Lil' Gun

[odis]

Well after reading a thread on a different forum I went out to day and ran an experiment. I shot up 100 rounds of ammo evenly split between 296 H110 and Red Dot and let the gun cool then I shot 5 rounds of ammo loaded with Lil' Gun and the gun was much hotter than at anytime during the fairly rapid fire session with the other powders. On the other forum a member had two barrels replaced in very short order from Lil' Gun. FA came to the conclusion that the powder burns so hot that it can wash out forcing cones in as little as 50 rds. if you do not let it cool between shots. I now have two boxes of ammo that will have the slugs pulled, pity too as they are extremely accurate. Use it at your own risk.

[swheeler]

I'm on pound number 3 in the RBH and nothing yet, well nothing but excellent accuracy and high velocity.

[odis]

I'm on pound number 3 in the RBH and nothing yet, well nothing but excellent accuracy and high velocity.There was a link from another forum to a thread on Greybeards outdoors and there was a rep from FA discussing it, I know what you mean 22 grs. under a 310 gr. Leadhead slug shoots into one hole out of my BFR but I'm not taking any chances. The gun was very hot compared to the other powders. Alot of nitro glycerin in Lil' Gun.

[454PB]

Me too.

I've been using Lil'Gun in my .454's (including a F.A 83) and .44 magnums with nothing but great results.

[Charlie Sometimes]

What about rifle barrels, and smaller loads? For example- 22 Hornet, and 12.5 gr. of Lil' Gun? Lot's of people using that powder in that round. How about 38's, too?

[odis]

Go to Greybeard outdoors to the Freedom Arms section of handguns and scroll down to the thread listed as the truth about Lil' Gun. One of the people participating in the thread is a guy from FA who ran the tests at the factory. I'm going to see if anybody at work reloads .410s at work and give it away.

[odoh]

Fired one round in my Puma and the temperature over the chamber really surprised me. My bro broke down his inventory and I'm stuck w/3#s of the stuff ~

[rhead]

I have always been able to get better accuracy with 2400 than with LIL gun in my guns with the exception of my NEF 22 hornet. I also noticed that the barrel took longer to cool when doing the load development. It is definitely not for plinking. If the barrel is still hot when the crows return I just let one of them live a few more minutes.

[Lloyd Smale]

the guy on greybeards that recomened against its use is bob baker the ower of FA. He is warning everyone. He has seen a rash of guns returned with forcing cones burned out of them from lilgun. Ive used it for years but never really saw where it did anyting that 110/296 or even aa9 didnt do so i never used it enough to really hurt anything. I wont buy it anymore and ill will use up the about 10 lbs of it i have left in the 3220 and 32 mag rifles. I never liked the way it acted anyway. It will get you some serious velicitys on the top end but its one of those powders like blue dot that will go from mild to wild with just a small increase in charge wieght. If you insist on using it in a sixgun make sure you dont get your gun to hot by shooting alot of ammo in a short period of time.

[bobthenailer]

ive had excellent results in every caliber ive used it in 22h 32/20. 357, 44 , 454 casull . i use it in my 3 fa 454 casulls but i only use it in top loads with jacked bullets for hunting which i probly only shoot 10 of these rounds or less each year from each pistol with no big rush as im sighting them in from the normal cast bullet loads i use for the rest of the year useing mostley tight group , hs6 , ww 820 and 296 in that order. last year i bought a 8 lb bottle after useing 2 -1 pound cans up now what ? is this problem only in the 454 casull ? and how about if you shoot slow as not to heat up the gun ?
i dont own a 410 shotgun , and i only shoot shotguns about 3 times a year and rifle about 20 times a year , pistols at least once a week, every week, even in winter

[dubber123]

ive had excellent results in every caliber ive used it in 22h 32/20. 357, 44 , 454 casull . i use it in my 3 fa 454 casulls but i only use it in top loads with jacked bullets for hunting which i probly only shoot 10 of these rounds or less each year from each pistol with no big rush as im sighting them in from the normal cast bullet loads i use for the rest of the year useing mostley tight group , hs6 , ww 820 and 296 in that order. last year i bought a 8 lb bottle after useing 2 -1 pound cans up now what ? is this problem only in the 454 casull ? and how about if you shoot slow as not to heat up the gun ?
i dont own a 410 shotgun , and i only shoot shotguns about 3 times a year and rifle about 20 times a year , pistols at least once a week, every week, even in winter

Bob Baker said he has seen it occur in .357, 454, and .475, so it doesn't sound like it's just the .454 that has issues with it. His personal test was with a .357, chosen for it's lower pressure. It did sound like they fired the rounds pretty fast.

