What size to size my .44s?

[Patrick L]

Using a plug gauge set, I recently checked the cylinder throats of my S&W M24-3 .44 Spl. I knew these were on the large size, but I wanted a measurement. Three of the holes will accept the .433 pin, all will accept the.432 pin. None will take a .434.

So do I want to size .432 or .433? I'm planning on using a Keith type SWC, so the front band will be an issue. I'm thinking .433, unless you think I'll have problems with sticky chambering.

Oh and I realize not all molds will drop that fat. I'l lap or beagle to get the casting I need.

[R.C. Hatter]

While I admit to having limited experience with plug gauges, they are an excellent way
to check chamber diameters. I believe member Felix stated there was .0002" tolerance on the minus (-) gauges which is what mine are, somewhere on this forum. If you used minus gauges, then your .433" gauge is actually .4328" in diameter and your .432" gauge is actually .4318" in diameter. Most likely, .431" or .432" sizing will work as long
as you are using an alloy that will allow obturation to occur. My Model 24-3 has five Chambers at .4328" and one at .4318", and I use .431" sizing with satisfaction. I hope
this helps you out.

[Bob Krack]

Groove size is MUCH more important. Most will work best with .431 or so.

Slug your barrel!

Bob

[HeavyMetal]

If you can find a mold that will drop them at .432 go with that!

As long as they are larger than bore diameter it should work fine. Be glad your Smith is that large I've heard of many with .429 /.428 throats and a .431 bore! That is not a good combo!

[tackstrp]

LEE molds in 44 caliber, most seem to be at .429 per the sales pictch, and they dont need to be sized. I find that hard to believe. I have always sized my Lyman cast bullets to .430 lyman sizer.

I have always read that cast bullets should be .001 over sized or in a .430 . If .430 it the standard, why is LEE pushing the .429 size???. Just does not make sense to me. Getting old and not gracefully I admit. Did I miss something??

Finally question. This business about tumble lube and alox, and being messy to reload, is that ture? I would rather use my old fashion lyman 450 sizer, unless the LEE way really is better.

[runfiverun]

i can't comment on the lee thing being better,or not...
i would measure a bit more, like the inside of a fired case. that'll give you an idea of how big will chamber.
a 435 boolit may be perfect but if you can't get them in the gun they are now rocks to throw.

[243winxb]

.430" I follow Lymans method. It works well in Rugers and S &W's

[Patrick L]

Bob, I hate to disagree, but current thinking is that THROAT diameter is what counts. Hopefully both throat and groove are a close match, but very frequently throats are much larger, so you size to accomodate the throat. Occasionally the throats will be tighter than bore, and THAT spells trouble.

[462]

Patrick,

My 24 and a 24-3 have .432" throats and .430" grooves. I fine-tuned a 429421 to .434", and a sizer to .433", and eliminated all previous leading problems.

A dummy round consisting of an un-sized .434" boolit will not chamber.

As R. C. Hatter said, pin gauges are either plus .002" or minus .002". For an accurate measurement, it's a good idea to know which you're using.

[Patrick L]

I have a minus set. I was under the impression that this means the tolerances were from spot on to .0002 under, meaning my .432 could measure anywhere from .4318 to .4320, but no larger.

Is this correct?

[76 WARLOCK]

I just went through this with a 629. The bore is .429 the throats would accept the .432 pin gauge[minus], so I reamed out my sizer to .432 and cast a bunch. The accuracy was 2" at 25 yds perfect I thought. I then checked the .432 boolitz will not push through the throats. Thats when I figured out the .432 pin guage in about .004 undersized, Now I have to buy another sizer die at .431.

After all that I was very happy with 2" groups, I just think the pressure is probably a little high.

Prior to sizing to .432 the best groups I could get was 6"

[1874Sharps]

A most important thing is that the chamber throats are slightly larger than the groove diameter, otherwise the bullet will enter the forcing cone undersize and will most likely not shoot well. From what you state, that is the case and it seems to me that you will likely get good results with something between 0.430 to 0.431 inches. Of course, some shooters simply let the bore do the sizing with no detrimental effects on accuracy. Experimentation will tell! I think you will likely find that standard 0.430 inch bullets will work out just great.

