knurled bullets vs lube grooves?

[qajaq59]

I keep seeing posts with knurled bullets and now I am curious. Would lubed knurled bullets, that are not paper patched, work as well as cast with lube grooves? If they did wouldn't it be far easier to just drill a mold for most any weight you wanted? My guess is that they wouldn't or there would be molds selling like crazy.
But since I really don't know, could someone can enlighten me on the ins and outs of this. I'd appreciate it.

[44man]

I keep seeing posts with knurled bullets and now I am curious. Would lubed knurled bullets, that are not paper patched, work as well as cast with lube grooves? If they did wouldn't it be far easier to just drill a mold for most any weight you wanted? My guess is that they wouldn't or there would be molds selling like crazy.
But since I really don't know, could someone can enlighten me on the ins and outs of this. I'd appreciate it.
They are normally swaged from very soft lead so velocity must be kept low with the slowest powder you can find for the velocity.
Cast boolit alloy can be worked with and better lubes used.
If you cast your own and knurl them, they might work but the question is why? Too many good molds out there that do a better job.
Even Lee TL designs work better with a good lube.

[qajaq59]

Thank you 44man. It had me curious so I figured it was easier to ask then wonder. That's the nice part of this forum. you don't get blasted for asking!

[Bob Krack]

It's actually an interesting question.

I know for a fact that some, even many, use only a single coat of liquid alox without any leading or at at least without serious leading.

As long as there is an adequate supply of suitable lube, how it gets between the lead and the steel seems unremarkable.

I suppose that in some far-fetched "fit hits the shan" circumstance, casting boolits using a piece of pipe or piece of wood or some other such unlikely tools might be a little more than simple curiosity?

Some of us, myself extremely included, desire knowledge simply for the knowledge itself.

A "string saver" of knowledge, if ya will.

Bob

[303Guy]

Mmmm .... ! When 44man speaks, I listen! Still, I can share my theory.;) In my case, I have a rifle with a long and tapered throat. The bore is tapered too. So for me, the best boolit fit is tapered. So get the shape mold, I lathe turned it and made it nose pour. It has no lube grooves so I surface lube the whole thing. Now the theory part; The lube acts like the lube in a journal bearing, forming a film between boolit and bore which is being wedged in. This works for me with the lube I use. That was before knurling. With knurling, more lube can be held in place and tiny pockets of lube are formed over the length of the bearing surface, including the land impressions. So perhaps there is the rule and then there is ... er ... well ... me!:mrgreen:

On the other hand, a Louverin boolit is said to be a good boolit. Is that because it has lots of lube grooves or lots of driving bands? Boolit deformation due to rifling impression would be less with a grooved boolit, so .... ?

This shows the knurling after firing. The seated part of the boolit was not knurled.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-010F.jpg

I do not have range test results for this one - it was a lube test. This is when I discovered the graded hardness of the 'as cast' boolit.

[TAWILDCATT]

hornady sells swedged knurled bullets.I use ther HBWC.in my S&W 52.
the process is a machine process.they put a lube on the knurl holds the lube.the lovering has manny groves lyman makes them.and others copy theirs.

[Rocky Raab]

Factory-swaged bullets are knurled because it's a whole lot easier to roll on knurling after swaging than to create grooves. Factory-swaged bullets use a light wax lube probably not that much different from JPW. Within their launch constraints, they work fine.

I get little or no leading with either standard grooved designs or the ribbed Tumble-Lube designs, using Lee Liquid Alox or Johnsons Paste Wax as lube. My rifle bullets fly at up to 2000 fps.

I'd have to opine that bullet diameter and type of lube have more effect than grooves versus knurling. Either should work well provided the diameter and lube are correct.

[Leftoverdj]

I keep seeing posts with knurled bullets and now I am curious. Would lubed knurled bullets, that are not paper patched, work as well as cast with lube grooves? If they did wouldn't it be far easier to just drill a mold for most any weight you wanted? My guess is that they wouldn't or there would be molds selling like crazy.
But since I really don't know, could someone can enlighten me on the ins and outs of this. I'd appreciate it.