After sectioning the barrel of the .357, he said substantial heat damage had occured in only 50 rounds. The test was repeated with H-110 and 2400, and they showed no wear.

[felix]

You guys have me curious now. What would help solve this mystery is shooting LG and 110/296 side-by-side at night. If there is a much smaller flash with LG, then we can assume it has significantly more oxygen in its composition. That would account for the efficiency of the powder, as well as why it produces such tremendous heat within the gun. Is LG cleaner burning? If just as dirty, then we can assume some deterrent was included to help control an extra amount of nitroglycerin. The HiVel powders long ago has 40 percent plus, and that's getting close to what the older Cordite had. These powders produced way too much heat for rapid shooting. ... felix

[crabo]

What about using it in 357 mag rifles? Do you see that as a problem?

[softpoint]

I'm wondering if I could use mine up in magnum 12 guage loads. I've gotten some great 1 1/2oz buffered shot 2 3/4 inch 12's using 2400 powder. I wondered about this even before this thread started, as I had already abandoned it in rifle and handgun. I know you might have a potential for "rocket loads" or "roar outs", but I'd be game to try it if I could find some data.:coffee:

[fixit]

since everyone's talking 'bout 'lil gun, i'm wondering if anyone's tried it in a 357 herret?

[beagle]

So...What is Hodgdon saying about this problem? Anybody contacted them about it?/beagle

[Charlie Sometimes]

I did some shooting yesterday with my 22 Hornet- 12.5 gr. of LG. 12.5 gives good groups (still fine tuning) and 12 does not. 12.5 is nearly a full case, and 13 is a max load, and I would suspect that would be very close to a compressed load.
In my Ruger 77/22, I loaded each round one at a time- load, shoot, load, shoot, for 5 rounds. The barrel does get hot very quickly, but I don't think any hotter than normal in this weather. Added 5 more and it got considerably hotter, of course.
The barrel looks very clean after each shot (I was shooting J-bullets). Using cast boolits with the same charge, it is exceptionally clean, too, but the lube has a lot to do with that too. So at least there is no real residue either way.
All of this is about barrel/ throat errosion from over heating. Just how bad is this errosion after 50 shots? That is a lot of continous firing and would develop a LOT of heat that a pistol could not obviously disburse to the atmosphere quickly. Are people being overly picky, or is everything just GONE from the throat and creaping into the rifling?

I fired 30 rounds yesterday testing loads, and 70 last weekend. The weather being mid to upper 70's around here for the last couple of weeks, the barrel will only cool so much, and reheat faster. What am I supposed to see for damage?

[swheeler]

So...What is Hodgdon saying about this problem? Anybody contacted them about it?/beagle

After posting here I went over to graybeards and read the thread, peeked my interest. I emailed hodgdon on 8-31 but have not recieved an answer, if I ever do I will post it.,

I also got out the magnifier and fiber optic bore light and looked over Ruger and Taurus, I could see nothing out of the norm, but that doesn't mean anything, besides both guns have fired plenty of H110, HS7 and some AA9, plus 8 or 9 powders we aren't worried about. I have fired lilGun at dusk and it has plenty of flash, I'm thinking as much as 110, I actually load about 1/2 grain less of LilGun.

[tommyn]

I have been shooting Lil Gun in a .312 bore contender 32 mag with no problems. I have shot over 2000 rounds using it and the barrel shoots just as good as when I started. Awesome vel and accuracy.

[Blammer]

all I know from personal experience with Lilgun; in a pistol it makes the gun extra hot really fast! so I don't use it in a pistol.

In my 357 mag levergun, I have found it not to cause such extreme heat like it does in a pistol.

I shoot about 25 rounds then take a break anyways, switch to another gun, no matter what the caliber or powder.

I really like the accuracy I get in my 360DW levergun with Lilgun.

Plus, if you're hunting with a pistol and get lost and cold it will only take one or two shots to get it up to temp to make a nice handwarmer. :) :)

[beagle]

I'm using the following load in my Ruger Blackhawk convertible in .45 Colt cases.

45325FNU RCBS 337.7 grains Lil Gun 17.0 grains 1070 FPS downsized to .452.

I've used a couple of pounds in the .22 Hornet M77 and also some in the .30 Carbine...both pistol and rifle. Haven't noticed anything.

The .45 Colt load is pretty stiff for me so I don't shoot that many.

I hope nothing is wrong with Lil Gun. It's a very useful powder for me.

