45/70 velocities for hunting

[crabo]

I am working up some loads for a 45/70 guide gun. I have 360 grain group buy and the 420 group buy molds. It seems like to me that either of these boolits at 1400-1600 fps should put the smackdown on some pigs.

There is a thread in CB loads about 45/70 accuracy and velocity. In another thread there is one on pigs and people are using the 44 Mag with 250 grain boolits and they are quite effective.

I have attached pictures of both boolits. I am thinking 100 yard or less, hunting because of the location.

So the question is, if I can find good accuracy within the 1400-1600 fps range, is there any need to try to push the boolit faster than that for hogs or deer?

Thanks,

[dk17hmr]

Nope.

There is enough weight behind those they should just glid through a deer. I have never shot a hog...other than on the farm...but I would think the upper end of what you say 1600fps would knock the bacon right out of them.

[Ron.D]

I can only relate one story regarding results with a 400 gr. boolit at 1380'/s on a black bear. It was a texas heart shot and the bullet was recovered in the neck muscle and bone, about 30" of penetration. Neck muscles will absorb a lot of energy because they're pretty sinewy, otherwise the boolit would have passed through that bear lengthwise. That 420 gr. boolit at 1500+ will kill any deer, hog or black bear with proper boolit placement. The meplat on the boolit pictured will do all you need. Ron.D

[danny.k]

I hunt hawgs with Ranch-dogs 360grainers(waterquenched weelweights,gaschecked+mulesnot).
A charge of 52grains of Norma 200 powder and cci 250 primers in Starline cases makes those boolits leave the muzzle at 2050f/s.
Gun is a Marlin 1895g.

The hawgs just DRT.
Biggest boar so far about 300pounds and complete passthru on all from every imaginable angle[smilie=w:.

/danny

[Lead Fred]

You might want to go vist Randy Garrett's 45-70 website.

He says anything over 1400 is a waste, and you lose penatraion. What the 45-70 is best at. 1200-1300 is prime for bigger bullets

[danny.k]

You might want to go vist Randy Garrett's 45-70 website.

He says anything over 1400 is a waste, and you lose penatraion. What the 45-70 is best at. 1200-1300 is prime for bigger bullets

It may be so but over here we`re not allowed to hunt big-game with bullets weighing +140grs if theyre not exeeding 2000joules off energy att 100meters, thats why i need the speed. The hawgs dont[smilie=p:.

[canuck4570]

shot a deer with this NIE bullet at 1100 fps
deer was facing me at 75 yards
went al the way trough it lengthwise
now I hunt with a 580 gr Paul Jones mold at 1150
it all you need I thing
as said above the 4570 is perfect with speed of 1100 to 1350 fps
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/458-440-GC.jpg

http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/45016.jpg

[canuck4570]

would like to know what 2000 joules would be in
foot pound of energie
thank's

[ph4570]

2000 j = 1475 foot pounds

[felix]

From now on, just say 3/4ths and be done with it. ... felix

[canuck4570]

well I guess you don't need to much speed with a 500 gr + bullet to reach that
thank's for the joules response

[Shooter6br]

To get a ideal of muzzel enery i use a simple formula------Velocity x velocity x bullet weight divided by 420 equels muzzle foot pounds use this number as a comparion to other rounds. My 45-70 at 1200 ft lbs at the muzzle has 1200ft pounds of energy( using a 350 g RD)..My 41 mag at 1350 fps with 210 g bullet has 920 or so.The 41 mag will take Deer and Black bear This is on paper of course but gives you some ideal to use as a comparison Just my 2 cents Rick

[canuck4570]

that sound OK
I try to compare also the knock down power which give you a good Idea of what you are able to hunt

[Ricochet]

The energy formula for FPS and bullet weight in grains, giving foot pounds, is bullet wt. x velocity squared /450400.

[Marlin Junky]

The energy formula for FPS and bullet weight in grains, giving foot pounds, is bullet wt. x velocity squared /450400.

Lyman defined the constant to be 450240 not 450400 but I don't remember how it was derived.

MJ

[BoolitBill]

I shot a 200 lb hog standing broadside with a 405 grain factory load (lead not jacketed) that I chronographed at 1300 fps. It went right through the pig, made mush out of it's lungs and the pig ran about 20 yards before dropping. Later in the hunt I shot a small buck (about 110 lbs. standing facing me and he dropped like a rock. I found out when gutting him that the bullet had hit his spine and stopped there between two vertebra. 1300 fps has been good enough for me ever since. Also, I am not a big fan of recoil and I can shoot 405/1300 all day long.

[Ricochet]

Lyman defined the constant to be 450240 not 450400 but I don't remember how it was derived.
I thought I'd remembered 450240, but when I Googled to check it I ran across a bunch of sites saying 450400. Pretty close, anyway. I'm not going to try to derive it.

[Frozone]

For those of you who are to lazy to reach for pencil and paper or punch the numbers into a machine. Or who can't remember the constant. Like me
I have prepared this:

http://home.gci.net/~liquidimagephoto/Other%20Free%20Stuff/EnergyCalc.zip PC only sorry.

Had a bad build - no libraries linked in. I fixed that.

