hardening questions

[jimgun]

I am still kinda new here and I apologize if these questions have been asked before or if this is in the wrong place. If I water drop/harden bullets, doesn't the sizing/lubing screw up the hardness? also same question with oven hardening. If I don't size them, how do I apply lube, other than the whip cream method using alox? I should specify that I am looking to make some hard 180/200 gr 357mag/357 max bullets and 300 gr 44 mag bullets for deep penetration, also for 358 bullets for my 35 whelen and whelen ackley inp. for bear hunting. all of these are gas checked and I would like to push them rather fast down the barrel. also need to order a 30 cal bullet mold 150-180 gr for my 300 savage/308/30-06 mainly for deer hunting. so anyone have any preferences? looking for load data and info for all. thanks jim

[cbrick]

Hi Jim, welcome to castboolits.

Most people that water drop WW will size/lube shortly after casting before they harden. For the boolits that I heat treat in the oven I size them before heat treating and then lube afterwards in a die .001" larger than the sizing die.

Quenching should put you in the area of 17-18 BHN with WW alloy and that is plenty hard for almost all applications. Oven HT can get up to 30 BHN but that is too hard for most things.

Here is an article that should give you some info on heat treating boolit alloy.

Heat Treating Lead/Antimony Alloy (http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm)

hope this helps.

Rick

[Zbench]

Jimgun,

The other side of that coin is not to worry about all the water hardening stuff and just get (or mix) an alloy that is hard enough out of the gate. The Lyman #2 we got professionally alloyed is a great alloy for fast moving rifle bullets. It is 16.6 BHN as it sits, and if you want to water quench it, it would be harder still...but in the range you are after it would be plenty hard.

I have a .300 savage and a 115 grain cast bullet is a great round for plinking...I use the Lyman #2 with no ill effects. :)

Pete

[sqlbullet]

also, keep in mind that the hardening is more than just skin deep. Sizing them will reduce the hardness only slightly, and only on the couple thousands of an inch of metal at the surface.

You mention that all your bullets are gas checked, so leading should not really be a huge concern with proper lube. The most recent edition of Handloader cites the original Remington 44 Mag loads as basically being gas-checked pure lead, bhn of 7 I think the article stated.

Water dropped WW alloy should be plenty hard for good penetration in those calibers. In fact, hardness much about 16-17 is probably very un-desirable as the bullet becomes brittle and may fracture rather than penetrate.

[S.R.Custom]

If I water drop/harden bullets, doesn't the sizing/lubing screw up the hardness?

Short answer... yes. and as you can see from the previous posts, there are a few ways to deal with it.

Personally, I shoot my quenched boolits pretty close to as-cast diameter. My sizing die is only slightly smaller than my as-cast diameter (.001" or less), so only a minimal amount of bullet metal on the surface is disturbed. Add to that the fact that rifling is typically .004" or more deep, and you can see that sizing really doesn't affect hardness in any significant way if you cast close to your desired diameter.

[jimgun]

thanks for all the answers. anyone got any more suggestions for a 30 cal mold, you know--the best one out there. thanks jim

[cbrick]

Your asking a really tough question. Most 30 cal moulds are the best one out there for one particular application or another. I'd look for a wide meplat and at least 180 gr for the deer you mentioned. If your going to be hunting in the wooded areas of PA the added range (or powder capacity and recoil) of the 06 wouldn't be needed so the Savage or the 308 would be the ticket. The 308 is extremely handload friendly, I don't load for the 300 Savage so can't help there.

The RCBS 180 is very accurate in my 308 but it doesn't have the meplat that I would want for deer, small hole in, small hole out. SAECO #305 would be a good candidate, Lyman and Lee also have many 30 cal moulds, there are probably more moulds in 30 cal than any caliber so to pick out the 'best one out there", tough question.

Rick

[Bret4207]

Well, IMO if the bear you're after are Pa. blacks, then WW at around 18-1900 fps should hold together well and give some expansion in the heavier muscle of a black bear as opposed to an average whitetail. If you up the velocity then either quenching or alloying to a slightly harder 12-14 bhn should give you the penetration without undue expansion. I'm guessing, but I wouldn't go any harder than 15-16 Bhn on the odd chance you hit a bone wrong and the alloy breaks up. I doubt that would happen at 2000-2200, but if you got beyond that you're into new territory and I personally would be happy with that 12-14 Bhn and 2200 fps. Bears aren't superman after all and plenty have fallen to far lesser rounds.

