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6.5 mike
09-05-2009, 04:40 PM
Hi ya'll I got a lee 309 200 mold awhile back & it drops small on the nose .2975/3095.
I wanted it for my hiwall & a couple others but the hiwall slugs .301/307 so I figure I have 1 of 3 choices 1) lap it out, 2) beagle it, & 3) paper patch.
I did wrap some as cast to see how much the nose would gain & came out .304 nose & .314 on the body. This is with meade tracing paper. Will the rifleing cut this much on the nose? I know 303Guy works with a tapered mold, but not sure how much. I did go back & look at his pic's & it looks like the patch comes off in larger pieces rather then confette. I know the idea is to loose the patch at or close to the muzzle for best shooting, just do'nt know if this size will work.
The other question is how much to size down the body? I'm sizing the 185's to .309 & getting good results so far in the hiwall. Padawg goes to .301, & uses #16 paper. I would like to stay with meade if I can as it seems to wrap better for me. I figure I need a final size .309/.310. The 185's are lubed & g/c'ed.
After hashing this over in my febble brain for a couple months, I guess I'll leave the mold alone, as it lets me very my boolit size by beagling or pping. And it can be made to fit most of my .30/.31 caliber rifles this way.

montana_charlie
09-05-2009, 05:29 PM
Sounds like you need to size the bullet down to .3045" and wrap with the Meade paper.
I wouldn't put any paper on the nose, myself.
CM

6.5 mike
09-05-2009, 07:33 PM
MC, wont the nose slump with that much difference in diameter? As it is the boolit falls into the bore all the way to the drive bands.
I did think about bealging one side & wrapping over that trying to get closer to size, but I have both sides done now. It does drop large enough like this to fit both the 99 303's. It also fits my 7.7 jap this way. Only drawback is it comes out very out of round.
This is my first summer casting & even brushing a thinned coat of mule snot on gums up the seating die. If I can cure this with a piece of paper, I'll be a happy camper.

montana_charlie
09-05-2009, 09:41 PM
MC, wont the nose slump with that much difference in diameter?
My original intent was just to give you a bullet diameter that matches up with your Meade paper. I should have kept my mouth shut about the bullet nose.
However, to try to answer your second question, I went to the Lee website to see your bullet.
As long as that nose is, you may want to patch it.

But, the diameter is less than bore, so the patch won't be cut by the rifling...and you still have those two diameters to try to smooth a patch onto.

I'm not the guy to advise you on how to do that.

My preference is to have a mould that casts the bullet I want to patch...period...without all the other 'manipulations' you see recommended.

CM

WILCO
09-05-2009, 10:00 PM
I recently read that the best results were obtained with a cast bullet diameter of .301" and patched with paper .0035" which resulted in a total diameter of .313" for use in .30 cal. cartridges......

303Guy
09-06-2009, 07:00 AM
I know 303Guy works with a tapered mold, but not sure how much. I did go back & look at his pic's & it looks like the patch comes off in larger pieces rather then confette.Aah... yes, but don't forget that was with reduced loads. I figured that if the patch comes off reasonably at low velocity, it would come off better at full tilt. (It worries me when a patch comes off like a condom at low speed! :mrgreen: )

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-064F.jpgDried

That only came off in the catch medium.

You know, for better or for worse, I like that tapered boolit.[smilie=1:


As long as that nose is, you may want to patch it.

But, the diameter is less than bore, so the patch won't be cut by the rifling...and you still have those two diameters to try to smooth a patch onto.Well now, i do not have much experience at putting patched boolits onto target but I have put a few patches on some odd shaped boolits!

This one is tapered but not just a 'straight' taper.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-120F.jpg
The edge angle matches the rifling angle. One can see the ink line is no straight.

Here is another example.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MakingEndsMeet-1.jpg

What's probably the most significant thing here is that I am just a beginner and I have been able to 'make ends meet' so to speak. If I can do it, so can anybody else!

6.5 mike
09-06-2009, 04:52 PM
Mc- I see what you mean about the mold being closer to size on both the nose & body, would make things alot easier. Not to worry about being the "right guy to give advice", I've been looking at the BP section & checking your advice for the Sharps. I think that will be my next rifle, just do'nt know about the "holy black" yet.
Wilco- most of the guys using a .301 starting size boolits are wrapping one that's closer on the nose. Atleast that's how I'm reading their posts. The reason for a larger size starting cast is to not have to size it, or a very slight amount. Also & I do'nt know if it's me or the humidy here, the others I've tried take awhile to dry & the tracing paper does'nt. It also seems to wrap tighter for me.
303Guy- Yes they do look like a broken condum at slower speed. I do enjoy your posts & pics. Seems you can come up with some interesting things. And I'm still at the baby step stage too. Keep sending the pics, sometimes that's the best thing when I'm stuck on the boat.
My lee 185 mold drops at .3005/.3115 & I have pp'ed it for my 303 sav with good results so I can see how the nose size to body size does play a big part. Best thing here is no sizing needed with 2 wraps meade paper. I was hoping the 200 gr would allow me to do the same thing, but lee struck.

