What do you all think?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Sorry if this post offends anyone.
I have tried everything to get a Barnes 53gr TSX bullet to shoot half way decent from my 22-250 1-14 twist. The best it would do was a 5 shot group which measured five inches at 100 yards.[smilie=b: All my other loads can shoot ¾” groups easily.

Has anyone else had trouble shooting these bullets in a 1-14 twist?

Barnes also makes a 45gr TSX bullet which I have been thinking about giving a try. Do you think I might have any luck with a lighter shorter bullet? I think the problem with the 53gr bullets is the fact that they are rather long.

[felix]

How pointed is that nose? The more pointier, the lower the twist requirement. Of couse, that assumes enough land grabbing (bearing) capability for the load. 14 twist will do OK for 150 yard boolits at 2400 fps, 225646, which are rather blunt, and are 0.665 long. ... felix

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Both the 45gr and the 53gr bullets have a nose that resembles most 22 HP bullets. The only thing that looks unusual about them is that they are rather long for their weight. The solid copper bullets weight significantly less then a traditional lead core bullet of the same size.

[Blammer]

the shorter bullets should work better.

I think the 53gr's lenght is marginal for the 14 twist you have.

[felix]

If the bullets are all copper, then the twist requirement goes WAY up!!!! Heavier the projectile, the LESS twist is required. ... felix

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Send them to me; they'll work just fine in my '74 vintage Colt AR15 with a 1:12 twist. :)

I can't use longer (therefore heavier) bullets than 55gr in my AR15, as they will not be stable.

With your 1:14 twist, you'll need a pretty short bullet (therefore pretty light in a spire point) in order to stabilize over a reasonable range of temperatures.

The 22-250 being a very high-velocity rifle, you will likely get the best range and flattest trajectory out of SHPBT (spire-hollow-point, boat-tail) projectiles. Unfortunately, the SHPBT projectiles require a higher rate of twist to stabilize properly.

A SP is a trade-off. The lack of a boat-tail will slow the round more quickly than if it had one, making the flight path more banana-shaped. However, the lack of a boat-tail will make the round shorter for it's length, which helps stability a great deal.

If you want to be able to fire heavier bullets, you'll need a barrel with a higher twist rate. 1:12 wouldn't be a bad compromise between the real little bullets and stuff up to about 55gr. If you want to be able to go up to, say, 62gr, then consider a 1:10 twist, or a bit faster if you'll be shooting in cold weather and/or low altitudes.

Air density plays a big part in bullet stability. A bullet that might be marginally stable at high altitude/hot weather may be unstable at low altitude/cold weather. The military found this out long ago when they tried out some accurate rifles (under warm conditions) in arctic conditions, and the rifles wouldn't shoot worth a darn. They increased the rate of twist, and that solved the problem.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Sorry SierraWhiskeyMC shot them all up already and have no intention of buying any more 53gr.

I did place a order with Midway today to try some of those 45gr TSX bullets, I will update as soon as I find out how they fly.

I did some research on Google, and apparently I am not the only one that has had trouble shooting 53gr TSXs from a 1-14 twist even though they are designed for a 1-14 twist. I found a lot of recommendations for the 45gr ones in a 1-14 twist. However I have yet to find info on a guy that had trouble with the 53s and success with the 45s, so I will just have to find out for myself in a week or so.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

OK, here's from the Barnes website FAQ: http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/faq/
Barnes Reloading Manual
How does your data compare to other manufacturers’ data?
Because our bullets feature completely different construction (solid copper), they build pressures differently. Triple-Shock X Bullets normally reach maximum pressure and velocity with lower powder charges. Therefore, we always recommend using our data.

Barnes load data page: http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/load-data/
22-250 load manual: http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/22-250RemingtonWeb.pdf
First line on the first page under the title block:
*A 1:12” or faster twist is recommended for 45-grain Banded Spitzer and 53-grain TSX bullets.

So, these little tidbits explain why you got poor accuracy from the 53gr TSX bullets, and also why you're getting such high chrony readings in your other thread.

I had completely forgotten that Barnes TSX bullets were all copper instead of copper-jacketed lead bullets. That makes the TSX considerably lighter than copper-jacketed lead bullets for the same external dimensions; thus would require more twist to stabilize.

Please read all through the FAQ that I linked to; not all of it will apply to your situation, but parts of it may be quite valuable for you.

And please use Barnes' load data with their bullets.

