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303Guy
08-31-2009, 09:23 PM
Having been inspired by pillardrill, I got started with making a swage die to form bullets for my hornet using 22 LR case for jackets. Well, my first attempt showed some promise but in trying to get the shape right I managed to ruin it![smilie=b: (As we often do).[smilie=1:

But my second attempt went much better. Here is the result.

The formed jacket with lead cast in
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SwagedJacket.jpg

Swaged in my new die
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SwagedBullet.jpg

After Sizing in the same die that formed the jacket
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SwagedSizedBullet.jpg

The loaded round
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/LoadedCartridge.jpg

The recovered bullet
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/FiredBullet.jpg

This bullet weighed in at 67gr - pretty close to what I wanted. (I can adjust it down but not up and then not by much).

Powder charge - 10.8gr Lil'Gun (The Holy Grain of hornet powders).

Penetration into compacte wet rags - 8 inches (220mm).

Weight retention - 68% (46gr)

There was no core separation! (The core is not visible in the pic but is in there).

So, thanks to pillardrill, I have a new toy!:drinks:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/webowdown2u.gif pillardrill

elk hunter
08-31-2009, 09:40 PM
Reading this post made me think. Years ago a friend asked me to make a collet to hold de-rimmed 22 LR cases in a case trimmer so he could shorten them to make lighter bullets for his Hornet. It worked well and allowed him to make any shorter length he wanted. The same thing could be done with 22 magnum cases, or any other jacket. If I ever run out of commercial Hornet and Bee bullets I may have to go back and make one for myself.

wonderwolf
09-01-2009, 02:06 PM
Reading this post made me think. Years ago a friend asked me to make a collet to hold de-rimmed 22 LR cases in a case trimmer so he could shorten them to make lighter bullets for his Hornet. It worked well and allowed him to make any shorter length he wanted. The same thing could be done with 22 magnum cases, or any other jacket. If I ever run out of commercial Hornet and Bee bullets I may have to go back and make one for myself.

I've thought about something like this as well looking the trimmer I have . I just need to get a junk collet for the trimmer and modify it for adjustable length!

pillardrill
09-01-2009, 03:24 PM
303,

nice looking bullets you made, well done.

Regards.

Pillardrill

303Guy
09-01-2009, 04:45 PM
Thanks. I do need to spend more time honing my skills - I have a long ways to go still.[smilie=1:

I was quite impressed with the terminal performance of that bullet. Not too bad penetration and rather good expansion and no core separation.

I made a two-diameter sizer die for my 303 Brit paper patch castings. It is fairly good size wise but needs a slightly different step down taper (to make me happy). So now I want to make another but I am finding the propsect quite daunting. It's flipping difficult! :mrgreen:

How does one cut the segmenents in a collet? (I made a pair of router collets for my brother and am stuck at the segmenting stage. I made him a temporary one with hacksaw cuts).

Another question - that groove left by the rim on the case, is it important to remove that? Or can I just leave it as it is?

mike in co
09-01-2009, 05:07 PM
Thanks. I do need to spend more time honing my skills - I have a long ways to go still.[smilie=1:

I was quite impressed with the terminal performance of that bullet. Not too bad penetration and rather good expansion and no core separation.

I made a two-diameter sizer die for my 303 Brit paper patch castings. It is fairly good size wise but needs a slightly different step down taper (to make me happy). So now I want to make another but I am finding the propsect quite daunting. It's flipping difficult! :mrgreen:

How does one cut the segmenents in a collet? (I made a pair of router collets for my brother and am stuck at the segmenting stage. I made him a temporary one with hacksaw cuts).

Another question - that groove left by the rim on the case, is it important to remove that? Or can I just leave it as it is?

very thin mill blades......very very thin....on a mandrel.......could be done in a lathe with the crossfeed as a bed feed......

mike in co

303Guy
09-01-2009, 05:37 PM
very thin mill blades......Thanks for that. :drinks: I think I know where to look for them.

pillardrill
09-02-2009, 08:25 AM
The Groove in the bullet can be used to hold lube. In any case it does no harm.

jdgabbard
09-02-2009, 09:01 AM
Just out of curiosity... What kinda accuracy do you guys get with your swaged 22 boolits? Are these minute of paper plate?

shooterg
09-02-2009, 11:48 AM
The 50 to 56 gr. bullets made on my Corbin press with Blackmon dies shoot as well as commercial out to 200 in my guns. Don't have dies to make a boat tail yet, but they are very effective on groundhogs at that distance. I am picky, I segregate cases by headstamp, double core swage, and weigh the finished products when I want the best performance. On the other hand, I've loaded a bunch of "culls" and still shot with good success. Actual performance - most "lots" will keep 'em well under 1" , that's 10 shot groups, not 3, not 5 like some call a group. Am interested in how well 303 guys stuff shoots !