[tackstrp]

cast some bullets today, including a lee in 44 which measures .429 as specified in advertisment. and the Lyman meaured .430 before sizing.. Surprised me.

Qurestion what would be the result of running a Lee micro groove tumble lube bullet that measures .430 thru a Lyman .430 sizing die for sizing and lubication. i am looking at the Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL430-240-SWC . Hate to buy then find out my bright idea is an OOPs.

[462]

Warlock,

I think your improved accuracy is telling you that the .432" boolit is correct. You do not want a boolit to fall through the throats, and one at .431" would -- some resistance is needed for optimum performance.

I would trust the pin gauge to be only minus .002", not .004". If you have a micrometer that reads to the 4th decimal place, measure it to eliminate any doubt.

[MtGun44]

Micro groove Lee boolits size and lube fine.

As long as the boolit is pretty close to throat diam and throat diam is larger than
the groove diam, you will be OK. More fiddling for best accy, but you won't get bad
leading and horrible accy.

Typically I try throat diam or throat diam +.001 at first. If that is OK, I'm usually there,
but that is for guns with throats LARGER than the groove diam. I had a Ruger BH
convertible .45LC/.45ACP that had way undersized throats. Mild leading, 1-2 fliers per
5 shot group at 25 yds. Reamed throats up to .002 over groove diam, fitted boolits
to this diam - no leading, no fliers. Search on the gunsmithing page for an old article
that I put up on this work, if you care.

Bill

[918v]

So do I want to size .432 or .433? I'm planning on using a Keith type SWC, so the front band will be an issue. I'm thinking .433, unless you think I'll have problems with sticky chambering.

Oh and I realize not all molds will drop that fat. I'l lap or beagle to get the casting I need.

Sizers size .0005" over, in my experience, so your .432" may come out at .4325". A .433" sizer may bee too big.

[Moonman]

My S&W Model 29-5 has cylinder mouth sizes of .433 measured with a machinist telescoping gage. I just received a .251/.500 (.0002 MINUS) pin gage set from Grizzley.(250 Pieces) $75 +11.50 UPS, and they are nice. (ITEM # G9794)

Pin of .433 measures .4328 with Mics, but it is a sliding fit in the M29 cylinder, so the telescoping gage reading with the Mic of .433 is closer. (I'm a retired machinist)

I plan to shoot 44 Special NOT 44 Mag, and use softer alloys for target shooting.

I have NOT Slugged the Barrel.

Should I try to cast .434 and size to .433 or cast .435 and size to .434?

Your Advice/Opinions PLEASE.

[MtGun44]

Moonman,

The desired situation is to just fit the throats or have a slight interference fit to account
for out of round. The issue in some situations is whether the desired diameter boolit
will make a round that will chamber in your gun. If a .433 or .434 will chamber, AND if you
can find a mold that will cast that big, you should try both to see which is best.

Mr. Target will tell the tale, with further input from a close inspection of the throats and
bore for leading. Choose the most accurate with no leading.

And you are accurately measuring the gage pin, assuming it is from a minus set, it is
intended to be .0002" smaller than the marked size, and yours is. Good verification.

Bill

[EDK]

Since I'm casting/loading for a bunch of RUGERS, SMITH & WESSONS, and MARLIN Cowboy rifles, I'm sizing to .432 or .433 if the boolit is "kissed" by the sizing die. A couple of molds only come out at .430/.431, but they're not particular favorites.

The VAQUEROS can vary...last two guns I bought ran .430 and .432 per the pin gauge set. (I bought a set from GRIZZLY this fall.) The larger sized boolits have worked nicely in the tighter guns too. I had screwed up checking hardness and used 15/16 brinnell for Cowboy Action Shooting level..about 900 FPS...and got some minor leading in forcing cones with proven good loads.

You need to see how big a boolit will chamber in your gun. Sometimes the ogive is too big...bought a LBT 300 grain WFN that didn't work at whatever diameter I was sizing at when I got it some years ago....I need to dig it out and apply what I've learned since to make it work.

