Casting Experiment

[Dale53]

As most of you know, my general policy is to add 2% tin to my bullet alloys. Standard and up through "medium" loads (medium being 1000 fps or so) is WW's + 2% tin. Over 1000 fps to 1500 fps I use harder bullets (18 brinell ) which includes 2% tin. The tin is added to make a BETTER alloy (it works well with antimony to reduce brittleness and it SERIOUSLY reduces surface tension and fills out the mould details MUCH better).

Yesterday, I decided to take an LBT 240 gr WFN four cavity bullet mould that is one of my "Premium" moulds and try straight wheel weight alloy to cast with. No tin other than what might have been in the WW's (not much, I venture, after being originally cast into wheel weights, then smelted by a bullet caster, then melted again to cast with.

Keep in mind, when I say "Premium" I am talking about casting qualities. Out of 65 or 70 moulds I have probably no more than a dozen moulds that fall into the Premium category. Those, that are just a JOY to cast with. No frustration, perfect fill out from the "get go" just makes it FUN to be there.

At any rate, this mould typically throws bullets pretty much like shelling corn (and old farmer statement that indicates near perfect bullets that just fall out of the mould). I pre-heated the mould on the hotplate while the bullet metal was melting. After the pot came up to temperature, I was ready to start casting. I cast 21 lbs of bullets. The casting experience was quite a bit less fun than normal. It was, by no means, terrible, but it was NOT typical. I had MANY more rejects from bullets not filling out perfectly, some sunken bases and a considerable number of rounded bases. The bullets were also a bit reluctant to drop from the mould (not horrible, but not nearly so good as normal). Normally, I only have 6-12 bullets that don't make the grade out of 21 lbs (pot full). This time I'll bet I'll have fifty or sixty rejects when I size them. Now, understand, I am REAL critical when examining my cast bullets. So, bottom line, the tin DOES make a big difference to me.

I would cast bullets without tin if I had no option but I sure will not be doing this by choice in the future (just like I have always added tin in the past).

Now, I make no pretense that this was a scientifically controlled experiment. However, I am convinced that the metalurgists have been right all along. Gee, who woulda thought it? :groner:

I will continue to keep a small pocket calculator by my kitchen scale (for lead) and my postal scale (for tin) and use them every time I load up the pot. 2% tin to all of my alloys, both hard and standard. The EXCELLENT casting experience is worth it much less the wasted time in having to recast dozens of bullets.

I have no quarrel with those that refuse to spend the extra for the tin (can often be found at a really good price if you keep your eyes open) but you might want to re-examine your priorities. My tin has cost me $4.50-$5.00 per lb but even if you use an $8.00 per lb factor the cost per bullet is low: by my calculations, ½ cent per bullet additional cost. 612 bullets cost me $3.36 cents for not only better casting but better bullets.

Dale53

[JRW]

Dale53: I am new to a lot of this world, (Have really only used WW for handgun stuff) and wonder where you are buying the tin for your mix? I want to try this after much advice from others on the forum. This is a very helpful bunch of folks on this forum! Thanks, Jim.

[jdgabbard]

I have found that tin does make casting much better when considering the amount of rejects compared to straight WW. However, I will point out that this test is less then scientific. Just saying I agree with you, but I have had great luck with castin gwith straight WW before, and now. Mostly because I'm out of tin at the moment.

To answer JRW, most guys use 50/50 solder, or 60/40... Just what you have. Though you can look to Rotometals (add at the very top of the page) for ingots of 99% tin. They actually are a decent price too I think...

