.45 acp casting and load issues

[gashooter]

Hello all, I am a new member and I decided to join after getting some good info about alloy as a lurker.
I would like to see if other people experience some of the same issues I do with my casting and loading, at the moment mostly with my .45acp.
1) The difference in hardness/quality of various brands of casings. Some will not accept expansion at all where others are like butter. Fiocchi, Fed. awful--Blazer, Win. acceptable--old military and Rem. excellent.
2)Because of the expansion issue the amount of "press fit" for the bullet varies, which leads to small amounts of lead rolling up at the case mouth.
Do people sort all their cases, use different expanders?
My container of cases is like 11 bean soup, there is every brand imaginable.

[wiljen]

that cutting you define in #2 will keep you from getting good accuracy as it is cutting the bullet and reducing its size. If you solve #1 - it will fix #2. You solve #1 by annealing your cases. Take a pair of pliers and dip the case mouth (about 1/4 inch) into your liquid lead. When you see a color change start to form remove the case and let it cool at room temp. (Do not drop them in water or use a fan to cool them quickly as that will harden them)

Once your cases are annealed, they will bell more easily and with less cracking. Now for #2 - flare the case mouths with either a Lyman M die or a Lee Universal expander die to open them up enough that you do not get shaved lead.

[Bill*]

Hey....Welcome to the site

[snaggdit]

I was under the impression that brass does NOT quench harden, it only work hardens. It will anneal with the dunk in the melt but if I understand it correctly, you can quench to cool and not lose the softening you gained from the heat annealing. Experts please correct me if I am off base! Thanks! Oops, yeah, welcome!

[nicholst55]

I was under the impression that brass does NOT quench harden, it only work hardens. It will anneal with the dunk in the melt but if I understand it correctly, you can quench to cool and not lose the softening you gained from the heat annealing. Experts please correct me if I am off base! Thanks! Oops, yeah, welcome!

That is my understanding, also. I've been doing it that way (water quenching) for many years.

[gashooter]

Thanks for the annealing tip, I will definately try in on the worst offenders.

[markinalpine]

My 1911A1 dings about 1/4 to 1/3 of the casemouths, and the resizer die just doesn't fully iron out the casemouth. I've found my answer is to use a Lyman M die, to just barely bell the casemouth, after resizing, before powder charging, and to carefully set the sized boolit squarely in place before seating and taper crimping. I reload mostly with Lee 452-200 RF, which drops 210gr using straight W/W, air-cooled, swirl lubed with JPW, sized with a Lee push through .452 sizer, and the Lee TL452-230-TC which drops 237gr.
I do separate and reload my brass by brand, finding that the case mouth flaring setting with the M die can vary.
Here are some articles about annealing brass:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/annealing.html
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm
They mainly deal with annealing bottleneck rifle brass, but the principles apply.
Good luck,
Mark :coffeecom

[geargnasher]

Welcome to the board, Gashooter.

As to annealing, I've always used a propane torch (rifle mostly, just the necks and shoulders). Eric is right, it's the heating that does it, not how they are cooled. If you let them air quench they get hard. Here's a good link to explain it better than I can for those truly interested: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Gear

[KYCaster]

I've been loading 45 ACP for more years than I care to count and I've yet to anneal my first 45 case. I suppose all that sorting and case prep may be of some benefit to a VERY SERIOUS bullseye competitor, but 2 in. at 25 yds. is plenty good enough for me and my loads are capable of that.

You've been given some good advice about flaring with a Lyman M die. The powder through expander dies from various companies also work well. A minimum of flare is all that's necessary, just enough to get the boolit started straight.

The ring of lead pushed up in front of the case mouth is often due to improper adjustment of the seating die. For boolits without a crimp groove, the crimp should applied in a seperate opperation after the boolit has been seated.

Adjust the seating die so the roll crimp step just straightens out the flare on the case mouth and set the seating punch to the correct overall length. Apply a taper crimp with another die.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your 45.

Jerry

[c3d4b2]

You may know this, but thought I would add it just in case......

