Woooooo Wee...Blackhorn 209 Powder

[StarMetal]

Grafs finally got it in and here's the "dealer" costs. $23.99 for 10 ounces!!!!!!!! Not counting the shipping.

Now why you think this stuff is so expensive. Is it really more expensive to make then any other powder? I'll bet not. I'll bet it's price gouging and greed because the stuff is so unique and it works. They are making us pay for our laziness in not having to clean our muzzle loaders right away. As comparison loose FF or FFFg for same amount of Triple Seven is $17.99 dealer.

Joe

[wiljen]

Wait til hunting season is over then buy it at the wallyworld on closeout for $8 a can. Bought 4 lbs of T7 that way last year.

[StarMetal]

Wait til hunting season is over then buy it at the wallyworld on closeout for $8 a can. Bought 4 lbs of T7 that way last year.

Thanks Heard that from my CO friend. I know 777 is high at our Wally World. Probably be a loooong time until they get that Blackhorn too.

Joe

[Underclocked]

23.99 is probably the best price you will find. Some places charge close to $40.

It actually is good stuff and is very consistent. Carbonizing in the breech plugs is a PIA but otherwise cleanup is quick and easy. I don't think it is worth the difference in money but some certainly do.

Swiss is awfully hard to beat. But shoot what you've got! :)

[cajun shooter]

Heard some bad reports about Blackhorn being very hydroscopic and to not leave gun fired with it long before a good cleaning. Real BP is the way to go. A lot less problems and you can shoot and clean later without fear of ruining gun.

[Underclocked]

"Blackhorn being very hydroscopic" - no, not at all.

[1874Sharps]

When a new product comes out that takes the present technology a quantum step further, a company will generally wholesale/retail that product for a steep initial price to ensure they get paid off for the R&D and tool-up. The price per unit will most likely come down.

The salts that are formed by combustion of BP help make it both corrosive and HYGROSCOPIC (yes, that is the correct term), meaning it will draw moisture from the air. Since corrosion is by its nature an electrochemical process, salts promote it. The fact that Blackthorn is not corrosive, or at least is billed as such, implies that its residue is neither hygroscopic nor salt containing.

[StarMetal]

When a new product comes out that takes the present technology a quantum step further, a company will generally wholesale/retail that product for a steep initial price to ensure they get paid off for the R&D and tool-up. The price per unit will most likely come down.

The salts that are formed by combustion of BP help make it both corrosive and HYGROSCOPIC (yes, that is the correct term), meaning it will draw moisture from the air. Since corrosion is by its nature an electrochemical process, salts promote it. The fact that Blackthorn is not corrosive, or at least is billed as such, implies that its residue is neither hygroscopic nor salt containing.

Blackhorn 209 is neither corrosive or hygroscopic as mentioned. Triple 777 on the other hand is not corrosive, but is hygroscopic.

About the price, i don't agree...Triple Seven has gone up not down. One poster mentioned buying Triple Seven at Walmart after the gun season is over and it being cheap. Well I don't think the Walmarts in my area of TN will lower it by much, I'd currently $29.99 plus nearly 10 percent sales tax!!!!!! They would have to sell it for around $15 before I even begin to think it's a bargain especially when it's only 10 ounces in loose form. Just like coffee huh, containers got smaller, but the prices didn't.

Joe

[1874Sharps]

Joe,

I have no doubt that many market factors are at work and was just making a general statement about R&D and such that may help to explain the initial high price. I am not so sure about Triple Seven being non-corrosive, as I used to use it before I fully made the turn to the "darkside" and had rust problems with it. If a substance gathers moisture from the air it will promote corrosion, even more so if salts are present.

[Underclocked]

Triple7 is corrosive.

[northmn]

All of the phoney powders are expensive and are marketed and designed for people that either do not want to mess with those things that some of use find fun with black powder or that permit them to be sold in normal retail stores. I order black powder from Graf's but do so in 5 pound lots so that the Haz mat fees are bearable. Even paying Hazmat I can still get BP cheaper than the 777 or especially the Blakhorn. There is a volume trade off such that some of the phoney powders use less powder in weight for charge, but usually not at the price difference. I feel that the only real use for any of the phoney powders is their ability to be sold in a Wal-mart, Fleet store or whatever. None are worth a darn in a flintlock which I shoot mostly. When I shoot percussion I shoot my Rolling Block 45-70 or my Double Hammer 16 ga. Why shoot a black powder firearm if you are not going to experience black powder?

Northmn

[1874Sharps]

Northmn,

I think you are on to something, there. You describe alot of the reasons I fully made the turn to the "darkside". The storage requirements for BP are more onerous and that probably explains why many stores do not carry it but will carry the substitutes that do not have the heavy requirements. It has been my experience in the sultry, balmy South that the 777 brand and Pyrodex were worse offenders with corrosion than regular BP. The real BP in that department is better than the "cure".

