38 short?

[kyle623]

I'm looking at trading for an h&r top break. my cousin says it's a 38 short but all i can find on reloading data is 38 smith and wesson. is this the same thing and is theyre any other cartridge i can trim down to use in it?

[AJ Peacock]

I looked in my old reloading books and I think you are right, that it is a 38S&W. In the old Speer book, it says the 38S&W was known by a bunch of different names. It listed several names, but didn't list it as a 38 short. It did say NOT to cut down 38 special brass for it, as it will likely split (the 38S&W has a diameter of .380, the 38spcl brass has a diameter of .379). I don't have any experience with them, just thought the info from my books might help you a little.

AJ

[Rocky Raab]

While there were rounds known as "38 Short" made by both Colt and S&W, it is PROBABLE that the revolver in question is chambered in .38 S&W - an entirely different round than either of the "Shorts." But prudence would dictate that a prospective buyer would measure a chamber cast to be absolutely sure.

The flip side is that most of those top-break guns are too weak to be fired, no matter what. So the issue might be moot. You'd be buying a really interesting paperweight.

[kyle623]

this one has had a box of ammo shot through it recently, but he didnt keep the box so i cant say for sure. the top of the barrel just says 38 cal. on the side of the bbl it says 38 76 3 tons. in front of the hinge on the right side it appears to hve MP stamped. a .358 sized boolit is a nice snug fit in the chamber. I can take piucs if that will help. thanks guys. the gun does seem in good shape so i would like to be able to shoot it.

[Rocky Raab]

Unless I'm way off base, that "3 tons" means that the gun in question is only proofed to withstand 6,000 psi. That's the proof load! WORKING loads should probably be held to no more than 4,000 psi - if the gun is in like new condition.

I doubt you could even load rounds with smokeless powder that stayed under that low a limit.

[richbug]

My experience with guns marked "38 short" or "38 long" has been that they were chambered/bored for the Colt round that uses heeled .375" bullets.

[kyle623]

this gun doesnt say short or long though, just 38 cal. a sized .358 fit the end of the chamber just right. I havent slugged the bbl yet though

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Here's a link to a list of H&R pistols:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/EveryGun/GunMfgCategoryDetail.aspx?id=2046
Looks like all the .38's were .38 S&W.

Don't think I'd be interested in shooting a top-break revolver, even in that weak cartridge.

They're not worth very much.

[kyle623]

thats what ive been finding. havent found one yet that said 38 short or long.

[Treeman]

Rocky, FWIW-A proof marked in tons MIGHT be proofed using the old Brit method and thus be suited to somewhat higher pressure if measured with the American method. (If it were written as "tonnes" I'd recant the "might".)

[kyle623]

there's a pic of it in my profile

[9.3X62AL]

The most common method of telling the difference IN MOST CASES between 38 Short Colt and 38 S&W is the presence of a chamber step in cylinders meant for the 38 S&W.

Another clue is the stamped '.76"' you gave, which corresponds to the case length of the 38 S&W caliber; the 380 Revolver or 38 Short Colt shows a case length of .70", and in heeled-bullet/outside lubricated cartridges the case length isn't critical--the chamber is drilled straight through, so stamping the case length on the revolver would be superfluous. With heeled-bullet cartridges......if it fits, it ships--just like a USPS Flat Rate Box.

Another mention of the 38 Special/38 S&W case diameter difference--38 Special and 357 Magnum run .379", 38 S&W runs .386"-.387". ENTIRELY apples and oranges. Boolits are usually fatter, too.

ETA--OK, just checked the pic. I shoulda known from the proof marks (6 tons, .76) that it was a Webley top-break, not an H&R. My Webley has very similar markings. These are an ENTIRELY different animal from the H&R top-breaks, and MUCH stronger than the usual run of top-break revolvers. It is almost certainly a 38 S&W, and can withstand stout loads.....indeed, was designed for such loads. A 178-200 grain bullet at 675-725 FPS was the usual service load in these revolvers.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

It does have certain elements of the Webley Mark xx designs. Photos on this page:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg91-e.htm
Here too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Webley-Mk-IV-p1030100.jpg
Webley pocket pistol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Webleypocket.jpg
Another:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Webley_Military_Mark_IV_1793.jpg
Here's an Enfield No. 2; it looks closer than anything I've seen yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Revolver_Enfield_No2_Mk_I.jpg
More Enfield No. 2 Mk I's:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg92-e.htm

Yes! It's an Enfield No. 2 Mk I*. Check out this photo:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/630241/the_enfield_no_2_mk_1_38_caliber_revolver.html?ima ge=230209&cat=9

As far as I can tell with the limitations of my eyesight, monitor, and the quality of the images, they're a dang close match.

It's double-action only; no hammer spur. Introduced 1938, production ended 1955.

Externally, the Webleys and Enfields appear pretty similar, but they're completely different internally.

I personally wouldn't be interested in an H&R, but this Enfield would be worth something.

Just don't shoot it very much (if at all), because they haven't been made in quite a while.
Here's one with a 2" barrel listed on Gunbroker:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139960439

[eta]
Numrich does stock some parts for the Enfield No. 2 Mk I:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=1370zNO2%20MKI&idDept=69
You might find that schematic handy.

