Problems seating unsized Lee TL452-230-2R boolits

[Navy_Guns]

After searching some of the threads about the Lee "Factory Crimp Die" for 45 ACP, which I'm using, I hope this thread doesn't turn into a Lee bashing fest...

I have a 1-gallon bucket FULL of TL452-230-2R boolits I cast and Alox tumble lubed several months ago and I would really prefer not to have to go back and size and re-lube all of them (that's a lot of bullets!). In my progressive, I like to set the seating die to seat only so I don't shave a ring of metal off the boolit at the end of the stroke. Then I have used the Lee FCD to do a moderate taper crimp. In the past, I always push sized my non-TL bullets before loading them and never had a problem.

Now, about one in every dozen or so is tougher to run through the FCD and when the ram brings the round back through the carbide ring, I believe it's "squirting" the bullet partially out of the case making it way too long. I have measured the rounds immediately after the seating die and every one of them is exactly 1.260". After the FCD, most of them are 1.260 - 1.264" but then some get out to 1.270" (not so bad) or all the way to 1.295" which is not good.

I can pick most of those ones out visually but some are just a little too long to work right but not obvious enough to pick out by eye. So, I think I have two options but maybe someone can suggest something else:

1) Size and re-lube all the boolits so there's no oversized ones to get unseated at the end of the FCD operation, or

2) Set my seating die to taper crimp just enough to take out the bell and hope the swelled sides of the case from the big bullet will still chamber and not cause excess pressures.

Any other ideas?

[fredj338]

First, your OAL measurment can't be right for a 45acp. IMO, the LFCD is just not the way to load lead bullets. If you set it so it just taper crimps, then it will work more or less like a taper crimp die. I have loaded 10s of 1000s of 45acp using separate seater & a taper crimp die. One reason I advocate sizing & lubing instead of tumble lubem especailly for semiautos. The diam variation can cause you loading/feeding problems.

[mike in co]

mixed brass or all one lot( not one head stamp)?

the die is sizing both, if the boolit is consistant in dia, but the brass has varing wall thickness you will have the results you have posted. me thinks from your post, that this die is not correct for this loading plan. if all one lot of brass it should work but then again if your boolit dia's are all over the place...back to square one.

mike in co

[Navy_Guns]

Yep, I wrote down the wrong OAL's in my original post (fixed them though).

Yes, there are several headstamps all mixed in but the screwed up ones don't seem to favor any one brand.

I should go back and measure a sample (~30) of my bullets to see what the range is. I just took it on faith (heh!) that Lee's claim that they can be used without sizing was ok, maybe it isn't. I DO want my loading to go quickly and smoothly, but I don't want 10 % of my bullets to fail to go into battery either.

[runfiverun]

i am thinking you have one boolit bigger than the others.
if you are using a 6 cavity you might have a cavity that is just a bit bigger,or you may be bumping the sprue cutter and making a bt larger boolit once in a while.
i think i would just go through them and mike the sizes you have maybe you can head off the loading problem before you get to it.

[mpmarty]

I use and really like the LEE FCD for rifles as the collet does a remarkable job of crimping the necks uniformly. I have some of the LEE FCD for pistol and have quit using them entirely as they are a very poor design. The base ring of carbide either does nothing when a cartridge is of a normal size and it destroys the accuracy of cast boolit loads on cartridges that are a bit oversize for one reason or another. As has been said here already, knocking out the base carbide ring solves the problem so why bother with the defective design at all? I've gone back to crimping with a standard taper crimp die as a separate station on my dillon.

[fredj338]

mixed brass or all one lot( not one head stamp)?

the die is sizing both, if the boolit is consistant in dia, but the brass has varing wall thickness you will have the results you have posted. me thinks from your post, that this die is not correct for this loading plan. if all one lot of brass it should work but then again if your boolit dia's are all over the place...back to square one.

mike in co

Even if all your cavs are identical, the diameters will cahnge w/ your alloy & casting temps. So as the alloy & mold heat up, diameter will change. So you get a bunch of bullets arying as much as 0.002" either way. THis will cause havoc on a progressive & while not a big deal for revolvers, semiautos are far more picky about finished diameter.

