help me choose a bullet Lube

[Griffin]

hi everybody,
i need your expertise.
i have a 8x57IS mauser with a bit tricky barrel.
the rifling (i think it is called that ) is somewhat progressive and so is the bore dimension. not much but i have been told so by the gun smith.
however, the gun is a original one from 1931 and my grandpa:s 15th birthdaypresent and i truely love that gun for many reasons.
the barrel i long and when i shoot a saeco 198gr lead bullet lubed with a standard lube stick and dipped in liq. alox after seating the lube doesnt really grease the barrel all the way to the muzzle. 8 cm (approx. 3 inches) from the muzzle it starts to lead the barrel.
the bullet is a "bore rider" i think its called, when the whole bullet is in contact with the barrel. correct me if i am wrong in this case.
what lube is good for bullets travelling in ~750-800m/s?
thanks.
Karl

[Firebricker]

Griffin, Click Lar45sLs stuff I use their carnuba red in about everything but they also have some softer lubes that I have heard good things abought. I like LBT blue a lot too I use it in my 30/30 loads with very good results. I have not used a lot of the bore ride designs but a lot of the members here do. They will have good advice on that style boolit. I'm not exactly sure what you mean abought progressive rifling you may want to slug your barrell. Sounds like a very nice rifle ! I'm sure you'll find the right combanation with a little experamenting.
FB

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I second the Lar45sLs stuff and carnaba red. A good friend of mine, rbstern on this board, gave me a couple of sticks to try. Lars makes excellent stuff from what I can tell and it saves you the time and effort of making your own, especially at the prices he offers it for.

Regards,

Dave

[Griffin]

Griffin, Click Lar45sLs stuff I use their carnuba red in about everything but they also have some softer lubes that I have heard good things abought. I like LBT blue a lot too I use it in my 30/30 loads with very good results. I have not used a lot of the bore ride designs but a lot of the members here do. They will have good advice on that style boolit. I'm not exactly sure what you mean abought progressive rifling you may want to slug your barrell. Sounds like a very nice rifle ! I'm sure you'll find the right combanation with a little experamenting.
FB

thanks for answering!
accoring to the gunsmith which is a very good one, one of the best in our country the barrel has a very little extra twist in the end towards the muzzle. this, he told me would for certain mean problems if i cut it off to shorten the barrel, which i wil not do of course. The Lee175 gr design of bullet doesnt work at all.The barrel is full of lead and the bullet will arrive sideways in 100 yds, sized to .323. the precision is not very good at all...
i have good experience in 30-30 with the lyman 311291 ~170gr, a very fine bullet.

i forgot to tell you all i use hardened "water quenced" bullets with a bhn around 30.
if the expressions are a bit odd i might be from me coming from Sweden.

/Karl

[Griffin]

me being new here, where or how do i find the lubes you are talking about?
/Karl

[Firebricker]

I forgot to put were the link is just scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see
Lar45s Ls Stuff FB

[waksupi]

Griffin, also look for the Felix Lube recipe on this board. It would save you international shipping, and is easy to make.
The gain twist in your barrel shouldn't be a problem, you are just running out of lube. I believe I would also try a slightly softer bullet. You can vary the hardness, by using an oven to bring the cast boolits to different temperature ranges, and quenching. 30 bn is most likely harder than needed in the bore size.

[GLynn41]

if you buy/// lars Carnuba red works -- but it might be fun for you make your own -- you can find lots of recipes here for that

[Edubya]

Griffin, your 750-800m/s converts to about 2,500fps; Lar's does have some lube that's made for the higher speeds.
You need not apologize to anyone for your expressions, I wish that I had as good command of your language as you have of mine.
EW

[Gunfixer]

Griffin
A 1931 rifle should have a .323 bore. Sizing to .323 would get leading for sure. Try sizing to .325.
+1 on Waksupi and Edubya

[Griffin]

Griffin
A 1931 rifle should have a .323 bore. Sizing to .323 would get leading for sure. Try sizing to .325.
+1 on Waksupi and Edubya