[kyle623]

ok, its an enfield. what caliber does it shoot? 38 sw or 38 short, or something else? and it does have the step in the cylinder a 9mm makarov case fits just right in the cylinder as far as case width which is close to the 38 sw case width.

[bob208]

they made alot of .38.

.38 short colt along as a .38 s&w but with a .357 bore. they both can be fired in .38-.357 guns.
.38 long colt about .100 shorter then a spl. 357 bore. that was the one that failed to be a stopper and the .45 acp came about.
.38 s&w bigger bore .380 the colt load was the .38 new police.

the .38 colt conversion was loaded wit a heal bullet it could also be rim or certer fire.

[bob208]

if it an enfield then it would shoot the .38 s&w or the .38 colt new police.

or the british term .38-200

[kyle623]

a .358 boolit is a snug fit in the end of the chamder. would the MP stamp by the hinge on the right side tell me anything? I dont think a .361 boolit will go throught the cylinder end without force, but i dont have one to try.

[kyle623]

ok everything I've found tells me its a 38 sw. so i guess it will shoot or I'll be having a gun sale , or my wife will be, lol. and y'all can call me stumpy after that.

[smkummer]

The Lyman 45 edition recommended just using starting loads for top break guns such as the H and R. Now they have withdrawn the recommendation. Your call. If it were myself and it appeared to lock shut, I would probably fire it. We have been shooting an old Smith top break in 32 s&w (not long). It is truely a mouse gun in that cartridge. You gun is almost certainly chambered in 38 s&w. I don't know if H&R ever made a gun with a cylinder long enough to chamber the 38 special.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Actually, Lyman 45 edition said:
"The loads listed are intended for solid frame revolvers which are in good condition."

The Webleys and Enfields were originally made to fire British .38-200; a 200-gr bullet moving at around 600fps. Those rounds had highly corrosive primers, and the stocks of them ran out in the early 1960s.

From what little I've found out so far, it seems that many of the Webley and Enfield .38-200 pistols had their cylinders reamed/lapped to accept the .38 S&W cartridge.

Since you're serious about shooting the pistol, I suggest that you take it to a gunsmith, and have them examine it to ensure that the cylinders are within specifications and that it will be safe to fire.

Locating ammunition is going to be problematic. There's so much demand for other calibers like 9mm, 40S&W, etc. that the "niche" calibers like .38 S&W aren't getting much attention from the manufacturers.

If you try making .38 S&W brass from .38 Special, they'll split when you fire them, resulting in no accuracy, and possibly damaging the cylinder.

This is the only place I can find .38 S&W ammo in stock right now:
http://shop.reedsammo.com/product.sc?productId=1757&categoryId=168
It does not say what brand.

[Nora]

I've got the same revolver. It it an Enfield No2 Mk1. The British service load was called the 380/200. A standard 38 S&W with a 200 gr boolit. In the US this was refereed to as the .38 S&W Super Police. They called the standard 38 S&W load a .380 Rim. Star seems to be the only one offering brass for it. http://www.gunaccessories.com/StarLine/index.asp http://www.grafs.com/metallic/521 I'm holding out for Graf's to get some more in.

Nora

[9.3X62AL]

Kyle, I use Starline brass in 38 S&W caliber in my Webley-Enfield DAO revolver and in a S&W M&P revolver chambered for the same cartridge. A 9mm Makarov sizer does a great job of resizing, and the Mak expander die works well too. Both the W/E and the S&W have .362"-.363" throats, and I size boolits to that diameter for them. Lyman has that sizer die as a regular-stock item. The boolit mould is from NEI, a 200 grain roundnose with long nose and short drive band section to fit the short case. Fact is, the cases are .775" long, and the boolits are .810" long. They shoot rather well, and jack up jackrabbits in smart fashion. Fun guns in a funky but entirely serviceable caliber, once the dimensional poetry gets figured out.

[kyle623]

should i use stick ww's or clipons to cast? I've seem that some guys say pure lead for this round. are clipons too hard?

[NickSS]

The enfiled revolver is a fine pistol that the Brits used as a service pistol through WWII and KOREA. The cartridge it shoots is basically the 38S&W round loaded with a 200 gr bullet. I have one and use it frequently mostly shooting 158gr RNF cast bullets. My loads clock in at 725 fps and are reasonably accurate. I size my bullets to .360 when I load for that cartridge.

[kyle623]

now i just need brass, and dies.

[miltfarrow]

Have bought a very tight lockup Iver Johnson .38S&W top break revolver. Can I shoot it with weak smokeless loads? I've read 'yes' and I've read 'no' so far. thanks.

[Mk42gunner]

Milt,

It really depends on when the gun was made. Is it an antique that was meant for BP only? Or is it one of the ones that were made for smokless?

If you do a search on "top break revolver" some interresting threads with links to identify your gun should come up.

Robert

[miltfarrow]

thanks Robert. Will check further. I'm willing to shoot it, occasionally, with BP if necessary, but smokeless is a lot easier party to clean up after.