Question on .30-06 and Unique...

[lead-1]

I shot a load in .30-06 that yeilded roughly a 1 inch group at 50 yards and I want to stretch it out to 100-150 yards. I loaded a LEE 160g cast round nose bullet w/GC over 16 grains of Unique, CCI 200 primer and tumbled in ALOX, I talked with a guy tonight that told me he shot 150-170g bullets over 18g of Unique. My question is, isn't 18g of Unique a little much pistol powder for the .30-06? He told me he was hitting clay pigeons and grapefruits at 200 yards with this 18g load but he used Lyman bullets and Remington primers. This is a Winchester model 70 if it makes a difference.

[MtGun44]

Might be OK, might not. I don't load Unique that high in rifles.

I kind of think that 16 may be pushing things a bit. I like 10 gr of Unique as my "universal
milsurp battle rifle mild cast boolit load". Seems accurate in darned near anything and
is safe in any of the 20th century milsurp bottleneck battle rifles.

I'd look at Lyman's loading manual and see what it says about Unique in .30-06.

Bill

[thx997303]

Excuse my ignorance, but why a handgun powder in a rifle cartridge?

[kjg]

like mygunn said start low and work up, I like unique in everything, low recoil , (my daughter 9 yrs old )love the load, I'm using 15 in 45-70 but 30-06 i lean toward 13 its all ya need in mine, thx because i'm cheap and unique lets me shoot more with less powder , but for higher performance and hunting i switch to different powder and loads. kjg

[lead-1]

I had started at 11.5 g. of Red Dot and 14 g. of Unique and am now at 13 g. of Red Dot and 16 g. of Unique. I found a Lyman reloading Handbook today and it shows 13.5 g. of Red Dot and 16.5 g. of Unique as Max. loads so I am holding tight where I am at. I have reloaded for several years with jacketed bullets and am a rookie at cast, the books that I have aren't very good for cast unless it handgun ammo. I will be glad when my new Lyman Cast Bullet book gets here.

thx997303, the main reason I am working up a handgun powder load for a rifle is a safe reduced load for light recoil so my youngest son can shoot the '06 without getting knocked off the bench.

The Unique load just started to flatten out the primers but doesn't look to be trying to push them out.

[RNyogi]

Excuse my ignorance, but why a handgun powder in a rifle cartridge?
Unique is it's name implies has many uses. Besides handgun loads, I load for my 30/30, 30/40, 30-06. and 35 Remington with Unique and cast boolits. :cbpour:

[Throckmorton]

Why use a handgun powder?
economy mostly,low recoil partly,availabilty right now is also a factor,but that is improving somewhat.
Using approx. 1/3 less powder works for me . ;)

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Lead-1,
I was just looking at my Lyman 49th edition load manual. For a 30-06 with a cast 160gr boolit they have 18gr of Unique as the starting load and 24gr as the max.

[NHlever]

I was shooting loads consisting of 13,14,15,16, and 17 grains of Unique in my 30-36 yesterday behind the Saeco 180 gr FP cast from air cooled wheel weights. The sweet spot for accuracy was the 16 grain charge which shot well under an inch at 50 yards for 5 shots. (see attached photo) My rifle was an NEF Handi Rifle. I've also found a sweet spot with Unique between 10, and 12 grains, and I just use the charge that seals the particular chamber I'm shooting at the time.

[RoyRogers]

Brand new load I tried Sat just before dark.

8.8gr Unique - Lee 185gr cast sized .311 Win m94 30-30 - 100yds off the bench, iron sights & old eyes. 6 shots into 1 1/8". 1st shot at 5 o'clock was a sighter. Changed my hold and the next 6 went into the group shown. For what it's worth,10grs shot into 1.49" in this 94 but was a little too much.

The attached photo doesn't enlarge properly but gets the idea across. Plan to take a box of those loads to the range soon.

10gr Unique seems to work pretty well in the '06 (and 8x57) as a plinking load.

[lead-1]

Looks like I might have to order a couple more new books.

:coffeecom

[selmerfan]

My .30-06 cast load is an RCBS 30-150-SP GC bullet in front of 14 gr. of Unique. 1" groups at 100 yds, oil bottles at 200 yds, but a lot of drop!
Selmerfan

[GabbyM]

Lead-1,
I was just looking at my Lyman 49th edition load manual. For a 30-06 with a cast 160gr boolit they have 18gr of Unique as the starting load and 24gr as the max.

49th also highlights 18gr Unique start load as the potential accuracy load. With bullet #311672 in 160 grain. Velocity 1852 pressure 34,300 P.S.I.

Lyman starts that bullet out faster at higher pressure than other boolits in their book. Probably because that bullet is a real screamer. I happen to have one and got lucky with a good one of correct diameters..

[Lead Fred]

For a guy that shoots dimes 4 out of 5 shots at 200 yards with a 180gr pill.

This thread is the saddest thing Ive ever read.