[10 ga]

For cheap shooting I stick with BP and patched roundballs. For hammer guns have a 48 twist .58, 48 & 66 twist .50s and they shoot round balls very good. Have 21 and 28 twist inlines and use sabots with cast boolits and REAL boolits in them to great effect and now use BP almost exclusivly in those guns. Have invested in a Savage MLII and it is really cheap to shoot. 40 gr of 4759 makes a lb. of $20 powder go a loooong way. Of course I buy bulk sabots and primers by the K. Of course the cast boolits make it cheap to shoot. 3.5 for primer, 13 for powder, 16 for sabot, 2 for boolit. That is 35 cent a shot. Of course with the roundball guns its 4 for a primer, 28 for BP, 2 for cast roundball for 34 cents a shot. Bout cheap as you can do it. OH.. and remember girls want to have fun too! Both of my daughters love to shoot BP. 10 ga

[StarMetal]

Here we go again. Let's go back before man started sailing beyond the horizon. Here's what they thought and what they were told: "Oh the world is flat"...."Oh no don't do it, you'll sail off the edge of the ocean and be gone forever". Well guess what? The world wasn't/isn't flat, and they didn't sail off the edge of the ocean. What they did do was discover...discover lots of wonderful things and things about the world they lived in. What's the point of this. Well because narrow minded shooters like Northmn and 1874Sharps love older firearms and shooting black powder they mock and down play the some of the new modern stuff. By some I mean the black powder substitutes. Ironic isn't it? I mean I'll bet they both have a favorite modern centerfire cartridge rifle or two. What's ironic about that is you can looks at smokeless powder as a black powder substitute. Before you two get your bloomers all ruffled this is not a flame and I do not dislike you. Understand that? Because you two like black powder you run down the substitutes and the folks who shoot them. That's narrow minded. I endorse all shooting and firearms. I wish shooting was taught in our schools. The more shooting and hunting out there the better. You two would still be sitting in Europe believing the world was flat and that you could sail off the ocean if you had your way. My goodness, lighten up. Substitutes are here to stay and unfortunately BP is going to pass into the past like wheelweights. You are wrong about substitutes came about so they can be sold on Wally World's shelves. Partially true in the sense that the restrictions for storing and selling BP have become more and more restrictive in many areas and the dealers of it have said the hell with it. I don't blame them in a way. Once again I'm not flaming you two, but if you like/love BP don't run down the other powders. Don't force your style of shooting on others because you love it and thinks it's the only it should be done. Be more open minded.

Now here's what Randy Wakeman said on Triple Seven: There is a lot to like about Triple Seven. Though Hodgdon touts the "easy water clean-up," I've not found Pyrodex clean-up to be all that stressful. I like the less felt recoil for a given velocity with Triple Seven loose powder compared to Pyrodex and similar, and I like the added performance from a 90 to 100 grain loose powder charge. Though Hodgdon does not claim Triple Seven as "non-corrosive," it is less corrosive than either blackpowder or Pyrodex. As I always hunt with a fouled bore for accuracy reasons, it is a little extra cushion not present with Pyrodex use.

Here is what muzzle loading.com said: Both powders are non-corrosive. However, Hodgdon Powder Company warns that Triple Seven fouling does tend to draw moisture if left in the bore or on other metal surfaces for any length of time. During my testing last fall, I hunted several months with the same rifle and Blackhorn 209, not cleaning the rifle once - even though the muzzleloader was fired a hundred or more times during that period. When I did tear it down for cleaning, the breech plug came right out...and the bore was wiped spotless with two modern solvent dampened patches. In short, the rifle cleaned up in basically the same time it takes to clean the same rifle after a single afternoon at the range.


Now I think those two know more then the poster that said it was corrosive. Can the poster prove that Triple Seven is corrosive or is it's ability to draw moisture that makes it seem corrosive? Don't forget drawing water and being corrosive are two different things.

Joe

[cajun shooter]

Well as always you have people who take what is written by someone and turn it around to their own liking. I SAID I HEARD THAT 209 WAS HYDROSCOPIC. I'm not a chemist or do I profess to be. 1874 you need to read before you jump. Your reply should have been more informative and not finger pointing about some one being wrong. I wonder if all the fake powders are so good and real BP is so bad why do the fakes try the hardest to be like it? BP has been given a bad rap by a lot of people who don't know a tiny little bit about it. It's listed as a high explosive in Louisiana and you are limited to 5 lbs. All False hoods and scare tactics. Star Metal, I 'm glad that people have the option of buying the fakes. The reason in my state is because of laws that say you must apply for and receive an explosives license and then can only have 50lbs on hand. In Walmarts case that is the reason they don't carry the real thing. Each store would be licensed as a different place. The cost would be a lot and then they would have the problem of ordering much more frequent to have stock on hand. The same goes for the Bass Pro and Cabela's that we have. Don't think that wal-Mart carries them because it's a better product if they could sell the real BP and turn a profit you would see the fakes off the shelf real fast. Wal-Mart works on the bottom line and could care less what a product does. So let's try to get along and promote all shooting instead of looking for the kill zone on our fellow posters.

[wills]

I just had 25 pounds of Diamondback FFF delivered to my door for $250.00. That is $10 per pound. I don’t know what the shipping and haz mat was, it was all included in the price.

