Barrel break in for cast

[Wayne S]

I'm getting a new Savage barrel for my rifle and it will be a strictually cast bullet weapon.
With it being a NEW factory barrel are there any special break-in procedures for cast as listed for jacketed BR barrels in Precission Shooting and other places ?

[Shiloh]

My guess is that it will take a while with cast but others will know for sure. I had a guy put a new Douglas Premium barrel on my RI 1903 Springfield. I broke it in with 152 and 173 gr Military Surplus jacketed bullets from Jeff Bartlett. They used to be cheap and with an in-exhaustable supply. No More, they're gone!!

I shot three strings of 25, cleaned between strings, and called it broke in. Nothing but cast since. It shoots better than these 53 year old eyes, and I will NEVER be able to realize the actual potential.

Shiloh

[Jack Stanley]

I found a 11-42 Springfield replacement barrel for a 1903 and used about four hundred rounds of surplus before going to all lead . I used the suplus over many range trips but always cleaned every trace of copper before going to the range next .

When I went to lead , I used a perfectly clean barrel and the Lyman 311466 with all of the rings filled with lube at about a thousand feet per second . It was way over lubed for what I was doing but I gradually increased the charge . Several hundred rounds later I went to conventional lubed bullets with or without gas checks and have kept the velocity down near twelve or thirteen hundred . It has shot about nine hundred rounds now of the conventional cast ammo moslty without checks and no fouling and an occasional swab of the barrel looking for lead .

I think I can step up the velocity any time now without problems .

Jack

[superior]

I would think you can break it in with cast boolits. The copper gas checks should aid break-in.
I would follow normal break-in procedures (cleaning between so many shots)

[carpetman]

Just my thoughts--wild guess. Thought one is if it were .22 rimfire(which only shoot lead) you dont have the option of using jacketed, but they get broken in. Thought 2, you do have the option of shooting jacketed in this, so I'd shoot some first.

[cajun shooter]

The break in that I was given years ago for a rifle bbl was as follows. Fire a j rd and run a cleaning patch for the first 5 rds. Then repeat with 5 rds being fired between the patch(with solvent) Then 10 rds then 20 rds. When you reach the 20 rds, count all rds fired and once you have fired some where in the 100 area you are finished.

[bullshot]

I had an across the course rifle built a few years ago in 260 Rem using a Pac_Nor barrel. Their procedure is basically what Cajenshooter posted. Worked well for me.Rifle shoots under 3/4 in at 200 jds with j bullets.

[Ekalb2000]

Barrel break-in is bogus. I have never done it to a new barrel, and it has never affected how it shoots. Its a waste of money in the longrun.

http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html
http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/barrel_breakin_II.asp

[pdawg_shooter]

Try 100 or so paper patched bullets. You will be amazed how it smooths your rifling up.

[44man]

With the quality of barrels today, just shoot it with cast.
Being a revolver nut, my guns shoot cast right out of the box and after thousands of rounds, nothing has improved or changed in any way.
A quality rifle barrel should be no different.

[Whitespider]

There’s a kazillion opinions on barrel “break-in”, how to do it and what it accomplishes; some say it’s just silliness, others swear by it. Personally, I don’t believe it can increase the inherent accuracy of a barrel. However, I do believe, if done properly, it can make a barrel foul less and clean easier, which would mean the barrel would retain its accuracy over more shots before fouling causes accuracy problems. My opinion comes from firing hundreds of thousands of jacketed bullets on prairie dog towns; but cast boolits are another story.

When shooting jacketed bullets, the slow buildup (fouling) of gilding metal is unavoidable, and anything that reduces the rate of this buildup is a plus. When shooting cast, even a tiny amount of boolit metal deposited in the bore is just plain wrong, shouldn’t happen. If your new barrel is gonna’ be for “cast only” I’d do three things before considering a “break-in” procedure;
Thoroughly clean and dry the bore and give it a good inspection, looking for burrs and such.
Slowly push a snug fitting, dry patch through the bore to feel for burrs and such.
Shoot some cast boolits, checking after each shot for lead fouling that would warrant a “break-in” procedure.
If all is well, why bother with the expense, time and effort of “breaking-in”.

If “break-in” is found to be needed, and/or if you’re interested in how I perform my “break-in” procedure, I’d be willing to post it.

[largom]

I have spent days and hundreds of rounds breaking in a new barrel. Many of these barrels were premium barrels. My procedure was to clean after every shot for at least 20 rounds, then clean after every 3 shots for 21 rounds, then clean after every 5 shots until bore stopped fouling. This was done with J-bullets and checking the bore for copper fouling with a borescope.

