Please help me identify this muzzleloader.

[Mark]

I was just gifted a muzzleloading percussion cap rifle from my Uncle. It hung on his wall for many years (probably 15 years) as part of his "decor" and was never fired. He can't recall much about the rifle because he never intended to shoot it. It has "Muzzleloading Armoury Spain Plainsman Rifle 50cal" stamped on the barrel along with what appears to be a serial number. It has a double set trigger. Who made this rifle and what is the twist rate? I am very much new to the muzzleloaders and I have little knowledge of these arms. I do hope to hunt with the rifle this year if I can learn to shoot it well enough. Any other advice would certainly help.

Thanks,

mark

[jim4065]

You can measure the twist by putting a tight brush down the barrel and mark a vertical line on tape placed around the rod at the muzzle. Pull the rod out and watch the tape revolve. When it gets to one complete revolution, stop and measure the distance from the tape to the muzzle. If the barrel is too short to get a 360 degree turn just double the 1/2 turn measurement.

Any chance you could post a picture? Richland Arms made a Plainsman, but I'm sure others did also.

[Mark]

You can measure the twist by putting a tight brush down the barrel and mark a vertical line on tape placed around the rod at the muzzle. Pull the rod out and watch the tape revolve. When it gets to one complete revolution, stop and measure the distance from the tape to the muzzle. If the barrel is too short to get a 360 degree turn just double the 1/2 turn measurement.

Any chance you could post a picture? Richland Arms made a Plainsman, but I'm sure others did also.

Thanks for the help. I will try that method to get the twist. No, I can not post a picture. I am computer illiterate and on dial up.
Thanks,
Mark


EDIT - I tried the brush method. Does 1 in 42 (or 43) sound about right? It turned one half time in 21.5 inches.

[jim4065]

Thanks for the help. I will try that method to get the twist. No, I can not post a picture. I am computer illiterate and on dial up.
Thanks,
Mark


EDIT - I tried the brush method. Does 1 in 42 (or 43) sound about right? It turned one half time in 21.5 inches.

1 in 42 or 43 sounds just fine - repeating the test a couple of times will build confidence in your measurement. At that twist rate I would think it would do well with a "Ball-et" as Buffalo Bullets called their half-ball. A friend who's into muzzle-loading (and experienced) would be a big plus here. He can take you through the first trip to the range.

I'd make real sure of the condition of the rifle before putting much powder in it. Besides obvious pitting or a loose nipple, you can get a pretty good idea of the capability of the barrel by measuring the width across the flats and compare it to the bore. For example -I like to see the barrel OAW be at least twice the bore size (in this case a 1" OAW) before putting much of a charge in it. Also look for proof marks. The Spanish have proof testing for BP arms and if it doesn't have proof stamps you could be dealing with a "replica" which was never intended to be fired. Does it have a "patent breech" (with a snail) or a drum and nipple?

Before putting any powder in it I would check to see if the "airway" is clear by popping a few caps on the nipple. Hold the muzzle against some leaves or dust - does the barrel emit a puff of gas to move the leaves or dust? This has to work before you try to load any powder. You can try a .490 round ball and lubed thin patch with a light charge - maybe 40 grains of FFg or Pyrodex RS to start, then work up from there. The ball must be rammed all the way down on top of the powder. No air gap. Don't capp until you're ready to shoot. Be sure to take it slowly - you want to be confident in the safety of the rifle before stressing it much.

Lots more - but if this is your first time with a muzzle loader I'd sure like to see you get decent instruction before firing that first shot.

[Doc_Stihl]

Make sure it's not loaded first.

I've heard a few stories of wall hangers being loaded and over the mantle for decades with a charge and ball seated.

