LBT in trouble

[Blacktail 8541]

Just recieved an email from LBT, and it seems that the goverment is after him again. He will not be produceing any mould till at least July. Only thing you will be able to get from him are his lube and book and a few misc things he has in stock.

[Buckshot]

...............Poor guy!

..............Buckshot

[KCSO]

Is this that Veral guy who thoght that income tax was optional?

[Dale53]

Yep!

Dale53

[Blacktail 8541]

Yes, he is the one. He did his time so they should leave him alone.

[KCSO]

One year when my boy was about 12 I miss typed his ssn into the tax return. Instead of a refund that was due me I got a letter dis-allowing my deduction and a bill for taxes due.
I could not just give them the correct number, I had to prove that he was my son and the same son I had listed for the previous 11 years by providing certified copies of his ss card, school records and birth certificate. Each time I thought the problem was corrected hey asked for something else. When Uncle Sugar thinks he's not gotten his fair share they are never done with you.

The IRS, they make their own rules, no one can understand them and when you violate the rules you have to prove you are not guilty.

[Bullshop]

Remember Ruby Ridge, Randy Weaver, Freemen? Thier neibors! Our US of A gubment wanted Randy to comprimise his ethics but he would not so they MURDERED (as in payed restitution) his wife and son.
Could it be possible they want the same from Veral? If thier not above murder why not imprisonment. Seams Veral is also not the comprimising sort eather.
BIC/BS

[mike in co]

Remember Ruby Ridge, Randy Weaver, Freemen? Thier neibors! Our US of A gubment wanted Randy to comprimise his ethics but he would not so they MURDERED (as in payed restitution) his wife and son.
Could it be possible they want the same from Veral? If thier not above murder why not imprisonment. Seams Veral is also not the comprimising sort eather.
BIC/BS

kinda like the way you think.
the good news is the truth came out in the ruby ridge mistake, the gov actutally ended up paying out cash to weaver, tho nothing will replace his family.

before any of you question the tax laws....please read them.

you would be surprise on what they actually say vs what is forced down your thoat.

[Pepe Ray]

Mike in Colo.
What makes you think Weaver ever collected? Just because a judge says it should
happen doesn't mean that the Feds will cough it up. I havn't heard one way or tother. Wouldn't surprise me if he got stiffed.
Pepe Ray

[fatnhappy]

Yes, he is the one. He did his time so they should leave him alone.


Assuming he has settled his debt, obligations and punishments. Otherwise I'd be obligated to quote Teddy.



I'll leave the conspiracy plots to others so inclined.

KCSO, I bet you won't do that again. [smilie=1:

[waksupi]

Remember Ruby Ridge, Randy Weaver, Freemen? Thier neibors! Our US of A gubment wanted Randy to comprimise his ethics but he would not so they MURDERED (as in payed restitution) his wife and son.
Could it be possible they want the same from Veral? If thier not above murder why not imprisonment. Seams Veral is also not the comprimising sort eather.
BIC/BS

Don't throw the Freemen in with Ruby Ridge. The Freemen were, and still are, a bunch of knot headed idiots, with thier heads firmly placed up thier butts. Ruby Ridge was a multiple murder, for a $300 tax bill.

[steveb]

Only thing you will be able to get from him are his lube and book and a few misc things he has in stock.


Where do you get his book, ive heard it is a good one but not very thick of a book. Anyone have this or any comments on it??

[Bret4207]

Was it Ruby Ridge that led to Waco, or the other way around? Both were plain wrong. Just my opinion, but I'd be sitting in jail if I did that type of stuff here in the sissyfied east.

Going through a little issue with the IRS myself over a mistake my tax preparer made. Not fun.

As for Veral- lets get the facts before we blame him or the Gov't. He brought it on himself last time. Still stinks that he couldn't make it right and went to prision over a few $$$.

[Buckshot]

................I'm opening myself up here to being called an idiot, speaking that which I don't know for sure, nor have I reserched, so it's worse then 3rd hand. But here it is. During the Civil War, the north instituted a form of income tax to help finance the invasion of the several seccesionist states (who had the right to do so) but that's another story.

Then, just after the turn of the century another income tax bill was introduced to help finance the burgeoning federal government. It was ruled unconstitutional as they weren't supposed to be able to tax a mans' wages.