[44man]

Very true what everyone has said. Back in my varmint hunting days I could use 60 gr Hornady bullets in my pre 64 model 70 in 220 swift with accuracy beyond 600 yards. The twist was 1 in 10". Not a single 22-250 would come near it for accuracy or range with a 1 in 12". Lighter bullets are needed in them and that cut range drastically. The main reason I never bought one.
Going to a 1 in 14" makes it even harder to work with. If I were to buy a 22-250, I would want a minimum of 1 in 10".
Then you have to get away from working loads at 100 yards too because bullets do not go to sleep at that short a range, 300 yards is the best and farther does not hurt either.
If all shots are under 200 yards the 22-250 and a 1 in 12" is OK for the shorter bullets.
Slow twists are a pain in the butt, even in revolvers.

[44mag1]

I think the problem could be the barnes bullets. Ive never been able to get stellar accuracy with any of them. Ive had very good results with the speer 70 grain bullets out of my 22-250, both on game and targets

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Thank you for your concern, but to set the record strait I was using a Lyman 49th Edition manual which has data specifically devoted to the Barnes 36gr VG and the 53gr TSX.

[44mag1]

The varmint grenade is another bullet Ive used that did not give stellar accuracy but did "blow" prairie dogs to pieces. Im using a 22-250 with a 1in14 twist.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Thank you for your concern, but to set the record strait I was using a Lyman 49th Edition manual which has data specifically devoted to the Barnes 36gr VG and the 53gr TSX.

I didn't think that you were using completely generic .22-250 load data, which is much of what's in Lyman's load manuals. By their nature, the Lyman reloading books have to be somewhat generic; otherwise you'd need a forklift to get them to your reloading room. ;)

Barnes seems to have a pretty good reputation among other shooters I've talked with. I haven't used their products myself.

All I'm suggesting here is that Barnes wants their customers to get the best performance out of their products as possible, and have gone to some lengths to provide data and support to help their customers get that performance.

Pure copper weighs about 79% as much as pure lead. A lead-core jacketed bullet is obviously going to weigh somewhere in between a pure lead boolit and a pure copper bullet, depending upon the thickness of the jacket. The lighter the material, the longer the bullet will have to be to get the same weight. It'll be affected by crosswinds more, too.

Were I you, I'd write to Barnes tech support and ask them what the overall length of the 46gr TSX bullet is, and ask them if it would be stable when fired from your 1:14 twist barrel using Barnes-recommended loads, giving the elevation and temperature range where you expect to be using the rounds.

Lower temperatures = increased air density = less stable bullet.
Lower altitude = increased air density = less stable bullet.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

If you want to be able to fire heavier bullets, you'll need a barrel with a higher twist rate. 1:12 wouldn't be a bad compromise between the real little bullets and stuff up to about 55gr. If you want to be able to go up to, say, 62gr, then consider a 1:10 twist, or a bit faster if you'll be shooting in cold weather and/or low altitudes.[QUOTE]

Speaking of faster twist barrels for the heavy bullets has anyone ever heard of a problem with a light bullet getting to much spin? Years ago I heard rumors that 22-250 velocities combined with a fast twist bullet would rip a light 22 bullet apart before the target, but is this true with modern jacketed 22s?



[QUOTE=44mag1;659113]The varmint grenade is another bullet Ive used that did not give stellar accuracy but did "blow" prairie dogs to pieces. Im using a 22-250 with a 1in14 twist.

The 36gr VG give me ¾ MOA, my only complaint is how the wind can blow these little bullets all over the place out past 300yards. Inside a 300yards these bullets are absolutely devastating.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Speaking of faster twist barrels for the heavy bullets has anyone ever heard of a problem with a light bullet getting to much spin? Years ago I heard rumors that 22-250 velocities combined with a fast twist bullet would rip a light 22 bullet apart before the target, but is this true with modern jacketed 22s?

I've also heard of that, but haven't seen any physical evidence. I don't have anything that shoots that fast at that high a twist rate. The closest I get is 55gr Remington Accelerator rounds out of my M1903A3 that has a 1:12 twist, around 4200fps.

You might write to various bullet manufacturers and ask them what is the maximum RPM that the specific model number of bullets you are interested in are rated for.

Just as a SWAG, the thicker the jacket material, the higher the rated RPM will be.

But spinning bullets faster than necessary will negatively impact accuracy.
Here's a helpful page: http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-and-stability

With that rifle, you're going to need to select a pretty narrow range of bullet weight/length/velocity combination, and optimize your twist for that range.

