Paul Harvey

[felix]

Pat, yesterday heard on his program that a guy blew off his hand by banging a cartridge on a table, trying to kill a fly or something. This is the second time I've heard or read about vibration setting off a cartridge. Any powder without proper deterrent, or deterrent worn off (physically, or chemically by heat differentials, like cold one day, hot another) is entirely suspect. Treat all powders that do not look like they are coated black, especially military surplus, as something to watch carefully. ... felix

[TC66]

Felix

The story here is it was not just any cartridge. It was a 40 MM round that he found while hunting and thought it was a dummy round and had had it on his desk for many years. He was using it to kill a fly and when he hit the desk with it it went off.

Full article posted below.

Paperweight Explodes, Severs Teacher's Hand
Tuesday, April 04, 2006

VENTURA, Calif. — A teacher who kept a 40 mm shell on his desk as a paperweight blew off part of his hand when he apparently used the object to try to squash a bug, authorities say.

The 5-inch-long shell exploded Monday while Robert Colla was teaching 20 to 25 students at an adult education class.

Part of Colla's right hand was severed and he suffered severe burns and minor shrapnel wounds to his forearms and torso, fire Capt. Tom Weinell said. No one else was injured. He was reported in stable condition at a hospital.

The teacher slammed the shell down in an attempt to kill something that was buzzing or crawling across the desk, said Fire Marshal Glen Albright.

Colla found the 40 mm round while hunting years ago and "obviously he didn't think the round was live," said Dennis Huston, who teaches computer design alongside Colla.

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I was reading an FBI story about one of the bomber's they were chasing or caught. I would think caught since the way he made the pipebombs was so well described, he had to have told them. Anyways he'd put a cap on one end of his pipe and the powder he used was Red Dot. He put some in the pipe and pound it solid. He did this till he had the pipe filled. The FBI said it would then be one solid cylinder of Red Dot in the pipe. Then the guy drilled a hole in it for the fuse the used, which I don't care to describe here. What's got me wondering is here is a nut pounding a powder into a solid mass, drilling a hole in it and it doesn't go off. He apparently made a few of them too. It's just hard to imagine vibration setting modern powder off. You would think to that with his pounding the powder that hard and into a solid mass, that the deterant sure as hell came off it.

Joe

[omgb]

40mm cannon shells have an explosive projectile. I suspect that the thing that went off was the projectile, not the cased propellant. In the story, he says that he found it while hunting as a boy almost 30 years ago. While it may have been a complete round I would tend to think based on the circumstances that it was only the projectile.

[felix]

Joe, if that powder was new, no problem. ... felix

[slughammer]

The 5-inch-long shell exploded

If its 40mm (1.57") diameter; is the projectile portion 5", or the loaded round?

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

It's the projectile alone and yes, they are explosive. I loaded many a one back when I was a GI Joe. He musta waved it around and whacked it down with enough force to set it off.

Dave

[omgb]

I agree with Dave on this. I too have seen and fired 40 mm rounds and as a result, seriously doubt that the cased round would actually explode with sufficient force to remove a hand and blow a hole in the ceiling. Once the projectile left the case pressure would be zero. However, the explosive force of the warhead is significant. I believe he's pretty lucky not to have been killed outright.

I thought of this too. If he were a hunter, wouldn't he have recognized a live round by the intact primer? However, an unexploded projectile might be found on the ground having spent itself without hitting a target. This would not necessarily be easily recognized as being other than inert. Slam that puppy on a table top and you've got big trouble most ricky-tick.

[StarMetal]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m433.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m583.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m918.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m385.JPG
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/mk285-image21.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/m430a1.JPG
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/40-can-hvcc.jpg

Joe

[trooperdan]

The 40mm grenade launcher uses a high-low pressure system. The propellant charge is very small BUT it is contained in a heavy enclosure in the center of the base. This enclosure has vents that blow out when the pressure inside the enclosure is 3000 PSI. This pressure rapidly drops when the round is fired in the launcher and the pressure in the barrel is fairly low when the projo exits the AO.

I suspect he had a practise round, inert projo but live powder/propellant combination. He smacked the base on the primer hard enough to light it off. When the 3,000 PSI hit the unsupported case, it would rupture rather violently, hence removing part of the offending hand wrapped around said cartridge!

Edited to add:
The complete practise round would be about 5 inches; the projo isn't but about half that in length. Joe's posts show what I was rather ineloquently trying to explain!

[StarMetal]

Yeah..there's no doubt if it was just a projectile and a high explosive one at that, that he would be history.

Joe

[omgb]

I honestly hadn't thought of a 40 mm grenade. My take was that it was a 40mm canon round..hence the 5" projectile. 40mm grenade sounds more reasonable. I've seen a few of those fired as well from thumpers mounted under M16s.