If you want a weenie firearm, but the kids a 17Hmr.

[selmerfan]

Hey Lead Fred, at the risk of feeding a troll, what's your point with that post, or are you just trying to be a PITA? I love my weenie .30-06 cast boolit loads. They're a blast to shoot, I can shoot them for about the cost of 17 HMR rounds, and I'm getting field position practice and trigger time with the gun that gets my meat for the year. And I'd much rather take a round of 17 HMR in the chest at 200 yds than a 150 gr. .30 caliber cast bullet. I'll take my "weenie" gun and shoot!

[Lead Fred]

seems like a waste of lead to me.

Go ahead and waste away, what ever makes you happy.

even with cast, I try and get them to go as fast as they can to get the most energy I can produce without leading.

Accoridng to your first post, you wouldnt be able to hit at 200 yards.

[selmerfan]

Like I said, at the risk of feeding a troll...

[NHlever]

For a guy that shoots dimes 4 out of 5 shots at 200 yards with a 180gr pill.

This thread is the saddest thing Ive ever read.

If you want a weenie firearm, but the kids a 17Hmr.

Reloading for a keyboard isn't much fun, though I would have to agree that it is much easier to hit dimes at 200 yards with one than it is with most rifles. You have some very special equipment there, and some very special talents too. In the end though I do think you are :kidding:

[Lead Fred]

I would have to agree that it is much easier to hit dimes at 200 yards with one than it is with most rifles. You have some very special equipment there, and some very special talents too.

I hope you see I meant a 06 at 200 yards, not an 17HMR. Im sure you cant load a 180gr bullet in a 17HMR.

[selmerfan]

I suppose a 180 gr. bullet in .17 caliber is possible, but that would be a heck of a long bullet requiring a very, very fast twist. :) I don't think the 17 hmr case could propel it fast enough to achieve any sort of stabilization. We might need to move up to a .378 Wby case necked down to .17 caliber. Then one might be able to stabilize the 180 gr. .17 caliber bullet. :)
Selmerfan

[bruce drake]

SelmerFan,

I've used that same 16gr load with a Ideal 311291 for a good accurate load in my bolt action 30-06 in Highpower 200yard matches without a major issue with tumbling or wind drift. I used my standard 600 yard windage and elevation setting that I use with jacketed bullets and they just kept landing in the black.

Oh, and C.E. Harris, Mattern and several other more esteemed writers have give this load out as a good one for the last 70 years.

Our purple haired troll is just trying to get a rise out of us as we walk near his little bridge. You know, my kids had one of those little purple haired troll dolls for awhile. THankfully they outgrew the phase.

Bruce

[selmerfan]

I was out this morning shooting at the 200 yd range with my .30-06. I had a 20 mph crosswind and ended up with about 8 inches of wind drift at that range to center the quart oil bottles. I enjoy being able to watch the impact through even a 9x scope with the light recoil these loads produce. My .308 with 168 gr. match loads blow them up better, but watching the impact is more fun!

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

It's all good.

Everybody has their own goals as to what they wish to accomplish with their firearms. As long as they're doing it safely, learning things and having fun, you have to respect that.

When I was a young teenager, I really wanted in the worst way to "graduate" from my Rem .22 LR 513-T to high power shooting. Dad gave me a "C" stocked Remmy M1903A3 with micrometer sights. First day I spent shooting it I put around 150 rounds of St. Louis Arsenal vintage 1943 M2 AP ammo through it, and beat my shoulder black & blue. I sure wish he'd started me off with some lighter loads; those were pretty brutal.

One doesn't have to have the bleeding-edge maximum velocity load to have a great deal of fun, or to put rounds in little groups on a target 200 yards away.

[selmerfan]

Well said SWMC. I've even relearned to appreciate an afternoon spent with a .22LR and a brick of ammo. Great way to work on trigger control and sight picture. I'm having fun as long as I'm pulling the trigger, or teaching others to do so.

[RU shooter]

It's all good.

Everybody has their own goals as to what they wish to accomplish with their firearms. As long as they're doing it safely, learning things and having fun, you have to respect that.

When I was a young teenager, I really wanted in the worst way to "graduate" from my Rem .22 LR 513-T to high power shooting. Dad gave me a "C" stocked Remmy M1903A3 with micrometer sights. First day I spent shooting it I put around 150 rounds of St. Louis Arsenal vintage 1943 M2 AP ammo through it, and beat my shoulder black & blue. I sure wish he'd started me off with some lighter loads; those were pretty brutal.

One doesn't have to have the bleeding-edge maximum velocity load to have a great deal of fun, or to put rounds in little groups on a target 200 yards away.
This is exactly why I started casting ! I got tired of a sore shoulder at the end of a 58 rd match with various 30 cal rifles! I guess that classifies me as a wimp shooter [smilie=s: then so be it! My 14 gr. Unique load with two different boolits (lee 155 and the RCBS 165 sil.) will shoot all 10s and X's for a 20 rd slow prone string If I hold hard. I'll take the results and a relaxing and ENJOYABLE 20 rds over having the crap beat outa me by a "real mans" jacketed load any day.

