Who casts for a 22 Hornet or any 22?

[303Guy]

I just shot one or two swaged lead boolits out my hornet and got interested! The boolits started life as a cast but I used them to test my swage die and today I fired one or two of them. That was actually intended to test the suppressor but since there was no leading and the boolit filled the grooves well, with the knurling being fairly well flattened out, I have started thinking of trying cast in the hornet.

What kind of accuracy is possible?
What kind of velocity is reasonble?
What boolit weights work best?
What boolit style works best?

:lovebooli

[NHlever]

Welcome to the frustrating, fun, and rewarding world of cast in .22's. I'm a relative newbie myself, having only shot <2000 rounds of 22 Hornet, and .223 loads myself........ welll, maybe a few more than that. Because of medical issues, etc. I've done most of my shooting at 50 yards so keep that in mind. Most of my shooting has been using Lyman's old 22596 too which neither I, or other shooters would likely recommend for most 22's. ( I cast a pile of them) I've used both remelted commercial boolits ( didn't work well) or roughly Lyman #2 alloy and have air cooled the boolits. I haven't tried velocities much over 2200 fps, but have had no leading issues. Both my 22's have liked the slower of the fast burning powders generally associated with cast like AA-1680, H-110, and IMR 4227 for loads in the higher velocity ranges. Unique has worked well for 22 LR velocity, or slightly faster loads. Groups have ranged from under 1/2" to spray, and pray with most being around an inch, or slightly over. I have shot some groups at 100 yards in the 1"=1 1/2" range. Bullet weight, and design will vary quite a bit with the rifling twist in your 22. I've shot my best groups with Lyman's 225438 wich is a 45 grain round nose. The old Lyman 225415 also did very well. I have a mold for the new (heavier, and longer) 225415, and in my 1-14" twist Hornet it is finally giving me some good results using IMR 4227 in the higher velocity ranges. That boolit likes to be pushed a bit to stabilize well. I have some more loaded with both 7.5 grains on the light end, and 9.0 grains of the IMR 4227 on the higher end that I plan on shooting soon. Both load shot well in brief initial tests, but consistancy is something that can be frustrating with these little boolits so I want to shoot more groups ( oh darn) to see if they really work as well as those initial groups indicated. H-110 has given some good groups with all boolits in warmer weather, but it gets pretty cold here in the winter, and those groups fell apart with the weather change so I don't trust them as much. 2400 has been a bit of a disappointment so far but shows more promise. AA-1680 was a pleasant surprise but does like the higher charge weights. I've also gotten my best accuracy with Winchester small pistol primers.

Good luck with your shooting, and I hope this helps you find a starting point.

[303Guy]

Thank you for taking the trouble, NHlever. I have a double cavity RCBS 22-055-FN mold. I cast a batch a long long time ago and still have a few of those castings. That mold caused my baldness! I tried it again recently and it just aint gonna work! It was some of those lousy castings that I swaged. I have previousely tried some of the original batch in the hornet with very mediocre results. These same castings were not exiting successful in my mini-14 of the time either. So, having fired only two swaged castings I am wanting to try a heavier boolit to gain some punch at hornet cast velocities which i have given to believe can be quite healthy. I read somewhere of 2600fps with 55gr GC cast. Well, I don't plan on having GC's or lube grooves so my heavies would be quite short. (I have cast a 65 grainer in my first swage die).

Looking at one of the fired boolits I can see the boolit did not enter the bore concentrically. But I had the same problem with J-words and I solved that by seating in an unsized neck using a paper cup arrangement. The seated bullet was then 'glued' in place by dipping the loaded bullet into molten 'waxy-lube' which soaked up into the paper (paper hand-towel). This way the bullet would enter the bore straight and also happened to keep pressure down but a stiff charge of Lil'Gun behind a heavy bullet was required! I also let the squared necks grow until they headspaced the cartridge. I get indefinate case life firing 55gr J-words at around 2700fps. So, my aim would be to shoot 60 - 65 grainers at 2500fps. Does that sound do-able with plain cast?

I want to ream my mold out to straight sided. That would give the bullet weight I want. I would then final swage the castings (adding a hollow point), knurl and seat in a paper cup and dip lube as before.

That's the idea anyway. Real world practicalities?

The paper cup seated J-word.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

The paper cup being formed.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpg

The fired boolit. You can see why I think this might work.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-307F.jpg

The swaged and knurled boolet an a parent casting. (56gr)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-309F.jpg

[BABore]

I recently bought a Browning Micro-Hunter in 22 Hornet. I bought it from a freind that had already rung it out with jacketed and I got all of his data with the gun. It'll do between 5/8 and 3/4 inch with WW296 and Hornady 35 gr V-Max's for 5 shots at 100 yards. After laying out $14 a 100 for those bullets, I started thinking about cast. Didn't know what to expect or where to start. My gun has a 1 in 16 twist, so I suspected that 45 gr boolits would be the best place to start with sucess.