[StarMetal]

Wills, please do let us know how it performs. I've been thinking about getting some of it also. Tn is just terrible to purchase BP in my area (eastern TN).

cajun, I agree with you with you. Read above, can't get the BP here very easy. Now that I've learned about that Blackdiamond I may have to poll my friends in the area and make an order.

I've tried a good many substitutes. The only ones so far that really work are from Hodgdon. Pryodex works, but is really really corrosive and in addition burns with a hotter flame. I won't get into that. Now one that amazes me because it's promoted by a big name hunter, Jim Shockey, that is junk far as I'm concerned..and that is that Golden powder. It seems the citrus acid and sugar based ones aren't so great.

Anyways I try not to run down what another man uses or likes. I'm opinionated yes. I like Chevys better the Ford (based on the old day, not current) I like Winchester lever actions more then Marlins, although I own both. I use to love single revolvers more then double actions, but now I own more double actions. I'm glad we have all the choices of firearms and components in this country and the more young people we get out there shooting them, safely and in good sporting manner, the better. I'd rather seen a young teen hunting with substitute BP then not hunting at all. See what I mean.

Again, I didn't mean or intend a flame at the other two fellows. Just trying to open their minds a little. Even I can use that.

Joe

[wills]

Wills, please do let us know how it performs. I've been thinking about getting some of it also. Tn is just terrible to purchase BP in my area (eastern TN).


Joe

It is going to be used for a re-enactment this fall, so i wont have any accuracy results, but for re-encactment purposes, we found it makes a better "bang" than triple seven and is a lot cheaper.

[northmn]

Before you call me narrow minded read the part that says I shoot flintlocks and Blackhorn and777, and the other phoney powders do not work in them. They ABSOLUTELY do not work in flintlocks. You could not prime a flinter with them to get them to work and they have to have a BP primer in them to get them to go. That is one reason to me they are worthless. Another is that they do not perform as well even in my traditional percussion. They also cost more to shoot. It is not a matter of opening my mind if I cannot use the d--n stuff. As I stated about the only advantage they have is that Wal-Mart can stock them.

Northmn

[StarMetal]

Before you call me narrow minded read the part that says I shoot flintlocks and Blackhorn and777, and the other phoney powders do not work in them. They ABSOLUTELY do not work in flintlocks. You could not prime a flinter with them to get them to work and they have to have a BP primer in them to get them to go. That is one reason to me they are worthless. Another is that they do not perform as well even in my traditional percussion. They also cost more to shoot. It is not a matter of opening my mind if I cannot use the d--n stuff. As I stated about the only advantage they have is that Wal-Mart can stock them.

Northmn

Northmn,

I said I'm not flaming you. If I got something wrong or offended you I apologize for that. I agree with you on lots and not on some. I have found Pyrodex and especially 777 to perform exceptional in my inline. That's both on velocity, ignition, less fouling, and accuracy. Now the BP I use to shoot out of it failed on fouling, and 777 beat it on worrying about cleaning it right away. Also 777 with a 200 grain SWC meant for the 45 acp out of my Ruger Old Army gave me 1240 fps. You're not going to get that with BP...maybe, just maybe, if you use FFFg. I'll touch on some of what I mentioned on Pyrodex being hotter flamed. On that Ruger, which is stainless, I got top strap flame cutting, just like what the 357 Maximum did. I also got a flame pit in the hammer nose. So I quit shooting it. I sent the picture of those cuts to Hodgdon, telling them that I wasn't after anything (like free powder, money back, etc.) only information as to why it does it. They said they've never seen anything like that before and suggest I contact Ruger. Yeah right, like now they are going to insinuate that the stainless Ruger used wasn't up to snuff. I don't think so. Some of my very good friends in Ohio said they noticed the same thing with Pyrodex in blued muzzle loading rifles, not inlines either. They also said it was more corrosive then BP in their opinion. I'll have to agree with that.

I would love to buy a flinter, but the lack of easy to obtain BP in this part of the TN prevents me from doing that. I know I should just order a case of it mail order, but wonder how long that is going to last with the anti-gun climate in this country. I also wondered what the flinters would do if all the sudden there was no BP.

I like all the muzzle loader, the old hawkens type, some of the inlines, and especially the cap n ball revolvers. A cap n ball is the first powder firing firearm I bought. I shot the living daylights out of them. I think the 1860 Colt is one of the prettiest looking revolvers ever made.

Watching the movie The Patriot with Mel Gibson made me want to get into a flinter.