Now I break in a new gun/barrel by fire-lapping. If the barrel has a lot of tooling marks [checked with borescope] I use a TUBB'S fire-lapping kit [sold by Midway]. If the bore looks fairly smooth I use cast boolits with a 1200 grit lapping compound in the lube grooves.

I have a Savage 223 rifle that would never group better than 1 1/2 in. at 100 yds. This gun had hundreds of rounds shot thru it. I was going to rebarrel it but decided to fire-lap instead. After fire-lapping this gun now shoots 3/4 in groups consistantly.

I now fire-lap any newly acquired gun.

Larry

[snaggdit]

I am getting my new AR upper today (finally!:p). I know that there is a recommended break in procedure for ARs with jacketed for continued use of jacketed. I got the chrome moly barrel so I bet it is not as big a deal but I plan to shoot severfal hundred rounds of jacketed through it before going to cast.
My reason for caution is this spring I got a new 45 Hi-Point. I had been casting and loading for 45 for a couple friends and when it came I took it right out and fired a bunch of cast through it. It ended up leading some. It was hard to get out! It is way better now after several thousand rounds, but still have not fired a single jacketed through it. I have a feeling that starting with jacketed could have sped up the break in. Just my experience.

[waksupi]

I have two rifles I have built especially for cast boolits. The Douglas barrel on the first project, would only shoot into around 2 1/2" when new. SO, I used the LBT bore lapping stuff, and after around 18-20 rounds, it would shoot under an inch. I could tell the progress of the lapping during cleaning the bore. The tight patch would squeek the length of the bore, until it hit the area that was still rough. Once it squeeked all the way, I did the final clean up and started serious shooting.
If you have a stainless barrel, it most likely will shoot good from the box, a chrome moly will SOMETIMES need a break in period.

[jonk]

I second the firelapping idea. I think the idea behind barrel break in is just to smooth the tooling marks and burrs left by manufacturing. Hand lapping would be fine as well. "Break in" is just accomplishing the same, but with no abrasives it takes a lot more shots. So fire lap it. Then clean and shoot as normal.

[redneckdan]

With my new CZ-550 I fired 20rds of jacketed and I'm going to clean it with copper solvent and then switch over to paper patched for a couple hundred rounds or so.

[XWrench3]

my recomendation would be to ask the barrel maker, and do what he says. no one will know that barrel better than him! my OPINION is that it will take FOREVER to "break in" a barrel with lead only projectiles, rather, what you will do is SEASON it. the difference being this. breaking in - involves wearing away small imperfection in the barrel material. with lead being so much softer than copper, it will take ions. seasoning, will take place from boolit lube seEping into the small pours in the barrel, and the barrel will cure from heat cycles. my only concern would be that as the barrel cures from heat cycles, it may be increasingly harder to wear off the high spots. you may want to ask the barrel maker about shooting something like David Tubb's Final Finish System bullets through the barrel. this is called fire lapping. they are impregnated with abrasives that wear off the high spots. of course, if the barrel has been hand lapped, there will be no need for it. i fire lapped a barrel with the Tubbs process, and WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! that barrel surface went from looking like it was machined with a corn cob, to smooth as a baby's behind.

[BABore]

If it's an off-the-shelf bbl (not custom) I don't even bother slugging it right away. A thorough check down the bore to see if everything is in the right place, then firelap it with the LBT or Beartooth method. Then it's time for slugging and breaking in like mentioned above. Saves alot of initial grief and wasted components.

[223tenx]

I ordered a Shaw barrel for a 110 and asked them when I ordered it what procedure I should use to break it in.They told me to just shoot it and that I didn't need to do anything special. I haven't received it yet and I'll post what shape it's in when I receive it. The fellow at Shaw said their barrels were smooth enough to shoot Pb. boolits without a breakin. I only hope.

[BABore]

I had Shaw rebarrel my 300 WM into a 375 H&H. After a normal break in, it would only do 1 3/8 to 1 1/2" with jacketed. The rifling job was smooth, but by no means a custom, hand lapped bbl smooth. I fired 30 firelapping rounds through it and broke it in again. It's now a 1/2 to 3/4" rifle with jacketed. I've shot many 1/4 to 1/2" groups with it using cast.

[Down South]

My method is about the same as Cajun Shooters for a rifle. Even if I never plan to shoot cast in it, I'll still do a break in procedure.
I do about the same thing for my pistols and revolvers. I have a new one right now that I have not shot yet. I bought 500 J-Bullets for it before the Obamanation for a decent price. I plan to shoot most or all of those through it then clean well and swap over to cast.