That was new to me. how should one think in this case
if i got a oversized bullet, will the leading go down? is this due to blowby or what is the thought to this?
i have a sizer die on the way thanks to trapperP here on the forum and its a.325

if i size a bullet to .325 and setting the gas check, then will i use the same die to lube the bullet after i heat it a oven and water quenced it?
will i destroy the hard bullet in any way?

the problem has one more degree of freedom - the self marking siluette on the range only allow very hard lead bullets otherwise i am banned i think.

i will look into the lube suggestions you all have given me, i am truely grateful for this.
in sweden "we", the few casters i know call uorselves BB as in BlyBroder, which translated will add up to "Lead Brothers". So "BlyBroder", i thank you
:drinks:
/Karl

[Maven]

"If i size a bullet to .325 and setting the gas check, then will i use the same die to lube the bullet after i heat it a oven and water quenced it? will i destroy the hard bullet in any way?"


Griffin/Bly Broder, You won't destroy the bullet, but you will soften it if it is sized after heat treating. However, if you slug your barrel, you may discover that it doesn't require a .325" bullet and thus, if your mold casts at .324" - .3245", you'll have no appreciable problem with work softening your alloy. You'll be happy to know that a .323" Lee Precision push through sizing die can easily be lapped out to .324" or .3245" if that's what your barrel requires. One last thought: Does the mold you are now using cast large enough so that you can size the bullets to .325" or possibly .324"?

[Griffin]

One last thought: Does the mold you are now using cast large enough so that you can size the bullets to .325" or possibly .324"?

you have a point here, i havent checked all the things i need to know.

Thanks a lot Maven, i have a lot to go on now. i dont have the information of the casting diameter, i dont know what the hole diam. is in the Lee Sizing die. i´ll check it and perhaps i will make good progress using what you all told me.
/Karl

[geargnasher]

I also highly recommend making and trying Felix World Famous Lube, (or the International Metric version :drinks:). I personally have not used it in anything over 700mps, but many others have, with good results.

If you try it, I think I remember reading that Felix recommends more castor oil for high-speed and smaller calibers.

I have fired many Lar's Carnauba Red-lubed boolits from a friend of mine in .45acp with excellent results, and I'm sure it performs very well at much higher speeds, but I only have one lube/sizer of my own and Felix's recipe serves all my needs.

Gear

[Griffin]

i will try to make me some felix lube, waht is castor oil? i have no isea. does it make any difference what mineral oil one choose? will oil for transmission or cars do? just asking what to look for.
/Karl

[303Guy]

Hi there, Griffin. :drinks:

There is a simple trick you can do while waighting for you 'Felix Lube' components. Candle wax + Alox + STP. Melt this up, knurl thour boolit bore-ride section and dip. This sets quite hard and may just carry through to the muzzle. It does for me and I do not have lube grooves on my cast boolits. But then, I do not shoot mine as fast as you. My boolit is a smooth sided, tapered 225grainer (14.6g) driven to 560 m/s (1900fps). No leading and good accuracy. (303 Brit).

[geargnasher]

i will try to make me some felix lube, waht is castor oil? i have no isea. does it make any difference what mineral oil one choose? will oil for transmission or cars do? just asking what to look for.
/Karl

Castor oil is rendered from the Castor bean. It is commonly used as a laxative and is available in drugstores, grocery stores, and pharmacies. There are 3 grades that I know of, cold-pressed is medical grade, warm pressed is commercial grade, and solvent-extracted is the industrial grade (used for some 2-cycle engine oil mixed or injected, also used for centuries as "steam cylinder oil")

You want to use the cold-pressed, laxative variety for your lube.

Felix could tell you better than I, but I think any kind of paraffin-based oils like "baby oil" (like that sold by Johnson & Johnson in grocery markets) would work.

