What's a good HARD lube - REAL HARD

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Guys,

I've got a little bit of a special application dilemma on my hands & I'm looking for some advice. I have a rifle with a long throat & I want to load my ammo with the boolit far enough out, that it reaches the lands. Unfortunately, this means that it will be so far out that both lube grooves will be exposed, so I'm looking for a hard lube that will stand up to normal cartridge handling without being protected by the cartridge neck. Does such a substance exist?

The hardest thing that I have laying around is some orange magic, but I have always thought of that as pistol lube. I want to push these rifle boolits around 2300fps & I don't know if the orange stuff is up to that task or not. I guess that my second question would be - has anyone pushed orange magic up over 2,000fps? & if so, were the results good?

As another option, I can get some Alox 50/50 locally, if that is likely to work well. I probably have some LLA kicking around somewhere if I go look for it, but that seems a little soft & sticky for this application. I have some Lyman Super Moly Lube, but that is about the last thing that I want to use here. That stuff dries up & shrinks when it is left exposed. Any lube other than the ones I have mentioned, I would need to order from someplace & wait for it to arrive, but I'll do that if I need to.

So what does everybody think?
I'm looking for ideas here.

Thanks,
Jim
:lovebooli

[geargnasher]

Jim, about he only thing I know of to realistically solve your problem is paper patching. The exposed paper won't attract grit, will handle well, and if wrapped just over the break in the ogive will let you seat that boolit .005-.010" deeper in the case.

My first thought was LLA/JPW/mineral spirits, because it isn't very sticky and dries in about 2 hours, I've been using that one a lot lately for TL pistol boolits that can handle the Texas heat, but I've never had much luck with it at anything over 1600 fps or 20" of barrel. YMMV.

Gear

[garandsrus]

Jim,

I would try shooting the rifle without lubing the exposed lube grooves.

John

[Hardcast416taylor]

Thompson`s Cold Bear Blue hard lube, you`ll need a heater for using it. I`ve been using this stuff for about as long as it has been on the market with no leading problems in my rifles, I even use it in my hotter .44 mag. and .45 Lc loads with no problems.Robert

[JIMinPHX]

Hardcast, Who sells that brand of lube? I haven't seen it before.

Garands, All my lube grooves are exposed, or else I would have done as you suggested.

Gnasher, that's a direction that I hadn't even considered going in. Thank you for adding an option to my list. I think that I'm going to stay with plan "A" & try to find a good hard lube first, but if it doesn't work out, I may try it your way later.

Anybody else - Has anyone tried orange magic at 2,000+fps?

Thanks for the responses guys.

[Matt_G]

Jim,

My suggestion is either Thompson's Blue Angel or Red Angel.
Another one to try would be Rooster Red (HVR).
Blue and Red Angel are sold by Midway.
They used to sell Rooster's HVR but I'm not seeing it now.

I have used all three and never had any issues due to lube.
All three will require heat to get them to flow.
Blue Angel will flow around 130 F.
Red Angel needs about 150 F.
Can't remember what the Rooster Red HVR needed but it was at least as much heat as Thompson's Blue Angel.
I now use Blue Angel all the time. I will size and lube boolits and store them in coffee cans. The other day I found a box full of Lyman 452460 boolits lubed with Blue Angel and stored in a box. The flaps on the box were open. These things had been sitting around for years and nothing is stuck to the lube. No dirt, dog hair or anything like that. Sure, they are dusty, but it wipes right off and they look like they just came out of the sizer.
Once the lube has cooled to room temp it is pretty dang hard.
It's good stuff IMHO.

[yondering]

How about Lars' Carnuba Red? It's fairly hard, and is intended for rifle velocities.

[scb]

When I saw your tag I was going to recommend Thompson's Blue Angel as well. It's hard stuff. But like any lube I've used it attracts dirt and lint and other forms of "stuff" I wouldn't want to shoot down my barrel. My "normal cartridge handling", at least for hunting, may well be different than yours and this may not be a concern.

[runfiverun]

i have used jakes ceresin up to 2,000 fps it's as hard as commercial lube.
it failed me totally at about 2100 fps [chronoed]
i would give the orange a try it is supposed to hold up to velocities pretty well.
there is also the option of mixing 3 parts jpw to one part b-wax meling it in the wave [it cooks the solvents from the jpw]
swirl lubing and letting it sit for a couple of weeks before loading it gets as hard as a board but lubes nicely i have pushed it to 2200 in the 30-30.