BIG GUN
09-02-2009, 04:14 PM
Years ago I used to make 87G 25 cal. boolits using spent 22 lr cases. I still have the dies. As I recall, they shot very well.

303Guy
09-02-2009, 04:40 PM
Just out of curiosity... What kinda accuracy do you guys get with your swaged 22 boolits? Are these minute of paper plate? jdgabbard, I haven't tested any yet - I'm still developing my die. But this is what a fellow shooter on another forum has to say;


I used them to win a World Championship in IHMSA Field Pistol Production this year in Texas.
My 8.5gr load of H110 and 65gr rimfire jacketed bullets shoots around 3/4" at 100 yards with a 18x scope, from sandbags. Out of the Hornet.

So, well' see what I can get with them.


Years ago I used to make 87G 25 cal. boolits using spent 22 lr cases.BIG GUN, I have been thinking about that. How well did they shoot? I might go that route if I can't get the desired performance with paper patched 25 boolits.

Red River Rick
09-02-2009, 05:14 PM
303Guy:

"I used them to win a World Championship in IHMSA Field Pistol Production this year in Texas. "

No Doubt! But, did he say who made the tooling, Custom or himself? And, I doubt he used copper tubing or spent brass for jackets.

RRR

303Guy
09-02-2009, 05:41 PM
Red River Rick

He says he does. I shall ask him for pics.


I have been using the 22lr jackets to make a 65gr lead tip for my hornet. I'm using 8.5gr of H110. I used them to win a World Championship in IHMSA Field Pistol Production this year in Texas.

Speer started out making boolits from spent 22LR cases.

Red River Rick
09-02-2009, 05:57 PM
303Guy:

Well, that's great, if he's using spent .22 brass for jackets! It just proves the potential of homemade swaged bullets. Right ON!

RRR

JohnM
09-02-2009, 07:01 PM
My bullets I make out of 22 RF cases are shooting somewhere between 1/2 to 1 inch at 100 meters. It depends on who is shooting them and what rifle. We’ve found the 222’s are more accurate than the 233.

One other point, where I get my brass from, they only use Lapua super club which I’ve found the brass is easier to swage than Eely which the punch breaks though the base on a few.

John

sagacious
09-02-2009, 07:25 PM
...
Another question - that groove left by the rim on the case, is it important to remove that? Or can I just leave it as it is?
303,
Good job with the swaged 22lr-jacket bullet!

In the long run, you may wish to adjust your punch so that residual fold in the case is completely ironed-out. By itself, it probably causes no harm. But you may find that not all cases will retain the same amount of groove, and thus jacket lengths will vary widely, and core seating can sometimes become a hassle.

Increase the size of your internal punch so it's a tight slip-fit into fired 22lr brass, and consider drawing in two steps, the first step only unfolds the 22lr case head into a "domed-rivet" shape, and the next draw step irons-out the full case. Boil the cases between the two steps. The first "doming" draw step will crush loose most of the spent primer compound in the case rim, and allow it to be removed far better than just boiling/washing before any drawing takes place. Use a worn punch for the first draw, and a clean full-size punch for the second draw.

Hope this helps, keep up the good work!

yondering
09-02-2009, 07:50 PM
Swaged in my new die
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SwagedBullet.jpg

How did you cut the nose profile in your die? Did you use a D reamer? More details and dimensions please, I'm strongly considering having a friend machine a set of dies like this.



After Sizing in the same die that formed the jacket
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SwagedSizedBullet.jpg


What diameter are they before sizing down?

Do you have any trouble with the cores being loose after sizing (brass springback more than lead)?

303Guy
09-03-2009, 02:21 AM
Thanks for all the input and encouragement. :drinks:

It's encouraging to learn that good results are possible!
Now for me to get it right.[smilie=1:


Do you have any trouble with the cores being loose after sizing (brass springback more than lead)? I have only fired that one bullet and the jacket did not separate. I did not think of springback when choosing to size after swaging. I hope the internal pressure will keep the jacket tight. I think I mentioned I cast the core into the case. I'm using normal cast boolit alloy.

I am having trouble getting the swaged bullet out the die. I went back to my first die and reworked it to give a much blunter ogive. The bullet ejects from that one easily.

Thanks for the tips, sagacious. I haven't tried annealing before drawing the brass.