Tim

[Adk Mike]

I shot 50 rounds in my US Remington 1917 in 30-06 today at the local range at steel swingers out to 200 yards and 2 bonus rounds at 400 yards. The load a Lyman 311041 and 12 grains of Unique. Great load easy on the shoulder and the battle sights made up for any drop as long as they were set right. It was a lot of fun and a good day. Mike

[Newtire]

I found the 11.5 gr. Unique with a 150 grainer and 12.5 with the 170-180 grain boolits to be very accurate in my '06.

In the .30-30, the loads over 8-9 grains of Unique and a 120-150 grain wt. got worse accuracy as I went higher so settled on the lower charges.

For the faster loads, I have been having great luck with more powder using RX-7 in .30-06 and H-335 in .30-30 but then the cost goes up.

I keep a couple of cigar boxes full of the lighter loads for when the kids come down and they have a ball.

[qajaq59]

I used to use loads of Unique in my 30-30s because I wanted to practice shooting while standing, and I knew I was going to burn up at least a 100 rounds of 30-30 a week doing it. Using 7 grains of Unique behind a cast bullet meant that I could shoot for 10 weeks with a single pound of powder. That is quite a savings over say IMR 3031 or some of the others. Plus there is virtual no recoil, so I didn't have to worry about fatigue or developing a flinch. I found it better then dry firing which bored me to death.

[pmeisel]

One other advantage of pistol powders in rifles....

I am mainly a revolver shooter. I always have Unique, 2400, and 4227 on hand. Being able to shoot one or two of these in my 7.62x39, or the 30/30 I am shopping for, keeps me from stocking more powder.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Go ahead and waste away, what ever makes you happy.

even with cast, I try and get them to go as fast as they can to get the most energy I can produce without leading.


I agree with Lead Fred. You're going to need much more energy to kill those paper targets cleanly. I cringe when I hear people talking about using such weenie loads to hunt paper. You should be ashamed at all the wounded targets you have undoubtedly let wander off to die a lingering death. :veryconfu
I made the mistake of loading my 8mm Mauser (Yogo 24/47) with a Lee 175 gr. boolit on top of a wimpy 19 gr. of 2400. Boolits are loafing out at 1650, maybe even 1700 fps. This load let me down terribly at our last CMP military bolt gun match. In slow fire prone it shot a measly 98-5X. I am sure the two 9's were not me, couldn't have been. Had to be the poor load choice.
Give me a break. Not all worthwile shooting is measured in KE. [smilie=b:

[dsmjon]

I tried some 'weenie' loads in the 30/30 about a month ago. I LOVE Unique, and having acquired +/- 10lbs of it, I try to use it wherever possible.

So I took some advise, loaded 13(?)gr. Unique under a 135gr. cast slug. (question mark indicates my forgetfullness right now, I have it written downstairs...)

Went to the range (indoor 100yds), set the target up at 50yards, as I didn't want to inhumanely injure the paper knowing that I'd be shooting a light load...

Began with my 'standard' load, straight out of the book, 31gr of IMR 4895 under same bullet. Groups mediocre @ 50yards, I'm not worried about de-winging a fly in flight here...

Swapped to the Unique loads, aiming for the same group of holes I just put through the poor defenseless paper.. Only to see new holes appearing about 8" low and to the left. Shot the remaining 20 Unique loads, and they went all over the target, all b/w about 8-10" off of my hold spot.

I really felt like a golfball out of a slingshot! I'm not out to debunk what anyone here is posting, I'm just curious about my results. I will be trying various loads with the Unique, as I said, I love the powder and have a lot more of it to burn up than anything else at my disposal right now. BUT, had I tried these shots at this indoor range at the long end (100yds), I know good and well the boolits would either be bouncing off the rafters or smacking the floor before hitting paper.

Any ideas? .308" cast boolit, Marlin 336 (gold trigger model) microgroove 30/30. I have been recommended to step up to a .310" dia boolit, as these particular Marlins run a little on the large side (I.D.).

