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nvbirdman
08-21-2009, 12:51 AM
Today I stopped into a large sporting goods store and they had some of the powder that I use for sale, but they also had a sign posted limiting each customer to only two pounds. The salesman went into the back room and when he came out he told me there was still one pound left if I wanted that too.
Do I buy three pounds so I will have a good supply, or do I buy two pounds and leave a pound for the next reloader who is having trouble finding powder?

RNyogi
08-21-2009, 01:12 AM
If you really need it, buy two and leave one. If you're just adding to your stock, buy one and leave two.
just my $.02

sundog
08-21-2009, 08:08 AM
Since it was offered --- if you use a lot of it regularly and it is all the same lot number, snag all of it. There will be more. That is not hording. Buying a car load of it when it being delivered to the store is hording. If you shoot regularly and reload, you need to have a working supply on hand.

The bright side in this 'shelf cleaning' exercise is that we will have a lot of fresh components in the pipe line, not some shelf queen with a half inch of dust on a rusty top.

bedwards
08-21-2009, 08:25 AM
I did the same thing on some SR primers, had more than I need ordered, so I left 1/2 for the next guy. I didn't even get out of the store and they were sold to someone else. I also paid more per pak because they broke 1000. So.... that's a hard one. BTW, they are still out of primers.


be

Trey45
08-21-2009, 09:20 AM
Buy what you need, not what you want. The next guy just might be completely out of powder.

462
08-21-2009, 10:25 AM
I think that if Trey's advise had been followed for the last year, primer and powder shortages would not have become an out-of-stock issue. The selfish reloaders, and the greedy opportunists created a situation that should have seen a spike in prices as demand increased, but not one in which product was completely non-existent.

Now that some products are becoming a bit more available, prices have naturally increased. The manufacturer's cost haven't increased, or at least not significantly, but, with the still abnormally high demand, retail pricing has risen and will stay there till such time as supply catches up.

Think back to this last Winter and Spring's many threads about the non-availability of primers and powders. Given the ability to go back in time, how many of us would buy all we could, and deny supplies to our fellow reloaders, versus how many would buy only what we needed and leave the rest for others? We are willing to help others with advise, but are we less so when it comes to leaving not-needed supplies on the shelf? Can we equate stockpiling reloading components to that of maintaining an emergency supply of food and water?




We all learned a lesson, this time round, but it will be forgotten come the next time.

WILCO
08-21-2009, 10:33 AM
Buy what you need, not what you want. The next guy just might be completely out of powder.


Indeed.

Bad Water Bill
08-21-2009, 11:41 AM
The shortage has shown me a few dealers to NOT do business with from now on. At the last gun show one dealer had a sign reading " THIS AIN'T 1935 GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR A-- AND PAY THE F------ PRICE OR GET OUT OF MY FACE " His price on 22LR was double what Cabelas sold them to me the same day. This type of gouging person will pay for his greed for many years to come. We should also remember the people that tried to hold the prices as low as possible and stop in to say thank you and spend a few $ there

S.R.Custom
08-21-2009, 12:00 PM
If it's available, do you normally buy 3 lbs at a time, particularly if it's all the same lot number? I do.

oldhickory
08-21-2009, 12:30 PM
I would buy only what I needed, IF I really needed it. Besides, I usually only buy in 8lb. jugs and Varget is the only powder I'm really short on right now.

anachronism
08-21-2009, 06:09 PM
Seriously, Do you expect that if the roles were reversed, the other guy would do the same for you? I would like to think so, but experience tells me that this is a good way to end up with nothing, while the next guy trys to scalp you for it when things get tight. If you need it, can afford it, and have access to it, buy it.

