Am I aiming for the Impossible? 358 Norma Magnum...

[AseVeli]

Hi all.

I have a nice Vintage 358 Norma Magnum rifle, a Custom job on a Springfield 03A3 receiver.

I'd like to Shoot Cast bullets in it for practice, but would like to keep the FPS in the same range as the Jacketed bullets I'd use for hunting.

Is this even remotely possible?

Were talking 250 gr + weight in the 2600-2800 FPS range here.

All opinions welcomed.

Thanks

AV

[Leftoverdj]

Probably not.

2200-2400 fps is quite possible, and more than enough for anything in North America.

[badgeredd]

AseVeli,

Welcome to the forum AND the small group of 358 Norma owners.

I've managed 2400 with a 230+ grain boolit out of my Lady Norma. Unfortunately I've lost the loading data, but I believe I used IMR 4350 and 4320 for powders and I remember the 4350 was more accurate. The boolits I aquired from a fellow member, GabbyM which are of his own design. I was able to get a decent 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" group at 100 yards with them. I want to try some real heavies in her but right now I am working on some hunting loads with cast boolits for another gun for the rapidly approaching deer season. One thing you may want to consider, is trying a heavier boolit in the 275-300 grain range.

Edd

P.S. Wiljen also has a 358 Norma and he's likely loaded more for it that I have for mine.

[AseVeli]

Probably not.

2200-2400 fps is quite possible, and more than enough for anything in North

America.

I would only use Cast for practice.

AV

[AseVeli]

AseVeli,

Welcome to the forum AND the small group of 358 Norma owners.

I've managed 2400 with a 230+ grain boolit out of my Lady Norma. Unfortunately I've lost the loading data, but I believe I used IMR 4350 and 4320 for powders and I remember the 4350 was more accurate. The boolits I aquired from a fellow member, GabbyM which are of his own design. I was able to get a decent 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" group at 100 yards with them. I want to try some real heavies in her but right now I am working on some hunting loads with cast boolits for another gun for the rapidly approaching deer season. One thing you may want to consider, is trying a heavier boolit in the 275-300 grain range.

Edd

P.S. Wiljen also has a 358 Norma and he's likely loaded more for it that I have for mine.

Thanks for the info :)

I have no problem to go to heavier weights, If I only could find molds or Precast Bullets that heavy in .35.

A 300 0r 325 at 2400 would be a hoot.

AV

[waksupi]

Keep in mind if you shoot game at too high of velocity with cast, it is going to do more damage than you care for.
I shot a deer with cast at 2450 fps.
Once.
Destroyed a quarter.
Veral recommended 2200fps and lower at striking range for hunting, and I do believe I agree.

[AseVeli]

Keep in mind if you shoot game at too high of velocity with cast, it is going to do more damage than you care for.
I shot a deer with cast at 2450 fps.
Once.
Destroyed a quarter.
Veral recommended 2200fps and lower at striking range for hunting, and I do believe I agree.

Again, I'd only use it for practice :)

AV

[GabbyM]

SwedeNelson has this group buy mold going.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61857

Copy of Lyman #358009 at 280 grain round nose.

[AseVeli]

SwedeNelson has this group buy mold going.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61857

Copy of Lyman #358009 at 280 grain round nose.

Thanks for the heads up Gabby.

I'd have to ponder on that for a bit :)

AV

[softpoint]

You could use a fairly hard alloy and paper patch. :Fire:

[yondering]

Were talking 250 gr + weight in the 2600-2800 FPS range here.



Yes, easily. The answer is to paper patch. The 358009 group buy mold would be a good choice. I'm using a Saeco 245gr, paper patched, in my 35 Whelen, at 2650 fps with no pressure signs, and no bore fouling. (Less cleaning work than shooting copper OR lead, how bout that!) Boolits are cast from air cooled wheel weights, patched at full diameter, then sized down to .359" when dry.