Joe

[northmn]

I have tried both Pyrodex and 777 and did not really care for them. One reason was that my percussion did not shoot as well with an equal volume of Pyrodex or 777. At 100 it just did not like them and would group maybe a foot as compared to a couple of inches with 80 grains of 3f. Also as stated I just do not shoot a percussion rifle much. I enjoy building and shooting original looking guns. Some of the BP's complaints as to fouling lies in the lube used and the tightness of the load. 777 is supposed to give higher velocity and does in my 45-70. It gives about 1600+ with a Gould HP. But here is the thing on that. If I want the BP experience out of a 45-70 I use BP, otherwise I use 4198, RE7 or 4227 as they foul a lot less than any of the BP subs. Also, long range BP shooters use black powder because it can be made to have an extreme 10 shot spread of less than 10fps. No other powder will do that. BP is more accurate at long range in a BP designed cartridge and firearm. If I could not get BP maybe the subs would be close. Be aware too that there are now several brands of BP. Some of the advantages of the subs start to decrease if one used Swiss instead of GOEX for instance. Swiss generally gives a little more punch than GOEX and burns "moister" which means its fouling is less severe. Some claim swiss even likes a "softer" ignition and use pistol primers in their cartridge guns. Ignition issues have always been a problem with subs, which is why they now use 209 primers. Pioneer powder is said to be usable in flintlocks, but again so is black powder at less cost. Some don't really care for the stuff either. Finally, I have read chemists stating that Pyrodex is more corrosive than black powder. 777 advertises it cleans up with just water which is interesting as black powder does too. Blackhorn powder is just pretty darned expensive. I am currently using up my 777 in my 16 ga BP cartridge shot shells.

Northmn

[Underclocked]

Quoting Randy isn't much of a boost since I am one of several that helped teach him about muzzleloaders a few years back.

Side by side test of small metal plates exposed to equal quantities of powders burned in the same manner, then stored in a garage such that atmospheric conditions were the same. The plates with Pyrodex showed the fastest onset and rate of corrosion, however the corrosion observed from the T7 plates didn't lag by much. Clean Shot powder produced a puddle of water but had not corroded the plate even after a couple of weeks elapsed. I didn't run the test myself, it was done by a friend in Virginia by the name of Bob Bowers.

Not even Hodgdon claims that T7 is non-corrosive. They do say it is somewhat less corrosive to BRASS.

Triple7 IS corrosive.

[frank505]

We have shot quite a few rounds with BH 209 in the 45 Colt and 475. I can say it is a great powder for lighter loads and does produce a large cloud of smoke. Nice lube ring on the muzzle also. Recovered bullets have ZERO gas cutting on the base band.
Here is some data;
45 colt 20 grs BH 209 Win LP 7.25 barrel 12010 PSI 860 fps SD 32 250 grain bullet

" CCI350 " 16230 930 10
" " 18490 887 4 310 Keith

[frank505]

Hmm seems the confuser reduced the chingus, well you get the idea. It is kinda neat powder, the only problem I've encountered with the stuff is it causes severe drag on the expander plug especially on the larger sizes. Yes I was lazy and did not tumble my brass, that will cure the dragging. I use corn cob and mineral spirits for case cleaning only.

[StarMetal]

Interesting last few posts. Now we're getting somewhere.

Northmn, I can't agree with you more on the 45-70. If you want the BP experience use, if not use smokeless. That's dead on. I shoot 777 out of my TC Blackdiamond inline. I use the original 370 grain Maxi-Ball. I can't bring myself to use the sabots with jacketed bullets, even though I use a more modern inline muzzle loader. With that said I can clover leaf 3-5 shots at 100 yards with 777. Pyrodex is close behind. I tried some of the Jim Shockey Golden power and the standard deviation was all over the place and so were the bullets on the target. I made firecrackers from the rest of it. 777 leaves a light ash in my barrel and that is all. You can always see the lands and groove no matter how much of it I shoot. I haven't experienced the crud ring right front of the powder, but again I don't use the sabots and they say that's what they get it with, the sabots and 209 primers. The Blackhorn is said not to do this. You can shoot it till you get tired so they say.

You're right about BP being very accurate in the cartridges. I do enjoy shooting BP more because I love the smoke and smell.

Joe

[northmn]

Another thing is that I shoot patched roundball in my muzzleloaders and their barrels are slow twist and designed for them. I wonder if the substitutes are not more efficient using the heavier bullets like the Maxi-Ball? Many traditional percussion ML shooters use the substitute powders and like them. There is some little quirk in my percussion 50 that does not. My revolver use the stuff just fine. I remember when Pyrodex came on the scene and it was billed the "replica black powder" In its time it was not really billed as superior to BP but readily available in stores. Inlines were not common at that time. CVA built rifles like the "mountain rifle" and TC had the Hawken and Seneca. The substitutes todya seem to be more aimed at the "modern" muzzleloaders. Its funny how popular the percussion system is as historically it served for only a very short period. flinlock ignition was around for about 200 years and our cartridge systems are now what about 150 years? Percusssion only lasted for about 40 years. It did not take long to put those caps in a cartridge and load from the breech.

Northmn

[1874Sharps]

[QUOTE=cajun shooter;647356]Well as always you have people who take what is written by someone and turn it around to their own liking. I SAID I HEARD THAT 209 WAS HYDROSCOPIC. I'm not a chemist or do I profess to be. 1874 you need to read before you jump. Your reply should have been more informative and not finger pointing about some one being wrong.