[GrizzLeeBear]

dsmjon, Unique is a great powder for cast boolit loads, but it is NOT one to try and get maximum velocity with. I don't think your problem is the powder itself, but your load maybe.
1st, are they gas checked boolits? My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (you should have one of these, by the way, if you want to continue shooting cast boolits) doesn't list a boolit of that wieght in 30-30, but shows a 115 gr. boolit with a max. load of 11.4 gr. of Unique for 1913 fps and 36,400 C.U.P. Also lists 151 gr. boolit with a max. load of 11.0 gr. of Unique for 1691 fps and 37,300 C.U.P. I think your load is a bit too hot. If your boolits are gas checked, try loading 5 each at 9, 10 and 11 grains and see which one groups best. This should get you 1500 - 1600 fps.
Slug your barrel so you know exactly what the dia. is. There are a bunch of threads here describing several good ways to do it. Even if you don't slug it, the .308 boolits were very likely undersized. The .310 boolits would probably be better.
I am assuming your "straight out of the book" load was a jacketed bullet load. 31 gr. of 4895 should be 2100+ fps with that boolit. Which is doable with a cast boolit IF you have a boolit that fits the throat and fills the bore properly with a good lube. Try the .310 sized boolits with 25 gr. of 4895 and work your way up to 31 gr. in 1 gr. increments. I'm guessing that around 29 - 30 gr. the groups will start opening up.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

dsmjon,
I'd say your first step would be to slug your barrel in order to find out what you're really dealing with.

13 grains of Unique with a 135gr boolit in a 30/30 is a couple of grains higher than my old books go; in other words, you're pushing things a bit too much, and may be getting pretty high chamber pressure spikes. I'd start out closer to 7.5gr-8gr and work up slowly; about 0.4 grains per step.

Your 4895 loads seem a bit on the high end, but at least you should still be in reasonable chamber pressure range. Try dropping it down to about 28 grains and see how it shoots there.

[eta]
GrizzLeeBear, we cross-posted. [smilie=b: Nice that we independently came up pretty closely on what dsmjon's approach should be. :smile:

I suggested 7.5gr-8gr starting load for Unique, because my Lyman #45 shows 7.5gr starting for both 120gr and 150gr cast. Going up by 0.4gr from 8gr is a 5% increase for that initial step; there's less of a chance of skipping over that "sweet spot".

For IMR 4895 I only have j-word load data. 110gr bullets start at 31gr and end at 34gr. 150gr bullets start at 28gr and end at 31gr. So by extrapolation (dicey at best, deadly at worst) 31gr IMR 4895 with a 135gr bullet is about midrange. With a lead boolit, it's really too much.

Going by Hodgdon's 60% rule (H4895 ONLY can be loaded as low as 60% of max), he could start with as little as 20gr and work up from there. An 80% max load (est. 33gr.) would be 26.4 gr.

[qajaq59]

For what it's worth......I was getting shotgun patterns with Unique and cast, such as you have described. Two things changed it completely. I slugged the barrel and then sized them properly and I started belling the cases. The difference was really significant. I also worked up the load a bit at a time until I found the sweet spot, which by the way, was no where near the max.

[dsmjon]

I have slugged the barrel, rekon I will do it again. Will also look for the Lyman Cast book, it's been suggested before, sounds like it must be time, LOL.

[dsmjon]

Grizz- Is there a specific (or preferred) edition of the Lyman Cast Handbook to look for?

[GrizzLeeBear]

Third edition is the latest. Came out about 1980 and hasn't been revised since, but is still being printed.

[dsmjon]

Well, for whatever the hell I did the 1st time I slugged the barrel it wasn't right. I was indeed lobbing .308" boolits down a .308" bore. I've got about 40 or so .310" JSP that I'll try out with the Unique this weekend. The cannalure is short (fairly close to the tail), looks like probably for a 303Brit. Any forseeable problems, so long as the COAL is ok?

[Rocky Raab]

I have a *.pdf file of an original load brochure published in (I believe) 1935, which says that Unique was created for low-power loads in RIFLES. Here's an excerpt from the first page...

Hercules UNIQUE was
first manufactured by the Laflin & Rand
Powder Company about the year 1898, or
shortly thereafter, and has been continuously
on the American market ever since.
It has been known generally to reloaders as
a stable and dependable powder for lowpower
or gallery loads for all caliber rifles.

There are pages of load data, from 22 Hornet through 8mm Mauser - including many for the .30-06.

So the question posed above really OUGHT to be "Why are we using a rifle powder in handguns and shotguns?"

[GrizzLeeBear]

Well, for whatever the hell I did the 1st time I slugged the barrel it wasn't right. I was indeed lobbing .308" boolits down a .308" bore. I've got about 40 or so .310" JSP that I'll try out with the Unique this weekend. The cannalure is short (fairly close to the tail), looks like probably for a 303Brit. Any forseeable problems, so long as the COAL is ok?

If you are shooting them in a lever action, YES THAT IS A PROBLEM! Do not shoot "pointy" bullets in a lever action. Use flat nosed bullets only, remember in a tube magazine the nose of each round rests against the primer of the round ahead of it. Primers do not react well (in the magazine) to being banged against pointy things under recoil. All of the bullet companies make FP jacketed bullets for the 30-30.
With jacketed, stay with .308 bullets. For cast size your boolits .309 - .310.
Also, Unique may work for plinking/small game loads with light jacketed bullets, but I would not try to make deer hunting loads/velocities with it, especially with heavier jacketed bullets. Use the 4895 for full power loads (jacketed or cast) and use the Unique for light to medium cast loads.