Today I started losing track of what I was doing so I put things away for a while. I ended up casting a 60gr boolit using the swage die as a mold. It's quite short for its weight! I loaded it up and fired it. Not much left to recover - it was a full tilt load. Took me a while to get all the lead out the bore!:mrgreen:

sagacious
09-03-2009, 04:23 AM
Sounds good 303! I don't anneal before swaging, or the cases won't come off my draw punch. I boil 'em after the first partial draw to get the grit out, but they still need to be annealed after the final drawing. The grit in the case can really wear on the draw punch unless it gets removed. After the draw punch gets worn the crease won't get ironed out fully, and it's time for a new punch.

I prefer to process a whole heck of a bunch at one time-- just makes it more convenient when bullet-forming later on.

Keep us posted as your project progresses.

ETG
09-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Just out of curiosity... What kinda accuracy do you guys get with your swaged 22 boolits? Are these minute of paper plate?

Haven't worked up a load yet but loaded 50 up one grain below max with surplus WC846 (55gn using Blackmon dies). Shot a 12x scoped varmint AR off a rolled up blanket on hood of my truck - 10 shot groups were 1 1/2" at 100yds. Would have been sub-moa if I would have benched it.

303Guy
09-04-2009, 04:01 AM
... rolled up blanket on hood of my truck - 10 shot groups were 1 1/2" at 100yds.This is very encouraging! I will have to get my die making skills up to speed before I can hope to get anywhere close.

My next stage in die development involves a two piece die with a pushout punch. So far it is working great. (The internal dimensions are not quite right yet but it was dinner/beer time!:mrgreen:)

Here it is. On the left is the ejector punch. The bullet under the end-piece is a fired one I reformed.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-291F.jpg

These are the tools I made me dies with. The top one is some bit I have, which I used to finish my first die, the bottom one is a drill bit I shaped on a grind stone, which I used to make my second and third dies as well as the ejector punch. (Shaping a drill bit is not as easy as it looks!:mrgreen:)

303Guy
09-04-2009, 06:25 PM
The die set is almost finished. It needs a final lapping of the mating faces, then off to be hardened!

Here is a sequence of the operation.

The modified die set. (The ejector punch now goes all the way through since the main die body is parallel)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-298F.jpg

Swaging the bullet.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-300F.jpg(It only looks skew).

The die set opened.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-301F.jpg

Ejecting the swaging.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-302F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-303F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-299F.jpg

The bullet and a swaged boolit.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-297F.jpg

The visible ring on the ogive will be gone when the die set gets its final lapping, polishing and hardening.

This is the shaped drill bit I used to make the die set.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-295F.jpg

yondering
09-04-2009, 07:34 PM
How much force does it take to eject the swaged bullet? I'm thinking of building a die set that would function in a Lyman Orange or RCBS Rockchucker press, and use the primer arm to push the ejector rod on the downstroke (handle upstroke). Does your die set require to much ejection force for something like that?

303Guy
09-05-2009, 12:30 AM
The swaging comes out quite easily with my latest dies set. It still takes a fair force to swage the bullet. A strong redoading press should do it. Mine can't.

pillardrill
09-05-2009, 08:09 AM
303,

to shape a drill bit I place it in a drill and whislt it's turning grind the tip against the grinder. Then I relieve the cutting edges, works better than I ever expected. How did you shape yours ?

BIG GUN
09-05-2009, 02:48 PM
jdgabbard, I haven't tested any yet - I'm still developing my die. But this is what a fellow shooter on another forum has to say;



So, well' see what I can get with them.

BIG GUN, I have been thinking about that. How well did they shoot? I might go that route if I can't get the desired performance with paper patched 25 boolits.
As I recall, 2 moa was pretty common. I may have to make someore and try them.

303Guy
09-05-2009, 04:44 PM
pillardrill , I shaped it by hand on the grinder. I never thought of spinning it with a drill!:groner: I'll try that trick for my next one!:mrgreen:

After doing the 'final' reaming I find there is stil a 'defect' in my die![smilie=b: I really need stop and think before jumping in!:mrgreen: I didn't understand what was causing the 'ring' on the ogive. Now I realise it's a mismatch between the two halves!:oops:

BIG GUN, could you post pics of the die sie up? How does the 22LR case get expanded?

nicholst55
09-06-2009, 07:32 AM
My bullets I make out of 22 RF cases are shooting somewhere between 1/2 to 1 inch at 100 meters. It depends on who is shooting them and what rifle. Weve found the 222s are more accurate than the 233.

John

John: any idea why that is? Different twist rates, or just a more accurate rifle?

JohnM
09-07-2009, 05:22 PM
Million dollar question….

I think the 222 case is more accurate than the 223 for a start at close range. I think the case still holds one or two BR records?

As far as twist goes, the idea is to go as slow as possible, as long as the bullet is stabilised. From example a 1:9 isn’t as good as 1:12 for the 53gr bullets I make that are mainly used for Rabbit shooting.