Somehow or the other an alternative method was introduced and consequently passed as a rider on another bill. A few years later a followup bill was tossed in the hopper to place a 3% cap on any federal tax on income. This was laughed down as junk legislaiton as it would NEVER reach that point.

At one time it WAS becoming VERY unpopular to pay income tax so the feds introduced paycheck withholding rather then to rely on the yearly return and payments. This way it was wrung out of the worker in smaller, more manageable bites. Plus it allowed the feds to budget more closely. Or put another way, to spend more freely as a more predictable amount came in routinely.

This was especially enforced during WW2 when many factories turned to war production and government contracts required regular paycheck automatic deductions.

There was a company of some size in Texas whose employees were grumbleing about what they made. The company then began paying their employees in cash each payday. The full entire amount was paid to them. This included all their state and federal money normally deducted, plus their disability, un-employment, and their Social Security. The Social Security money they saw come out of their paychecks AND the required employer matching SS funds. Plus any health and retirement monies.

These newly wealthy workers got to take their bulging sack of Federal Reserve notes down to another window where they got to shell out a good portion of all that new found wealth, to pay their state & federal income taxes, their disability ins, and unemplyment money, along with twice the Social Security amount they were used to seeing go, as they had the companys portion to pay also. Then pay cash money for thier health and retirement fund money.

Apparently there was almost revolution and insurrection in that Texas town.

People treat their income tax refund check as a gift from the government, when it was thier money in the first place. Most people don't have the faintest idea of what they actually pay in taxes, from all jurisdictions yearly.

Our elected officials do not pay into Social Security. They have their own retirement fund that pays just a tiny weensy bit better then Social Security (Very heavy sarcasm on the last, please). If it's good enough for us, why not them?

If Verel Smith believed that he wasn't constitutionally required to pay income tax or whatever tax it was he ran afoul of, then he is 10 times the man I am for taking a stand in not paying it. Right or wrong, smart or stupid, the man took a stand without violence or harm to anyone for his beliefs.

While the rest of us stand back here in the bushes and watch

..................Buckshot

[Scrounger]

In 1984 the government discontinued the Civil Service Retirement System. People already in the system would continue to pay into it but no new employees would be allowed to join. Instead, they would be part of the Social Security System. They also instituted a VOLUNTARY Supplementary Savings/Retirement Fund, called FERS. Employees can voluntarily contribute money into their account, IF THEY WISH, and even have say in how that account is invested. I don't know but I would bet that the higher ups have a different retirement account, one which only Presidents, Congressmen, and Cabinet level people can get into. Also bet it is far sweeter than anything we low level scum get...

[Nrut]

..........

If Verel Smith believed that he wasn't constitutionally required to pay income tax or whatever tax it was he ran afoul of, then he is 10 times the man I am for taking a stand in not paying it. Right or wrong, smart or stupid, the man took a stand without violence or harm to anyone for his beliefs.

While the rest of us stand back here in the bushes and watch

..................Buckshot

"While the rest of us stand back here in the bushes and watch"...........sez it all eh

[Blacktail 8541]

You can get his book by going over to GRAYBEARD outdoors and scrolling down to the cast bullet section and following directions for downloading his cataloge.

[grumble]

I dunno about Veral, but most of the "Common Law" tax protests hang their theories on two contradicting parts of the Constitution.

In Section 8 of the body of the Constitution, where the powers of Congress are enumerated, it says: "No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken."

Then, the XVI Amendment (passed in 1906, I believe) amends the text of the Constitution to say: "The Congress shall have power to to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

The 16th Amendment was passed with very little controversy at the time, and the first income tax was such a small amount and affected so few people that it went almost unnoticed, too. Most of the tax protesters I'm aware of use the passage of the 16th as the basis for their opposition. It seems that another state was added to the Union as the ratification process was ongoing, but wasn't considered when the final numbers were counted to add the amendment to the Constitution, so the 2/3 (?) majority of states required for ratification wasn't met. So, that would make the 16th void.

There have been a number of attempted lawsuits to bring this to the attention of the courts, but every time there has been a ruling from lower courts to the effect that the plaintiffs had "no standing," since they were just "a few among millions of willing taxpayers." and the Supremes have never allowed cert. to give the case a hearing.

