Seating pp boolits

[223tenx]

I'm having a heck of a time seating patched boolits without tearing the patch. Do you all use an "M" die or what? I tried a Lee Universal Expander die but that only flares the mouth and still allows the patch to tear.

[pdawg_shooter]

Once the patch has dried, lubed and run through the final die it should not tear. I use the Lee flair die myself. What paper are you using?

[montana_charlie]

What is the OD of your patched bullet, and what is the ID of the case mouth you are trying to seat it into?
CM

[docone31]

To help, we need some details.
Is your tail twisted? If twisted, are there feathers on the base from sizeing?

[RMulhern]

If you're shootin BP and a .45 caliber plus....I could help! If you're shooting something else kinda oddball....you're on ya on!

[beemer]

I use a expander that is a couple of thousands under the finish size and make sure the flair is slightly bigger than the bullet. I have a seating die that will tear the patch from the front, you have to watch for that also. Most of the expanders that I have bought are to small. I usually end up making my own expander plugs.

beemer

[docone31]

Hi Beemer!! Long time.
My wife and myself have fired a few thousand paper patched loads in .308, and .303 British.
Thanks for the start. It works.
On the tearing of the patch,
When I started with my .303 British, my dies could only seat to .312 reliably. My rifle took .314.
I had to send my dies back to Lee to have them modified. Fast and efficient. I sent two patched castings so they could match the dies to them.
I had all the typical issues. Seating too far into the case, tearing of the patch on the ogive, even stretching out of the brass. It might be the dies are not quite right. I now have two sets for my .303. My .30s use conventional dies, I size them to .309.
It all depends on where the patches are tearing.
If they tear on the ogive, it is definately the dies. Once the paper is dried, and final sized, they are real stable. I have some sitting awaiting to be loaded for about four months now. No size increase, no looseness. They are where they were when they had been sized.
I also use a cigarette roller to roll the patches. That really gets them tight! I mean tight. The wrinkles are flattened, the paper stretches real well.
We will need to know more to give advice.
And again, thanks Beemer.

[223tenx]

Patching for a 30-30 Handi with 130gr. spire pt. gc (w/o gc). Patched boolits are sized to .309 and cases are full length sized. I'm loosing about 1 in 8-10 patches being torn in half while seating. Groups are good at 1 1/2" at 50 yds with midrange BL-C2 loading. I just borrowed a .31 M die and will try it next. Patched boolitshave a little Lee case sizing lube on them. As an after thought, could the Lee case lube be softening the patch, since it's water soluble?

[223tenx]

I'm using tracing paper that's 40gm/m² (I think that's about 20 lb. paper) with two wraps.

[docone31]

Something is wrong here.
First of all, the weight is too light.
The patched loads with the traceing paper should size to .309 fairly easily, however, your lube is not the best with final sizeing. Yes, it could be messing up the paches.
Try instead, wrapping with plain lined notebook paper. I soak mine wet, then roll in a cigarette roller. They come out just damp, and dry quickly. Then, use Auto Wax as sizeing lube. Wipe a little on the patched casting prior to sizeing. Wipe the excess off. Just wax lightly.
Your 30-30 die should seat the patched loads easily. I expand the case mouth prior to seating. I do not crimp my loads. I use the Lee FCD set to just before crimp.
You are in the ball park. It might just be the case lube.
Somehow, it is weakening the patch.
I also size my prime castings to .308, then wrap, then final size. I use dish soap for first sizeing. It washes off easily.
130gn is a little light for paper patching. I prefer the .30cal mold from Lee. Since it is an single shot, the tip will not make much difference.

[303Guy]

Tracing paper is tough stuff! I have played a little with water emulsion waxes - auto polishes - and it wreaks havoc with paper! (Water 'soluble' waxes are actually emulsions).

Just a thought, since we are talking single shot, there is no ned to size the cases or necks. Just a light internal neck chamfer and the right size boolit base area and the boolits can be seated by hand. It is a good idea I think to use an over powder wad so that if a boolit gets left in the chamber on extracting an unfired round, the powder doesn't get spilled. It's also a good idea to carry a short brass rod to drop down the bore to dislodge such errant boolet. But being a 30-30 that would likely not happen. (I get it with my 303 Brit but that only seats one boolit diameter in the neck and my boolits are long!)