[danny.k]

shot a deer with this NIE bullet at 1100 fps
deer was facing me at 75 yards
went al the way trough it lengthwise
now I hunt with a 580 gr Paul Jones mold at 1150
it all you need I thing
as said above the 4570 is perfect with speed of 1100 to 1350 fps
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/458-440-GC.jpg

http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/45016.jpg

I would really like to know the length between nose and crimpgrove on that NEI-boolit.? As cast boolit diameter?

/danny

[canuck4570]

I would really like to know the length between nose and crimpgrove on that NEI-boolit.? As cast boolit diameter?

/danny

Danny. K
from the top of the bullet to the top of the crimp groove .410
from the top of the bullet to the bottom of the crimp groove .470
the length of the bullet is with gaz check 1.170
the cast diameter from the mold is .462
the meplat of the bullet is .350
NEI say's 440 gr. but it cast with WW and gaz check 475
I am not certain but I think it's Felix who told me he had one and it feed's great in Marlin leaver gun and if it's not Felix some one did....

[danny.k]

Thank you so muchos !

[canuck4570]

welcome senior Danny. K

[Frozone]

Here is a simple energy calculator.

OOPS!!! Had a bad build - no libraries linked in. I fixed that.


http://home.gci.net/~liquidimagephoto/Other%20Free%20Stuff/EnergyCalc.zip PC only sorry.

[rob45]

I am working up some loads for a 45/70 guide gun. I have 360 grain group buy and the 420 group buy molds. It seems like to me that either of these boolits at 1400-1600 fps should put the smackdown on some pigs.

There is a thread in CB loads about 45/70 accuracy and velocity. In another thread there is one on pigs and people are using the 44 Mag with 250 grain boolits and they are quite effective.

I have attached pictures of both boolits. I am thinking 100 yard or less, hunting because of the location.

So the question is, if I can find good accuracy within the 1400-1600 fps range, is there any need to try to push the boolit faster than that for hogs or deer?

Thanks,

Lots of good responses on this thread. At least you're using the right caliber (45) and the right action (lever):D

I do not stay up on the latest publications such as magazines, etc. I just go on what works for me. I do try to keep abreast of the latest news in the gunshop, but I do realize some consider such info to be sometimes "outdated". With the exception of deer and small game, I have to travel to do a lot of my hunting, so I do try to get updated opinions from those who "see more than I do".

I guess it all boils down to which "power theory" you tend to favor. Folks who subscribe to "dumping energy" worry about speed and bullet expansion, while those who subscribe to penetration worry about bullet weight, and there are several ways to supposedly calculate all this. Taylor even took it a step further and said that bullet diameter was also a deciding factor, hence the TKO formula.

So let's compare some of the loads mentioned, even if it is just "on paper".
We'll calculate everything at the muzzle since we don't know ballistic coefficients of all the bullets involved, and BC is not enough of a factor to make a big difference at the distances involved. So let's keep it simple by keeping everything approximate.

The 44magnum load- 250gr@1400fps= 1087 lb/ft TKO 22
Your cast 360 360gr@1500fps= 1798 lb/ft TKO 35
Your cast 420 420gr@1500fps= 2097 lb/ft TKO 41
Remington's factory load 405gr@1320fps= 1566 lb/ft TKO 34
danny.k's load 360gr@2000fps= 3196 lb/ft TKO 47

I mention Remington's load because you mentioned deer. As far as factory rounds go, that load has probably dropped more deer than all the other manufacturers combined. In my experience, I do not consider it ideal for hogs because I have had penetration problems. I think it expands too much on the tough stuff, but then again that is probably why it's so good on deer. That is a subject of bullet integrity, not the load itself. But you don't have to worry about that since your casting a better bullet anyways. Nevertheless, it is a good baseline for "paper comparison."

I also mention danny.k's load because that represents the upper end of the spectrum of what is possible. Unfortunately he resides in one of those areas where the powers that be dictate a minimum energy standard, and I do not feel that fair to the heavy bullet crowd since velocity is king with the energy formula, thereby disregarding the need for penetration which is most easily acquired through bullet mass. Does his load work? I should say so, as I have used a 420gr@1800fps on a raking shot on a bull moose. The results were "spectacular". But is such a load needed? Probably not. The only reason I even carried such a load was because that was also bear country. But keep in mind that danny.k has to maintain a minimum energy standard to even be able to hunt, although that load is already considerably above the minimum, even at 100 meters. Gotta love the bureaucrats. (By the way, danny.k, I am not in any way knocking your place of residence. I just happen to disagree with such policy. I definitely "feel for you".)

What does all of this mean? Not a ^%&* thing. Even if you subscribe to every "killing power" theory out there, you will note that your proposed load of 360gr@1400-1600 is still considerably above your mentioned 44magnum standard. And it's right on par with the factory load, only with a better bullet for your intentions. I do not use the 44magnum; I like the 45 Colt and I use it quite successfully on hogs. And that is "supposed" to be less powerful than a hot 44 that is so popular. Obviously if I'm using a rifle I prefer a 45-70.

I think your idea of a load of (360gr@1400fps) is great. Shot placement is KING, and I am not a crack shot. So that means lots of practice, and either I am too old or too wimpy (probably both), but I just can't handle the fast/heavy stuff on a regular enough basis to stay good with it. I like shooting and hunting, not bruised shoulders. Yes, the power junkies state that you don't notice recoil while hunting, but I personally have to practice. Because of where I live, I have to spend $$ to travel just for hog hunting. I'm not going to waste that money because I can't do my part from lack of practice.

fwiw