You do not want to anneal more than the neck. While you want the neck to be malleable, the head of the case needs to be strong to prevent ruptures.

[captain-03]

I've been loading 45 ACP for more years than I care to count and I've yet to anneal my first 45 case. I suppose all that sorting and case prep may be of some benefit to a VERY SERIOUS bullseye competitor, but 2 in. at 25 yds. is plenty good enough for me and my loads are capable of that.

Jerry, I am with you on this one! I wish I had a penny for every 45acp I have loaded without annealling ... I have NEVER done it and do not believe that I am going to start. Seems like a lot of time for very little results. 45acp brass is not scarce ....

BTW Welcome!

[fredj338]

I've been loading 45 ACP for more years than I care to count and I've yet to anneal my first 45 case. I suppose all that sorting and case prep may be of some benefit to a VERY SERIOUS bullseye competitor, but 2 in. at 25 yds. is plenty good enough for me and my loads are capable of that.

Jerry
Me too. I just use Dillon dies, expand the neck to accept the bullet & go. I have not & never will anneal 45acp brass. I load mixed cases & on good days can keep 2" @ 25yds w/ my lead loads.

[HeavyMetal]

I'm going to say sort your case's!

Just plain old tolerance stacking will cause enough trouble in the same brand let alone mixed case's.

Then check your expander plug, most die sets are made by companies that think you will only load jacketed bullets, exp-ander plugs are made with .451 bullets in mid and are usually to tight for cast ( this is one of several reasons your getting shaved lead during seating)

Pull the expander plug from you die set and measure it.

[nicholst55]

Another old trick to salvage cases with dinged mouths is to use your .45 Colt expander die. The expander plug on ACP expanders tends to be rather blunt; on Colt expanders it has more of a taper. Of course, I've found that inserting the jaws of a needle-nose plier into the dinged case, opening the jaws slightly, and giving the case a spin works pretty well, too.

[will-mo]

Just my .02.

I load 1000 cast .45acp SWC rounds a month (WW alloy with a little tin). I've never sorted by headstamp or annealed. I used to have the problem you described and then I realized that my Lee seating die was also crimping. I backed out the die and problem solved. The Lee factory crimp die was giving me another problem of mashing the bullet that was a .452+. All solved when I went to my Dillon and Dillon dies.

Good luck,
Will

[lurch]

Welcome to the board, Gashooter.
If you let them air quench they get hard.

I don't think it matters what you do to cool brass when annealing. Cool it slow in air, dunk it in ice water, doesn't matter. Once heated sufficiently to soften, it's soft. Period. The only way to get it harder is to work harden it.

[snaggdit]

Another old trick to salvage cases with dinged mouths ... I've found that inserting the jaws of a needle-nose plier into the dinged case, opening the jaws slightly, and giving the case a spin works pretty well, too.

I use my gerber multi tool like this, too. Works! Sometimes cases get stepped on at the range before they get picked up. This rehabs most of them. I, too have never annealed 45s. I do as the others have said. Bell just enough to not shave boolits and crimp just enough to remove the bell. I also gave up sorting by headstamp. I go through way too many.

[lurch]

And I agree - why would you ever need to anneal a .45ACP case? Expand enough to put a little flare on the mouth and continue as normal. If lead is shaving off, you need more flare.

[inuhbad]

Jerry, I am with you on this one! I wish I had a penny for every 45acp I have loaded without annealling ... I have NEVER done it and do not believe that I am going to start. Seems like a lot of time for very little results. 45acp brass is not scarce ....

BTW Welcome!I'll also have to agree with you & KY...

I'm new to casting my own boolits, but I've been loading commercial cast boolits for years - and I've never ONCE had to anneal my casings.

If you fix #1, you'll fix #2... Just adjust your expanding die properly (or use the lyman as mentioned), and you shouldn't have any problems.

I've been shooting a hodge-podge of lord only knows how many different brands of 45 brass over the years, and I've never had a single problem like that.