Just to be different, I lube my loaded round - case and boolit - by rolling it on my STP soaked lube pad. The STP that does soak into the paper does not seem to make it stick to the boolit. (The lubing thing is something I learned a long time ago and is the reason why my cases last fore-ever! I'm still loading some 30 year old cases - my first ones :D).

[Nrut]

Just to be different, I lube my loaded round - case and boolit - by rolling it on my STP soaked lube pad. The STP that does soak into the paper does not seem to make it stick to the boolit. (The lubing thing is something I learned a long time ago and is the reason why my cases last fore-ever! I'm still loading some 30 year old cases - my first ones :D).

If you have known this for 30 years why have you been keeping it a secret all this time? eh?
:)

[Nrut]

If you're shootin BP and a .45 caliber plus....I could help! If you're shooting something else kinda oddball....you're on ya own!

[smilie=l:

[montana_charlie]

Considering how much (digital) ink has been expended in the pages of this forum on 'how to clean sizing lube off of cases'; and 'which lube cleans off most easily'; and 'I tumble my reloads to remove all traces of lubrication from my brass'...

I bet if you polled the membership to find out how many are careful to assure that there is no oil in the chamber, and no oil on the cartridge case, prior to firing - you would find the majority avoiding lubricant in the chamber like the plague.

I know that ALL 'expert' advice I have ever seen said cases should be clean and dry.

Maybe that thing about how a case needs to momentarily grip the chamber wall is an old wives' tale. But the advice always seemed to be for preventing the old wives from becoming old widows...
CM

[303Guy]

If you have known this for 30 years why have you been keeping it a secret all this time? eh?montana_charlie has answered that one!:mrgreen:

I suspect that 'conventional wisdom' is to keep brass case manufacturers in business!:mrgreen:

Actually, a lubed case does grip the chamber walls momentarily. What it does not do is 'bind' on the chamber walls - that's what causes case head separation. The lube allows the case to 'creap' down the chamber walls in a progressive manor allowing the elongation of the case to remain within the elastic limits of the brass. A case that binds can let go suddeny and shock-load the bolt. The neck does not or should not move at all. (Anyway, you folks know I do things differently! And I'm still alive.[smilie=1: )
But remember the old addage - When in doubt, don't. :drinks:

Oil in the chamber can run forward to form a droplet in the bore - that would not be good when the bullet hits it! That could indeed blow something up! So oil in the chamber remains a no-no!

[windrider919]

What a shame the jerks at the NRA are so anal about information they were chartered to research and disseminate. Access is only to members, not to those who need it and could use it online. An ex 20 year member.

About 24 or 25 years ago when I was a NRA member there was an article about testing done with a Springfield 03A3 and lubed cases. It a long time ago and I do not remember the whole article. But the conclusion was that lubed cases INCREASED the backforce on the bolt lugs. Since there was/is a large margin of error in the amount of pressure a properly designed bolt rifle can take they said it would not usually make a difference. But that with a hot load the additional backforce could damage or even shear lugs.

Again I do not remember exactly but their measurements with lubed cases gave 3K to 5K more backthrust to the lugs. They tested a load that with dry cases gave something like 57CUP but with lubed cases gave over 65CUP and set back the lugs, rendering the rifle Kaput.

So, 303guy, you might actually be saving brass but increasing the stress on the rifle. It obviously has not failed you yet but if I were in your place I would not shoot any hot load lubed cases. I believe in personal responsibility and that what you do is and should be your choice.

But I will never forget the night I sat across the room from a friend at his house and he said "I've done it lots of times and nothing happened." as he put a S&W .357 revolver with one round in it to his head and pulled the trigger. And honestly, I think that is what your are doing. I don't want to lose another friend so perhaps you will research it and make an informed decision. I live in the South USA and too often my redneck acquaintances famous last words are "Hey ya'll, watch this!" I'd rather replace the brass than have a rifle blow up in my hands.

I know it is a strong statement but remember I am not attacking you, just urging caution on a known hazard. I want you around for a long time to compare PP shooting with.