Personally, I don't so much mind paying taxes as I do trying to fill out the damn forms. In my mind, it is criminal that the gov't makes them so damn complicated. There's no excuse for a tax code so complicated that an average high school graduate has to pay H&R Block $50 a year or face the threat of going to jail.

[Harry O]

................

If Verel Smith believed that he wasn't constitutionally required to pay income tax or whatever tax it was he ran afoul of, then he is 10 times the man I am for taking a stand in not paying it. Right or wrong, smart or stupid, the man took a stand without violence or harm to anyone for his beliefs.

..................Buckshot

Actually, I think what he did was not this brave. He joined some "church", donated ALL he equipment and money to them, and they paid him back a "salary". Naturally, with the "donations" he owed nothing in taxes. Pretty transparent. After he was convicted, the "church" stole everything from him. Actually, I am not sure that it was "stole" from a legal standpoint since he signed it over to them, but it just shows what happens when you fall in with those kind of people.

As far as the book he wrote (Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets), I think everyone here should have a copy. I consider it a Masters Degree in bullet casting. The Lyman stuff is great for the basics, but Veral's book goes one from there -- quite a ways beyond the basics. If I completely understood everything he said and why he said it, I wouldn't be asking questions here. I would be answering them.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Two minor points about income tax: My mother told me of bragging that her father paid income tax, probably in the early 1920s. She went on to say that paying icome tax at that time meant that you were VERY wealthy. Last week I picked up my finished income tax return from the accountant (you won't see me going into that jungle without a guide.) The receptionist almost apologized when she told me that our refund was only $79. I told her that the low refund meant that we had managed our deductions competently last year, and that WE had the use of most of our money instead of the Yankee government.

"Wake up Amurica!" Earl Pitts

[PatMarlin]

I know some other folks who went on that tax revolt merry-go-round. They wound up paying far more in attorney's fees than they ever would have by just paying their taxes.

Once you go down that road you are done, cause the feds will not stop until you are done.

They told Veral not to go back in the mold making business, as he related to me. It's a damn shame, and I admire his talent.

[Junior1942]

I learned a FACT the hard way while dealing with the gov'mint over student loans: make a copy of EVERY piece of paper you send to EVERY gov'mint agency. And keep those copies in a safe place!

[Char-Gar]

Once upon a time, many years ago, as a new and fresh young Precher, I attended my first "Preacher's meeting" where the United Methodist Clergy gather to do what they do together.

The general tenor of the conversation was complaining about how bad these fellows were being treated and used by their congregations. Obviously somebody had forgotton to invoke the "no whine rule".

The cap was when one fellow said.."Well, what can we expect, they crucified Jesus didn't they?"

One old retired Preacher, spoke up and said..."Boys, remember they crucified three folks on that day and two of them had it coming!".

In all of this angst of Goverment persecution, etc, etc, etc, it is good to remember that not everybody who the Goverment goes after is an innocent victum of govermental oppression..some of them have it coming!

[Bret4207]

As usual Chargar makes the point, and very well put too. Oddly, the defendant rarely see's himself as "in the wrong". Gotta wonder how some folks miss their own guilt. We'll have to wait and see if Veral did something wrong or is a target.

[Blacktail 8541]

Once in the sights of the goverment you are always in their sights. They will never leave you alone. He may have been guilty on the first go around and clean as can be this time but it does not matter to the IRS, once you are under their scutiny the will find something else because our tax code are so complicated.

[KCSO]

For myself all I want is for the government to leave me be. I pay my taxes because I want good schools and roads and I deplore the waste of the rest of my money. That siad I don't judge any thing by what I hear. If you don't know the whole story, from both sides you don't know s#$t. I have personally dealt with the tax protesters for 25 years now and some are good, some are bad and all are bucking a stacked deck.

'nuff said.

[Dutch4122]

Just recieved an email from LBT, and it seems that the goverment is after him again. He will not be produceing any mould till at least July. Only thing you will be able to get from him are his lube and book and a few misc things he has in stock.


Too bad, I exchanged e-mails with Veral a couple of months back over a problem with an order; and he mentioned an upcoming court date that was taking up a lot of his time in preparation. Hope he can get things straightened out with the Feds.

Don't think I'll hold my breath in the meantime. :(