303Guy
09-08-2009, 04:54 PM
I have mensioned befor (somewhere) about castings bending in the mold (or soon after). Well I found a bent example. It is horrifying just much it bent! This probably alloy related as cooling would have been even aroung the circumference of the boolit - it's a symmetrical mold. Slight bending might make one think the boolit rubbed un evenly or something which is what I thought in itially. I shall now be swageing all my castings (that puts a neat hollow point in the boolit and sets the two-diameter form).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-261F.jpg

I've just learnt how to use Paint for drawings hee hee. So, here is the ideal boolit shape I am trying to get.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/BOOLITPROFILE.jpg

(The vertical lines are diameter change points).

6.5 mike
09-12-2009, 03:23 PM
303Guy, do your boolits step down or is it a true taper.

303Guy
09-12-2009, 03:50 PM
I have three boolits I patch. One is a 'almost' straight taper the other is a Lee bore-rider and the third is a two-diamete with a taper between the two diameters (not quite as long a taper as the drawing shows).

The pic in my above post with a blue 'not so straight' line is the 'almost' straight tapered one. The blue line is not straight because the paper has to stretch differentially to fit the core. Easy with a bit of practice. Even dry wrapping will get the patch to fit tight. But the two-diameter boolit need to be wrapped wet. The trick is to cut the patch to the right shape. Not difficult but a template helps. There is a bit of a technique in the actual wrap but the end result is a patch with the ends meeting just about perfectly. It doesn'r take long to master that technique. It can be done using a cig roller. A different technique is used to keep the side of the patch rolling straight. I find it easier on a foam pad because I can see the progress all the way. I can try do describe the technique if you like. (Describing it will be harder than actually doing it! :mrgreen: But I'll try if you don't mind my clumsy description - in fact, it would be rather fun to see someone else trying my technique!)

6.5 mike
09-12-2009, 04:11 PM
Go ahead 303Guy. Between healthdee's pic & what you just posted now I'm interested. Always ready to learn something new.

303Guy
09-12-2009, 05:14 PM
Right, here goes. [smilie=1:
Now I know my describing skills are somewhat lacking so please feel free to ask for clarification and I'll try to make things clearer.

The boolit (same as above) and the patch to fit it.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/BOOLITPROFILE.jpg
I was too lazy to round off the dimensions!
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/303BritPaperPatchTemplate.jpg

The "O" marks the corner that starts on the nose. That's a 30 angle (arbitrary but suites my rolling technique). The two angled sides need to be the same length. The top 'side' is the length that wraps the nose section and 'meets the ends' when wet. The bottom 'side' is of a different length and 'meets the ends' on the base. That length is determined by cutting the patch width to end just on the core base. Once the top and bottom lengths are determined, a parallel offset is added to the base to form the 'tail'. The sides are then extended.

(The drawing is a template for printing a page of patches. I arrange the templates so they sit back to back and top to bottom to form two sets of zig-zag lines on the page along which I cut with scissors. The zig-zagging makes no difference to the cutting).

I find it best to dry-wrap to find the top and bottom patch lengths - no wet paper stretch to contend with). The patch must wrap so the over lying layer exactly matches the first layer otherwise the length will be out. Once the two lengths are determined the prototype patch should dry-wrapped, again taking care to make sure the two layers overlay exactly. Now there will be a parrallel gap or overlap (or if lucky, and exact fit). An overlap requires a parallel shortening of the patch or vise versa. Next step is to wet a sample and wrap it. The gap or overlap (or lucky strike) should be parallel. Again make a parallel adjustment to the length. Once satisfied with the 'ends meeting', the 'end' end needs to be length corrected i.e. making sure it's the same length as the start end. That controls the evenness of the tail.

Now comes the hard part - getting the two layers to overlay accurately! Easy actually - just takes some practice.

Place wet patch on pad.
Place end of ogive (or what ever point along the nose section you want the patch to be) onto the start corner giving the core a slight angle to compensate for the 'taper'.
Begin the roll ( the start corner should pick up on its own).
Roll core over patch applying just the right amount of pressure both down onto the pad and away from the curve the core is trying to make.
When you see the second wrap not lining with the first, reverse process and try again, making the necessary adjustments.
Repeat above until you get it right. That will require changing to a new patch once or twice.
When the patch finally goes on 'straight' there may be an uneven gap in the ends. To close the gap, place wrapped boolit on smooth surface and roll with edge of finger applyin pressure only over gap area. Gap will close quickly.