I have used generic "baby oil" because it was inexpensive. I have also made it from transmission oil, but it smells terrible and I think that all the good friction modifiers, viscosity modifiers, anti-foaming agents, anti-oxidation agents, etc. burn off by the time you get the castor oil to fully polymerize. I know I have to cook the mineral/castor oils at over 300 degrees F. to make the castor oil work and that pretty much destroys transmission fluid additives, so there would be no benefit. However, transmission oil might work just fine if you used less heat (like 200 degrees F.) and cooked it with the castor for 2-3 hours instead of 30 minutes like the recipe says.

You can get a better idea of tips and tweaks from wading through the sticky on Felix lube, or go to www.castpics.net (link at bottom of this page) and look up the original development thread under "lube references".

Hope this helps,

Gear

[Griffin]

hi again,
thanks for all replies since last question.

I have read and studied a lot and found a translation of a felix lube article and a review article while looking around on swedish.
your input and the articles clearly explains the process and ingredients.
I will make the lube this week i believe, i will get back to you when its done.
Thanks
/Karl

[runfiverun]

slow your load down you are doing 2200 or better fps that is most of your accuracy problems especially with a bore rider.
600-650 mps would be a more suitable accuracy range.

[Griffin]

ok,
I have made a fatal error in the past. A friend on this place PeterB pointed out a stupid thing i have done earlier when having the leading problem.
I did seat the bullet so the first lube groove was not in the neck but inte case itself. this might have affected the lube when firing the ammo. the grease was visible to the powder so to say. then, i have got a hold on 3 sticks of 50% alox and 50%bees wax from trapperP here on this forum.

i have made 24 test rounds with the new (much more sticky) lube. testing it on thursday, will dip the front of the bullet in liq alox as well and i will ask the allmighty father to make it work:rolleyes:
but, MY GOD its messy to get the old grease out, but its done now.
i will still make felix lube, but i have the ingrediets on the way and a man still has to shoot....

[Char-Gar]

Griff.. When I started bullet casting 50 years ago there were a couple of popular home made bullet lubes around all of which uses beeswax as a base and some other material to soften it enough to work through a lubesize machine.

One was a mix of beeswax and Vaseline. The porportions are not critical, but somewhere around 60/40 or 65/35 (wax to Vaseline) will get you there.

I have used this mix for 50 years for handgun and rifles bullets up to about 2,000 fps with nothing but excellent results. You do not want to use this as a black powder lubricant!

Another was a mix of beeswax and "cup grease" which is automobile chassis grease. One popular brand was Texico Marfac grease. Again the porportions were not critical.

There are better greases around today and Glen Fryxell uses this beeswax and high speed moly grease for all of his shooting. Glen gets great results.

I give you these formulas as the ingrediants are easy to obtain just about anywhere. I use a pyrex cup and microwave oven to make my lubricant.

You have been told about Felix lube and indeed it is a great product. It is somewhat difficult to make, but for critical applications it is wonderful stuff. I keep one lubesize machine filled with Felix lube and use it for loads that will go in excess of 1.9 or 2.0 K fps.

I am sorry, but I can't give you any input on "store bought" bullet lubes and I have not bought any in 49 years.

I do think many cast bullet shooters make too much out of bullet lube choice. In my mind there are are only two kinds of bullet lubes..those that work and those that don't work. I have not found the "tweaking" bullet lubricants to be worth the effort.

I am certain some folks will disagree with me, but there is my input based on experience and not theory for what it is worth.

[Griffin]

Griff.. When I started bullet casting 50 years ago there were a couple of popular home made bullet lubes around all of which uses beeswax as a base and some other material to soften it enough to work through a lubesize machine.

One was a mix of beeswax and Vaseline. The porportions are not critical, but somewhere around 60/40 or 65/35 (wax to Vaseline) will get you there.

I have used this mix for 50 years for handgun and rifles bullets up to about 2,000 fps with nothing but excellent results. You do not want to use this as a black powder lubricant!

Another was a mix of beeswax and "cup grease" which is automobile chassis grease. One popular brand was Texico Marfac grease. Again the porportions were not critical.