Also, for your handloads, try to keep the pressures down - if you can get a good, reliable, and accurate load that functions in all your 45 guns, and has reasonable velocity - stick with it. Don't try to push your pressures & velocities up high because it'll wear out your brass prematurely.

You can often get 45 ACP brass to stay in good reloadable condition for countless reloads over a looooong time!

[looseprojectile]

Welcome;
When I shot pins I needed a lot of .45 auto ammo.
I developed a system when loading that included using a .45 Colt carbide sizer.
This die did not size the case as much as the several .45 auto dies that I had.
The cases did not need as much expansion as when using the .45 auto die.
When the .45 auto die was used my loaded rounds looked like hour glasses.
My reloads now look straight and pretty. The .45 Colt die provides plenty of case tension to hold the boolit, just doesn't work the brass as much.
I also used a nose punch that tended to center the nose of the boolit as it seated.
If you have some shaving of the boolit when seating you have not belled the case enough or you need to crimp in a seperate stage after seating or your cases are being sized too much.
I use the roll crimp to somewhat straighten the bell and also use the taper crimp die set to size just enough to reliably chamber the loaded round in the barrel.
I basically use the taper crimp die as a gauge to check the loaded round for fit in the gun. Use a minimum of taper crimp. The .45 auto needs to have a straight case mouth to chamber correctly.
The devil is in the details.

Life is good

[TAWILDCATT]

I started in compitition In 1969 and several of the top shooters were in my club.
No one ever annealed their cases.rifle yes pistol no.I have been using the sam cases since then.In 200 I move here and dont shot comp any more.3.5/6 of bullseye will shoot to point of aim to 50 yds or more. that is a nice load.I would not hesitate to use it for defence.
I use a Lee 1000 to load on and have set my dies corectly.I roll crimp in top band of the SWC.
if your gun dents the cases its hitting the back of the opening.thats why custom guns were releaved at that point.all my guns have it,I did it myself.

[dogbert41]

I don't bother annealing for the .45 ACP. If the cast mouth cracks when they get belled, I toss them. I bell them JUST enough to not shave the lead bullets, so it's rare when one splits.

Like a few guys above state, I use seperate dies for seating and then crimping. I use the Lee factory crimp die (now on j-word bullets only) after that to ensure feeding. When I started doing that, it made all the difference in the world in my ammo.

[longhorn47]

I will tell you to stay away from number 2 it smells bad

[looseprojectile]

To address the difference in brands of cases.
I have been reloading range pickup brass that some have the rim hammered to where you can't read the printing. If they go through my system they are all the same, absoutely reliable. I must have at least a dozen different brands of cases.
I would never anneal pistol brass as the base is too close to the mouth to safely do this.
The danger lies in getting the base of the case too soft thereby reducing it's strength. You surely have seen the pictures of Glock case failures? Too soft cases could ruin your whole day.
I regularly anneal rifle brass though I would toss out pistol brass that is suspect in any way.
Stay with it as just a little adjustment here and there is all you need.

Life is good

[gashooter]

Thanks for all your advice. Just to let you know, I tried the annealing trick on some of the worst cases, it does work. The necks become soft as butter and accept the expander perfectly, but, I really don't want to have to do this to any significant number of cases. It will have to be either sort or anneal though, because I can't ignore it, at least not with my cast bullets. What it comes down to with the harder cases is they are not as ductile and have more "spring back" than their softer counterparts. As it says in my profile I am a machinist. I made my own expander plugs in different diameters to experiment with which one would give me the best overall results (for cast and FMJ bullets). My cases do have a sufficient flare, I made a custom nose punch for the seater die and I do not crimp during seating I taper crimp afterward. Right now I favor the .452 expander, with the softer cases it gives about a .001 press fit on my cast bullets(that are .452) which allows them to seat without damage. The harder cases have double that amount and cause the little ring of lead to "wipe" off the walls of the bullet as it is seated. The FMJ bullets can take much more neck tension than I give them, but I hate changing the dies over all the time. I just give them a good taper crimping.