[JIMinPHX]

... But like any lube I've used it attracts dirt and lint and other forms of "stuff" I wouldn't want to shoot down my barrel. My "normal cartridge handling", at least for hunting, may well be different than yours and this may not be a concern.

No, you're on the right track. That's just the kind of stuff that I'm worried about. That's why I'm looking for a hard, not-sticky lube.

[JIMinPHX]

i would give the orange a try it is supposed to hold up to velocities pretty well.


It looks like that's going to be the first thing that I try, since I have some already. I loaded up a few this afternoon. It will probably be a few days before I get a chance to get to the range with them. I'll post my results after I see how they work.

Thanks for all the good info so far & feel free to keep it coming guys. I'm planning on trying at least a few different things before I settle on my final choice.

[geargnasher]

Jim, how much of that boolit is in the case neck?

Gear

[GabbyM]

Jakes Red has worked well for me in the past.
http://www.jakesproducts.com/index.html

Nothing special about it. But it does work in a rifle. Also have a bag full of Magma lube I've just been using for wax and colorant in my home made lube. It's about or the same as blue Angel? Or not worth it's weight in wax. I've never tried Blue Angle. Just been told Mama is similar or the same stuff. May be BS.

Never tried the Roster or LBT lubes but as all of us have heard good things. Lar's Carnauba Red is way to sticky for what you want. It kind of migrates after a while in the box.

I take it you don't want to make your own lube. Since you could just toss a lump of bee wax into the sticky stuff you have.

You might call Lar45 and ask if his 2500 lube is sticky.

[finishman2000]

lar have a hard commercial lube that I received but haven't tried yet. same price as the others, but needs a heater and from a fingernail test is about as hard as my ballisti-cast hard lube that i normally use now. he has it but haven't heard a word spoken about it here on the boards.

[Matt_G]

When I saw your tag I was going to recommend Thompson's Blue Angel as well. It's hard stuff. But like any lube I've used it attracts dirt and lint and other forms of "stuff" I wouldn't want to shoot down my barrel.

Interesting. That isn't my experience with Blue Angel here.
As I stated above, those 452460 boolits have been in a box with the flaps open for years. They are dusty, but nothing is sticking to the lube. The dust wipes right off. When I found them I was expecting dog hair to be sticking to the lube and frankly I was surprised that wasn't the case.
Of course these things were inside all those years. It's not like they were out in the shed and exposed to large temperature ranges.

My 2 cents, FWIW.

[JIMinPHX]

Jim, how much of that boolit is in the case neck?

Gear

Not much, about 2/3 of a diameter (0.15"). If it was any less, I wouldn't have tried it.

[scb]

Interesting. That isn't my experience with Blue Angel here.
As I stated above, those 452460 boolits have been in a box with the flaps open for years. They are dusty, but nothing is sticking to the lube. The dust wipes right off. When I found them I was expecting dog hair to be sticking to the lube and frankly I was surprised that wasn't the case.
Of course these things were inside all those years. It's not like they were out in the shed and exposed to large temperature ranges.

My 2 cents, FWIW.

No I agree, boolets just sitting around waiting to get loaded lubed with B.A. probably won't "pick-up" anything. I too have some that have been sitting around for years and they look the same as the day I lubed'm. Just for the heck of it put 3 or 4 of your 452460's in you pants pocket and carry them around for a day and see what they look like. I think part of the problem is body heat, another is that while the lube is hard it isn't so hard that "stuff" can't get embedded in it if pressure is applied. I use Blue Angle all the time and have had great success with it. It's the lube in my avatar. I just don't think it will be a solution to Jim's problem. I'm afraid he may have a hard time finding one.

[geargnasher]

What's wrong with keeping them in a clean mtm casegard box until loading and firing? They probably aren't "field durable" or magazine loadable anyway due to chance of bending the boolit/case neck, but I'm just speculating as to your purposes. My hunting ammo has to endure being dropped (cold fingers!) and being carried in the bottom of an old army jacket pocket with grit, lint, old arrowheads, pecans, birdfeathers and whatnot, so I'm in tune with the concept of durability!

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

They're going to go from a MTM box to the elastic shell holder on the butt stock of my Handi rifle & then they'll get loaded one at a time into the breach. Going into & coming out of the elastic shell holder is where they are most likely to get a bit of a rub. That's what they need to hold up to.

[303Guy]

JIMinPHX

Depending on how you apply your lube, the stuff I use might work. Only one way to find out!

It's made up of 1 part Alox, 1 part STP and two parts candle wax. Melt together and apply molten. It hardens like candle wax and even stays on an ungrooved boolit nose - which is how far up I would apply it. The proportions can be varied. It's what I call 'waxy-lube'.

