it were mine I would not:

1. Not horse the barrel in
2. Not use any lube.


I would;

1. Put the barrel in a vise and using 220 or 320 grit emery cloth like a shoeshine rag, polish a couple of thousands off the top of those threads.

2. I would use a fine stone and deburr the side of the threads.

If that didn't do the job, I would;

1. Coat the threads with DY-Chem
2. Screw it back in easy and see where it is binding.
3. Polish and stone the places it binds,
4. Repeat, until I had a good but firm fit of barrel and actions.

The results would be;

1. I would of course voids Shaws warantee
2. I would also have a well fitted barrel and save the cost of shipping and have pride of having fixed it myself.
3. Yep it would take some time.

PS... I just noticed you clean up the threads and got it cooking. Good, that is what I would have done. I have a good double heat treated 03 action at Shaw's now being fitted with a 24" barrel (30-06).

[223tenx]

It seemed the threads had a rough or high spot and I didn't have the cajones to just go ahead and screw it on. The smith did and when it got past the spot it was free to turn without any undue force. Now it threads all the way very easily. I'm still going with Douglas if I decide to do it again.

[StarMetal]

Well, if it were mine I would not:

1. Not horse the barrel in
2. Not use any lube.


I would;

1. Put the barrel in a vise and using 220 or 320 grit emery cloth like a shoeshine rag, polish a couple of thousands off the top of those threads.

2. I would use a fine stone and deburr the side of the threads.

If that didn't do the job, I would;

1. Coat the threads with DY-Chem
2. Screw it back in easy and see where it is binding.
3. Polish and stone the places it binds,
4. Repeat, until I had a good but firm fit of barrel and actions.

The results would be;

1. I would of course voids Shaws warantee
2. I would also have a well fitted barrel and save the cost of shipping and have pride of having fixed it myself.
3. Yep it would take some time.

PS... I just noticed you clean up the threads and got it cooking. Good, that is what I would have done. I have a good double heat treated 03 action at Shaw's now being fitted with a 24" barrel (30-06).

Instead of your first three I would have just run the thread on a mild wire wheel.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

There you go Joe! Proof once again, you are the smartest guy on the block.

[StarMetal]

There you go Joe! Proof once again, you are the smartest guy on the block.


Come on Charger, a mild wire wheel will just clean up the burrs and things and not alter the threads. Your ideas are good if the barrel threads have more problems then what I wire wheel can take care of. I had bought an AR15 upper with a free float aluminum tube which came with a barrel nut. It appeared there was no way in the world that barrel nut was going on that receiver. I just merely gave the threads a light going over on the wire wheel and the nut fit perfect then. Don't forget the threads are anodized/coated and I didn't even remove any of that.

Nothing to do with being the smartest, which I am not.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

No Joe... You arre indeed the smartest. You just recognize your own superior throught pattern yet. I am certain in time, it will become evident to you.

[45 2.1]

No Joe... You arre indeed the smartest. You just recognize your own superior throught pattern yet. I am certain in time, it will become evident to you.

This isn't very Christian of you Charles. In fact its an attack. Shamefull behavior.

[Char-Gar]

No Bobby... Not an attack, just a little touch of sarcasm. There are a few folks who always have a better or more advanced way to do things that others. What ever anybody else say, they find some fault with it. Often time their ways are mysterious, unique and esoteric. But other times, their ways are just plain better. And..sometimes they really are better.

Is sarcasm non-christian or un-christian? Well, maybe so or maybe not, depending on well...just depending. But then again, those with superiod knowledge do get a bit tedious.

Those who aspire to the Illumanati or Cognscenti need to have thick skins, lest someone stick a a pin in them and let out the hot air.

[nicholst55]

It seemed the threads had a rough or high spot and I didn't have the cajones to just go ahead and screw it on. The smith did and when it got past the spot it was free to turn without any undue force. Now it threads all the way very easily. I'm still going with Douglas if I decide to do it again.

Don't overlook McGowen barrels. They changed hands a while back, and I guess the new owner/management are really making things happen. Their pre-fit Savage barrels are getting some excellent reviews.

[badgeredd]

Shaw wanted me to send the barrel and action and bolt to them and they would fit it. Whatever happens, I want to be able to switch back to my 22-250 barrel, so I definetly don't want my action re-threaded-maybe chase the threads only. The smith told me he's had to fix several Shaw barrels and he no longer uses them. He told me he uses Lilja, Shilen, Douglas and A-B on occasion.

It seems to me that you should take the Shaw barrel, the original barrel, and the receiver to the gunsmith. That way he can dress the Shaw to fit as the original and all will correctly and allow interchangeability. With the correct tools it shouldn't be a biggie to get the Shaw fit correctly.

I've never been able to afford a Lilja, but the quality of Shilen and Douglas barrel has always been great for me. I also know the machine work from both companies has been satisfactory to me. Shaw seems to have a spotty reputation, some say they're great and others say they're tomato stakes. Personally I would have to believe the barrels have to be at least adequate quality since they've been in business for many, many years. The machine work may be more variant. BUT...receivers DO vary so in their defense, more is better than less when we're talking about the steel remaining after threading.

Edd

[badgeredd]

Don't overlook McGowen barrels. They changed hands a while back, and I guess the new owner/management are really making things happen. Their pre-fit Savage barrels are getting some excellent reviews.

I plumb forgot about McGowen barrels. Knowing they had quality issue for a while< I guess I just chose to remove them from the memory bank (too little space there anyway!). :D Glad to hear their getting it together as I have used a couple of their barrels with success MANY years ago.

Edd

[waksupi]

Don't overlook McGowen barrels. They changed hands a while back, and I guess the new owner/management are really making things happen. Their pre-fit Savage barrels are getting some excellent reviews.

Yeah, they are making things happen alright. There was a full page story on them in our local paper. They recently overstated thier production outrageously. Made claims of having sold over 17,000 firearms last year, when they hadn't sold any. Funny thing is, the BATF also read the newspaper articles, and wondered just where all the paperwork and taxes were for that amount of firearms?
We tried several of thier barrels, and had a 50% reject rate.

[KCSO]

I was taught to fig galling or burred threads by coating them with lapping compound and screwing them into the receiver a little at a time and working them till they would go all the way home, then remove, clean and re install. I believe this is still the way they do it at Trinadad.

As to Shaw barrels, I have used a few over the years and as far as I can tell they are just as straight and well made as say, Adams and Bennet or any other inexpensive barrel. Galling threads happens occasionally and is not something I would consider a big problem. If I want interchangable barrels i am carefull to do the threading myself and try fit it in the receiver as i go fo a perfect fit.

[Shooter6br]

I read of a guy who used a Savage action to shoot and win a 1000 yrd benchrest match. Oh yes they shoot. I had people call them "Salvages" till they saw the groups.

[HORNET]

According to the match reports in "The Fouling Shot", Savages pretty much dominate Production Class in CBA competition. They have a fairly new competition action that has a left hand loading port and right hand ejection port that seems reasonably stiff and is intended for BR & long range matches. Reminds me of the old bridges people used to weld across the top of siderail Mausers for competition. Even available from the factory in 6 mm Norma BR.

[223tenx]

I'm satisfied with the way this one shoots. So far I've shot 250 gr. SP Jacketed, 212 FP cast. I just received Swede's 245 gr. GB boolit mold yesterday and haven't had time to cast any. The 212 gr. FP with LLA and some lubed with 50/50 b'swax/vaseline shot dead center @100yds with no leading @ 2000fps (41gr. of BL-C2). So I guess that says something about smoothness of the bore. I've shot about 40 total down the bore and I'm liking it more and more, although it does thump at both ends.