Starmetal (Joe) was kind enough to send me a few Lyman 225438's and some NEI 55 grain. I started with the 225438's that were cast from 50-50 WW-Pb, water dropped, sized at 0.224, and lubed with 50/50 alox-BW. My groove is 0.223 so I figured these would work out. I started with Alliant 2400 thinking that I should at least attempt to keep velocity and pressure low. I started at 5.0 grains and worked up to 8.5 grains in 0.5 gr increments. Things were pretty dissmal until I hit about 7 grains. I was running about a 2", 5-shot group at 100 yards. When I hit my heaviest load, 8.5 grains, I was at 1.25". I was wondering who would win the race to destroying Joe's little boolits, velocity or pressure. So far neither. For the next reloading session I ran the 2400 at 8.75, 9.0 and 9.25 grains. This was max book load. IIRC, the loading manual listed this at around 2,600 fps and 38 KPSI. This was for a 45 grain jacketed load. For giggles I also loaded up a couple sets with 12.0 and 12.5 grains of Lil Gun. Hodgdon lists a starting load of 12.0 and a max of 13.0 grains for all jacketed boolits. From 35 to 55 grains. It also lists Lil Gun as having the top velocity and lowest pressure of all the listed powders. Pressure is typically 8-12 Kpsi lower than other powders.

Anyway, I tried out my latest 2400 loads and the couple sets of Lil Gun loads. 8.75 grains of 2400 shot about the same as the 8.5 gr load. 9.0 grians, for some reason opened up to 2". The 9.25 grain load went back down to a even inch for 5 shots. Then I went on to the Lil Gun. I shot a few foulers and went for it. 12.0 grains shot an 1 3/4. Nothing impressive and it showed some vertical dispersion. 12.5 grains went into an 1.13" group. Jacketed data shows this load at around 2,700 fps, but I didn't chrono them. It was smokin, none the less. All loads were collet neck sized, loaded with CCI 500 primers, case mouths flared slightly, and a Lee FCD was used to just bring the case mouth back straight. I didn't have enough of the 225438 boolits left to do any more testing on them. I did try several sets with the NEI 55 grain boolit. Enough to know my particular gun didn't like them that heavy, even though Joe's CZ does. From there I decided it was worthwhile to cast for this little critter.

I bought or made all the sizers and lube dies, then decided to see if I could make a mold cherry that small. While working all of this out I also ordered a Lyman 225438 mold. It went right back after the first casting session. One cavity dropped at 0.223 and the other at 0.2238. I'm still tweaking the GC shank diameter on my cherry, but got it close enough now so that I can at least ball bearing expand a few gas checks for testing. I did manage to shoot a few groups this last weekend with some 8 day old (too young) boolits. Over 12,5 grains of Lil Gun they showed that they will most likely work out, but need some more age. That first few groups were at 1.25". Here's a few pics of the finished mold. When I get the cherry bugs worked out I'll most likely add it to my stock cherry list. It is a 4C mold cut into one of my normal 2C block sets. Absolutely no problems with lack of heat. In fact if I really picked up the pace, I could make frosty boolits. Don't know what all the fuss is about with 22 cal molds. I poured all of mine with a 1 lb Rowell ladle and only tossed the first mold full. This boolit drops at 0.226 and 47 grains dressed with 50/50 WW-Pb alloy.

[LIMPINGJ]

BABore, I will be ordering one when you list them. My 1 in 16 twist does better with the lighter weights at the lower velocity I mostly shoot.

[StarMetal]

BaBore is right, my CZ Hornet loves those 55 grain NEI's. It loves the Hornady 40 gr AMAX too. Now those it will throw into a 3/8 inch group. The NEI's go into a 1/2 inch group and if I remember correctly around 2200-2300 fps. My load is 11 grains of 4198 with the NEI 55 grain which fills the case up.

It won't shoot the 45 grain Lyman BaBore mentioned.

Joe

[BCall]

BABore, I'll buy one too, when you get it listed. Always looking for new molds!

303guy, before you ream that mold out, let me know, I'd trade you something else for you to use if you were willing. Those RCBS FP molds aren't the easiest thing to come by.

I like the idea od the knurled one and the patched ones, I'm just not sure I could accomplish it. I have shot quite a bit of Hornet this summer in 3 different guns. A ruger #1, a Handi rifle, and a Contender. The newer 225438 has been the most consistent over all of them. Lighter loads up to about 1600fps with Unique has done well, but 2400 has done the best for me above that. The little Bator did well in the Ruger over 9gr 2400, and the Handi(which I believe has a 12" twist) has shown good results with the RCBS FP mold and 2400. Faster has shrank groups with 2400 for me as well. Consistenly around inch and a half, sometimes better. I haven't found anything magic yet, and am still working toward trying Lil gun, it is what I use in jacketed loads. 40 gr v-max and 13 gr lilgun shoots under 1 inch for me in all 3 guns.