[JohnH]

Somedays I'm kinda slow, but just where exactly is this fella hunting that he finds a LIVE 40 MM warhead laying around???? Since this story has the backing of having been reported by law enforcement of somekind, I guess we have to lend it more than a bit of credence. Apparently it was live enough to blow his hand off. But it still begs the question, just where did he come across this thing?

[trooperdan]

I'm not familar with the geography of the great state of California; is Ventura anywhere near a military base? I geuss I forget how it is in communities that aren't near a military installation. Around here, right outside Ft. Bragg NC, finding a practice round (likely what this was) would not be at all unusual. Heck, I've seen them sold, brand new at guns shows here.

It has been a while since there was a major stash of Claymore mines found though.. not like the old days! :) And a few years ago, the 4th of July on base was like a fire in an ammo dump, what with pen flares, pop flares and grenade simulators going off everywhere!

Grenade simulators are fun; a fuse lit, cardboard body device about an inch and a half in diameter and 4 inches long, filled with about 2-3 ounces of photoflash comp. When that puppy goes off, it will blow a circle of bare earth about three feet in diameter and make a flash you can see 20 miles at night.. oh yeah, there is a big loud noise and a help of concussion as well. Ask me about the time when I lead a squad into an "ambush" on Bragg one night.. I walked directly into the muzzle of a M60 MG; when he opened up (blanks of course!) I was about 6 feet in front of him and no one had to tell me to lay down! Then someone threw a simulator that went off about 10 feet from my head! I miss those days! :)

[StarMetal]

TrooperDan,

Some fellow I worked with gave me one of those simulators. I took it out in the wood alongside a cliff. I found a big flat rock leaning against the cliff that was about 4 foot long and 3 foot wide and about 10 thick. I wedged the simulator between it and the cliff and ran a very long lenght of wire to the fuse string. Set it...boy I'm glad I was a good distance away. Made alot of smoke and are really loud blast. Oh yeah...it blew the rock off and busted it up some.

Joe

[omgb]

There are several military bases near Ventura including a couple of former naval gunnary ranges and two Air Force bases (one closed). Maybe it was a 40 mm cannon round after all?

[Trailblazer]

I know Bob. First met him in 1983. He was still in high school at the time. He and his father used to hunt the same ridge that I did in the Los Padres National Forest. We both started hunting different areas and I didn't see him for a few years. I moved to Ventura and ran into him at the gun club a few years ago and see him occasionally at the range. He's a good man. Sad thing to have happen.

There are military bases all over California. As stated, we have Point Mugu Naval base still here. Hunting is allowed on Fort Hunter-Ligget up north and it seems like Bob has talked about hunting there. Big chunks of the desert are military reservations. Hard to say where he might have found it.

[BruceB]

My first 'take' on this sad tale was that he'd found a fired 40mm PROJECTILE from an anti-aircraft gun (usally a Bofors), and kept it on his desk.

This first impression was reinforced by a photo in some news item about the blast, showing a person holding the clip for a 40mm Bofors, fully loaded with four rounds.

[FISH4BUGS]

First, a teacher with ammunition laying around; second it is in the People's Republic of California; third, it was live; fourth; it was in a classroom; and on and on.
There are enough disqualifying facts here to make me wonder why this was allowed in the school in the first place, why he was so careless as to play with a live round, and on and on.
"Stupid is as stupid does"
Forrest Gump

[Trailblazer]

Fish,

It looks like most people here realize that the difference between "smart" and "stupid" is often more a matter of chance than anything we might do. However, there is a "bash Bob" thread over on leverguns.com if you would like to share your thoughts with like minded people. I happen to know Bob and he isn't "stupid". It seems he was ignorant of the consequences of using a 40 mm cannon projectile as a fly swatter but that doesn't make him "stupid"! If ignorance makes people "stupid" we are all pretty stupid because none of us was blessed with perfect knowledge.

[carpetman]

Maybe the bug was a cross between a fire ant and a pinworm making a firing pin.

[gregg]

Marc
Levergunner 2.0



USA
320 Posts
Posted - 04/06/2006 : 6:45:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not that it makes a big difference but Bob teaches a CAD/CAM course in ADULT EDUCATION. Not kids!

Anyway I am sure Bob now knows that using 40MM cannon rounds for a fly swatter is not a good idea. Bob found the thing when he was a kid. He has had it for 25 or 30 years. It kinda has a track record of not going off!

I am reminded on a daily basis by various aches and pains and misshapen bones of some of the "stupid" stuff I have done. More times than I care to remember I have had some close call that let me know whatever I was doing wasn't a good idea.

I don't know yet what happened to his hand or which hand it is. I have heard several different reports.