[Echo]

I suppose a 180 gr. bullet in .17 caliber is possible, but that would be a heck of a long bullet requiring a very, very fast twist. :)
Selmerfan

And set a new record for freebore (measured with a ruler)...:D

[dsmjon]

nonnono, no spire points in the lever gun.. These I guess would be JSP-FN?

[dsmjon]

Actually I might be getting senile in my young age. I was shooting 165gr cast, sized @ .308". (Where earlier I said 135gr). I forget the brand name, the only cast available at the time from Midway. To clear my mind, if I slugged the barrel to .308" (max OD of boolit after slugging), use .308" jacketed or .310" cast?

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Actually I might be getting senile in my young age. I was shooting 165gr cast, sized @ .308". (Where earlier I said 135gr). I forget the brand name, the only cast available at the time from Midway.

OK, the 165 gr boolit is going to need a lower starting load than was previously suggested.
Drop the 4895 starting load down to 24gr., work up by 1 gr, suggested max is 29gr.
Drop the Unique starting load down to 7gr., work up by 0.4gr, max is 10.6gr.


To clear my mind, if I slugged the barrel to .308" (max OD of boolit after slugging), use .308" jacketed or .310" cast?
Use the bore diameter for J-word boolits, 0.001" over for cast.

[Three44s]

For a guy that shoots dimes 4 out of 5 shots at 200 yards with a 180gr pill.

This thread is the saddest thing Ive ever read.

If you want a weenie firearm, but the kids a 17Hmr.

Sad?

Weenie firearm?

Wrong forum?

Three 44s

[NickSS]

I have fired litterally thousands of 30-06 rounds with cast bullets loaded with Unique. Most shooting was done at 100 yards and used a Lyman 165 gr RNGC bullet cast from wheel weights air cooled. My standard load was 15 gr of Unique and in my Sako the average group size for a five shot group was approximately 1 to 1.25 inches. This was day in and day out. One other thing I noted was that this load would completely penetrate a 12 inch diameter Douglass fir tree.

[qajaq59]

What some people should keep in mind is that many of us are 70+ and have arthitis in all the places where we got smashed up doing all the stupid, crazy, macho, manly things as young guys. But hopefully, if you're really lucky, you'll get to our age and end up just like we are. It's easy..... all you have to do is wait!!!
Have fun, but try not to break too many bones, because they hurt like hell 50 years later. ha ha ha

[Brother_Love]

I am going to the range (backyard) tomorrow morning with these loads. These are Lyman 311413 bullets at 172 grs each over 15.0 grains of Unique, FC cases, 30/06. If they shoot as good as they look, I will be real happy with them.
Malcolm
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/revrun4/311413a.jpg

[lead-1]

Looks good, if you would check back in and let us know how they do.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

I am going to the range (backyard) tomorrow morning with these loads. These are Lyman 311413 bullets at 172 grs each over 15.0 grains of Unique, FC cases, 30/06. If they shoot as good as they look, I will be real happy with them.
Malcolm

Hiya Malcolm,
Those boolits look bootiful :-D

However, I think you're going to find that 15gr of Unique is a bit too fast for that boolit.
Since you're SO fortunate to have a range in the backyard, could ya do us a favor and try some of these boolits with 12gr to 14grs of Unique to see how those loads group?
12gr should get around 1510 fps. 16.5 would put you at around 1850 fps, and I know that's at least 200 fps too fast.

My Dad found that 15gr of IMR 4759 with that boolit could make 2-1/8"x 2-7/8" groups at 200 yards. Unique is a much faster-burning powder than 4759. One of the big problems with these boolits is that trying to drive them hard will get the boolit cocked sideways in the barrel.

I'm looking at the NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook, published in 1960, at an article entitled "Cast Bullets in Rifles, General Considerations, part 1 of 4" by Col. E. H. Harrison, USA (Ret'd). On page 93, there is a picture of a pair of what looks like these exact boolits, one fired with 10gr Unique, and one fired with 18gr Unique. The one fired with 10gr looks perfectly normal; but the one fired with 18gr was very obviously badly cocked sideways in the rifling, causing the boolit to yaw wildly inaccurate on leaving the barrel.

I'm thinking that around 14gr to 17gr 2400 would be a better choice than Unique, because it's much slower burning - not as slow as 4759 though.

I'm thinking of trying even slower powders again. I'd used 25g to 35g H4895 with them back in the early 70's, but unfortunately I didn't record what the results were. (I was 16 then; I guess I figured I'd remember it forever, right? :roll: )

[qajaq59]

I'd be interested to see how well they did with the Unique. I tried several powders with them in my 308 and the only really good results were A2400. That works real well.

[Brother_Love]

Back from backyard! first group to sight in a 25 yds, 3 shots in 1.25"! I was pumped and moved the target to 50 yds. Best group I got at 50 was a disappointing 2.2".

