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bmblong
04-13-2006, 09:34 AM
I am loading .357 and .44 magnums. I am using Lee 158 and 240 gr tumble lube bullets. The bullet makeup is 50/50 wheelweights and range lead waterquenched. Lube is well tumble lubed with liquid alox. I have been loading them with starting loads of HS6 going at about 950fps. Anything more than that starts leading at the first inch or so of the barrel (rifle or handgun). The question is, would it be worth trying to use a slower burning powder such as H110 or Lil'Gun at higher velocities?

Bass Ackward
04-13-2006, 12:25 PM
Bruce,

I .... assume that your bullets are PB. And you mention nothing about how you are sizing. LQA is not a slipery lube and can limit over all velocity potential too. So you have a lot of testing ahead of you.

Generally, anytime you can cut pressure on the base and still maintain good ignition, you improve accurate velocity possibilities. But maintaining ignition is the key. And the problem is that as you go to a slower peaking powder, you actually increase pressure at the muzzle of your gun. Higher pressure that breaks unevenly can deform a PB upon exit from the muzzle. If your crown is suspect, then faster powders will likely yield the best accuracy at closer ranges (25 yards) and you simply have to accept the velocity you get. (Some fast powder loads shoot very well at 25 only to miss paper totally at 50)

There are a plethura of powders inbetween the ones that you mention. Don't over look Blue Dot to 2400 range as this is where I operate most often because I am interested in medium ranges. A lot of guys like WC 820 here which is more commonly AA#9 these days if you want to shoot cheap ....er. :grin:

lovedogs
04-13-2006, 10:42 PM
Bruce,

Usually, leading at the rear of the bbl. is either a sign of :
1. Too small bullet diameter.... you get gas slipping by and melting lead.
2. Poor lube and/or wrong alloy for velocity you're shooting.

S.R.Custom
04-13-2006, 11:51 PM
I've found Blue Dot, No. 9, 110, and 296 to be too hot --as in burn temperature-- for fast lead bullet loads in the revolver magnums. H4227 and 2400 are much more lead bullet friendly. And for mid-pressure "utility" loads, Herco works really well too.

felix
04-14-2006, 12:43 AM
The single base powders will burn cooler because they have a lower energy content. Your list has only one, and that is 4227. I am suggesting that 2400 won't be any cooler burning than the others listed, except for 4227s, at the same peak pressure generated. ... felix

Dale53
04-14-2006, 12:54 AM
I have been using WC 820 in the .44 magnum for years at 1200-1300 fps (240-310 gr bullets both plain base and gas checked) without a bit of trouble. 820 also works well in .32 H&R Mag and .357 mag.

My favorite load in my .32/.357 Dell Schuetzen rifle, is guess what? WC 820. I drive that at 1500 fps plain base with precision accuracy.

Magnum pistol alloys range from 5/1-8/1 ww/lino while the Schuetzen rifle (breech seated) is 25/1 lead/tin.

Dale53

S.R.Custom
04-14-2006, 01:22 AM
The single base powders will burn cooler because they have a lower energy content. Your list has only one, and that is 4227. I am suggesting that 2400 won't be any cooler burning than the others listed, except for 4227s, at the same peak pressure generated. ... felix

Perhaps it has something to do with the mixture proportions in the double base 2400. In any event, I find 2400 presents less of a leading (and resulting inaccuracy) problem than the other "hotter" double base powders. (2400 does not cut top straps as quickly as 296 or 110, and at less than full power loadings, it doesn't do it at all.) But go to a 300 grain or heavier PB bullet over a stiff powder charge, and even 2400 starts to make a mess.

FWIW, with PB boolits in the .445 SuperMag, H4227 was the ONLY powder to give satisfactory results...

Bass Ackward
04-14-2006, 06:46 AM
But go to a 300 grain or heavier PB bullet over a stiff powder charge, and even 2400 starts to make a mess.

FWIW, with PB boolits in the .445 SuperMag, H4227 was the ONLY powder to give satisfactory results...


Dale,

Elmer was always criticized for missing the boat when he said that there is no purpose for heavier bullets in the 44 Mag than 280 grains. Remember, he was a PB fan believing that GCs did not belong on a handgun bullet. And his powder choices pretty much stopped at 2400 in his day.

Since the effects of pressure are accumulative on a bullets base, I suspect that there is a "practical" weight limit to a plain base bullet design in every caliber. The heavier you go from "that weight", the less powder selection choices you have for producing velocity without leading. Another way to say it, the heavier the PB chosen the harder the bullet will need to be. Or the better lube you will need. etc. Most people can visualize this in a rifle, but never consider the possibility in a handgun for what ever reason.

felix
04-14-2006, 08:36 AM
Bigger cases appreciate slower powders. ... felix

Dale53
04-14-2006, 11:19 AM
Bass Ackward;
Your summation of Keith may be correct. When Frank and I came up with the "design" of the Lee .44 310, we had a time press and since we were only making one design, we elected to go with a gas check base. I believed then and I still believe that it is easier to get good results with a gas check. However, you CAN get excellent results with a plain base and it is worth the effort because you save in two ways - less cost and less work (and you can add better production).

The neat thing about all of this is we can do whatever we fancy depending on the depth of our pockets:mrgreen: (within the context of "What works", of course.

In Keith's defense (he really needs NO ONE to defend him or his positions) his bullet WILL do practically anything that needs done with a handgun. I credit him with most all of our enthusiasm towards heavy handguns and handgun hunting. He was certainly the inspiration for ME...

Dale53