Let the next guy compromise.

monadnock#5
08-21-2009, 07:53 PM
Rush Limbaugh has commented on more than one occasion that amongst the "tax the rich and feed the poor" crowd, that the cut off line between rich and poor starts at $1.00 more than what they are making. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Don't worry about what we think. It's your conscience. Do what you think is right.

shunka
08-21-2009, 08:13 PM
There is the golden rule:
-- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
There is the greed rule:
-- "Do it others before they do it to you"
Then there's the Karma Rule
-- " Be done by as ye do"

your life, your call. what goes around comes around.
yhs
shunka

Recluse
08-21-2009, 08:24 PM
I think that if Trey's advise had been followed for the last year, primer and powder shortages would not have become an out-of-stock issue. The selfish reloaders, and the greedy opportunists created a situation that should have seen a spike in prices as demand increased, but not one in which product was completely non-existent.

Think back to this last Winter and Spring's many threads about the non-availability of primers and powders. Given the ability to go back in time, how many of us would buy all we could, and deny supplies to our fellow reloaders, versus how many would buy only what we needed and leave the rest for others?

Please define "selfish reloaders."

I'm one who reloads a LOT and shoots a LOT. Should I curtail my activities simply because I choose to be prepared while others choose to rely on the good graces/handouts of those who are prepared?

Back in '93, you're damn right I "bought all I could." Lot of others did too. Not one single problem with the supply side until those who chose NOT to be prepared suddenly found their supplies running low.

Ant and the grasshopper?

I started buying reloading supplies when they were plentiful and even a lot of shooters thought no way in hell could Hillary or Hussein Obama get elected. Got more than one smirk from fellow shooters over my stockpiling.

Guess what? I'm shooting and they're not.

I don't know of too many prepared shooters who live their lives in a mental state of preparedness who aren't shooting right now due to lack of ammo/supplies. They may not be loading and shooting as much, but they're still shooting.

At the counter in the example above, if it were a powder I use a lot of and I was out or near to it, I would've bought the third one if he offered it. If he (retailer) wasn't expecting more in and soon, I doubt he would've offered to sell his last pound of that particular powder.

:coffee:

Rockydog
08-21-2009, 10:11 PM
I bought over 2000 primers from a local hardware store last year. I shot most of them. A few weeks ago I came in and there was an article from a local paper about "hoarders" of primers and ammo. The article stated that these hoarders were interrupting the activities of the "True Sportsmen" The employee behind the counter had brought it to work and posted it there. I inquired as to what constituted a hoarder. His reply was anybody that purchased more than a thousand primers at a time. He didn't have any but said he wouldn't sell that many to me even if he did have them. This really ticked me off. I searched out the owner and pointed out to him that I'd bought a CF rifle, A couple of thousand primers, 1000 .223 bullets, 2 cases of 16 gauge shells etc. from him last year in addition to a new freezer and all of my hardware needs. I asked if they had primers in stock and I wanted 1000 if they'd sell them to me. He wondered why I asked. I told him about the article and the employees attitude. His reply was "I don't make any money if what you want is here and you leave with it still sitting on the shelf. If it's on the shelf you can buy all of whatever it is I've got." He then strode off in the direction of the gun dept. Next time I was in the article was gone and the employee gave me the cold shoulder. I can't wait until he gets some primers in. RD

462
08-22-2009, 12:08 AM
Recluse,

A selfish reloader is one who buys more than what his particular needs may happen to be. If you shoot more than I do, than you require more in the way of supplies, fair enough...buy what you need. If you think you have a need for that third pound of powder, by all means buy it. However, if all you'll need is one pound, leave some for the next guy in line.

I wasn't reloading in '93, so I'm not aware of how critical supplies became. Was the situation as bad as this time? Were primers not to be had at all, or just not in the normal quantities? Were people stocking up with what they thought they'd need for the foreseeable future, or were they buying anything and everything, whether they needed it or not?

nvbirdman
08-22-2009, 12:49 AM
I am the original poster. I should have mentioned that two pounds would last me a year.
There were some very interesting replies, ranging from compassion for my fellow reloaders -to- accept the offer of the third pound because the next guy would do it anyway and the third guy would still be out of luck.
If any of you came in after me looking for powder, at least I know you were able to get one pound to load and shoot.