I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but have no interest in descending and engaging in a "contesta urina" with you. I was a research chemist in industry and have a degree in the subject (and yes, the term is HYGROSCOPIC) and was trying to offer this perspective.

Joe,

While my wife would certainly agree with many of the points made about me, I meant no offense toward you or your choices or preferences. If you like a given product and it works well for you, that is great and I truly wish you best of luck in your shooting endeavors!

"Once down the path to the darkside you start, forever your destiny dominate, it will!" -- Yoda

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=cajun shooter;647356]Well as always you have people who take what is written by someone and turn it around to their own liking. I SAID I HEARD THAT 209 WAS HYDROSCOPIC. I'm not a chemist or do I profess to be. 1874 you need to read before you jump. Your reply should have been more informative and not finger pointing about some one being wrong.

I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but have no interest in descending and engaging in a "contesta urina" with you. I was a research chemist in industry and have a degree in the subject (and yes, the term is HYGROSCOPIC) and was trying to offer this prospective.

Joe,

While my wife would certainly agree with many of the points made about me, I meant no offense toward you or your choices or preferences. If you like a given product and it works well for you, that is great and I truly wish you best of luck in your shooting endeavors!

"Once down the path to the darkside you start, forever your destiny dominate, it will!" -- Yoda

So many quotes up there I'm not sure who this post was directed at, plus I see "Joe" mentions so.......No offense taken, no offense meant. Just a discussion, just don't want anyone (including myself) to be one sided or bias. Is seems we're doing that now. Some good information getting posted. I certainly am learning some new things.

I think I'll take some mild steel and grind a new fresh exposed area and try the corrosion tests for myself with 777 and Pyrodex. Unfortunately I don't have any BP. I do still have some Jim Shockey powder...oh wait....I have some firecrackers left over from the 4th of July....they do still use BP in those don't they?

Joe

[1874Sharps]

Joe,

Only the part above above after "Joe," was directed to you. The other at the top after Cajun Shooter's quote was to him. Yoda was to everyone for fun. The stuff found in firecrackers, I think, is probably a 50/50 mixture of BP and blasting powder (made from sodium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate, as the sodium stuff is a bit cheaper). If that is the case, the firecracker powder will actually be a little more corrosive (prior to combustion) in theory because sodium nitrate sucks up atmospheric moisture a little more than potassium nitrate. If your corrosion tests involve only post-combustion residue, the firecracker powder should give you a fairly good representation of bona fide black powder. Good luck with it!

[StarMetal]

Joe,

Only the part above above after "Joe," was directed to you. The other at the top after Cajun Shooter's quote was to him. Yoda was to everyone for fun. The stuff found in firecrackers, I think, is probably a 50/50 mixture of BP and blasting powder (made from sodium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate, as the sodium stuff is a bit cheaper). If that is the case, the firecracker powder will actually be a little more corrosive (prior to combustion) in theory because sodium nitrate sucks up atmospheric moisture a little more than potassium nitrate. If your corrosion tests involve only post-combustion residue, the firecracker powder should give you a fairly good representation of bona fide black powder. Good luck with it!

Subject cleared up....thanks Sharps.

Joe

[corvette8n]

Here is my take on Blackhorn 209. I have a CVA inline that I tried real BP, pyrodex, Triple 7. I could only fire one shot, then clean, I could not get the ramrod down the bbl to load a second shot without cleaning.(I pulled the tip off my range rod trying to get the cleaning patch out, had to pull the breach plug and use a dowell to hammer out the patch and rod tip.)
I also tried evey 209 primer both low power and regular, no dice. I tried a can of BH209, worked great for me no crud ring, I could load and shoot 5 to 10 shots before I swabbed the bore. Great for sighting in the scope. So for me it wasn't laziness but a necessity to have clean shooting powder, I just wish it came in pellet form.

[StarMetal]

Here is my take on Blackhorn 209. I have a CVA inline that I tried real BP, pyrodex, Triple 7. I could only fire one shot, then clean, I could not get the ramrod down the bbl to load a second shot without cleaning.(I pulled the tip off my range rod trying to get the cleaning patch out, had to pull the breach plug and use a dowell to hammer out the patch and rod tip.)
I also tried evey 209 primer both low power and regular, no dice. I tried a can of BH209, worked great for me no crud ring, I could load and shoot 5 to 10 shots before I swabbed the bore. Great for sighting in the scope. So for me it wasn't laziness but a necessity to have clean shooting powder, I just wish it came in pellet form.


That's interesting. I found the Pyrodex and 777 beyond a lot cleaner shooting then BP. Take my Ruger Old Army revolver for an example. 24 shots and it becomes difficult to pull the hammer back when using BP. I can shoot indefinitely with Pyrodex or 777. I don't use the Pyrodex in it anymore. Too corrosive and too hot a flame.

In my TC Blackdiamond inline I can shoot quite a lot with 777 and still load fairly easy. It's just a tad worse with Pyrodex, but significantly worse with BP. That's with using TC Bore Butter. I'm not using patched ball nor sabots, but the TC Maxi-Ball. I imagine I could improve the BP, or both, with better lube.