As for the 30 the RCBS 30-180FN has a pretty decent metplat I think, but I like to break the shoulders since they drop right there. A north south shot with that boolit will go stem to stern. There are other choices with more metplat and you can always hollow point. Soft nose casting can be done too if you like the expansion idea. Check the Group Buy area for some other choices.

[cbrick]

As for the 30 the RCBS 30-180FN has a pretty decent metplat I think, but I like to break the shoulders since they drop right there. A north south shot with that boolit will go stem to stern.

I think there are two RCBS 180 gr 30's, the FN and the one I have which has only a .125" meplat @ 40%, kinda small for deer shooting but it does well on the steel critters I shoot.

Rick

[Bret4207]

I haven't measured the metplat on mine but I think I got the designation right. This is the one I'm thinking of-

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0004482014

You can go to a really large for the caliber metplat like the Lyman 311440, but penetration will suffer without the weight behind it (ala 358009) or the velocity to push it. It's a balancing act. Speed in the 2K-2200 fps area seem to work well on deer sized game whether cast or jacketed.

[cbrick]

Yep, that's the one I don't have, flat nose, four lube grooves.

This is the other RCBS 180 gr 30 cal. the semi-point.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=112896

Compared with the flat nose . . .

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=125643

Rick

[largom]

Shot my deer last year with the Lyman 311041 boolit in a 308. I blend wheel weights and pure lead to get a BHN of 11 to 12. Boolits are air cooled and aged 4-5 weeks. Expansion testing with water jugs shows good expansion and passed thru 4 one gal. jugs. Anything harder and the boolits started sheding weight.
Larry

[badgeredd]

I am still kinda new here and I apologize if these questions have been asked before or if this is in the wrong place. If I water drop/harden bullets, doesn't the sizing/lubing screw up the hardness? also same question with oven hardening. If I don't size them, how do I apply lube, other than the whip cream method using alox? I should specify that I am looking to make some hard 180/200 gr 357mag/357 max bullets and 300 gr 44 mag bullets for deep penetration, also for 358 bullets for my 35 whelen and whelen ackley inp. for bear hunting. all of these are gas checked and I would like to push them rather fast down the barrel. also need to order a 30 cal bullet mold 150-180 gr for my 300 savage/308/30-06 mainly for deer hunting. so anyone have any preferences? looking for load data and info for all. thanks jim

jimgun,

I have found that if you allow WW with pure lead, you'll have a very hunter friendly boolit when water dropped. It wasn't my idea to do this. Several guys here have had great success with the mix for hunting. By doing so, you'll have a tough, malleable boolit of moderate hardness that doesn't fragment easily and penetrates well. I've been using a 50/50 mix, but have been told by a gentleman with lots of experience, that one can go to a 70% WW ratio with success. He told me to experiment and I'd find the best mix for me and my guns.

Meplat is definitely one consideration in a good hunting boolit. If one has a decent flat on the nose, the energy transfer is better than some more aerodynamic shapes. O like the RCBS boolit (170 grain) for a good 30 caliber hunting boolit. I am sure others have their preferences that are different than mine.

I have read many times here that since one normally can't push the top velocities with a cast boolit for hunting, that it is desirable to have a heavy for caliber boolit. In my case I use a 235 to 250 grain boolit for several of my 35 caliber rifles. Your mileage may vary.;-)

Edd

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Just on the .308/.30-06 boolits...
Avoid spire points. They work great for J-word bullets, but the long unsupported nose tends to get cocked sideways in the bore if you try to push them very fast. I have a Lyman 311413 mold that looks like a great boolit, but just won't stay accurate above around 1,600 fps.

[jimgun]

thanks again to everyone. i think I have my 35's covered with molds. I have the group buy 360180 wfn, and I'm waiting on delivery on the gb 358318 245 rn, and I signed up for the 358009. if either of the latter shows up before hunting season, I will be using it in my 35 whelen imp. I am still looking for, actually waiting for the right group buy on a 30 cal mold. it will be used in many pistols for steel silhouettes this coming year as well as my 30 rifles for hunting. I will try to mix some ww and pure lead this weekend and try it, like you guys have recommended. please keep the ideas coming thanks again jim