On the up side, I have 20 empty shells to reload. I am going to drop back to 12.5 & 13.5 grs of Unique. If that does have some promise I will buy some 2400 or 4759.

Malcolm

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

I'd be interested to see how well they did with the Unique. I tried several powders with them in my 308 and the only really good results were A2400. That works real well.

Would you care to share what powders and loads you've tried with that boolit that did and did not work well with that boolit? It seems that a number of others here have the same or similar spire-point molds. It could be helpful to all of us if we share such information.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Back from backyard! first group to sight in a 25 yds, 3 shots in 1.25"! I was pumped and moved the target to 50 yds. Best group I got at 50 was a disappointing 2.2".
How do the holes through the target look? Are they perfectly concentric, or is there evidence that the boolits were yawing? I'm betting on the latter.
How hard are the boolits? Are you using air-cooled WW's or something else?

The boolits we were testing many years ago were all cast of pure lead, Lyman loob, sized to 0.309"


On the up side, I have 20 empty shells to reload. I am going to drop back to 12.5 & 13.5 grs of Unique. If that does have some promise I will buy some 2400 or 4759.

Do you have some H4895 or IMR 4895 around? I'm thinking that somewhere in the range of 25gr-30gr might just work pretty well with these boolits. 4895 is a good bit slower than 4759, so would give even a more gentle push down the barrel, which seems to be what's needed.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Here's a scan of the photo in the article I mentioned earlier.

It sure looks like these 311413 boolits, or a very close copy.

[qajaq59]

Would you care to share what powders and loads you've tried with that boolit that did and did not work well with that boolit? It seems that a number of others here have the same or similar spire-point molds. It could be helpful to all of us if we share such information.

It was a couple of the guys in here that put me onto the 2400. That was accurate anywhere between 14 and 16 GRS so I never went higher. and I remember trying IMR 3031 because it works well in my 30-30s and I had it handy. But I couldn't get a good group. The other powder I don't recall. It's been a while.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

It was a couple of the guys in here that put me onto the 2400. That was accurate anywhere between 14 and 16 GRS so I never went higher. and I remember trying IMR 3031 because it works well in my 30-30s and I had it handy. But I couldn't get a good group.
Very interesting, thanks. 2400 was one of the powders I was considering; I just don't happen to have any.

IMR 3031 is pretty tough to use with a powder throw because of it's long grain and tendency to "bridge". Those little logs gave me some fits when I was loading .223 Rem with it; wound up weighing every charge and watching them bridge as they slid down the funnel. :roll:

Do you remember if you weighed your loads when you tried 3031? I was considering trying it again with these boolits, but not much point in that if you're pretty certain the charges were reasonably accurate.

My Dad had tried IMR 3031 with this boolit back in 1957 in .30-06 at 31gr to 35gr; all results were recorded as "inaccurate." I was considering going to a lower charge, but I don't know how well 3031 would do that far below the minimums.

I'd experiment with SR 4759 some more, but haven't been able to find it lately.

[qajaq59]

Very interesting, thanks. 2400 was one of the powders I was considering; I just don't happen to have any.

IMR 3031 is pretty tough to use with a powder throw because of it's long grain and tendency to "bridge". Those little logs gave me some fits when I was loading .223 Rem with it; wound up weighing every charge and watching them bridge as they slid down the funnel.

Do you remember if you weighed your loads when you tried 3031? I was considering trying it with these boolits, but not much point in that if you're pretty certain the charges were reasonably accurate.

I'd experiment with SR 4759 some more, but haven't been able to find it lately.

I'd say the 2400 is worth a try. I'm unable to walk far enough to put up targets at 100 yards, but at 50 I use 1 inch dots for targets and that #311413 with the 2400 will generally make them disappear pretty quickly. And I'm certainly no ace when it comes to accuracy, so they can't be too bad.
When I'm working up a load I usually weigh every round for the first 50, so my guess is I weighed the 3031. I can't remember how much I used though because I got the starter load from somewhere in the web. I didn't have the #311413 in any of my manuals. But it wasn't even close to the accuracy of the 2400.
And because years ago I had 3 squibs in a row, I now use a clear funnel to drop powder from my measure regardless what kind of powder it is. I want to see it fall. It's a bit slower, but I have lots of time.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Great, thanks! :)

I'd forgotten about this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=41474
It's all about the 311413, but should apply to other similar spire-point lead boolits. Looks like other folks here have gotten good results from 2400.

I'd also forgotten that my Dad had tried 20gr of 3031 with this same boolit, and had only fair results; 7-1/2" x 4" @ 200 yards. I don't know for certain whether or not he weighed all of his charges, but he probably did. It's likely that 3031 went right from pooshing the boolit too fast down to sporadic ignition due to the reduced charge in the large case size.

[Brother_Love]

How do the holes through the target look? Are they perfectly concentric, or is there evidence that the boolits were yawing? I'm betting on the latter.