There are better greases around today and Glen Fryxell uses this beeswax and high speed moly grease for all of his shooting. Glen gets great results.

I give you these formulas as the ingrediants are easy to obtain just about anywhere. I use a pyrex cup and microwave oven to make my lubricant.

You have been told about Felix lube and indeed it is a great product. It is somewhat difficult to make, but for critical applications it is wonderful stuff. I keep one lubesize machine filled with Felix lube and use it for loads that will go in excess of 1.9 or 2.0 K fps.

I am sorry, but I can't give you any input on "store bought" bullet lubes and I have not bought any in 49 years.

I do think many cast bullet shooters make too much out of bullet lube choice. In my mind there are are only two kinds of bullet lubes..those that work and those that don't work. I have not found the "tweaking" bullet lubricants to be worth the effort.

I am certain some folks will disagree with me, but there is my input based on experience and not theory for what it is worth.

well, i do appriciate you taking the time to give me input.
just the fact that you have done this for 50 years and i only six months makes almost anything you write very interesting. i was thinking about moly grease today and how to use it, what moly grease product did Glen use?

i have slowed my bullet down to approx 2100fps now but going lower will make my open sights useless because their are of the fixed sight type (recknagel skeleton)
if i take a bullet and knocks it in with a hammer in the barrel the whole bullet is in contact with the bore, if i knock it down so the lube groove gets in the barrel the bullet touch the bottom of the barrel groove.
it is a tight fit so to say.

do you think it is possible to ask glen what he uses as moly grease ("make and model")?
BTW its fun to make it yourself and for me with two kids its good to save money too. lube is expensive here, approx 4-5 dollars for a stick of normal kind.
/karl

[Char-Gar]

Glen uses a high speed Moly grease. He is not particular about the make as it is all about the same. I know because I asked him as few years back.

The stuff I have is by LubriMatic and is their Moly EP Grease and comes in one pound cans available at your local auto supply store. It's primary use is for wheel bearings and universal joints. This is a little more critical use than ordinary chassis grease.

I keep a can of it on the lathe bench of put a dab on the tailstock dead center. It also works for bullet lube as per the prior post.

In the old days, the also used water pump grease. This is a water proof grease, but I have not seen any of it for years and don't know if they still make it or not. It also worked well with beeswax for a bullet lube.

The grease really isn't all that critical..it is the beeswax that counts.

Now, there are some folks on this board who make deep science out of bullet lube and can tell you where and how I am all wet. Science has never been my long suit so I can't prove them wrong. I am just a grey headed old fart who loads and shoots and pays attention to the results.

[runfiverun]

beeswax 60% scented candle wax40% and johnsons paste wax 10% after the other 2 are mixed ,with some lanolin [tea spoon full as the b-wax candle wax is cooling off]makes a good lube too.
stuff i had around the house..
viscosity counts as much/more as whats in a boolit lube..
a friend just sent me some red marine grease mixed with b-wax to try. it has just enough grease in it to make red lube,he swears by it.

[Griffin]

Chargar and Runfiverun:
this is from my end very interesting. i have worked a lot with demolition robots where we are in need of specific high pressure greases that lubes the tools that have high pressures and loads at the same time. these lubes are available to me and are mixed moly ep2 greases with components that will make it stick hard in very thin greasefilms. after reading your reply:s i perhaps want to try this on the boolits beacause its free to me. it is very high quality greases which if they fail will cost us dearly in repairs and they have never done that so, its good quality. they are used in the rock hammers.
is there something i need to know that might be negative by using these components that you have encountered (hope you get what i mean... not a good sentence).
you might have mentioned it earlier, but do i need to add something that makes the lube harder och something?

[Char-Gar]

Griffin... I would give your grease a try and see what happens. Other than a little lead in your barrel I can't see any downside. You just may have some great bullet lube there.

The jury is out on what a bullet lube actually does. Some of the science types on this board argue that one on a regular basis. For sure, one of the main function is to extrude and form a seal at the bullet base to keep the fire off the side of the bullet.