[outdoorfan]

By all means firelap it, such as with LBT's or BTB's kit, then do load development like usual. You'll be much better off in the long run.

[Whitespider]

There seems to be a bit of confusion here.
Lapping and/or fire-lapping a barrel is not the same as “breaking-in” a barrel. Fact is, lapping would undo the results of a “break-in” procedure, you’d still need to “break-in” after lapping (and I personally wouldn’t recommend fire-lapping except as a last ditch option, the wear on the rifling lead is tremendous).

[moses]

This topic will never be resolved.

My opinion after breaking in barrels and not breaking in barrels is I really do not think it makes a difference.

[JSnover]

Try a break-in procedure if you're in a hurry to git'r done, but the barrel will break itself in one way or another. The main thing is to keep it clean during the first handful of rounds in case there are any burrs to be cleared out. After you feel it's been properly broke, see how well it shoots. I like the idea of fire lapping but only if there's no other fix.

[outdoorfan]

Both Marshall Stanton and Veral Smith have extensively tested the firelapping process. Neither one has seen or heard of a barrel being ruined WHEN this process is done PROPERLY and with the RIGHT equipment. If it's true that factory barrels tend to be rough, then firelapping is a great way to quickly and economically smooth it up and give it a great taper in the process. After that I'm not so sure it needs to be "broken in" because to my understanding breaking in a barrel is the long process of shooting and cleaning to smooth out those rough edges.

[largom]

Outdoorfan is absolutely correct, breaking in a barrel is the process of removing high spots and smoothing tooling marks. Not only have I fire-lapped most of my own guns I have fire-lapped dozens of customers rifles.

I have NEVER lapped a barrel that did not show improvement, some more than others but always an improvement. Fire-lapping MAY move the throat forward a few thousands of an inch which can be a good thing unless the barrel has a lot of freebore. I have actually increased the throat [with a reamer] on some of my rifles to accomodate cast boolits.

If you prefer to break in with jacketed bullets just remember one thing. You are trying to wear down high spots of steel by rubbing a copper bullet over them. Also, you cannot wear those rough spots out if they are full of copper or fouling. Clean the copper and fouling out between shots. Some barrels break-in with 50 shots or so. Others may take 100's of shots.

Larry

[looseprojectile]

I don't usually buy new guns.
I have restored many old pitted and flat out black milsurp bores by hand lapping.
Don't know why it would not work on a new barrel if it needs it. The best quality barrels are hand lapped.
Recently I have acquired several newer lever action pistol caliber guns that had imperfections in the bores and hand lapping irons them out nicely.
People told me it was crazy to shoot boolits through a gun barrel with valve grinding compound on them. I had real good results. This was only used on barrels that were really bad. I quit doing this in about 1960. Went back to lapping.
Barrels don't have to be real smooth and shiny to shoot good but a smooth barrel sure is easier to clean.

Life is good

[Whitespider]

Well, just my opinion again (not trying to start an argument), but I don’t believe that shooting a copper-alloy jacketed bullet could possibly ‘remove high spots and smooth tooling marks’ in a lifetime of shooting. The process of breaking-in (the process I use) does two things...

- The first half of the procedure burnishes the surface of the steel; closing up pores and making everything sort of lay down in the direction of bullet travel (requires 20-30 rounds).
- The second half of the procedure continues the burnishing and puts the breech end of the rifling through a few heat cycles; sort of heat-treating, tempering or hardening the surface of the steel (another 20-30 rounds).

Actually, that’s an over-simplification, but you get the idea. It doesn’t... it can’t, ‘remove high spots and smooth tooling marks’, the gilding metal just ain’t hard enough. And any ‘lapping’ would remove surface steel, the very same surface steel previously conditioned by the break-in process. If you choose to ‘lap’, well fine than, but the bore surface would still not be “broken-in”, or more descriptively, conditioned by a “break-in” procedure.

[outdoorfan]

Well, just my opinion again (not trying to start an argument), but I don’t believe that shooting a copper-alloy jacketed bullet could possibly ‘remove high spots and smooth tooling marks’ in a lifetime of shooting. The process of breaking-in (the process I use) does two things...

- The first half of the procedure burnishes the surface of the steel; closing up pores and making everything sort of lay down in the direction of bullet travel (requires 20-30 rounds). Okay, that makes sense.
- The second half of the procedure continues the burnishing and puts the breech end of the rifling through a few heat cycles; sort of heat-treating, tempering or hardening the surface of the steel (another 20-30 rounds). How do you do this, as apposed to step 1? Do you shoot a lot before cleaning to heat the barrel?