[theperfessor]

You've described the exact reason why I ALWAYS size every bullet I cast. That and homemade M-type neck expanding dies and I get controllable, uniform neck tension. With a push through die you could size them faster than you could mike them. Relubing with LLA shouldn't take all that long.

I have a lot more reloading time than shooting time available, so I like to make sure my ammo will chamber and fire when I get to the range. I'd size 'em all and remove this variable as a cause of any loading/shooting problems, but that's just me.

[Navy_Guns]

Yeah, here's a couple hundred reasons I didn't want to have to size everything. Oh well, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. At least the Lee push-through sizer is a breeze to use. I'll check in when the re-lube has dried to report if the problem has been resolved...

[Navy_Guns]

Sized 'em, re-lubed 'em - problem solved. Now that I don't have to second-guess my seating and check them all with a caliper, things are going a lot faster!

[runfiverun]

thats about a half an hour max on a star.

[Navy_Guns]

Are you saying you could reload all the boolits in my photo in a half an hour? In what universe?

[putteral]

I think he means sizing them.

[Navy_Guns]

Heck, it DIDN'T take much more than 30 or 45 minutes to push size them through the Lee .452" sizer. Tumble lubing them was pretty quick, too. Now as for loading them, that there is exactly 1,146 bullets (I counted). If you can do that in a half hour on a manual press and not have a >25% reject rate, I'll eat them. Or at least I'll think twice about keeping my RCBS Pro 1000 because best I care to do on it is ~300/hour. I could go faster but I'd make lots more mistakes.

I'm all about learning better ways to do it...

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=Navy_Guns;646226]After searching some of the threads about the Lee "Factory Crimp Die" for 45 ACP, which I'm using, I hope this thread doesn't turn into a Lee bashing fest...


Now, about one in every dozen or so is tougher to run through the FCD and when the ram brings the round back through the carbide ring, I believe it's "squirting" the bullet partially out of the case making it way too long.

"Squirting the bullet partially out"? I'm wondering if the LLA could be making a tight enough seal with the case that it is compressing the air inside which might push it out. We would sometimes encounter that in engine building if too much anti sieze was on bolt threads, you just could'nt torque the bolt all the way in a blind hole.

[Recluse]

You've described the exact reason why I ALWAYS size every bullet I cast. That and homemade M-type neck expanding dies and I get controllable, uniform neck tension. With a push through die you could size them faster than you could mike them. Relubing with LLA shouldn't take all that long.

I have a lot more reloading time than shooting time available, so I like to make sure my ammo will chamber and fire when I get to the range. I'd size 'em all and remove this variable as a cause of any loading/shooting problems, but that's just me.

+1

I really like the Lee TL moulds, but it irritates the hell out of me when I read "May not even need to be sized." Because ultimately, that gets read as, "With Lee TL design boolits, you never need to size them. Just load 'em and shoot 'em."

And nothing could be further from the truth.

Those Lee push-through dies are easy and fast and clean. Only thing better is a Star as it lubes and sizes at the same time, and does it cleanly. Neither the RCBS Lubramatic or my beloved old Lyman 45 can even come close to competing with the Lee push-throughs.

My motto has always been, "If I cast it, I size it."

:coffee:

[Navy_Guns]

As for WALLENBA's comment, I wouldn't doubt it, my alox-lubed boolits can hold pressure. I had a batch of Lee 45 TC bullets where the bolt connecting the powder throw linkage came off somewhere in the middle of a run. I had about 50 rounds where some had the 5.5 grains of powder and some had none, and with all the other variables I couldn't cull the powder-less ones with a scale. I chambered the whole batch of 50 or so one at a time in my 1911 and culled them by pulling the trigger. The ones with powder were obvious. The ones without were too, but some had enough "pop" from the primer to drive them into the throat and had to be tapped back out with a wooden dowel. Some of them went "poof" but didn't unseat the bullet. These I ejected and put in a bowl. About 1/4th of these proceeded to spontaneously unseat themselves within a minute or two and left the 230 grain boolit sitting in the bowl and spat the casing out onto the patio with a small "pop!". It was amusing, if frustrating - and now I keep my eye on that linkage every time I pull the handle.