Some say that is all and being an actual lubricant is not a function and some say it is. Hell if I know!

At the very worse, your grease should do very well mixed with beeswax. Can you get beeswax in Sweden or are all of the bees frozen stiff.

If the grease will stay put in the lube grooves, give it a try. If not, the mix a little beeswax with it and keep adjusting the mix until it stays put and does a good job.

[longhorn47]

I have been working on lub for a long time now bees wax and moly grease with a little mothers nipple cream that is the secret and I do not like to tell people that because you do not have to use it just on bullets think about it

[Griffin]

chargar:
i will do some cooking, and just do something nistead of just thinking what might be best. by using the alox/beeswax mix i reduced the lead a great deal today on 30 shots. i still have leading but less.
we do have bees, and we do have import routes so there is light in the tunnel. i have a can in the garage actually. this is going somwhere.

Longhorn47:
what does the mothers n... cream do to the mix?


i did expand my sizing die to .324 today from .323.
i tried a saeco bullet in .324 today from peterB and the precision was there. his bullets looks like my lyman 311291 in the finish and i found out that my Lee bullets isnt round but oval. this might cause a small blowby. the saeco bullet produces a thicker lube smoke than my Lee bullet also.
i will load a batch and try them on a paper target this week also. to see if the bullet behaves better at 100 yards.
/Karl

[geargnasher]

Griffin,

The nipple cream is pure lanolin paste, sold as ointment for breastfeeding mothers. Good stuff to make your lube stick to the boolit grooves.

Please remember that if you cook your own lube that beeswax can catch on fire at around 300* F (sorry, I don't have the *C conversion formula handy!) so keep a lid for your cooking pot available to smother it or use a thermometer. This is important because much heat is needed to melt industrial greases, and your beeswax may burn before you can get the grease to melt with it, be careful!

I would recommend any lube containing a good quality industial high-pressure grease and beeswax, I don't know if the lanolin wil help much in that mixture, but if you do try to add some wait until the lube has cooled to around 150*F or you may ruin the lanolin. I still use Glen's formula on the rare occasion that I pan lube, but Felix Lube is better for 600Mps and up.

Gear

[Griffin]

went to the range today and fired 50 rounds with the 8x57 mauser with 50/50 BW/ALOX.
i had dipped the bullet in liq alox after seating it, really much alox on the bullet.

You will not believe it, NO LEAD in the barrel. i have found a way!
i will still make better lube but i have advanced and gotten rid of the problem. I am a very happy, somewhat proud man just now:drinks:

i had 80-90mm (~3,5inches) in spreading of 25 bullets fired in a row, at 50m range and with open sights only. i am getting there soon i think.
/Karl

[softpoint]

I've used the moly grease and beeswax 50-50 mix. It worked well, but I made it indoors and it stunk the place up. It also takes a lot of heat to melt the moly grease, and later when you melt a little to pour in a lube sizer, it stinks again!
I use Felix lube now, I don't know if it is any better, but it is very good, smells good (like beeswax), and since it is a little more trouble to make, it gives the physcological effect of being better! Joking aside, try it ,you'll like it:p

[geargnasher]

Congratulations, Karl! You are getting there!
Sometimes there are many different "correct" ways to achieve the same goal. You might get better accuracy with Felix lube or beeswax/moly grease or you might not. The only way to find out is try different things.

Gear

[Shooter6br]

I use 50/50 beeswax and vegetable shorting in sub 1500fps loads

[runfiverun]

i have a moly based lube we use in valves in the oil field i used it in a 60 b-wax 40 moly[in with the original carrier] solution with some carnuba and 10% micro parafin wax.
it just sits there till some heat and pressure is applied, then the moly comes out.
moly heated up in the wave holds it temp for a long time.
so i melted the b-wax and warmed the moly up and used a hand mixer to mix the two, it took a bit but i just kept on mixing till it cooled down and became consistent in texture.
it needs a bit of heat to work in the lubrisizer and i doubt it would make a good pan lube but it sure enough works,in my 24" 44 mag at full power 40k pressure area.
it however could be rubbed on by hand [i'd wear some latex gloves though]
the lube has not gone to a hard stage and has retained a putty like state for 2 months now sitting in the open in the garage with temps over 90*.
it leaves the bbl nice and shiney so i am going to try it in other applications.