For load data, I'm starting at the low end of published data for jacketed bullets, and working up. In my Whelen, with my boolits, I've easily passed jacketed data max loads with no pressure signs. Your's may be different. You should easily be able to achieve the same ballistics, at lower pressure, with your larger case.

[Nrut]

yondering
I think your Saeco or the Lyman 358318 would be a better choice to PP than the 358009...The 358009 has parallel sides and would make a very long patched boolit perhaps putting the boolit base below the neck/shoulder area...The tapered noses on the Saeco and 358318 and lend themselves better to PP I would think...Anyway that's what I found with my 358009 mod. GB mold...I have short patched the 358009 (patched just the grease groove area) and they fit fine but I haven't tested them yet to see if they'll shoot with accuracy and with out leading...
I have a 358318 on order and hope it patches up with the base in the neck and the patched nose in the lands..If not I'll most likely get a Seaco like yours since you have had such good luck with it...
What are your thoughts on this?
Mic

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=145&pictureid=1255
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=145&pictureid=787

[Bret4207]

I'm a 35 Whelen man, but I have to agree with the guys about the paper patch. You shouldn't need a hard alloy either if the nose has some support from the lands.

My 35 Whelen puts the Lyman 358318 out nicely at a bit over 2100 with 4320 using WQ WW alloy. It groups nicely too.

[AseVeli]

Thanks all, you gave me a lot to think about.

I have a small beginner setup for casting (mostly Lee), and never patched a bullet in my life.

So I got to really weigh all this info seriously.

Again, Thanks all.

AV

[BABore]

Already designed for paper patch right here.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=663061#post663061

[looseprojectile]

Somewhat the same animal is the .375 H&H mag. that I shoot cast in.
My rifle is a #1 Ruger.
I just recently gave a friend that shoots a .35 Whelen a hundred Ranch Dog boolits and figure 1800 t0 2000 fps will do it. Those are the ones designed for the 35 Marlin.
I shoot a plain base 270 grain Lee at 1300 fps. in the .375 and don't feel under gunned except maybe a little distance challenged.
A man has to balance the velocity and alloy to not end up with an exploding varmint boolit at the speeds you are seeking. If I were loading the .358 Norma I would be looking for a 250 grain boolit at about 1600 fps. Would probably go all the way through two elk.
It seems you are looking for similar trajectory to jacketed rounds.
I have used the 190 grain RD boolits in the little .357 Magnum carbine and find them very useful for deer sized critters at short range. Any more velocity and meat destruction is counterproductive to me.
What makes this hobby so interesting is we can tailor our loads to our individual needs.
I'll bet you can shoot thirtyfive caliber boolits twentysix hundred feet per second.
My question would be, what are you gonna shoot? Practice with milder loads and enjoy the accuracy.

Life is good

[AseVeli]

I'll bet you can shoot thirtyfive caliber boolits twentysix hundred feet per second.
My question would be, what are you gonna shoot? Practice with milder loads and enjoy the accuracy.

Life is good

I want to match the recoil as close as possible to the J bullets.

I find that important when practicing quick follow up shots.

I'm not recoil shy, having hunted with various big bore rifles back in the old country(s) (Scandinavia).

Really just looking for an economical alternative to J bullets and still maintaining the "Feel". Also would like to not have to make too many sight adjustments between practice and hunting.

I'd be happy with "minute of paper plate" from a practice load, shooting standing up unsupported, with recoil to match my J bullet loads.

I tend to practice often, but in relatively short sessions (25-35 rounds).