Experimenters sometimes do drill moulds to get an odd size. The cast cylinders are then rubbed between two files to knurl. It's not something anyone would want to do routinely, but it's a way to get a handful of slugs to play with. Such moulds have also been something like a swaging die. A removable pin is used to shape the nose and a light tap on the base drops the slug through the mould when the pin is removed. Very easy to make, but slow and awkard to use.

[HORNET]

I'm thinking that the old Albert's/ Taurus Shuetzenplinkers were lightly knurled and had a waxy tumble-type lube. They worked at typical plain-base velocities (~1200 or so). They were very soft, IIRC. Not particularly noted for great accuracy, but cheap plinking with reasonable short range groups.

[longbow]

I have been making push out cylindrical moulds that make smooth boolits for many years and so far have found that they work quite well. I initially started to try out different shapes and weights with the intent of only shooting a few because I figured leading would be a big issue. So far they have done what I want without significant leading problems.

In my .44 mag Marlin I used a grease cookie over a card wad on the powder with good success. No, I didn't try storing them for years or leaving them in a hot car trunk. I agree that the lube may contaminate the powder over long times or in high heat. However, it gave me the opportunity to try out different diameters, nose shapes and weights without spending a fortune on moulds.

I also use them for paper patch boolit moulds for which they excel.

More recently I started loading for .303 British and was having some leading and inaccuracy issues with a Lyman 314299 that was casting at about 0.311" while my groove diameter was 0.314"+. I made a smooth sided push out mould at 0.315" to try and it works quite well. I went a step further and made a "knurler" that puts annular rings on a slightly undersize boolit ~ sort of like Lee tumble lube grooves (I call them microgrooves) and during the grooving the boolit grows by about 0.003" so fits the bore. They can then be tumle lubed or dip lubed.

If hardness is an issue: cast, knurl, oven heat treat then lube.

I am not going to claim superior accuracy to traditional moulds, though I have been equaling the accuracy I get from a proper fitting 314299 recently.

Not a method for everyone but an option some might like to try. Even some of the black powder shooters have tried smooth boolits.

Best of all, with very minimal equipment and not a lot of time you can have a new mould to play with. Much easier to make than a split mould.

This is not a new idea by any means. Ideal was making smooth sided push out boolit moulds for paper patch boolits 100 years ago. Not sure if they were ever made with the intention of knurling but it does work.

Longbow

[qajaq59]

After reading all this I'm glad I asked the question. It seems like there is always someone out there doing interesting stuff. And it never occured to me that it could be done without making a split mold.

[Bazoo]

I have been making push out cylindrical moulds that make smooth boolits for many years and so far have found that they work quite well. I initially started to try out different shapes and weights with the intent of only shooting a few because I figured leading would be a big issue. So far they have done what I want without significant leading problems.

In my .44 mag Marlin I used a grease cookie over a card wad on the powder with good success. No, I didn't try storing them for years or leaving them in a hot car trunk. I agree that the lube may contaminate the powder over long times or in high heat. However, it gave me the opportunity to try out different diameters, nose shapes and weights without spending a fortune on moulds.

I also use them for paper patch boolit moulds for which they excel.

More recently I started loading for .303 British and was having some leading and inaccuracy issues with a Lyman 314299 that was casting at about 0.311" while my groove diameter was 0.314"+. I made a smooth sided push out mould at 0.315" to try and it works quite well. I went a step further and made a "knurler" that puts annular rings on a slightly undersize boolit ~ sort of like Lee tumble lube grooves (I call them microgrooves) and during the grooving the boolit grows by about 0.003" so fits the bore. They can then be tumle lubed or dip lubed.

If hardness is an issue: cast, knurl, oven heat treat then lube.

I am not going to claim superior accuracy to traditional moulds, though I have been equaling the accuracy I get from a proper fitting 314299 recently.

Not a method for everyone but an option some might like to try. Even some of the black powder shooters have tried smooth boolits.

Best of all, with very minimal equipment and not a lot of time you can have a new mould to play with. Much easier to make than a split mould.

This is not a new idea by any means. Ideal was making smooth sided push out boolit moulds for paper patch boolits 100 years ago. Not sure if they were ever made with the intention of knurling but it does work.

Longbow

That's real interesting. I'd like to see pictures of both the push through molds and noses, and the micro groove knurler. Do you happen to have a thread on it somewhere?