[Griffin]

ok, i got moly grease and bees wax together after a lot of heat, a few flames and so on. it has cooled and has a good lubricant feel. i have a problem though.
its "wet" and i would like it a lot harder to make it user friendly and not so "greasy"
should i add paraffine or Pure stearine to make it hard?
The lanolin has to wait beacause our pharmacys doesnt have that anymore for sale.
so how do one harden the lube?
/Karl

[runfiverun]

the parafin will harden it up the lanolin will make it softer but not effect the hardness just make it more pliable.
by stearine do you mean stearate?
stearate adds lubrication too.
you could just add more b-wax to it also. the moly may be too much for the b-wax to carry you over saturated it. remember b-wax forms holes in it when it cools and the moly is filling those holes, micro parafin wax has smaller holes and will fill in some of the holes of the b-wax also, but it wil also carry the moly just in a tighter area in smaller amounts.
but will harden up the solution...
if yu have an old scented [the soft ones] candle around eyeball about 25%by volumn of what you have there and melt the whole thing down again and add the wax stir till the whole thng cools down.
then write down what you done...

[geargnasher]

ok, i got moly grease and bees wax together after a lot of heat, a few flames and so on. it has cooled and has a good lubricant feel. i have a problem though.
its "wet" and i would like it a lot harder to make it user friendly and not so "greasy"
should i add paraffine or Pure stearine to make it hard?
The lanolin has to wait beacause our pharmacys doesnt have that anymore for sale.
so how do one harden the lube?
/Karl

I would try reheating your mixture (or a small part of it, you don't have to experiment with the whole batch) and add more beeswax to it. Paraffin wax can be used as a hardener and will make the mixture less sticky, but I wouldn't add more than 10% paraffin at most because it fails as a High-velocity lube.

Adding more beeswax should harden it up plenty. Don't worry if the grease is only 25% or so when you are done, it will be fine. Just get it the consistency and feel you want.

It shouldn't be necessary to add stearate to your mix with just grease and beeswax (the grease IS a metal "soap", not the same as stearate but serves a similar purpose).

If you have a pharmacy nearby, ask them for anhydrous (dry) lanolin, sometimes used by pharmacists for compounding mixtures, you might be able to buy some by the ounce or pound.

One thing to remember through all of this is that all of us have different experiences with lube and different advice to offer. Just about any lube will work at low/medium velocities (under 300mps) but when you have a high-stress application like your rifle, only really good lubes will work well. 6-800 mps tends to be beyond the limits of Pariffin and Liquid Alox in my experience, I'm sure someone will contradict me, though.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Griff.. I would add more beeswax to get it to where you want to go.

[runfiverun]

i ain't gonna go against alox being a not good high pessure/vel lube.
in small amounts it is beneficial to a mix used for that application though.
paraffin and micro wax are two different things.
just as brown and white are two diferent bees waxes.
made from the same thing but not exactly the same properties.

[delt167502]

if your lube don't work out ,i would recomend using a 50/50 mix of rcbs rifle lube and bee's wax. (makes a hard lube) it seems to work up to 2000 fps. in a 243 & in a 06 have used it in a 45-70 on black bear . what ever you use try droping your fps to around 1800 then work up. been using cast from the mid 60 s

[Griffin]

i have tested to mix som stearate in the lube just for testing and it looks promising. i found a mix that is hard enough to make easy to handle and i got a lube that has a fat oily feeling to it and still lubricates when pressurised. i am about to mix in a small amount of lanolin too for its adhesive properties. we will see how it works. Still, its a lot of fun to make and experiment. i havent forgotten th felix lube, just testing my wings a bit.
/Karl