[lurch]

Speaking of faster twist barrels for the heavy bullets has anyone ever heard of a problem with a light bullet getting to much spin? Years ago I heard rumors that 22-250 velocities combined with a fast twist bullet would rip a light 22 bullet apart before the target, but is this true with modern jacketed 22s?


Been there to some extent. I have a .223 custom barreled action - Sako A1, Wilson 1:12 barrel (action trued, lugs lapped, bore lapped, etc.) - that I stocked when I was in college. I bought a box of 1000 Rem 50gr. PLHP that were cutting groups around 1/2" regularly at 100 yards, but only if I cranked the velocity up to about 3400fps. Velocity from this gun (with the 50 gr bullets) routinely exceeds what is listed in any manual I have for a given powder charge by about 150fps with safe pressure indications. It's a screamer... I was really happy since these were relatively cheap at the time and college kid budgets being what they are... Ran out of that box so I ordered another box of 1000 several years later. That box will give the infamous blue streak at those velocities - a nice little smoky trail somewhere between the muzzle and the target, usually stopping well before 100 yards. Backing that lot of bullets off to about 3200fps gives good accuracy without the blue streak (not to mention being easier on brass and the barrel). While searching for another bullet that would let me get back to 3400fps, I found that all of the 50gr bullets I tried tended to blue streak from that gun at 3400. Granted I didn't go for the heavy jacket types, just the varmint ones. None came apart before getting to the target, but accuracy suffered pretty badly with the group size about doubling when blue streaking.

[HORNET]

IIRC, Hornady suggests a maximum velocity of 3500 fps for their 50 & 55 gr SX bullets. I believe Sierra suggests the same velocity limits on the Blitz & Blitzkings. I do know that I got the old standard (NOT high-velocity) 45 gr Sierra 22's to blue-streak and leave 50 yard shot patterns from my 14" twist .22-250. Actual limiting velocity probably depends on rifling depth, twist rate, and smoothness as well as jacket thickness.

[44man]

That was a good article on spin and is exactly what I have been saying for years even for a revolver.
If you shoot close, slow the spin or reduce the velocity but if you do like I used to do when I found a chuck at 200 yards, you need a faster twist. I would turn around and walk 2 to 300 yards farther before shooting the chuck, depending on terrain behind me.
Twist must match the use for the gun and the bullets you want to shoot.
It is very true that too fast of a twist will show poor accuracy AT CLOSE RANGE but once you see what the bullet will do when it gets way downrange you will change your mind real fast.
Look at the .475 revolver. I found my 420 gr boolit is stable at 1329 fps from the 1 in 15" twist of the BFR, almost one hole groups at 50 yards to full stability to 500 meters.
The RPM's are 63,792.
Now take the other guns with a 1 in 18" rate. Shooting the same boolit to stability means you need to reach 1595 fps---kind of unrealistic don't you think? Then the first thing a guy wants to do is to bob the barrel to 4" so it is easy to carry. But that is still not good enough, he also wants to shoot a 440 gr boolit!!!!!!! [smilie=1:
What it boils down to is the 1 in 18" twist is more at home with a 350 gr boolit and that is exactly what I have found.
Now the 1 in 18" will shoot the 420 gr OK but it takes 1/2 gr more powder, however, the boolit does not reach the extreme accuracy, it is good enough for hunting and is accurate enough to 100 yards so it is a happy medium. To make the boolit longer and heavier would be a waste of time.
This is still the same as the rifle in that you need to either find the best for accuracy or reach a happy medium. Making the twist too slow reduces what you can do with it.
The 22-250 has a happy medium at 1 in 12", better for long range and longer bullets with a 1 in 10" and better for close range and light bullets with 1 in 14".

Now compare the .44 mag with a 1 in 20". Shoots best at 1335 fps and a spin of 48060.
Stick the same in a Marlin with the 1 in 38 rate and you need to shoot the boolit 2550 fps. Now just how do I do that? :coffeecom
I will always err on the side of a faster twist no matter what I shoot. You can always reduce velocity. :Fire:

[2ndAmendmentNut]

First line on the first page under the title block:
*A 1:12” or faster twist is recommended for 45-grain Banded Spitzer and 53-grain TSX bullets.


You are correct, however the 45gr Banded Spitzer is different then the 45gr TSX. I could find no recommended twist for the 45gr TSX, so I am assuming that they are intended for the standard 1-14. Either way I received my Midway order yesterday and hopefully I will get to do some testing to see if my 22-250 will shoot those 45gr TSXs.