[barrabruce]

223tenx
I have been playing with PP the handi 30-30 too.
I use a lee load all but my sized case necks come out at 0.308"
I use a taper deburrer to clean up the necks mouth.
I then made a flaring tool to open the case neck up to 0.309- 0.310"
My bullets are 0.301" prime sized. Hard cast comercial plain based. :(
Wrapped to about 0.310"or so then size to 0.3095" in a 0.309 size die.(spring back)
The paper bullets will then start in the necks by thumb pressure and can be seated to a firm seat in the lower neck with reasonable neck tension with the lee load-all.

I loose a lot less bullets that way now.
Before I was ripping the patches too.( sizing and not tapering case necks or sizing bullets)
The bases seem to be the trouble where it folds over the bullet.(Wider ring effect) before sizing!!
But non uniform case mouths diameters and pressures in seating seemed to play havoc with grouping as well. (loose /tight)

I've had good results by just seating the PP bullets (not sizes) into a fired case without sizing at all and letting the rifling work out the seating depth.
But they stick in the bore if you try and unload and you can push'em through into the powder if not carefully handled.
As the bore/chamber dirties up though fouling they will seat deeper!!
A bit of case neck back blow of course and pressure signs indecates that I would use lighter loads and work up to normally seated bullets, as the pressures seems to be higher.
Got 1 1/2 " groups that way at 100yrds.

With a tight seating got 1 1/4" groups last time I tried.
Still lots to learn as me projo's are showing signs of giro-ing not hitting quite straight on.

Try unlubed and maybe a different lube may help as well.

Hope it helps...
Just new at this caper and working out what works for me and my rifle likes.

Barra

[223tenx]

There's also a paragraph or two in Hatcher's Notebook about greased shells causing catastrophic rifle failure.
Docone31-- I only used the 130 gr. spire point because they were the only boolits I had cast up that didn't already have the gc on them. Plus it's easy to patch past the ogive since it's so far back on the boolit. I just started to pp and I'm sort of feeling my way. I've poured over all the threads in this forum several times and have read Matthews Paper Jacket. My NEF Handi has a super tight chamber. If there's any flair at all to the case mouth the case , the case has to be pushed into the chamber with force. You can feel the flair drag as it's chambered. Probably safe enough with lead boolits, but I don't like to do it. If it's not fired the extractor isn't strong enough to extract it.

[barrabruce]

Same here on my 157 handi 30-30 barrell for neck (flaring).
My "flared" necks are smaller dia than the unsized case dia.

Barra

[leftiye]

I wipe my cases after sizing with RCBS case lube (a lot like STP) and that is that. I have always done this - no tumbling, no solvent , no soap. I think it keeps the brass from corroding. Never yet a problem of any kind. I was taken aback by this thread, cain't see why anyone would worry about a slight bit of oil. In WWII folks with .45 autos used to oil (reads wipe oil on to cases) their ammo to prevent jamming at importune moments. If your loads are in the correct pressure range, and your gun is properly strong, there is no need to rely on your brass for strength. This very concept (relying on brass for strength) seems muy stoopid to me. Brass can be very inconsistent, it may be taking your life in your hands.

[Red River Rick]

Actually, a lubed case does grip the chamber walls momentarily. What it does not do is 'bind' on the chamber walls - that's what causes case head separation. The lube allows the case to 'creap' down the chamber walls in a progressive manor allowing the elongation of the case to remain within the elastic limits of the brass. A case that binds can let go suddeny and shock-load the bolt. The neck does not or should not move at all.


.303 Guy:

It's funny, because out of all the ten of thousand of rounds I've shot during my lifetime, from various calibers, the only round that I've ever had case-head seperations is on the .303 British.

Yes, I've had cracks develop on other cartridges, but never had a complete failure. Most case head seperations are attributed to improper head-spacing! And the .303 British is the worst offender!

RRR

[303Guy]

... if I were in your place I would not shoot any hot load lubed cases.Absolutely! I allow a theoretical 10% increase in bolt face thrust and load accordingly. Interestingly, that still allows me to achieve near 'standard velocity' in the Lee Enfield.