[mooman76]

I tried the adding tin and I wasn't impressed. I am satisfied with straight WWs myself but I am not as picky as other. This is not intended to be a slam just to me life is too short to worry about it especially with pistol bullets which are shot short distance and minor defects mean less than a rifle bullet being shoot a distance. As long as the bullets are filled out and look reasonably good to me, I'm satisfied.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I do a lot of pistol work and cast all my own using straight WW. No problems with fillout and things go well. I do go to the tin addition for rifle as often a harder bullet is needed at greater distances; I could get around that by doing water quenching. However where the addition of tin becomes a real plus factor is when casting bullet designs (particularly in smaller calibers like .25, 6.5 or 30) such as Loverins or others where multiple bands and grooves are closer together. That can sometimes be a challenge and using some tin...usually 2% can help a lot to get consistent and better fillout. LLS

[HammerMTB]

I've begun the same experiment- in reverse.
I usually cast of WW- in fact, pretty much solely so, except for a little pure Pb when I make BP boolits.
I picked up some tin- apparently I need to shop it better, I paid $22 a pound for 97% pure.
Made up a WW + 2% mix, and cast some.
WOW! They are much nicer! Better filled out, less voids in the base, more consistent in general, and a tad bigger in size, which in this mold's case is a good thing.
I am right in the middle of weighing 50 or so and making a scatter array, so I can see where the weights come in. My early look makes me think the 2 cavity Lee mold throws 2 different weight boolits, as I have 2 points with a considerable numerical advantage over the rest of the array.
I may have found 1 or 2 with internal voids, too, and will need to think of how I can "open them up" without destroying the evidence inside.

[Glen]

I'm with you Dale, I prefer to add a little tin for the better casting qualities of the alloy. Now something that worth remembering is that WW alloy varies from place to place, and that variation might have something to do with why some folks like WW "as is" and some folks prefer to "doctor them up".

[303Guy]

The nature of the mold itself may have something to do with it. Some molds may be more forgiving.

[James C. Snodgrass]

If you get the lead free solder it may cost more . But like you said it is very little money for a big gain IMHO the time factor of not beating on molds and a lot less rejects is worth it to me . James:lovebooli

[JeffinNZ]

I have been adding about 2% tin based babbit to my WW for some time. Other than the better flow the next best advantage is the tin content limits my top end heat treating to around 23 BHN which is plenty hard enough for me. This is enough for my .303 British loads to 2400fps on H4350 and 2600fps in my .223 over W748.

[tackstrp]

James Snodgrass made a comment about beating on molds. I cast a couple hundred Lyman 429 mold four cavity today. 100 dergree heat. was not fun beating on the sprue with a wood mallet. I always get nice bullests out of this mold but my left arm and hand Is getting to weak. Was difficult. I Cast about double that number in a Lee six cavity 38 tumble lube with must less fatigue . I dont like the tunble lube cast bullets but I wanted to see if my casting technique had improved with a full five gallon water bucket. IT did. I ran some thru my lyman 450 358 die and got a decent fill in the small micro bands which, I prefer over the Lee Alox swill and dry and etc. If I get bored I will shoot some.

I put Hornday gas checks on a bunch of Lee 358 swc. They came out rather nice for my first attempt in 15 years or more. I really like the sprue cutter on the lee six cavity molds. So much nicer than the Lyman and RCBS hit the sprue with a mallet.


OH nice looking bostor terrier. I had one, meanest dog I ever knew. called him a Boston Terrorist.. He is gone now after 15 years.
One final coment. I keep looking for the Mess on the floor, with a Lyman Sizer. Can't find. I suspect people are buying sizers with heaters and dont realise that room temp is fine. Oh well. In alaska I use a hair dryer. worked just fine.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Dale,
Your experiment mirrors my experiences, though I went about it in the other direction, as HammerMTB mentioned: I always used to run straight WW, but have recently been adding 1 to 3% tin.

I used to do the pocket calculator thing, as you mentioned too, but I've found myself having more time to cast and less time for math to follow a simple formula. Once you work it out for yourself and your casting pot, you'll not have to mess with the calculator again.

For example, I have a 90-lb Magma bottom-pour pot, and I make up my alloy in 76-lb batches. When I get down to an inch or so alloy left in the bottom of the pot, I put in a fresh 76-lb batch of ingots and wait for it to melt. The 76-lb batch is made thusly: 25 lbs of old WWs from the 70s that my dad collected [they have higher tin and antimony content], 50 lbs of modern-day WWs that I've collected, and 1 lb of pure tin bar. This gives me a great alloy that I run all the way to 1200fps [99% of my loading]. The 76-lb batch will not over-flow the pot, if there's only an inch or two of liquid alloy left in the bottom from the previous melt.