Recluse
08-22-2009, 03:20 AM
I wasn't reloading in '93, so I'm not aware of how critical supplies became. Was the situation as bad as this time? Were primers not to be had at all, or just not in the normal quantities? Were people stocking up with what they thought they'd need for the foreseeable future, or were they buying anything and everything, whether they needed it or not?

In 1991, we were in the Gulf. There was a significant buildup leading to the kickoff which resulted in primers becoming very slow to get. Then in 1992, Klinton was elected and in 1993, early, he appointed the ugliest woman in the world and a known man-hater as Attorney General.

Only thing Janet Reno hated more then men were men who liked and owned guns. Sarah Brady was orgasmic.

The biggest difference I see today versus '93 is back then, the AWB and Brady Bill and other nonsense had not passed yet--so a lot of gun owners that didn't grow up in the 60's (GCA of 1968) had no idea what a bunch of neophyte fascists could do in terms of gun-control.

Those of us who did grow up in the 60's remembered all too well. We stocked up. big time.

Other difference is that in '93, I didn't see all that many new reloaders come into the fold. Don't know about boolit casters as I wasn't casting back then.

This go-around, there are those of us who saw '68 and '93 and simply were not going to take any chances. So that is one facet.

Another is the ongoing endless mess in the Middle East. That's sucking up LOTS of ammo--and component manufactering always goes to making loaded rounds first, reloaders second.

Final facet is that our world got FLOODED with brand new reloaders. And I'll be honest--a lot of them (not necessarily on this forum) have pissed off a lot of older reloaders over this "Why did you have to order 5K of WSP? You're the reason I can't get any" whining.

I've ordered primers 5K at a time for over 30 years. And I ain't stopping just because new reloaders only want to load a few boxes here and there "until the ammo shortage goes away." To hell with that. Most older reloaders I know order 5K at a time. Same thing about order multiple pounds of powder at a time. We've been doing this for years.

When the shortage is over, we'll still be ordering 5K per size (primers) at a time and kegs of powder. Just the way it is. It isn't selfish because we shoot the stuff. We've also taught a helluva lot of new people how to reload--and in doing so, I can't even begin to count the thousands of primers and pounds of powder, buckets of brass, etc, I've given away helping new handloaders get started.

But scumbags who buy in mass quantity every place they can, seven days a week just to peddle the primers on Gunbroker or "For Sale" forums on the internet can kiss my butt.

That's quite a bit different from someone who may use a lot of IMR4350 and has a chance to buy thee pounds instead of two--and taking the sales clerk up on his offer.

That's not being selfish. That's being smart.

:coffee:

Trey45
08-22-2009, 09:37 AM
The guys who buy primers simply to resell them at a jacked up price are the same one's that will take advantage of any dire situation, be it reloading shortages, famine, drought, flood, whatever. Wolves will always be wolves. Another post here said this primer and powder shortage showed him who not to do business with. I have made the same decisions, the only good I see in this is that it showed me who can be trusted, and who cannot. There's a little gun shop 2 towns over that will NEVER get my business again because of this, and the owner knows it too. On the other hand, there's another shop a bit farther away that has been a straight dealer through thick and thin, over the course of many years I've spent thousands of dollars there, and have always been treated square. I'll drive the extra 35 minutes for a fair deal from a fair dealer.

Recluse
08-22-2009, 10:01 AM
The guys who buy primers simply to resell them at a jacked up price are the same one's that will take advantage of any dire situation, be it reloading shortages, famine, drought, flood, whatever. Wolves will always be wolves. Another post here said this primer and powder shortage showed him who not to do business with. I have made the same decisions, the only good I see in this is that it showed me who can be trusted, and who cannot. There's a little gun shop 2 towns over that will NEVER get my business again because of this, and the owner knows it too. On the other hand, there's another shop a bit farther away that has been a straight dealer through thick and thin, over the course of many years I've spent thousands of dollars there, and have always been treated square. I'll drive the extra 35 minutes for a fair deal from a fair dealer.