[docone31]

A lot of people who get a muzzle loader, and put it up on display, oil their barrel.
Great for displaying, but miserable for shooting.
Get the oil out!
Put the nipple hole, not with the nipple on, in hot water, use your ramrod and swab, and pull in and out soapy hot water.
Also, make sure your nipple is free of oil.
After it drys off, it should be fairly quick with hot water, use your lube to protect the barrel, inside and out, from rusting.
If there is oil in the bore, and it is fired, a little flake of goop will form inside the nipple. This will prevent the flame from connecting with the powder.
If there is any lube on the hammer, that prevents hammer fall, and inside the nipple, that prevents flame also.
I/42, probably 1/48 is a good fire anything rifle.
Personally, I like the Lee R.E.A.L. I put some grit on the lands for a couple of shots, then lube and fire. 60gns. A RB is good also. Start with bore size, a .490, then get a .495 down the road. Use pillow ticking available at WalMart. One yard lasts a lifetime, and my wife and myself fire a lot at the range.
You gonna like the rifle. It is a good wall hanger, but fun to shoot.
Take it easy, get a powder measure, and have a ball.
I like Remington Caps. I also use CCI caps, both magnum, and regular.
Watch dry firing. It makes a ridge on the nipple and the cap does not sit down correctly.
Misfire city.
Clean it directly after firing. Use lots of hot water. Lube it, and use it again.
Enjoy.

[RayinNH]

I have one such rifle, a .72 cal. that had a 100 grain charge with a patch but no ball when I got it...Ray

[Mark]

A friend who's into muzzle-loading (and experienced) would be a big plus here. He can take you through the first trip to the range.

For example -I like to see the barrel OAW be at least twice the bore size (in this case a 1" OAW) before putting much of a charge in it. Also look for proof marks. The Spanish have proof testing for BP arms and if it doesn't have proof stamps you could be dealing with a "replica" which was never intended to be fired. Does it have a "patent breech" (with a snail) or a drum and nipple?

.

Thanks again. I think I wil go to the local gunstore for some tips. Also, I am pretty sure there is a fellow or two at my gunclub who are into these sort of muzzleloaders.
The barrel is octagon a touch under 1 inch
Proof marks? After closer inspection, I found 2 symbols (one looks like a shied and one has 3 rings touching), 700Kp/cm (squared), H (dot) 2. Is that it?
Thanks,
mark

[Mark]

I checked the barrel with compressed air. It is clear. Should the hook in the back of the barrel (the breach end) come out to look down the barrel? It looks as if it may threaded but I don't want to force the issue.Mark

[jim4065]

You'll get various opinions here. Personally - I never pull the breach plug. It's too easy to screw something up - and there's very little profit in removing it. The hook says it has a patent breach - which pretty well rules out a replica (along with your proof mark).

[docone31]

You don't want to pull the breech plug.
It can be done, but it is a pain. The hooked breech is for cleaning. Remove the one, or two wedges, remove the ramrod, and put the end in a bucket of hot water.
Most plains rifles were not brass shod. Replicas are.
What type of bolster does it have?
Your barrel is probably 15/16". Most of the imports were. Chances are real good, your rear sight is either fixed, or adjusted with a single screw. The front sight is most likely a two piece unit, either soldered, or peened. Windage is adjusted by tapping either the rear sight, last, or the front sight, first. Height on the fixed rear is adjusted by filing down the front blade.
Does it have a toe plate?
That also helps to identify it.

[Mark]

You don't want to pull the breech plug.
It can be done, but it is a pain. The hooked breech is for cleaning. Remove the one, or two wedges, remove the ramrod, and put the end in a bucket of hot water.
Most plains rifles were not brass shod. Replicas are.
What type of bolster does it have?
Your barrel is probably 15/16". Most of the imports were. Chances are real good, your rear sight is either fixed, or adjusted with a single screw. The front sight is most likely a two piece unit, either soldered, or peened. Windage is adjusted by tapping either the rear sight, last, or the front sight, first. Height on the fixed rear is adjusted by filing down the front blade.
Does it have a toe plate?
That also helps to identify it.