Hope that helps.

[JIMinPHX]

I managed to make a quick run out to the desert & pop off a few rounds. The initial results with Orange Magic look promising. I got about an inch group at 50 feet kneeling in some uncomfortable rocks. There was no leading from 10 rounds. I'll load up some more & see how they do in a bench rest situation when I get a chance.

[sagamore-one]

Rooster Lab Zambini is well worth a try. Lubed boolits can be accidentilly dropped on the garage floor and can be air hosed off. I have used over 100 sticks in the last year. If I want a softer lube I mix Rooster, half and half, or one to three with Lars commercial red. If I recall correctly, the melting temp is around 180 degrees. A base heater is absolutely required on your sizer. Lars and Rooster are both very good products, but Rooster is harder and less sticky.
My 2 cents worth.

[bearcove]

Instead of putting them in cart loop maybe use a snack size ziplock in your shirt pocket. Keeps dirt off my cookies pretty good.

[jonk]

Call me crazy but I've only ever tended to use Felix lube and standard 50/50 lube. Unless I'm out in 100 degree heat (and even then if in a cartridge box) neither has ever rubbed off or picked up dirt. I lube the bullets, load the ammo, put loaded ammo in boxes, and forget about it. Never worried if a lube groove was exposed or not.

In short I question the need for a hard lube for your reasons.

But, if you really think you need it, I've found Rooster Red to be fairly hard. I only ever had one stick but was happy enough with it. I also wouldn't overlook lee liquid alox. Yes, it can be tacky, but as Lee advertises, it clings tenaciously to a bullet. They proved this in their ad by heating it to melting point- where the lead melted that is- and the LLA stuck to the bullet still.

[sagamore-one]

2 cents worth.
Rooster Lab Zambini is almost twice the cost of other lubes. Even so... I ordered another 100 sticks today . One of my better clients loads commercially and refuses any 38/357 bullet lubed with alox of any kind. He will accept almost any "hard" lube but preferrs Zambini Red. Ninety percent of my clients and friends prefer Zambini. The other ten percent are mostly 50/50 shooters.
I have on hand numerous brands of bullet lube but zambini is what I use the most. It is much harder and much less sticky than almost any other lube. And it works wonderfully. The only drawback is the price. But you only get what you pay for.
Again.. no offense intended.

[canyon-ghost]

http://www.lsstuff.com/ Carnuba Red is a high velocity lube that requires heat, and 2700+ is record-setting stuff. For the price, these are excellent, smell a lot better than most and serve the purpose well. I use Carnuba Red for a 7mmTCU pistol round that shoots 200 yards at close to the speed of a 30'06.

[Char-Gar]

Jim... I think you are barking up the wrong tree! You may need less lube than you think and the lube grooves in the neck may be all you need. Try it and find out.

If you still think you need some lube on the part of the bullet sticking out, paint the noses and exposed body with Lee Liquid Alox. Use your normal lube on the part in the the neck.

I used to do this with the long multi-groove Loverine style bullet, but then I discovered just two or three grooves in the barrel was plenty of lube.

[JIMinPHX]

the lube grooves in the neck may be all you need. Try it and find out.


There are no lube grooves left in the neck. All of them are exposed. When I had just 1 groove still in the neck, I lubed just that one & it was enough. Now I am running with everything out in the open, so I had to come up with plan B. Your liquid alox suggestion just made me think of something. Perhaps, I could assemble the cartridge completely & then just dip the exposed boolit in the LLA & let it dry upright. I'll have to try that sometime.

[stocker]

Jim: One of my 8mm boolits has two lube grooves that extend beyond the case mouth if I want to be anywhere near the lands. I've been using Lar's Carnauba Red lube. After loading I dip the exposed part of the boolit in Motor Mica to coat the exposed lube. It does seem to protect the lube to some extent but a bit of care is still required if you want them to remain grit free for long. I made a leather belt pouch with a snap flap to hold a 20 round plastic cartridge box to carry them in. I leave the top off the box. I have always considered those elastic cartridge butt sleeves to be an abomination and I sure think they would interfere with my efforts to protect lube. Anyhow you might try the Motor Mica.

[JIMinPHX]

What is motor mica?

[geargnasher]

Really fine powdered graphite, sometimes used as a wad lube by shotgun reloaders among other things. Get it at Midway, but kinda spendy, someone else here found it at a supply house cheaper, think it was 44man.

Gear

[runfiverun]

some guys use cornstarch.
i have wiped a smear of lanolin on the nose of some of my bore riders it has helped accuracy, and it dries too