We'll see what Hodgdon has to say about it./beagle

[stubshaft]

I use Lil Gun ALOT it is my "go to" powder for my .500 S&W's ( I have 3 Encore barrels in various lengths). I find it a Little faster than 296 and have found no erosion of chamber throats in any of my barrels. That doesn't mean that it can't happen but I have put at least 2500 rounds through each barrel (34.5gr behind 460 Lee GC)

[bobthenailer]

if my memory serves me correctly ? there was a recall or something on lilgun powder by hodgen at some time? bob

[Charlie Sometimes]

Could it be that the material that FA uses for their barrels is just a bit soft?
Way back when, I remember people having problems with rounds like 220 Swift erroding bores, and the problem was the barrel steel.
It has only been brought to anyones attention by some of their employees.
Quality issue?

[swheeler]

It has been 18 days since the question was asked of Hodgdons, no reply. I will send off another e-mail and see if they respond.

[BD]

It's the powder of choice in the .450 bushmaster. Somewhere around 34 grains under a 250 grain FXT. Quickload lists it to have a "heat of explosion potential" somewhat lower than H110. In my experience barrel heat is pretty similar between the two in that application. I generally feel that the barrel is "hot" to the touch at about 30 rounds, shooting 5 round groups.
BD

[Junior1942]

It has been 18 days since the question was asked of Hodgdons, no reply. I will send off another e-mail and see if they respond.It probably got caught in a spam filter. I'm webmaster for three web sites, and I recently spent five weeks in the hospital. I had circa 5,000 spams to sort through when I came home. It took me all day.

Hint: use a subject which stands out in a long list of spams. That's a subject which could only come from a Hodgdon powder user. Try "Lil'Gun & barrel heat."

[BCB]

I've used it in the 357 Magnum and the 45 Long Colt and I don't see a dang problem. It is strange that the barrels got hotter than with other powders of near the same burn rate. How can you tell? I sure don't feel my barrel (!) every time I go to shoot some groups or just blast away. I honestly don't think I could tell the difference between 10 rounds of H-110 and 10 rounds of Lil'Gun if it was shot by someone else and I got to check the heat when I was blindfolded and didn't know which was being fired.

I am never "unamazed"...BCB

[swheeler]

It probably got caught in a spam filter. I'm webmaster for three web sites, and I recently spent five weeks in the hospital. I had circa 5,000 spams to sort through when I came home. It took me all day.

Hint: use a subject which stands out in a long list of spams. That's a subject which could only come from a Hodgdon powder user. Try "Lil'Gun & barrel heat."

Thanks Junior. I would think that if there was such a problem Hodgdon would have been the first to find it while working up data, am sure pressure guns and test firearms get a good work out. One of the older Hornady manuals shows what throat errosion does to a test barrel, 7mm rem mag.
"This test involved one of the labs accuracy barrels in 7mm Magnum caliber. The velocities were obtained using the same components and the same cartridge overall length. The barrel was tested when new and 2000 rounds later."
average velocity of new barrel=3044fps
average velocity of 2000 rounds fired barrel=2758fps Hornady third edition

Hum, kinda makes you wonder about some of these cyber blasters that have put 10 and 20 thousand rounds through their 7mm wonder mag that is just as fast and accurate as the day they bought it, right. I see no ill effects from the 1200+ plus rounds of LilGun so far, let alone a washed out throat/forcing cone from as few as 50 rounds! Problem with Freedom Arms? bad batch of barrel steel? We'll see what Hodgdon says.

[rhead]

One possibility could be that lilgun has a longer, flatter pressure curve. I would just be a side effect of the same reason that it seems to give a more efficient use of the barrel pressure. Just another example of there are no free lunches.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Could it be that the material that FA uses for their barrels is just a bit soft?
Way back when, I remember people having problems with rounds like 220 Swift erroding bores, and the problem was the barrel steel.
It has only been brought to anyones attention by some of their employees.
Quality issue?

I figure FA is redirecting the issue, even though they make good on the repairs. Seems that everybody gets overly excited these days when things like this happen- lots of hype for nothing. I doubt that Hodgdon will have much to say.

[CajunRebel]

Still no word from Hodgdon?:coffeecom

[AlaskaMike]

After posting here I went over to graybeards and read the thread, peeked my interest. I emailed hodgdon on 8-31 but have not recieved an answer, if I ever do I will post it.,

I'd be amazed if you hear anything from them. In my experience Hodgdon is completely unaware of the existence of email. You might want to give them a call.

Mike

[rickster]

One possibility could be that lilgun has a longer, flatter pressure curve. I would just be a side effect of the same reason that it seems to give a more efficient use of the barrel pressure. Just another example of there are no free lunches.

I was thinking along the same lines. Lilgun comes up to peak pressure fast, then holds that pressure longer than other powders, then decays quickly. This results in a more efficient use of combustion energy, and higher velocities for a given peak pressure. This is due to a high progressivity factor; the highest I have seen listed in Quickload. What this boils down to is that the throat area stays at peak temperature for a longer period of time than with other powders.