Joe

[Underclocked]

My involvement in Bob Bower's testing was in managing the photos he took as things progressed for the test. He did all the work, I just arranged the raw photos he sent me in such a way to make them presentable and logical. Both of us have managed to lose all those pictures over the years since the test was done (a shame).

As I recall, he took 4" square plates of two types of steel - degreased them, then used a ring shaped object to position all the powders as identically as he could manage. Each plate was situated on a table in his garage. An identical measure (volume) of each of the powders he had available was positioned on its own plate, then ignited.

I don't know the humidity level in the garage but it was probably fairy high (Virginia).

If you do run a similar test, please take some pics and save them. :)

ps: if you can locate some Clear Shot to include in the test, please do. You'll get a good laugh. :)

[lathesmith]

My experience is similar to StarMetal's. I use Pyrodex in a 45 Colt Ruger Vaquero, and the Pyrodex leaves less fouling on the gun and in the barrel than BP, no question about it. With Pyrodex, I can use bullets with smaller lube grooves in this gun, and I still have enough lube that the fouling at the barrel's end is slightly "wet" looking.
Performance-wise, as far as targeting, I couldn't definitively say there is much difference, as both BP and Pyrodex seem up to the job here. Does all this mean that I think Pyrodex is "better" than BP? Once again, I'd hesitate to say that, but for me it's more a question of what is readily available and convenient to use. If I had quite a bit of BP on hand, I'm sure I could make it work quite well in this application. As it is, I Pyrodex is what I use, simply because it is more readily available, and that is what I have on hand. Corrosiveness really isn't an issue, no matter which one I use I'm not going to let the gun or my brass set around for any length of time without cleaning them.
lathesmith

[Squint]

Underclocked,

You said "if you can locate some Clear Shot to include in the test, please do. You'll get a good laugh."

I have been using Clear Shot for a while with good results (other than it being a bit "weaker" than the others) and I have not noticed it being very corrosive. Your comment has me concerned though. Is there something I should be aware of?

And, ...back on thread, has anyone tried the new Blackhorn in a Ruger Old Army? Sounds like it might not light off very well.

[Underclocked]

No, it is the MOST hygroscopic powder I know about... light some on a flat plate outdoors on a humid day and watch what happens. That's the laugh I was talking about. What we saw was a puddle of water where the powder had been. Clear Shot is produced no more so you might want to consider your options.

Squint, I don't think the Ruger is a good candidate for that Ruger or any other revolver. It probably wouldn't ignite.

ps: others are finding that BH209 is corrosive to the extent that a bore left uncleaned after firing firing is subject to rust and pitting. Western has changed the bottle labels accordingly. I don't know if it is the powder residue and exposure to humidity or simply the unprotected metal being in a corrosive environment and left that way. In any case, clean your rifles just as you always have (except use Hoppes or other good solvent on BH209).

[omgb]

Boy oh boy, I can hardly wait to get my head into this fight. First, i shoot BP in cartridge guns and MLs. I tried using 777 and Pyrodex but the accuracy was simply not the same as it was with BP. In my 45-90, I get almost no shot to shot variation. Really, I get as little as 7-12 fps difference and often less using BP. For shot shells, real BP gives good service too.

My ML is Lyman Plains rifle and it shoots MOA at 50 yards using Hornady plastic ball cups and 90 grns of 2F.

My 45-90 Sharps likes a duplex load with 7 grns of RL7 under a compressed load of GOEX 2F and a 530 grn 1/20 LBT slug.

For me, real BP is cheaper, easy enough to get and cleans up easily. The accuracy is superior to the substitutes and loading is darn near fool proof.

[StarMetal]

This is there warning, if you call it that: Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid residue. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which will not harm your muzzleloader. There is no need to clean your barrel immediately after use. However, as with all firearms, we recommend using at least one wet patch of solvent after shooting to protect your barrel from moisture.

I could say the same thing about a rifle barrel possibly rusting after shooting smokeless powder and you don't swab it with a solvent.

The name of the powder implies that you use a 209 primer to light it off. With that said it wouldn't be good to use in a Ruger Old Army.

Joe

[omgb]

Just for the record, I shot a lot of Pyrodex back in the late 70s, literally, several cases. It was OK. I tried RS, P, Ctg and a special grade that had the fines sifted out of it. If it was all I could get, I could work with it. Next I tried American Pioneer. Geez, that was ****. It clumped, it sent velocities all over the place and it made a mess in the brass. I'd prefer never to use that stuff again. My next move was to 777. It shoots OK but SDs are not good. 100 fps difference shot to shot was not uncommon and.....it produced more pressure for sure. You had to be careful how you loaded it or you could get cratered primers without any advance warning. Then the price....it was $22/lb the last time I used it. BP was and is, about $14/lb for GOEX. So, I'm sticking with GOEX but.....I do duplex as noted above. So may be I'm a hybrid kinda guy who's to say?

[omgb]

Hey, we have a crudity filter now...very nice. I used a common colloquialism for feces that rhymes with rap and the program turned it into ****. I rather like that. Keeps me honest. Whom ever did it, thanks.