They looked concentric, but I am using targets printed on copier paper and it is hard to tell on that kind of paper. I will retreive them later this morning and check closer.

Added a couple of target photos. I ironed them flat so I could see better. They look concentric to me. In the photo with 2 targets; left 25 yds; right 50 yds.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/revrun4/a_1.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/revrun4/a_2.jpg

How hard are the boolits? Are you using air-cooled WW's or something else?

I am using Lyman #2 alloy.

The boolits we were testing many years ago were all cast of pure lead, Lyman loob, sized to 0.309"

Mine were sized at .309" too. I am slugging the bore today and may try some sized at .311".
Bore slugged with groove dia of .3096, I WILL try the .311" sized boolits now. This is a jc higgins model 50, FN action and will shoot factory ammo into 1" consistantly. I know there has to be a good cast load out there somewhere. I hope to find it!



Do you have some H4895 or IMR 4895 around? I'm thinking that somewhere in the range of 25gr-30gr might just work pretty well with these boolits. 4895 is a good bit slower than 4759, so would give even a more gentle push down the barrel, which seems to be what's needed.

I have no 4895 or 2400 and unfortunately neither did either of my local sources. I am going to try a 12-13 gr charge of Unique and a load using IMR 4198 which I have on hand. Maybe I will get back to the range with it by Monday (raining today).

Malcolm

[/QUOTE]

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Those holes look mighty concentric to me - but I guess just a small amount of yaw would be pretty hard to see on paper.

It's funny, I just measured some of these boolits that I'd run through a Lyman 45 lubrisizer with a .311 die back in December 1970 - they measure in right at .309". Do you suppose these boolits shrank .002" in 39 years? :veryconfu

TexRed told me about Wilk gas checks last night in chat. Very interesting! I added a link to an article over in the 311413 thread about that. A fellow by the name of Ed Wilk came up with the idea of punching a hole in the bottom of a GC so that you could add GC's to cast boolits that the mold wasn't designed to incorporate. You just pour alloy right through the hole in the GC.

But then the idea was taken further; use another holed GC further forward in the boolit mold, say on the 1st drive band. This gives you a pair of brass or copper reinforcing points on the boolit, which helps a great deal to prevent the boolit from getting cocked sideways. In the article, they were using the Wilk GC method for 7mm, and getting very small groups at 2,800 fps! :shock: Won't be able to push these boolits that fast, but 2,300-2,400 using slow powders should be quite do-able.

One thing they don't mention in the article is adhesion of the alloy to the GC's. If you've handled the GC's at all, you'll get finger oils on them, and the alloy won't flow on the GC (think soldering) so it would actually weaken the boolit when used on a drive band. However, I will clean my GC's before hand with isopropyl alcohol, etch them for 30 seconds using a muriatic acid bath (available at pool supply stores; don't breathe this stuff) and tin them using a Sn63/Pb37 solder pot I have. Might be a bit tedious, but it's just a test. If it works really well, I'll figure out a faster process later.

If I can find my danged boxes of .30 cal GC's I'm going to give it a whirl, and try them in .30-06 with 39-42gr of Varget and 45-48gr IMR 4350, which are the slowest powders I have on hand right now. That should get them going around 2300-2500fps

[45 2.1]

TexRed told me about Wilk gas checks last night in chat. Very interesting! I added a link to an article over in the 311413 thread about that. A fellow by the name of Ed Wilk came up with the idea of punching a hole in the bottom of a GC so that you could add GC's to cast boolits that the mold wasn't designed to incorporate. You just pour alloy right through the hole in the GC.

But then the idea was taken further; use another holed GC further forward in the boolit mold, say on the 1st drive band. This gives you a pair of brass or copper reinforcing points on the boolit, which helps a great deal to prevent the boolit from getting cocked sideways. In the article, they were using the Wilk GC method for 7mm, and getting very small groups at 2,800 fps! :shock: Won't be able to push these boolits that fast, but 2,300-2,400 using slow powders should be quite do-able.

That article was in one of Wolfe's Cast Bullet Annuals. What it doesn't say is that Barnes produced those little drive bands commercially back in the 50's and they were advertised, so to speak, in the Lyman manual of that era.

[Ben]

Excuse my ignorance, but why a handgun powder in a rifle cartridge?

thx997303 :

Hopefully these photos may help answer your question :

Here are some groups I fired recently with Unique and cast boolits in this Springfield 1903 - A3 , Target rifle :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/03%20-%20A3%2006/IMG_1411.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/03%20-%20A3%2006/PICT0003Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/03%20-%20A3%2006/IMG_1417.jpg

Super accurate, minimal recoil, easy on the rifle's barrel , very cost effective $ $ $ with low charge rates of powder in each case.