You could adjust the size for whatever size pot you use and the raw materials you have/desire to use to get the alloy outcome you want.

[Dale53]

MMA10mm;
Actually, that is what I do (add a certain amount of tin to my normal 21 lbs of WW's). However, when you are trying to help newbies it is more helpful to give them explicit instructions (my wife is a master cook and she uses experience to judge how much seasoning to add - it would not be helpful to others if she stated "a pinch of this and a handful of that" - recipes are MUCH more helpful to others, in my experience).

In my case, 21 lbs of ww's calls for 6½ oz of tin (that's a pot full of metal in my RCBS 22 lb pot).

However, I DO find the calculator handy when adding hard metal (lead/antimony 92/8) to ww's for a particular blend. Of course, most times I just assume WW's are 4% Antimony, so equal amounts of WW's and Hard Metal give me what I want for magnum loads.

I also have a few hundred pounds of Linotype and again the calculator lets me hit the right mix going in without lots of experimenting.

YMMV
Dale53

[Dale53]

Snodgrass;
After my moulds are up to heat, I don't "beat" on them. I wear a pair of welders gloves and just twist the sprue off. It works fine, even with a six cavity iron H&G mould. Of course, I LIKE the Lee and Lee style six cavity moulds, also. At any rate, twisting them off gives me a better bullet base and is much easier on the mould.

Dale53

[Dale53]

Rotometals has tin ingots for $11.00 per lb which is NOT all that bad. However, if you look around, you can find it lower:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?L2=Lead&operator=prodIndexRefinementSearch&originalValue=solder&L1=Solder%2C

Scroll down the page. It goes from $27.00+ all the way down to under $3.00 per lb for 63% tin solder - that is CHEAP. Now, just order all you can afford (or that they have) and forget worrying about the cost:mrgreen:

This is NOT an everyday price, but I put some friends onto Grainger's sale prices on solder some weeks ago and they stocked up at a decent price (somewhere around $6.00 per lb, as I remember). Don't wait around - this won't last long.

Just remember when using solder that contains less than 100% tin, you only calculate the tin content (the lead content will be negligible against the much greater weight of your ww's - very small percentage so will not have any serious effect on the alloy).

Dale53

[Matt_G]

Have you tried just 1% tin Dale?
Sometimes I find that works just as well as 2% with some of my moulds.
I always just add 1% then fill the mould a few times. If the boolits aren't filling/dropping the way I want, I add another half a percent.
Usually 1.5% max does the trick. Obviously you can always add more but you can't take it out once it's in!
Just a thought that might make your tin last longer.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Forgot to also mention above - I found that when casting with straight WWs, a little extra heat goes a long way towards making fill-out better - almost to the equivalent of the tin being in there - but still not as shiney, like a new coin. :mrgreen:

[snaggdit]

OK, got a lot of feedback the last time I spoke up on this topic. I have cast a lot of straight WW and had decent results. I typically add some solder I got from another member who said it was 60/40 (now that I have it). It is very fine(thin) solder and I just make a multi strand about the thickness of a finger about 6" long and swirl it in a full 20lb pot until about 4" melts in. This is about 4oz(guessing). Not 2% I don't think, guess I never took the time to do the math. It does make better boolits. I agree with Matt_G. Try 1% and add more if you think you need to. Everyone should try without, too, just so you have a reference point.

[Bret4207]

I would not presume to second guess Uncle Dale, I respect him too much. So I'll just ask- Don't you think the WW's make the difference? The newer WW are supposed to have less tin, antimony and trace elements than the older stuff. Most of mine is a good 30 years old, so maybe that's part of the difference. I run my mould a little hotter than some folks too and find my lightly frosted boolits exhibit good fillout and shoot good.

I won't argue that a bit more tin might make them fall from the mould a bit easier, but that could be for a variety of reasons. A bit of "Leementing" on most any mould will help.