Thank you all again.
OK-I won't pull the breech plug. I will remove the one wedge and soak it in soapy water.
What does brass shod and toe plate mean (boy I am a rookie-I will be bullet bub forever).
The rear sight looks quite modern. It is fully adjustable for windage and elevation with separate screws. It is screwed onto the top of the barrel and the front sight is a post that is fit into a dovetail groove into the front of the barrel.
Mark

[docone31]

Mark, you hang out here. We will teach you some great stuff!!
Go find a roofing contractor. Lots of lead there. Roof Boots!!!!!
It sounds like you have a Modern, Plains rifle. Good shootin, easy to clean, reliable.
Get some molds, round ball, R.E.A.L.
You will get used to it real fast, and get some great shootin in.

[RayinNH]

Mark, brass shod, meaning it has brass hardware, butt plate, trigger guard etc. The toe plate is the plate on the underside of the stock that meets up with the butt plate, for protection of the stock, it also sometimes hides a latch release on some rifles that have a patch box, usually long rifles...Ray

[mooman76]

Your ML sounds similar to one of the older CVA or Traditions rifles. They were imported from Spain and didn't have their name on the rifles but there were allot of clones out there and allot of them used the same generic parts. If you can't get more info on it I would pretty much treat it as such as they were lower end as far as price and quality goes. I'm not saying it is bad or anything like that. I have several and they are good guns just not top of the line. When you remove your barrel, you might find some more markings on it. I believe you can go to CVA's web site and they have a manual you can print. It has a minimal amount of information that you can read on how to load and the function of the BP guns.
You probubly have a 1-48 twist but anything close to that is a good inbetween twist so it should shoot both RBs and conicals well. When you take it out to load fire a couple caps whith the gun empty. It dries the barrel out and decreases your chances of having a misfire your first shot.

[Mark]

Mark, brass shod, meaning it has brass hardware, butt plate, trigger guard etc. The toe plate is the plate on the underside of the stock that meets up with the butt plate, for protection of the stock, it also sometimes hides a latch release on some rifles that have a patch box, usually long rifles...Ray

Thanks again. It has a brass trigger guard and a brass butt stock. I went to my local gunstore today. I don't think they were any more help than you guys. I did buy some Pyrodex and accessories. I have what I need to shoot and, God willing, that will happen Sunday evening. They had a "pack" made by TC in their clearence item section that included a powder measure, bullet starter, and some saboted bullets. Can I try these bullets safely or should I just stick to the RB's and R.E.A.L.S.'s? Also, when I am done shooting and I finish cleaning the gun, what should I put in the bore to keep it from rusting? docone31 said "After it drys off, it should be fairly quick with hot water, use your lube to protect the barrel, inside and out, from rusting." Is that Bore Butter?

Also, because all I could do this week was read, I found this:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/cva_muzzleloader_blow-up.htm
Is this just internet garbage or have some of you heard of this?

Thanks again and I hope to have a range report soon,
Mark

[mooman76]

You can use sabots safe enough but they probably won't shoot good in your's. Not tight enough twist which sabots require. You can use a light coat of oil or the bore buter to coat your barrel. It seems to me I recall something about that CVA ML but I don't remember and it was with inlines. CVA did have a recall with some of them. You shouldn't have a problem. If there was a problem as bad as they are saying we would have heard more on this. Some people try stupid things with ML's and think they can do things like add smokeless powder to a load and get away with it.