[303Guy]

.... let the gun cool then I shot 5 rounds of ammo loaded with Lil' Gun and the gun was much hotter than at anytime during the fairly rapid fire session with the other powders ....I found that with my hornet!

The barrel gets rediculously hot in short time flat! Five shots and the barrel is too hot to touch.

INCREASE the powder charge by .2grs and it stays cool! Go figure! Reducing the charge also cools it, depending. There seems to be a critical load range in which the barrel heating occurs. In my case, increasing the charge also increased the degree of powder compression which seems to be concentrated at the case neck. There did not seem to be much increase in pressure but sharpness of the muzzle report increased and there was a different feel to the 'recoil'.

With barrel heating, the heat seemed even from chamber through to suppressor.

[tek4260]

I used Lilgun in my Savage ML-1. My load was 54 grains and a 240gr TC Mag Sabot for 2950fps. The Lilgun did not blow past the sabots nearly as bad as 4227 nor did it seem to heat the barrel as fast. Of course this is in a Muzzleloader, and probably has little in common with the effects on handguns.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Now we're going somewhere that I fear to tread- the "new" in-line muzzleloaders.

I am traditional here- precussion side lock or flintlock. I despise in-lines. They have taken away the original reason for the season. :twisted:

I have NEVER heard of anyone shooting ANYTHING but BLACK POWDER OR A BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE in any "MUZZLELOADER", and SURVIVING the demolition of their firearm. Especially a charge of that pressure magnitude. :eek: :shock:

I checked www.savagearms.com and found this-

http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/MLII_loads.pdf

Hodgdon Lil Gun is not to be used in the ML-II, doubt if it should be used in a ML-I then. :-o

I am shocked! :shock: The movement away from traditional black powder to modern, "cleaner", BP substitutes was bad enough, but now moving toward the use of smokeless powders is insanity. :twisted: :veryconfu :x

[tek4260]

http://www.sav10ml.com/pages/main.htm

The page has changed a good bit in the past 9 years and alot of the old loads are no longer listed. I shot that load listed and got sub 1" groups at 100yds. It was devastating on deer out to about 250yds. I quit using it because it would bloodshot a deer from front to rear at any range under 150yds. I now use an old White 504 with 90gr of Pyrodex and 350gr Long range sabots(cant remember the brand right now) that are solid lead and look like a long boat tailed 458. Shoots great with peep sights I installed and is light as a feather compared to that Savage ML-1. I have seen a Remington ML let go with my load. Tried and tried to tell him it was not built like that Savage :(. Also saw a Knight that got some teeth and broke a jaw with the cocking piece/bolt trying to shoot smokeless.

On a side note about Primitive weapons season, look a MS laws now. Scopes, centerfire 35cal and above. We sell lots of Encores in 35 Whelen and 375 H&H to use during the season...

[swheeler]

I'd be amazed if you hear anything from them. In my experience Hodgdon is completely unaware of the existence of email. You might want to give them a call.

Mike

I'm beginning to think you are correct, not a word. I like information in hard copy, maybe this is why they won't answer emails. CYA don't ya know.

[tek4260]

Charlie,

I went back and read the link you posted, and I see that Savage has tuned down the loads quite a bit since the ML-II was introduced. Heck, my owners manual lists the max for Pyrodex and Black Powder at 200gr! Of course the ML-1 is totally different than the ML-II. Mine has locking lugs, a long fine threaded breach plug, and a stainless percussion module that looks like a 45ACP to hold the 209 primer. The newer ones lack all of the above. ATF frowned on the ML-1 since you could screw a barrel from Savage into the action and have a centerfire rifle.


Sorry to hijack.

[leadeye]

I have had good luck with Lil Gun in my Marlin 1894 with RD 265s, it does heat up the barrel more, I noticed that when testing loads using 2400 and 296. Produces a good, accurate, combination for deer.

[rockrat]

Not suprised the Remington came apart. Don't think they are rated for smokeless.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I have seen a Remington ML let go with my load. Tried and tried to tell him it was not built like that Savage. Also saw a Knight that got some teeth and broke a jaw with the cocking piece/bolt trying to shoot smokeless.

:holysheep

Yea, that's what I'm afraid will happen more often than not with most inexperienced shooters/ beginners. :veryconfu

:hijack: Hijacking over.

[James Gibson]

swheeler--- So you think Hodgdon is giving you a run around? I called them up about three weeks ago and asked them why with the same load of Trail Boss and the same lead bullet in the 32S&WL,32 H&R and 32-20 that the pressure went up with each larger case. I got 5mins of tap danceing that ended with "that how it is" and somthing about each larger case COULD have had a heaver crimp. The increase between the 32S&WL and the 32/20 was almost double.