[omgb]

[QUOTE=1874Sharps;648138]

....I have some firecrackers left over from the 4th of July....they do still use BP in those don't they?

Joe


Not likely. Most firecrackers use a compound called flash powder. it is very different from BP. It burns much faster and makes a much louder report with only a miniscule amount of powder.

[StarMetal]

Just for the record, I shot a lot of Pyrodex back in the late 70s, literally, several cases. It was OK. I tried RS, P, Ctg and a special grade that had the fines sifted out of it. If it was all I could get, I could work with it. Next I tried American Pioneer. Geez, that was ****. It clumped, it sent velocities all over the place and it made a mess in the brass. I'd prefer never to use that stuff again. My next move was to 777. It shoots OK but SDs are not good. 100 fps difference shot to shot was not uncommon and.....it produced more pressure for sure. You had to be careful how you loaded it or you could get cratered primers without any advance warning. Then the price....it was $22/lb the last time I used it. BP was and is, about $14/lb for GOEX. So, I'm sticking with GOEX but.....I do duplex as noted above. So may be I'm a hybrid kinda guy who's to say?

First 45nut posted a thread on what you could use for that word that you had filtered out. Poop is one that you can use. Can't use the one you tried to use. Just making you aware.

Now as to 777 it's great powder. About the best out there except maybe for the upcoming Blackhorn 209. You are getting a wide variation because you may not be tamping the bullet atop the powder to really compress it. All Pyrodex and 777 like and need that. I shoot over the chrono and 777 is in the single digits variation for me. I bet better accuracy then Pyrodex and less fouling. Soon as Wideners gets Blackhorn 209 in I will be testing it.

Joe

[Squint]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was afraid the "good laugh" about Clear Shot was going to be something like that.

I was touted on to the Clear Shot as being virtually non-corrosive but was, of course, pretty doubtful. So, when I first started using it, I decided to test it out. My plan was to leave my barrel dirty and keep it beside my desk where I would not forget to check it often and see what would develop. I would usually go a week or so before the dirty barrel bugged me so much that I would break down and clean it. At no time did I ever observe any corrosion and every time I cleaned it, it came out shiney bright.

I do not discount your observations Underclocked and think the results may have come out much different if I had stored it outdoors. I'll continue to use Clear Shot but will watch it carefully and not be leaving anything uncleaned.

I agree, the BH 209 seems a poor candidate for the ROA but it don't hurt to check. They may call it 209 but they also recommend it for loading cartridges. So, who knows? Anyway, I'll be trying it if I can find some.

Squint

[omgb]

You are getting a wide variation because you may not be tamping the bullet atop the powder to really compress it. All Pyrodex and 777 like and need that. I shoot over the chrono and 777 is in the single digits variation for me. I bet better accuracy then Pyrodex and less fouling. Soon as Wideners gets Blackhorn 209 in I will be testing it.

Joe

My understanding was that 777 is not to be compressed. In fact, i think Hodgdon actually says it both on the can and on the web site. Am I right on this?

[Underclocked]

"Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges."

"Percussion Firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile."

from Hodgdon's loading notes section.

[TexRebel]

well guys I shoot BP Cartridge, Cap an Ball, flinters , even have a wheel lock, by choice i use Goex when i can get it, because i like it, sure it is messy, and has to be cleaned, but half the fun of shooting BP is the smudge it leaves on your face :bigsmyl2:


PS, I don'e even know if pyrodex or Trip 7 even make a cannon powder, so there is another reason I like the old BP, I can even make it if I need to

[BABore]

I just got off the horn with a gentleman from the Western Powder ballistic lab. We were discussing a few things in regards to their Blackhorn 209. Number one is he highly recommended that the powder be tamped down as it was more consistent. He also suggested that I don't use Winchester 209 primers. Said that the Federal or CCI 209's were hotter and they found they worked the best. He also said to avoid the muzzleloader specific 209's as they were too soft for good ignition and they are mainly for 777. I asked about load develeopement as far as working up the powder charge in increments. This is in regards to an in-line MZ loader that is capable of handling 150 grains of Pyrodex or 777. He said that Western had found that near max loadings always showed best accuracy. Also that Hornady had went from min to max, in 1 gr. increments, testing their boolits. Their best accuracy was at 118 grains, 120 is max. I also confirmed that although this powder has the same volumetric measurement as black, that it is 70% of this by weight. So 120 grs by vol. equals 84 grs by wt. I had confirmed this prior as my dealer had related it also.

I fired about 20 rounds of BH209 last weekend for the first time. All charges were weighed at 84 grs and fired in my T/C Encore 50x209. This gun has a tight bore and I've always had to clean between shots for top accuracy. I purposely didn't clean between shots with the BH to see what it would do. I was using Winchester 209 primers and not tamping the powder. Two bad things I found out today.

All loads loaded with pretty much the same force. No powder ring at all. The threaded breech plug came out like I hadn't even shot it. I cleaned the bore to white patch clean with 4-5 patches with Ed's Red and a few dry patches. The breech plug face was wiped a few times with solvent coated patches to clean. Overall, just as Western advertised it. Very little fuss.