They tested a load that with dry cases gave something like 57CUP but with lubed cases gave over 65CUP and set back the lugs, rendering the rifle Kaput.That's an interesting finding. Ubdoubtedly, in lower pressure cartridges the case alone can hold the back-thrust but for a lightly lubed case to actually increase the chamber pressure ..... ! Mmmmm .... perhaps there was more to the trials.

I have speculated that excess oil around the case in the chamber could atomize forward under extreme pressure of firing, causing a 'Diesel Effect' in the oxygen rich, hot, high pressure combustion environment.

The Lee Enfield is probably the worst offender for stretching cases and case head separations. That's because it's such a flexy action. It should not be used for hot loads. It won't break - it actually is a very strong action but the steels used could result in bolt lug set-back. A lightly lubed case and moderate loads solves the casehead separation problem, together with never setting the shoulder back with neck sizing.

I have seen a MkIII Lee Enfield with serious excess head space actually holding the fired case in the foreward position i.e. the case did not 'let go' its grip and the case head did not separate (the primer remained backed out). That case was lubed! (Eventually, the hammering on the lug recesses peaned the faces so badly that the bolt began jamming! Then the owner listened to me and took the rifle back!)

So yes, rest assured, I have researched this one a lot. By the way, I got the idea from a WWII armourer and subsequent gun builder. He also mentiond the controversy around the practice and warned me not to load to max and not to over lube the cases. By the way, polishing cases has the same effect. Polished brass is self lubricating. Lubing cases also helps keep bolt face thrust consistent - important for a Lee Enfield.

The test I have done is to take a polished case, lube it and fire it. Little 'scuff' lines appear. These get progressively shorter toward the shoulder where they dissappear, indicating a progressive elongation of the case over its length.

[Nrut]

Actually 303Guy
I used to lube my 30-30 case when fire forming them in a Contender 30-30 AI chamber...That was the only way I could get them to form properly after exhausting all other known methods to me at the time with the tools I had...
You obviously know what you are doing ...
:smile:

[Zeek]

Most seating dies have a maximum bullet diameter that is WAY too small for accommodating cast boolits (CBs), including the paper-patched ones (PPCBs). I find that the best trick is to stick with the Lee seater but to use a carbide cyindrical bit on my Dremel (reaching in from the top of the die with its innards removed) to light-touch-round-and-round against the thin web separating the upper part of the die from the case-chamber end. Do this until an oversize-for-your-use CB will drop through of its own weight. This way, you can use any reasonably-oversize CB or PPCB and never run into the patch-ruined-during-seating problem, so long as you have the case neck prepared. Lee is the only brand of sizer die I know of that will "open up" this easily.

Second, as someone else indicated, you WILL need a different expander button diameter, the ideal range being from 1 to 2 thousandths under the sized-to diameter of your PPCB.

Third, use a VERY light coating of lube prior to sizing, ESPECIALLY if it is an oil type (rather than the wax type), because liquid does not compress, so your patch will NOT size down so long as there is trapped liquid in the pores of the patch ~~~> this can cause a LOOSE PATCH after sizing (a dead give-away that the PPCB's core sized down because the patch could not be compressed). You want to size the patch DRY, but with a lube on the outside only. My favorite lube is a light smear of SPG ~~~> the sized patch comes out with a hard, polished, wax-covered surface. Lovely!
Regards, Zeek

[felix]

Glad you are here, Ed (Zeek). ... felix

[303Guy]

... liquid does not compress, so your patch will NOT size down so long as there is trapped liquid in the pores of the patch ...Interesting! (I never thought of that!) Could that be one reason why over-lubing a patched boolit can result in poor accuracy?

[Nrut]

Ed Wosika
Another way to deal with tight "seating" dies is to use Hornady die as their seater has a sliding bushing that is easily removed and can either be honed out or replaced with the next cal. up...For example using a .366" bushing for seating .358" boolits
Thanks for your advise in the LEE dies as I don't have a .308 Hornady die set and none are to been found with all this Ovomit histeria...
I have a LEE in .308 and will use your method for modifying it..
I have experienced what you are talking about on loose patches after resizing and didn't know why so that info is helpful also...
:-)