[Mark]

I shot the gun Sunday afternoon. I had a good time shooting (not a good time cleaning). Accuracy was good but I wasn't shooting a long distance. I was just trying to familiarize myself with the gun. I see the benefit of swabbing after every second shot. Most of my shooting was at 80 grains of Pyrodex RS. I certainly see the need for a powder horn! Thanks all fo rthe help,
mark

[jim4065]

Cleaning seemed like a miserable job the first couple of times I did it. Doesn't bother me at all now. I use a brush and flush with warm water. Dry patch a couple of times, then one oily patch. Wipe down and dry the outside, then another oily patch. Never a speck of rust - but I still check a couple of times a week or two later. Only have one rifle with a full length forestock, but it's a caplock so I use a tube from the nipple to a bucket of warm water to keep water from getting under the wood. The only hassle is that the tube keeps "disappearing". :roll:

[pietro]

[Most of my shooting was at 80 grains of Pyrodex RS. I certainly see the need for a powder horn! ]

It may be a bit more expensive, but more convenient, to buy/make a set of .50 cal speedloaders for pre-filling with powder on one end and the boolit in the other.

.

[Dustdevil]

I have one of these rifles, almost exactly like Mark's. I inherited it from my wife's uncle, who never shot it. In fact, the kit wasn't even finished, and I had to finish assembly and refinish the stock (flaking and bare in some spots). This one has proof marks all over the right side of the barrel, partly obscured behind the stock. One looks like a small stoppered container with an "X" in the middle, one is the three rings connected to each other, and text: 700Kp/cm^2, which I take to mean it is proofed to 700 kilopond/sq cm. (9956 psi). Also has G*2 at the end. Lots of brass, and a fairly fancy trigger guard, all brass, with a figured raised tang. Double set trigger, and it comes apart rather easily with the wedge pin halfway up the forend. Barrel appears to be something like a 400 series stainless???? Slight points of staining, but no discernable rust. You'd think after all these years, it might have a patina, but none. Just some finger marks that COULD be wood stain or could be some old slight corrosion. Front sight is only set in the dovetail, not brazed or peened. It's a blade front sight made of brass stock. Rear sight elevation is handled with a set screw, but no obvious windage adjustment. Lock has a case-hardened like finish on it. Don't know if it's actually case hardened or not. Overall, just a touch on the rough side for finish and fit, but workable. Been thinking about getting set up with a shooting kit and some Pyrodex to go shoot this one. Nice to run across this old thread and gain a little advice before starting.

[Mark]

Wow. It has been a long time since I was on this board so imagine my surprise to get an email update on this post.
Dustdevil,
I have not fire the gun in this original post in probably a year and half. It is no fault of the gun. I just don't have time to shoot this gun. I found that the gun liked 80 grains of Pyrodex under a Maxi Hunter bullet. However, I never got to go hunting with the gun. There just were not enough hours in the season to take the gun out. My gun club has a group that shoots bp on Sundays during the winter months. I used the gun with those fellows for a few years. I ended up shooting rb over 50 grains of Pyrodex for paper punching. The abuse from the other shooters for using Pyrodex and not bp was tough! My gun just liked Pyrodex. If I had more time, I would still be shooting that gun.
Good luck with new acquisition.

[mooman76]

I know the feeling. I was shooting Pyrodex also and they didn't even know until I let it slip. I didn't think it a big deal but they did. Guess what my new name was?

[lobogunleather]

Be very, very careful if you use a powder horn. Never load directly from the horn to the barrel, just in case there is a lingering spark or smoldering residue in the bore. That could ruin your whole day, probably cost a few fingers (if not your whole hand), and the horn would function much like a hand grenade right in front of your face.

[Dustdevil]

I am interested in taking all precautions with this, as I have not shot muzzleloading firearms since I was about 10 years old. And even then, I didn't load them. My buddy's dad did. Bought some supplies, but have not yet had the chance to go out and shoot. Will likely wait until it gets just a bit cooler in the desert to head out for that. Thought I'd try a brass CVA cylinder flask that has a measure built in and a trap door to isolate the measured powder from the rest of the flask. Separate measure is probably best of all, but hoping this will do until I decide if I'm going to do this on a regular basis. Bought some Pyrodex RS on the recommendation of Bass Pro guys, and I'll likely start with 50 grains to be on the safe side. Some cleaning supplies, and I also bought some Maxi-Hunter projectiles. Despite the small amount of roughness in finish, this seems like a very solid firearm. Will report back on how it goes first time out.