Thanks,

Ben

[OBIII]

Hi,
I have recently started reloading after a 30 year hiatus, and have no manuals (money spent on reloading items). I received 147 gr. steel core jacketed .308 boolits and am currently reloading with 11.2 grains of Unique. I have always used Unique since I started reloading in the 70's, and like it. I have also obtained some 1680 for my 7.62 x 39 mm and could use some loads for that. I hope that one of you kind gentlepeople will provide me with some min/max load info for what I have.
Thanks,
OB

[stephen perry]

Pistol shooters should never answer rifle posts. Unique is by it's name a special powder capable of good cast loads in rifle, pistol, and shotgun loads, this has been discussed on Cast boolits before. I have loaded Unique in 30-06 Cast for 45 years, bolt guns and semi auto. Use as much Unique as you want. The Lyman 'Handbook of Cast Bullets' lists a Unique load for most if not all it's suggested loads. I use 311466 and 311413 for the mid Cast bullet load in a 30-06. The current Lyman manuals show the same similar using Unique loads for 150-155 grn Cast.

Experience talks in Cast. Been there done that still do that.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[excavman]

When I started using cast boolits 40+ years ago I loaded them as you would J-bullets, same powder, same velocity. I found out real quick that does't work. I bought the Lyman manual,#44 I think, and started using Unique and 2400 and light loads. I still use Unique and 2400 in everything from a 218Bee to a 45-70 100K+ rounds and 40 years later, see no reason to change.

Larry

[Single Shot]

What some people should keep in mind is that many of us are 70+ and have arthitis in all the places where we got smashed up doing all the stupid, crazy, macho, manly things as young guys. But hopefully, if you're really lucky, you'll get to our age and end up just like we are. It's easy..... all you have to do is wait!!!
Have fun, but try not to break too many bones, because they hurt like hell 50 years later. ha ha ha


And that is why I use Unique in a 30-06. Dumped a motorcycle more than once, back in the day, when learning how to race them.

[GabbyM]

I have a Lyman #311672. This is a light for 30-06 bullet at 160 grains. Mold had a reputation early on for dropping boolits with underside noses. Mine makes a perfect .310 x .300 inch boolit. Charge right out of the Lyman 3rd. Listed in bold as the accuracy load. 18.0 grains of Unique for published 1852 fps and 34,300 psi. I've shot 28.0 grains of Rx7 under this 160 grain boolit and it's a great load. Unique uses a full ten grains less powder to do the same thing. Plus Unique is much cheaper per pound than Alliant Rx7. Those little 160 grain SP boolits are plenty of lead at 100 yard paper. For my 200 grain and up boolits I'm starting to play with IMR-7828 which is slower than some 20mm cannon powder and takes about a case full. I love my new 30-06. Why did it take me forty years to get one? Well I know why. Because when I was a kid. All the "old men" had them.

I shoot 243 Win AI and 270 Win. Both over bore rounds. Unique works great in these cavernous cases. Get the pressure up around 32,000 psi plus and it burns clean and has enough pressure for a case seal in the chamber to keep cases clean. In the 270 I like Unique under my 122 grain Loverin. But use fast rifle powder or 5744 under the 150 grain RCBS. That 122 grain discontinued boolit over the Unique is my favorite load in 270 Win. My Unique rifle loads run so clean all I do after shooting is wipe bore down with patch soaked in ATF or Ed's Red. Then swab chamber with same.

[mikeym1a]

The Lyman Cast Boolit Manual #3 shows for the 151gr cast boolit a starting load of Unique of 12.5grs for 1636fps@25,200CUP and a max load of 17grs for 1941fps@37,300CUP. Seems rather high to me, as well, but Lyman says it is safe. As usual, approach with care.

[vrh]

I load 16 grains of Unique powder behind 170 grain Lee cast bullet in my 30-06 rifle. Keeps three shot groups at 1 1/2 inch. Like the low recoil also. POI is approx.: 2 inches below my regular hunting jacket bullet load. Didn't change my scope settings, just held 2 inches high and they dropped right in there at 100 yds.:-P

[kjohn]

Interesting thread. I have used Unique in several different calibers and rifles, to good effect. I am another one who likes the low recoil, as well as the idea of using 10 or so grains of powder as opposed to 40 or more, just to shoot paper. In the 50 years I have been reloading, I have yet to find the "maximum load" a rifle can hack and not blow primers and stick in chambers. I simply enjoy shooting.

Recently, I scored a 10 lb keg of Unique for $50, and a 5 lb of 700X, unopened, for $80. [smilie=w: That should keep me shooting for an afternoon or two!


Thanks to all the people who contribute to this and other forums in a reasonable manner. :)

[fastdadio]

Bumping up a great old thread. I just read through the whole thing. I have a question, can I substitute BR-5 for Unique in these reduced loads for 30-06 and 30-30?
I bought 6 lbs of BR-5 from Jeff Bartlett a while back, the instruction sheet says to use Unique data when loading with it. My usual favorites 2400, Tightgroup, and H4895 have been hard to find and my stocks are low for these. So what say the collective, any of you folks tried this stuff for reduced loads?
Thanks,
Dave.