AV

[yondering]

yondering
I think your Saeco or the Lyman 358318 would be a better choice to PP than the 358009...The 358009 has parallel sides and would make a very long patched boolit perhaps putting the boolit base below the neck/shoulder area...The tapered noses on the Saeco and 358318 and lend themselves better to PP I would think...Anyway that's what I found with my 358009 mod. GB mold...I have short patched the 358009 (patched just the grease groove area) and they fit fine but I haven't tested them yet to see if they'll shoot with accuracy and with out leading...
I have a 358318 on order and hope it patches up with the base in the neck and the patched nose in the lands..If not I'll most likely get a Seaco like yours since you have had such good luck with it...
What are your thoughts on this?
Mic



Mic, you may be right on the 358009 paper patched. I don't think that having the base below the neck/shoulder junction will matter as much with paper patched boolits, especially if it is a hard boolit, but I agree that deep seating is not ideal.

I've only patched a few of the 358009 boolits someone sent me from another forum long ago, and can't remember how they performed. On the Saeco (#352 I think?) boolit, I'm patching approximately one caliber ahead of the front driving band, where the nose ogive begins. This seems to work well in my rifle for a normal seating depth with the paper touching the rifling.


AV, I think your approach makes sense, for what you want to do. Paper patching is worth a try, since you would have a very hard time matching jacketed ballistics with a normal lubed boolit. There's lots of opinions on how to do it; I prefer to make it as easy/simple as possible. If you want, you can send me dimensions of your boolits you want to patch, and I'll email you a paper patch template, which you can print out on regular notebook paper, cut along the lines with a paper cutter, and get to patchin'. I've been using these templates for my patching; it sure makes it easy and more repeatable. It's a MS Word document, so I can't send it to you via PM.

In the quantities you are talking about for practice, paper patching would work great. I usually only patch 20-30 at a time, because I just don't usually shoot more than that in one session. It takes me about 15-30 seconds to patch each boolit.

You should be able to duplicate recoil and ballistics of your factory load with a paper patched boolit. Your point of impact may be different, but you should be able to get good accuracy. I also still hunt with jacketed (225gr Nosler Partitions) in my Whelen but use the paper patched stuff for practice. You also should be able to tailor boolit hardness and alloy to match the velocity, if you want to hunt with them.

[yondering]

Already designed for paper patch right here.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=663061#post663061

Looks like it's a good boolit, although not full bore size. I know some like to patch up; I prefer to patch a full bore size boolit, and size down. This compresses the patch and makes it very hard and durable, and as Zeek points out in another thread, probably better able to grip the rifling. Unsized patched boolits always seemed too delicate for me.

[Marlin Junky]

You might be able to reproduce factory ballistics with a grooved/lubed bullet but your success depends mostly on your barrel configuration. If you have a 14 to 16 inch twist with a land/groove configuration that'll grip the bullet securely then it might be possible with the right heat treated alloy and high speed/high pressure lube. In other words, everything needs to be "working like a well oiled machine", so to speak. After all that effort, you may decide a hollow-pointed, heat treated cast boolit may be an effective alternative to your jacketed selection for hunting. Or, as others have indicated, forget about the jacketed bullet and learn how to paper patch. I know from personal experience that the Whelen will shoot as accurately at 2500 fps with a patched chuck of 50/50 (clip-on WW metal/plumbers lead) metal than it will with a 250 grain Speer.

MJ

[AseVeli]

Again, thanks for all your help to a newbie.

My head is spinning a bit taking it all in, but Im grateful.

AV

[yondering]

yondering
I think your Saeco or the Lyman 358318 would be a better choice to PP than the 358009...The 358009 has parallel sides and would make a very long patched boolit perhaps putting the boolit base below the neck/shoulder area...The tapered noses on the Saeco and 358318 and lend themselves better to PP I would think...Anyway that's what I found with my 358009 mod. GB mold...I have short patched the 358009 (patched just the grease groove area) and they fit fine but I haven't tested them yet to see if they'll shoot with accuracy and with out leading...
I have a 358318 on order and hope it patches up with the base in the neck and the patched nose in the lands..If not I'll most likely get a Seaco like yours since you have had such good luck with it...
What are your thoughts on this?
Mic


Mic, you got me curious so I did some experimenting. Posted results in a new thread, here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=666900#post666900