When loading, I personally think that many dies work the brass too much. I had alot of runout, and noticed off center boolits as well. I started using collet dies, and the problem is much less. Runout has been minimal. In the RCBS dies I was using, you could see a bulge in one side of the case after seating a bullet. I could be wrong, but I attributed that too the case neck being too tight, and with pretty much all of my brass being thicker on one side, when the bullet was seated it tended to bulge to the thinner side. I even went so far as to turn some necks on a few pieces of brass with the thickest necks to see if that helped. I noted some improvement, but not enough to make me continue. The collet die helped the most, and I could be wrong, but I personally believe it was due to less working of the brass and not reducing the case neck as far. Of course, I noted this when using jacketed bullets, and I do not know if using something like an m die with cast would make that a moot point. But with the collet die and just slightly flaring the case mouth for cast, I haven't felt the need for an m die yet. May be something to try in the future.

Now that the Handi rifle in 22 hornet has a 9" tiwst, I would really like to try one of them with heavier cast, up to 70 gr, but NEI has about the only heavy 22 cal mold I have seen, and I am loathe to order one with the reports I have read about recent NEI molds. Something else for the future. JMHO, Billy

[303Guy]

Thanks for all the replies.:drinks:

A hornet should theoretically be the ideal cast boolit caliber.

Thanks for that, BABore. Mmmm.... interesting! I have a theory as to why the groups opened up then tightened again. Just a theory! At a certain load level, the 'waist' at the lube groove starts to 'slump' but this slumping is only partial and irregular. Above a critical load level the slumping is 'complete' and more uniform. Does that make sense?


303guy, before you ream that mold out, let me know, I'd trade you something else for you to use if you were willing. Those RCBS FP molds aren't the easiest thing to come by. Yup, OK.

It does seem a shame to chop something up but I should warn you the castings don't want to come out the mold. Closing the mold and openening it again just transfers the casting to the other half! It's the wrong boolit design for me anyway. (It did shoot quite well at subsonic speeds in my mini-14, but not award winning). The 'parent' casting up above came out that mold.

BCall, apart for being afraid of making promises I can't keep, I make certain types of molds for my own use and maybe, just maybe, I could make something up for you to try?[smilie=1: If you are interested you would need to be prepared to keep hounding me until it's done!:mrgreen: I'm a scatter-brain!:veryconfu

My hornet has a 1-in-16 twist and it shoots 60gr J-words just fine. (Hornady 60gr spire points) It even stabilizes 55gr boat tails but that takes some doing ang accuracy isn't that good. I settled on 55gr Hornady spire points because they were the cheapest and they got the job done and were slightly flatter shooting. The trick is getting the bullet to enter the bore dead true. Hence my paper cup seating trick. It is a slower loading method even though it has fewer actual steps (no case prepping). It also cuts out neck annealing.

[BCall]

BCall, apart for being afraid of making promises I can't keep, I make certain types of molds for my own use and maybe, just maybe, I could make something up for you to try?[smilie=1: If you are interested you would need to be prepared to keep hounding me until it's done!:mrgreen: I'm a scatter-brain!:veryconfu

My hornet has a 1-in-16 twist and it shoots 60gr J-words just fine. (Hornady 60gr spire points) It even stabilizes 55gr boat tails but that takes some doing ang accuracy isn't that good. I settled on 55gr Hornady spire points because they were the cheapest and they got the job done and were slightly flatter shooting. The trick is getting the bullet to enter the bore dead true. Hence my paper cup seating trick. It is a slower loading method even though it has fewer actual steps (no case prepping). It also cuts out neck annealing.

I'll try anything, but I'm a little forgetful myself, so I wouldn't count on me hounding. I would however be very willing to test anything you had in mind, as long as you don't mind the opinion of a mediocre caster and shooter.:grin: What I can offer is alot of free time to load and shoot.

I haven't had much success with heavier bullets in my hornets, of course I didn't pursue it very far. The paper cuo trick intrigues me, especially the no case prep. Kinda like breech seating, just keep using the case without sizing. Maybe someday I'll try it. Billy

[303Guy]

OK then. I'll start putting something together. (I'm going to put something together for myself at the same time). It will be good to see what another caster/reloader thinks of my ideas!:drinks:

By the way, BABore, those mold pics are real good!

[1Shirt]

Any of the 224's can be fun and frustrating at the same time until you find the right combination. Lots of good info on hornet and the others on this and other forums. Suggest you read Beagles article(s) on cast in 223s.
1Shirt!:coffee: