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krag35
09-11-2009, 12:51 AM
I recently got a GreeN Mtn. slow twist 45 cal bbl for my T/C Renegade. After the fits I have had with my Traditions (1:48) 45 cal. I thought i might not hate muzzleloaders quite so much. Well that didn't work.

First off, I can shoot, I'm not Annie Oakley, or dead eye dick, but I can pretty much ( off of bags) shoot 6" groups out of my Redhawk @ 100yds with cast boolits. My 444, 30-40, 30-30 and cast (with a peep) holds 4" or a bit better at the same distance. I know others here can do much better than that, but those guns and that level of accuracy have kept me and mine in venison and Elk meat for quite a few years now.

I tried my Renagade with the 58 cal bbl and Lee REAL bullets first. Cast out fo pure ( well as pure hospital shielding lead is) Thse pretty much fall to the bottom of the bbl. They cast .580 -.582 an better than half go thru the target sideways at 25 yads. At least I can catch them at 25 yds on a 4' X4' target (minor victory) I read the post on casting WW for Muzzle loader bullets and cast some out of ACWW. I weighed them and culled any that varied more than 1 Grain. They came out .592 on the front band and .585 on the rear. Holey Moley, at 50 yds they actually stayed on the 8X11 target. I started at 90 Gr and went up to 120 gr 5 shot groups cleaning between strings. Powder charge made NO difference in group size only in POI. Well maybe thought I I could try it at 100 yds ( I shouldn't think to much) I cought at at least 3 of the 5 on all 4 strings on that 4X4 backer board. I'm thinking this bbl has a future as a tomato stake.

I next tried the Traditions 45 cal. I have posted on here about before. I thought the bbl was bent, and bent it the other way untill you could actually see the bend in the bbl and it still shot off to the side. I cut 4" off the muzzle and recrowned and that took care of the problem i was having with windage with it. First group today was with a .437 ACWW RB 70 gr and .020 ticking. 3 into 3" @ 50 yds. I swabbed the bbl, set it aside for a bit while I shot the 58 to cool. Loaded the EXACT same load in it shot the EXact same target with it and it sent 3 into 8" a foot below the target and 6" to the right. I swabbed and let it cool again (10 min?) EXACTLY the same load as both srings before and this time it was 18" high and 8-10" off to the left. I am giving up on this rifle AGAIN.

I have shot the 45 cal green mtn bbl only once before. I started at 50 gr with a .437 ACWWRB, .020 patch and shot 3 strings of 3 shots ( swabbing between strings) and worked my way up to 90 grains. It liked the 90 grain load best (1 1/2") at 50 yds. BUT that was last time. Today I started with the 90 grain load and it was about a 4" group at 50 yds. I shot the whole string ( 3 - 3shot groups) over again. It liked 50 gr the best, 1 1/2" group. I set it aside, shot my Redhawk and 22 pistol for a while and then tried one more group before I left, 2 shots touching and one 6" above those about 5" off to the right. I'm supposed to take it hunting this year, I hope a deer will stand still long enough for me to sight in my rifle on him, because I'm sure it won't be shooting where it was when I sighted it in. Maybe I could get a bayonet lug welded on it, Steel always works if sharp and pushed hard enough.

It's late, I'm tired and it wasn't a good day at the range. I did pick up about 40 once fired Rem 30-06 brass and a double handfull fo 45 brass though, so I guess it wasn't all that bad.

saz
09-11-2009, 02:33 AM
When you are shooting PRB's what do your fired patches look like? It sounds like an issue a friend of mine had with a new Green mountain Barrel. The rifling was so sharp that it was cutting patches on the way down the barrel. After a good firelapping, accuracy was outstanding on his .58 with prb's. He hasnt fired any conicals though.

Also, have you tried an over powder felt wad? When I am shooting big conicals in my .58 especially, groups significantly tighten up with a felt wad. Just my 2 cents.

405
09-11-2009, 09:24 AM
It happens. No reason the Green Mtn. won't shoot. What saz sez makes a lot of sense. For the new barrel 45, try firelapping. Or even regular lapping with a muzzle guide and lots of elbow grease. Then maybe try pure lead ball with .016 pillow ticking and about 50-60 gr BP. Clean between shots. Then beg, borrow or steal a handful of .440" balls and try again. It will work sooner or later but a string of poor groups will test the patience in all of us.

Geraldo
09-11-2009, 09:27 AM
I shoot .40, .45, and .58 GM barrels and the accuracy with all of them is excellent. They do seem to like a very tight patch/ball combo. This is the patch ball combo mine like:

.40-.395RB+.018" patch
.58-.575RB+.018" patch

I've been using .440 RB and .018" in the fast twist .45 and over 50gr 3F the results have been great.

That said, I fire all my groups swabbing between shots, not strings, so I wonder if fouling is the issue.

725
09-11-2009, 09:37 AM
I'll throw in here, too:

Inspect the patches. They will tell alot. Try various thicknesses and try different lubes. If need be, hand lap the barrel to remove snags and sharp edges. Heck, I'd hand lap it anyway to make it smoother and easier to load & clean.

Try a group using Wonder Wads. Heavy felt / lubed patches over the powder. Has made signiicant differences in some.

In your .45, try a .440 ball and/or a .445 ball. The .437 might be a tad small. Again with various patch combinations. I bet with a slightly larger ball you'll hit on a good receipe. A good form fitting ramrod end and consistant loading techniques should bring some consistancy. Just set the ball in the chamber and don't beat it out of round too much with hard ramming. Please don't be offended if I've sounded like a know it all. Not my intension. Just a few thoughts to help your group shrink.

R.M.
09-11-2009, 09:38 AM
I would try going back to the old reliable pure round ball. I've never had any luck with WW or Lee REALs. As has been mentioned, patches and lube can make a huge difference too. There are so many variables, and just one of them could be the culprit. Keep at it, I'm sure you'll find the magic combination that'll make you :bigsmyl2:

jim4065
09-11-2009, 11:19 AM
Since it hasn't been mentioned (or I missed it.....)

Have you checked that after you clean the barrel it is bedded in exactly the same way? I had a .45 that drove me nuts with gross changes in impact til I realized that the hooked breech was shifting slightly when it was reassembled after cleaning. The breech plug hook was almost 1/8 " narrower than the hole in the part that stays on the stock. The wedge was holding it down in front, but general slop in the barrel channel let the rear shift around. Traded it away to a guy who thought he could fix it.....

hamour
09-11-2009, 12:05 PM
Krag35 have you tried talking to the guys at the Muzzleloading forum? They have forgotten more than most people will ever know about roundball shooting.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php

I have the .58 slow twist GM bbl on a Renegade and a Hawken TC. Both shoot way better than me. They both shoot better with large hunting loads 100 to 140 grs 2f KIK powder. I also put a lubed felt wad over the powder.

Check out the guys at MF maybe they can help you.

northmn
09-11-2009, 03:46 PM
If I read correctly you are using a 437 RB. A Green Mountain barrel will typically do best with a 445 RB, pure lead. But some swaged and try them, with a 015 patch. A good hunting load in a 45 is generally 60-70 grains of 3f. I also had a similar experience with a bad batch of Pyrodex in my 50 cal. 3f BP shot best. some of the phoney powders do not work as well in some guns.

Northmn

1874Sharps
09-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Northmn brings up a good point about Pyrodex (and maybe some of the other substitutes). When I was in Spokane, WA for a couple of years taking care of my elderly mom I joined the local gun club. There was a mountain man subculture there where I learned the ways of the Holy Black (although I certainly am no expert on it or probably anything else). One thing I was told and then later experienced was that Pyrodex has a shelf life and will lose its potency over time. Accuracy degrades as well when this happens. Just so you all know, I am not bashing the BP substitutes. Black powder has no shelf life. If you like 'em and they work for you then that is just great and I congratulate you for your success.

A tight fitting patch is most important for accuracy with a ball in a muzzleloader. Good advice is given above in other posts on this subject. I am convinced that with a bit more experimentation you will have success with the rifle(s) you have!

mooman76
09-11-2009, 06:43 PM
What the other guy have said made since. A few more questions. What twist is the 58? Sounds like it may be too slow for REALS. Another thing is you are starting out with heavy loads. Try backing down some on the powder and new barrels do have a breakin period.

northmn
09-12-2009, 09:21 AM
I have had sights that are a touch loose do that also. They move when shooting. They may not push easily but do move. Unlikely but it can happen. another thing that will cause wild shooting in a BP firearm is petroleum based lube. I ahd a 45-70 that shot real wild until I got the lube down. It would foul out in the last 10 inches of barrel and get harder as it sat. With a good patch lube and reasonable patch ball fit I can shoot into 4-5 inches all day with any of my RB rifles at 100 yards in a reasonable wind. With a little tuning I can do better. If I could see the sights I could do better yet.

Northmn

canyon-ghost
09-12-2009, 01:04 PM
I don't know a lot about black powder that's for sure. I use all smokeless in these hunting pistols. Can tell you this- the best information you'll find is likely going to come from the Cast Bullet Association website. If your bullets fall to the bottom of the barrel, that sounds like they are undersize, provided that they aren't patched. Pistol in the picture-7mmTCU that did just what you described until I changed bullet molds from an RCBS bore ride to a Lyman 135 grain. The difference was immediate!
I'm going to leave it there, the other guys at Cast Bullet know more than I do about patched, blackpowder, etc. I don't know the velocity of what you shoot but, if you push it too fast, the rifling cuts one side of the bullet more. I'm still pulling 9mms because I got 'em too hot. Been on the range for 10 years and had my share of bad days lately. Just don't throw the gun or use it for a club, neither solves the problem (then again, there are days when....).:oops:

krag35
09-13-2009, 05:23 PM
sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this.


I am ordering Lee .440 and .445 bullet molds (if one of those sizes works, I'll order a steel mold) and a Wheeler bore lapping kit. If they hadn't been out of stock on the GM 58cal rb barrel (and the wife would have been out of the room) I'd have added one of those too.


Moonman76; the 58 is a T/C renagade bbl 1:48 twist with the QLA ( I'm still not convinced that isn't the culprit)

I joined the muzzleloading forum, waiting for my registration email


northmn; Both have T/C peepsights on them. they are tight, but there is considerable "slop" in the windage adjustment. I have learned that changing the apature size considerably effects POI. The lube I am using is 50% crisco 30% beeswax and 20% olive oil.

the 58 bbl will shoot .575 RB with a .015 patch, but I have broken 3 short starters getting this combo down the bbl.

I am assuming that to fire lap, I smear some of the compound on a patch, load it and fire it. how many shots of each (220 grit 320 grit 600 grit ) 'wheeler recomends 5 / 220 5/ 320 10 / 600, sound about right?

I'll post any updates.

R.M.
09-13-2009, 06:34 PM
The QLA barrels have a reputation for being spotty. TC has a "Lifetime" warranty, no matter who bought it, so if it were me, I'd send it back to TC, and get a regular barrel.

canyon-ghost
09-13-2009, 08:28 PM
I am assuming that to fire lap, I smear some of the compound on a patch, load it and fire it. how many shots of each (220 grit 320 grit 600 grit ) 'wheeler recomends 5 / 220 5/ 320 10 / 600, sound about right?


Sounds like a lot to me, I have the two coarser grades in a scope ring lapping kit. Wait until you put it between your thumb and forefinger, it's coarse. The 600 grit would be good, I use 500 grit on a patch and cleaning rod to polish with. Somewhere, somebody mentioned that the harder you push on an abrasive the faster it polishes- that's a good thought. If it's a blue steel barrel, I'd err on the side of caution, can't put metal back. If it's stainless, it will take more to lap it.

Me, personally, I'd take it shot to shot, clean in between shots. Then, if it seems just right along the way, run the last shot of 600 grit through it. I think I'd skip 220, two shots of 320 and a couple of shot with 600 but, I don't firelap. Might be better off asking someone who has. A lot of rifle shooters do it.
Veral Smith at LBT sells firelapping kits for competition, might be able to help- http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml

mooman76
09-13-2009, 11:32 PM
Like Canyon-ghost said you can't put metal back. keep in mind BP barrels typically are of softer steel that smokeless so the metal will wear quicker. Personally I would try hand lapping first and see where that goes. If you're breaking your starters then it's too tight, I'd try a thinner patch. Hope it works out.