[mooman76]

NEVER put powder in directly from the flask. That includes the ones with the closer trap style door. It turns the flask into a bomb. First load is ok but after that you could have smoldering powder in the barrel. Some will scoff at this as it is very unlikely it would happen but it has happened and people have lost fingers and hands. If you can find someone with experience, to take you shooting, that would help you out allot.

[Dustdevil]

Yeah, been thinking about that, and I might just use an old bullet casing or an old empty shotgun shell or something. Accidents are not an option.

[mooman76]

You can do that or buy a adjustable measure. They are fairly cheap and that way you can try out different loads.

[Dustdevil]

OK. Finally got a chance to take the muzzle loader out and shoot it. I did use an adjustable measure, the small one. Not in any hurry to load, and I wanted to sneak up on larger loads with no chance of over-doing it. It shot fairly well, although in my ignorance, I simply reloaded time after time without clearing the burnt powder residue out of the breech. So, it misfired several times. Primers worked flawlessly, but didn't always ignite the powder charge. The last time, I simply waited a while, then extracted the ball manually and scrubbed out the unfired powder and wad/patch. I do have a couple of questions for the experienced shooters here, though. The ball (Maxi-Hunter) will not fit down the bore with the patch wrapped under it and around the sides. There simply is no room. So, I dropped the powder charge, started the patch, then tamped down the ball on top of the patch and powder as consistently as I could. Is this normal? The whole thing was fairly greasy with bore butter, and it seemed to fire very accurately right out of the gate and through the day. Targets at 50 yards were easy to hit (bowling pins, etc), and a few targets from a couple hundred yards just needed adjustment for the low velocity and resulting drop. Came fairly close to busting a few standard clay targets on a hillside about 225 yards away. Set trigger worked well enough, and the half-cock and full-cock functions worked just fine as well.

Also curious as to the nipple vs the primers/caps. The primers are much larger than the nipples, and always in danger of falling off if I'm not careful. Shouldn't that fit snugly? Am I using the wrong primers or maybe the wrong nipple? Also, seems that every few shots I should be attempting to clear some of the burnt powder residue out of the breech to keep that flame path clear. Is that typical? I am using CCI 301 caps, 50-70 grains of Pyrodex RS, and pre-lubed CVA patches. I used hot soapy water (Dawn diswashing detergent) to clean it all up, with a cotton cleaning jag, which seemed to work very well.

Anything stand out as particularly counterproductive here?

[mooman76]

Conicals(maxi or minie) are not suppose to be patched. Some people put a patch under it, not around or a over powder wad. Sometimes it helps with accuracy and the maxi should fit tight. The minie should slide down the bore fairly easy but still fit snug. Most recommend .001-.002 under bore size.
Your caps should fit snug so they don't fall off. I'm not familiar with the CCI 301, it may possibly be a musket cap. Does it look like a top hat with tabs on the side? The most common sizes are #10 usually for pistol, #11 for rifle and the larger,musket caps. You should be using the #11 cap which also comes in a magnum cap these days but with caps sometimes being hard to find these days you can change the nipple to the size of the cap and it will still work. Also different manufacturers have different specs so one brand of #11 may fir better than another brand. You can put the nipple on a drill and carefully use a file or sand the nipple to fit better. Also giving a light squeeze to a loose cap to make it fir better. Everything else you're doing sounds good and as you found out the bore butter will foul up the barrel fairly quick and it will need swabbing occasionally with a damp, not wet swab. Alcohol or plain water work fine for that.

[mooman76]

I forgot to add it's better to just buy the material you need from a cloth store and make your own patched. Cheaper and the prelubed patches sometimes you don't know what they lubed it with or how old they are. The lube can break down the cloth fibers over time or the lube can dry out.