Actually, that’s an over-simplification, but you get the idea. It doesn’t... it can’t, ‘remove high spots and smooth tooling marks’, the gilding metal just ain’t hard enough. And any ‘lapping’ would remove surface steel, the very same surface steel previously conditioned by the break-in process. If you choose to ‘lap’, well fine than, but the bore surface would still not be “broken-in”, or more descriptively, conditioned by a “break-in” procedure. My question is: If the tooling marks have largely been removed with a proper firelapping process, then why is some fancy break-in necessary? Can't the rifle, at that point, be shot in a normal load work-up sequence where the shooter is commonly cleaning every 5-10 shots anyway?

[high standard 40]

Hey Wayne.[smilie=s:
Not addressing the original question but what chambering are you going to?

Inquisitive minds want to know.:bigsmyl2:

[snaggdit]

Well, I got my new upper and got to the range today. I fired single rounds with cleaning between for 8 rounds. Then I went to 5 round groups with cleaning in between for 7 or 8 groups. Then with a few 10 round groups and finally a 20 round group. The grouping improved as I got into the 10 and 20 round groups (under 2" at 100yrds). I am not an expert shot so I was moderately happy with that for my first time out with it with commercial jacketed. Besides my slight shakiness, I think some had to do with the lack of any copper fouling immediately following cleaning in the lesser groups. The barrel looked pretty smooth before I started but looked smoother when I finished. As I said before, it is a chrome moly barrel so I didn't expect it to be too rough to begin with.

[waksupi]

I will tell you, if you do not have access to a bore scope, looking down a barrel will tell you nothing about it's condition, unless it is frosted or REALLY funky. What you can see with a scope is amazing. Not that I would recommend anyone run out and buy one, but if your local gunsmith has one, it may be an eye opener for you.

[PatMarlin]

I shoot clean breakin all of my new barrels for at least 100 rounds with low pressure loaded copper. What tells me it's working aside from improved accuracy with cast is the less and less fouling and cleanup time that is needed as you progress.

[Whitespider]

My question is: If the tooling marks have largely been removed with a proper firelapping process, then why is some fancy break-in necessary? Can't the rifle, at that point, be shot in a normal load work-up sequence where the shooter is commonly cleaning every 5-10 shots anyway?

outdoorfan,
Don’t misread my posts, I wasn’t trying to say anything was “necessary”; I was only trying to point out that barrel lapping/fire-lapping was not the same as barrel break-in. Millions of rifles have never been broken-in, or lapped, and I’m sure the vast majority provide excellent service for their owners.

The original question that started this thread, from Wayne S was,
“...it will be a strictually cast bullet weapon.....are there any special break-in procedures for cast...?”

And if we revisit my original reply, I said,
“There’s a kazillion opinions on barrel “break-in”.....I do believe, if done properly, it can make a barrel foul less and clean easier.....My opinion comes from firing hundreds of thousands of jacketed bullets.....cast boolits are another story.....When shooting jacketed bullets, the slow buildup (fouling) of gilding metal is unavoidable, and anything that reduces the rate of this buildup is a plus.....If your new barrel is gonna’ be for “cast only” I’d do three things before considering a “break-in” procedure.....If all is well, why bother with the expense, time and effort of “breaking-in”...”

I own, or have owned, several guns that have never seen a jacketed bullet and have never been “broken-in” with my personal procedure. I acquired them with the intent to shoot only cast, and I’ve been satisfied with the performance from day one; I‘ve never seen the need, or “necessity”, to execute a break-in procedure on them.

This brings us to your other question,
“How do you do this, as apposed to step 1? Do you shoot a lot before cleaning to heat the barrel?”

My personal break-in procedure has been developed to minimize copper fouling, and possibly extend throat life, in rifles intended for shooting long strings of jacketed bullets at maximum velocity/load levels (i.e. varmint rifles). But, it has proven to reduce, or eliminate, lead fouling in rifles (that is, rifles that have a tendency to lead foul). Over the years it has slowly evolved into a very specific and detailed procedure that uses certain indicators as to when the time has come to move to the next step. Although I stated it to have a “first half and a second half”, there are several sub-steps within those “halves”. If you’re really interested, I’d be willing to type the whole thing out and post it; but to post just part of it, or just a single step, would make little or no sense to the reader.

[largom]

I will tell you, if you do not have access to a bore scope, looking down a barrel will tell you nothing about it's condition, unless it is frosted or REALLY funky. What you can see with a scope is amazing. Not that I would recommend anyone run out and buy one, but if your local gunsmith has one, it may be an eye opener for you.


I second this statement. My borescope is the most valuable tool in my gun/reloading shop.

Larry