As far as accuracy, I'm withholding opinion on that. Groups were definetly bigger than what I was accustomed to with Pyrodex pellets. They ran around 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" for 3-shots at 100 yards. I will be trying them again soon with the recommendations from Western. I will also shoot a few groups and clean between shots. Just to see.

[Underclocked]

BABore, did they advise you to thoroughly clean the breech plug internally? They should have. The channel below the primer cup will fill with carbon deposits if not cleaned routinely. You would need a 1/8" drill bit, turn by hand with some good solvent on the bit.

And I would back down to about 100 grains volumetric for the next effort.

[BABore]

No they didn't, but I will pay attention to it. Thanks.

I did manage to shoot a few rounds yesterday and they were quite positive. I used the following;

My BRP 452-300 Sabot boolit in HP form (290 grains)
Knight Magnum high pressure sabots (black)
CCI 209M Primer
84 grains, by wt., BH 209
Load tamped 3 times

From the bench, at 100 yards, with 9x scope, the first two figure eighted. On the third loading I had a friend yacking at me. When I sat down to shoot I though I had forgot to tamp the charge, so I did it. That shot went wide about an inch. Evidently I had already tamped it prior. Oops! :oops: I reloaded and shot one more to hopefully redeem myself. Lucked out there. It cloverleafed the first two shots for a measured and witnessed 0.500" group. All four shots went 1 1/4". Didn't have time to try swabbing after a couple shots or so. Hopefully on the next outing. So far, so good.

[Underclocked]

Good shooting. What does that boolit look like? Sounds like a good'un.

Is that the one listed as the .452-300 under .50 muzzleloader? Do you have molds for that other than the one you use?

[BABore]

Good shooting. What does that boolit look like? Sounds like a good'un.

Is that the one listed as the .452-300 under .50 muzzleloader? Do you have molds for that other than the one you use?

Yes, it's the one listed on my site. So far, I've only used, and have the two, I have listed. Easy enough to cut more if needed. I have a few other 0.452-0.460 dia., rifle and pistol designs that could be made to work as well. I had 45 2.1 help me design a profile that was as ballistically efficient as possible and still have a hunting meplat. So far, with the 300 grainer, 200 yard drop is within an inch of the Hornady 250 grain SST MZ. I still need to verify the 300 yard drop, but I imagine it will be a bit more than the Hornady. Here's a pic of the 300 (L) and 400 (R) grain boolits. Both drop at 0.453 and have been sized to 0.452 in a push-thru.

[Underclocked]

Are you casting those in pure or wheelweights or ? I like that one on the left, looks like it would fly well and I guess you've proven that already. :) Thanks for the picture.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive tried about all of them. Only one i havent tried is blackhorn. I keep going back to 777 because it gives me the best accuracy. To be honest i did have good luck the year i shot clearshot. Last year i was using goex pinicle and it wasnt to bad but for the most part 777 outshot it. I was going to use pinicle again this year as i had some left over but i got a new gun and it ended up being a nightmare to get shooting well and i used it all up. I bought a new jug and when i opened it i found one big clump of powder. I brought it back and told the dealer (a buddy) and he checked and about half the cans he had were like that. So its got to really suck up moisture.

[BABore]

Are you casting those in pure or wheelweights or ? I like that one on the left, looks like it would fly well and I guess you've proven that already. :) Thanks for the picture.

I use 50/50 WW-Pb and air cooled the boolits. They come out at 9-10 bhn and are less prone to fragmenting and riveting like straight WW's. Since the max load velocity with BH 209 is supposed to be slightly over 2,000 fps, I figured straight Pb might be a tad too soft.

[Underclocked]

If you could design one similar to the 300 grainer, only in .401 caliber at about 230-240 grains - betcha that sucker would fly great using MMP or Harvester blue .50/.40 sabots. You could push it pretty hard and have a reasonably flat shooting bullet that would be plenty adequate for whitetail.

Not that what you have won't work perfectly well.

ps: your bullet reminds me of a White PowerStar which is an absolutely excellent projectile.

[BABore]

That might be something to do when I get a moment of boredom. My only concern would be sabot petal thickness. I have found that accuracy inproves as the petal thickness goes down. At least in my Encore anyway. I've tested the MMC sabots design for 0.429, 0.452, and 0.458. The 458's outshot the rest. Thought it could be the bullets used, so I tried several. The Speer 458, 400 grain was a tackdriver. Before I used my own cast boolits I was using the Hornady 250 SST MZ's. Out of my gun and a couple buddy's Black Diamond's, they would all hover around and inch or under for 3 shots. The 300 grain SST's are even better. The best bullet I've shot was the Barnes copper HP job. The one you can drop a 209 in the HP for storage. My best group was 1 3/8" at 200 yards. Problem was you just about had to jackhammer them down the clean bbl.

I really don't shoot my Encore that much. I really hate cleaning the dang things after each use. Hopefully the BH 209 will help with this.