Absolutely Trey!

Rather than "wolves," I would refer to the unscrupulous among us as either jackals or weasels. Wolves are social animals, very organized with clear rules of behavior and those rules center on keeping the entire pack safe and fed. Jackals know no such rules and are typically loners.

There is a common misperception that if someone is a gun owner or a gunshop owner or a shooter or hunter, then "they must be all right and a good person."

Unfortunatelyy, this could not be more wrong.

Some of the biggest pieces of human feces I have ever come across in my my life were poachers. But by-golly they were shooters, gun-owners, and worse yet, often times members of the NRA, GOA, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, etc--all to try and give legitimacy to their sorry-butted ways.

At gunshows, I remember when the crooked dealer would be be maybe one table out of the two hundred tables that were set up. Today, I'll venture that the number is probably more like ten tables out of two hundred. Still a small number, but nonetheless, crooks to be avoided.

I hear ya 5x5 Trey. The gun-dealers/shops who treat me well have my business, loyalty, respect and recommendation. Like you, I drive a long ways to do business with a shop that has treated me--and many others--right for years. I pass by two places that are nothing more than predators preying on new, inexperienced shooters/gun-owners who don't know any better.

:coffee:

OeldeWolf
08-22-2009, 03:52 PM
Thank you for the good word on us Wolves, Recluse. You are exactly right.

Those I know, are not only sociable, and have rules they live by, but are protective of those around them.

On the other hand, neither I nor others I know have anything but distaste and contempt for weasels and jackals.

I had a couple of opportunities to buy out all of one powder or another, but stuck with what I could use, or only 1 over. But in time I have built up a year's supply of my favorites. But without sucking the pipeline dry at any time. I WANT other shooters to have powder, reduces the duty load on me, and lets them take care of themselves and theirs. Same with primers.

OeldeWolf

Trey45
08-22-2009, 03:57 PM
I do apologise to any wolves I may have insulted. I was thinking of the old "wolves at the door" anecdote at the time. You are correct, jackals is the more appropriate term. Regardless, I think my point came across loud and clear, jackals will be jackals regardless of the circumstances. Ever heard the tale of the frog and the scorpion?

anachronism
08-22-2009, 05:40 PM
Back when I had my large store of primers, prior to the boating accident, I didn't even try to buy more primers, leaving them for those in need. It amused me to see the unprepared ones scramble for components while is sat in the shade, sipping iced tea. If we didn't have the auction sites, we would have a thriving black market in the back alleyways. My position remains unchanged, if I can afford them, can find them, and need them, I'm going to buy them. The next guy has his own situation to deal with, and that is his problem, just as my situation is my problem.

462
08-22-2009, 05:45 PM
Recluse,

The way I read you, I don't think that you are a selfish reloader. I think, too, that you will agree that they do exist, though, and that they recently took advantage of a lot of honest and thoughtful reloaders.

I fear two things in life -- snakes and Janet Reno.

kywoodwrkr
08-23-2009, 06:36 PM
How does this all settle with just plain planning ahead?
It became apparent that primers were going up, I guess it was about three years ago when the price of lead and brass started going up.
I contacted another member here on the board and told him what my thoughts were about upcoming price increases.
Long story short, he and I decide to order a rather large supply of primers before they went up-as it turned out what I considered a considerable amount.
So now, am I one of those loathsome hoarders, or am I an ant, planning ahead for the winter?
If I wander into a store and I'm in the market for and have the money for whatever powder the store has at a fair price, I'll buy whatever I can afford.

Trey45
08-24-2009, 09:51 AM
Just my opinion, but planning ahead and buying when there was ample supply does not constitute hoarding. My idea of hoarding would be already having supplies to hold you over, and still going out and buying all you can lay your hands on. An example would be, let's say someone has 50,000 primers at their house and they go browsing around their local gunshop who just got in a small shipment of primers and that person buys them all. That's hoarding in my book. My definition might be different than yours.