Always interesting to be in the presence of perfect people who know everything!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Marc on 04/06/2006 7:05:25 PM

[Blacktail 8541]

Yes it is a bad judgement call on Bobs' part, ignorant is the right term for what he did. Expended military munitions [duds] tend to deteriorate with age and get more and more sensitive to shakes and jolts. So it is a lot easier to set them off. Just the opisit of what most people think; that the older they are, the safer they are.

[omgb]

I'm not too keen on being hard on this poor guy. If he'd just picked it up I could see reason to be critical however, to have had it for years and without mishap and then for this to happen, well, this is just one of those unfortunate things that happens. I have inert military stuff around my place too. I believe it to be demilled because I bought it from dealers who sold it as demilled. However, baring an examination by a munitions expert, I really can't be 100% sure now can I? If I had found a "spent" round as a kid and handled it for years without incident, most likely I would consider it safe too. Not because I'm stupid but because familiarity tends to decrease watchfulness. Mistakes are made daily. Some, unfortunately carry bigger costs than others. I for one, am glad this guy is still alive and that no students were injured. I don't know him but based on reports from those who do, he's no dummy, just an average guy who made a very common error. He's a hunter, a shooter, a teacher and therefore, one of us. There are enough 'antis" out there who will use this to promote their agenda that I don't need to add to their "juice". Just my $.02. FWIW, this does cause me to reconsider a couple of my "trophies".

[fatnhappy]

Marc
Levergunner 2.0



USA
320 Posts
Posted - 04/06/2006 : 6:45:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not that it makes a big difference but Bob teaches a CAD/CAM course in ADULT EDUCATION. Not kids!

Anyway I am sure Bob now knows that using 40MM cannon rounds for a fly swatter is not a good idea. Bob found the thing when he was a kid. He has had it for 25 or 30 years. It kinda has a track record of not going off!

I am reminded on a daily basis by various aches and pains and misshapen bones of some of the "stupid" stuff I have done. More times than I care to remember I have had some close call that let me know whatever I was doing wasn't a good idea.

I don't know yet what happened to his hand or which hand it is. I have heard several different reports.

Always interesting to be in the presence of perfect people who know everything!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Marc on 04/06/2006 7:05:25 PM



Back when I was a young private during the Reagan era we were routinely cautioned not to pick up unexploded ordinance in the Mojave. Most of it was WWII vintage.
Mind you most of the guys with the caveats were old timers, like top who was all of 35.

The older I get the smarter he seems.

[omgb]

1271Here's a phot of his desk after the explosion.

[carpetman]

I almost had it right,I left out part of the equation. The bug was a cross of a fire ant,ring worm and pin worm making it a fire ring pin. And now you know-------the rest of the story C a r p e t m a n goooood daaay.

[FISH4BUGS]

I suppose I should have been less hard on the teacher, although I still think it is a fair statement. By way of comparison, I still carry a .22 bullet in my leg just above the ankle because of my own "stupidty". I shot myself with an unloaded 22! I KNEW it was unloaded! I didn't have to look. Was that STUPID? Yes.....it was also careless.......and inattentive.
Perhaps a better term WOULD have been IGNORANT. I am ignorant of plasma physics. I could educate myself about the subject should I choose. The teacher was IGNORANT of safe handling of live ordinance.
I guess we are ALL stupid at one time or another. It is sad this one had a high price to pay.
But in this day and age of political correctness, and particularly in California, I am astounded the school would allow this item to be there. I have seen kids expelled for having a butter knife and fork in their lunch box to eat their lunch with. Zero tolerance in the schools for weapons......of all kinds.
Again, perhaps my choice of words was not exactly perfect......illustrative, yes, but perhaps not the right choice.
I hope Bob will be OK............

[buck1]

I used to find 50BMG ammo all the time wile deer hunting. There was a air base near here during WWII.
I fought the urge to pick any up , knowing that the live rounds with strange paint rings on the unknown to me bullet had been sitting there in the outdoors for 40 some odd years after being droped by a plane.
They may be that one shell needing the slightest bump to finish some ignition process in the primer,bullet,or what ever.
.....Buck

[cherok9878]

Was playing Army in the 70's at Fort Benning, Ga. Sent young PFC to deliver a load of parts. He went joy riding with the M151A2 "jeep", there was a M416 trailer attached. When he came back to the compound there was a bit of excitement with a couple of the other troops. I went to investigate and the PFC had a M105 Howitzer Projectile in the trailer, picked up from a firing range. Fuse still in tact and the base of the projectile was flush, explosive charge was still there. To make a long story short, EOD was amazed the young man was still alive. The Captain rewarded him with an Article 15 with reduction in grade for reckless endangerment. Some times people just do not think........larry