At this point I do things differently. I place a small dab of paper glue under the trailing corner of the patch just up to the boolit heel. I then dry the patch. Once dry, I fold and twist the tail. My patch length leaves a tiny hole in the fold over the base.

More normal folks would just fold the tail while still wet! (I manage to tear them when I try that.:groner: But it is better).

A tip. Try to cut the patch down the middle of the line so that the ends can be seen - makes alignment and 'making ends meet' easier.

I use the grey packing foam one gets with electronic equipment. It has the right firmness and availability for me.

Whew! (Wipes brow):mrgreen:

Like I said - just ask and I'll try again!

The rolling sequence.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MakingEndsMeet-1.jpgDries pretty tight!

The wrapped wet patch with gap.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-118F.jpg

The now closed 'gap'.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-120F.jpgNot a good example of accurate overlay alignment.

6.5 mike
09-12-2009, 08:34 PM
Now thats cool. Your tapered patch rolling is almost the same as the way I wrap "standard" boolits. I'm using a piece of underlayment for floating floors as a pad. Has a slick side, wet patch, smooth out & roll. I hold the offside tail of the patch & as it rolls I'm able to adjust to keep the patch edge aligned. With the wet patch smoothed to the pad, it doesn't move around, almost like it's "glued down". I also use a 30 degree angle as this seems to work best for me.
When I tuck the tails I fold them under like wrapping the bottom of a bottle, then set them in a plastic ammo holder (dumpster diving) wrap down. I also lay something flat on top of the boolits & weigh it down. For a full tray a box of loaded 38s works well.
I figured the patch would have to be tapered to match the taper of the boolit otherwise it would not tighten as it dried. Very, very well though out. To bad it's metric. Just kidding, you would have suprized me if it wasn't.

303Guy
09-13-2009, 02:09 AM
I could have done the dimensions in Imperial but figured the actual values weren't important as they fit my particular boolit only.:mrgreen: Besides, I was being lazy again![smilie=1:

Wow! I have spent half the day making a stainless steel suppressor for a mate's 22-250. I'm not even sure it will work! (Of course it will work but just how well?)

6.5 mike
10-02-2009, 05:40 PM
I tried the 5 200gr wrapped boolits yesterday. Even with the nose as small as it drops I had paper hanging in the air. Think I scared the fella next to me, he had never seen a patched boolit before & did'nt know what to think until I explained it ot him LOL..
The 5 printed 1x1& 1/4 at 50 yards.

303Guy
10-02-2009, 06:04 PM
Great! What load were you using? Any idea of the velocity ballpark?

I have an idea I want to try out sometime - it involves overhanging the patch on the ogive to leave an 'eave'. The idea is for the blast of air at the muzzle to scoop under it and blow it off. It might work. Some folks get good results with a patch that overhangs the first drive band.

6.5 mike
10-02-2009, 07:34 PM
303Guy, the load was 19 & 1/2 grains of "new" 2400. I'm guessing the velocity is 1600 fps/ 1625 fps. No crony, not sure I want to join the " I shot my crony club".
I sized these to .309, no lube, but had to trim the nose back until I could chamber them. They were wrapped long & ended up about half way to the nose. They did lightly touch the riflings. The paper just floated in the air, so no pieces big enough to really check that I could find. It really was kool. Couldn't find any of the boolits in the dirt either, might try this in the backyard, sandy soil. Even at this speed the krag drives them deep. Didn't think to try these in my old Krag, I are a dummy. As big as the leade is this might be what it needs. The dummy for it is a 1/4 in longer then the one for the hiwall.

pdawg_shooter
10-05-2009, 08:15 AM
You have discovered the true beauty of paper patching. Any bullet can be tailored to any rifle. Difference in throat, leade, or bore diameter can be adjusted for. Jacketed bullet velocity and accuracy can be obtained. The bullet can be soft enough for hunting without leading and the paper supports the bullet during acceleration and protects the base from the hot gas and pressure. It just dont get any better than this!

6.5 mike
10-05-2009, 09:18 PM
Poured a few with this mold today. Cast 65 with the double tape setup, let the mold cool & pulled the tape off one side. Boolits dropped at 0.2993 ( avg of 5 ) on the nose, 0.309 on the body. Seemed strange it didn't change but I'm new to the "beagling thing". These avg. 199.8 in weight so real close to what lee claims. 0.309 sizer smoothed out the high spots & crimped the gas checks.
Now these will fit the hiwall & 03a3 & patched up should fit my jap. Need to get/make the right sizer & try pp'ing this diameter to see what else I can make it fit.
I do have a 700 BDL 30-06 that was my dads, it might have had 100 "j" word bullets fired in it. Hummmmmmm- what do ya'll think?

pdawg_shooter
10-06-2009, 08:06 AM
My 06 really likes the Lyman 300466 sized .3015 and patched with 16# printer paper. I load it over 57 or 58gr of AA4350.