When out at the range recently, we found coating the bullets in hBN lowered the group size by over half in rifles that we have had larger groups in the past? Since then we’ve found in rifles that shoot this bullet very well, it didn’t make any difference we could detect. We believe the coating give better internal ballistics in faster twist barrels?


John

303Guy
09-07-2009, 06:25 PM
... recently, we found coating the bullets in hBN lowered the group size by over half in rifles that we have had larger groups in the past?A possible explanation for this effect is cacket heating due to bore friction. This could conceivably expand the jacket loose on the core. I have found evidence of this heating - actually heat staining the jacket and stopping the bullet in the bore (very light loads). The bullet is then easily pushed out with a cleaning rod. Some bullets that did not stop in the bore actually melted the synthetic fibre catch cloth!

yondering
09-09-2009, 07:23 PM
303guy, what steel did you use for those dies, and what did you do for heat treating them?

454PB
09-09-2009, 10:17 PM
Lighter swaged bullets for the Hornet are easily made using .22 short cases. Mine weigh 45 grains.

dsmjon
09-09-2009, 11:29 PM
So that press **** sure isn't a Rockchucker...? Sorry, I'm just lurking & learning here..

303Guy
09-10-2009, 05:11 AM
:mrgreen:
... what steel did you use for those dies, ...I used high tensile bolts - 8.8 grade, not carbon steel capscrews. The only heat treatment so far is on the ejector and that was by heating to dull red with a gas flame and water quenching. The other bits are still being 'developed' (that means boo boo's are still being fixed! [smilie=1: ) I tried slightly modifying the first ejector but it was too hard, so I made a new one.


Lighter swaged bullets for the Hornet are easily made using .22 short cases. I don't have a supply of those but I do have a trick for making lighter bullets with long rifle cases. I'll have to make a sample and post a pic - tomorrow maybe. My interest is actually in as heavy as possible! Of course I still want a reasonable velocity - terminal performance is an issue (the hornet is to me a good training rifle because it forces me to think through each shot to make it work and I have had better success than my companions with their more powerful cartridges. Besides, it's a great cartridge!)


So that press **** sure isn't a Rockchucker...?No, it's an oddball, not very well made, unheard of press. I actually used a bench vise to swage the bullet shown! I am planning a swage press and am still developing swage dies. I have had so much fun with my hornet but have had no success with casting for it that I put it away. Patching a 22 cal is a bit difficult for my clumsy fingers! But swaging using 22LR cases holds promise.

MightyThor
09-10-2009, 07:25 PM
pillardrill , I shaped it by hand on the grinder. I never thought of spinning it with a drill!:groner: I'll try that trick for my next one!:mrgreen:

After doing the 'final' reaming I find there is stil a 'defect' in my die![smilie=b: I really need stop and think before jumping in!:mrgreen: I didn't understand what was causing the 'ring' on the ogive. Now I realise it's a mismatch between the two halves!:oops:

BIG GUN, could you post pics of the die sie up? How does the 22LR case get expanded?

303, on my setups the 22 case is expanded during the core seating process and the pointing die just maintains the .224 size. I have regularly heard of folks melting cores into the jacket and always wondered how they got their bullets to the right diameter cause I have never seen a pointing die that would do both.

When we used the same jackets for the 243 and the 25 cal We had to bell the mouth in order to start the core and then quit pushing before the core seeped past the punch. Jackets still expanded without much problem.

BIG GUN
09-10-2009, 09:43 PM
pillardrill , I shaped it by hand on the grinder. I never thought of spinning it with a drill!:groner: I'll try that trick for my next one!:mrgreen:

After doing the 'final' reaming I find there is stil a 'defect' in my die![smilie=b: I really need stop and think before jumping in!:mrgreen: I didn't understand what was causing the 'ring' on the ogive. Now I realise it's a mismatch between the two halves!:oops:

BIG GUN, could you post pics of the die sie up? How does the 22LR case get expanded?

I dont have pic cabability. I drive the case through a die that irons out the rim, then when I swage the bullet it expands to the caliber.

303Guy
09-11-2009, 04:27 AM
Thanks for that, MightyThor & BIG GUN. I had not thought of that! Mmmm... That gives me something to work on!:drinks:
(More fun things to play around with! :bigsmyl2: )

303Guy
09-29-2009, 03:17 PM
Yondering, I see some unanswered questions you asked me! My appologies. I must have forgotten to post the reply. By now I have forgotten the pre-sizing swaged bullet diameter. I'll have to make one up and measure it.

303Guy
10-02-2009, 01:37 AM
Right, Yondering, I made a bullet to measure and here it is; .234 - not bad since the die was made using a modified 6mm (.236) drill bit.