The MIHEC version of LYMAN 429640 in a CRAEMER hollow point was ordered with a .434 diameter rather than .432.

:redneck::cbpour:

[bobthenailer]

I have 2- 44 mags , one with .432 throats the other with .433 throats i use bullets sized to .433 in both with excellent results . I beagled my mould to cast .433 dia bullets , and bought a .433 sizer die. i dont shoot either gun that much as one is a custom S&W made for bowling pin shooting and a 3 inch stock S&W. all of my other 44 mags past & present shoot best with bullets sized at .430 dia

[Dan Cash]

I am shooting a plain base semi-wadcutter that drops at 250 +- and measures 435 as cast. It will chamber in my one 44 spl and 3 .44 Mag revolvers and gives excellent accuracy as cast. a similar set up might be beneficial to you as the fat bullet centers up well in the magnum chamber when seated in the shorter special case. My bullets are fairly soft at about 10 Brinell and give no leading in the magnum when launched by 18-19 gr. 2400. That is all the steam I care for.

[fredj338]

Groove size is MUCH more important. Most will work best with .431 or so.

Slug your barrel!

Bob

In a rev, they go hand in hand. If your cyl are too small, then matching a larger groove dia is going to cause leading. Too large, not as big a problem, I would size for 0.432" I go with that.

[MtGun44]

Dan - Another shooter "doing the impossible" shooting soft boolits at full magnum velocities
without leading or accuracy problems. SO much for all those old wives tales that you must
shoot 29 BHN boolits to avoid leading and inaccuracy in the magnums.

:bigsmyl2:

But you better watch out for that lead corroding the bore. . . . . . . . ;-)

Bill

[1Shirt]

My 44Mag in both Sup Blackhawk and Marlin as well as in my early 444 Marlin shoot well with 431.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Kraschenbirn]

Kind of a PITA but I (re)size to .431 for my M24. .432s work just fine in both my .44 Vaquero and M94 Marlin but are "snug" in my S&W to the point where I can't reload from a speedloader after firing a few rounds.

Bill

[canyon-ghost]

I take a bullet, drop it in the cylinder and push it out the other side with a pencil. If they are a little tight, not bad. You don't want them stuck in there hard. A couple of taps with a light handle is not a bad fit.

In 44 Special, when you get enough powder in it, you know because it stops blackening the cases. It's really a sweet round. I use 7.4 grains of Unique with light bullets.

Good Luck,
Ron

[375RUGER]

So if I'm interpreting the advise here well, a boolit that is .001-.002" over groove diameter is good if the cylinder is the same if not a tiny bit larger.



Sizers size .0005" over, in my experience, so your .432" may come out at .4325". A .433" sizer may bee too big.
Do you think this is spring back or are sizers erred on the + side so not to give an undersized boolit.

[MtGun44]

The ideal situation is a boolit starting straight into a cyl throat that it fits well enough to
not tip, but drive fwd exactly straight as it leaves the case. Then the boolit should be
a bit larger than the groove diameter and be smoothly fed into a nice, smooth forcing
cone and helt straight in that tight throat until it is straight in the barrel.

Each transition should avoid tipping and loss of control, each being a bit smaller than
the previous one. In my guns .001 larger than the throat or even .002 larger than the
throat, and the throat about .001 larger than groove seems to be just right.

This is the ideal. The closer you can get to this, the better things will work - generally.

No two guns are identical.

Bill

[MakeMineA10mm]

A picture is worth a thousand words...
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/MakeMinea10mm/44_S&W_SPL_Colt~MakeMineA10mm_%234.gif

This, I'm suspicious, is the boolit our OP was asking about a few years ago (my group buy Heavy Keith), and as you can see, there are a couple factors depending on boolit design.

Father Elmer put that wide front driving band out there to get the boolit into the throat upon loading. This is an important distinction, because many designs (and especially factory ammo) keep the shoulder behind that step where the chamber and throat meets. By carefully sizing to get that front drive band into the throat before firing, the boolit is "pre-aligned" with the throat. This can also be troublesome if you have one or more throats tighter than the others, because, when sized to match the big throats, there's interference in the small one. (See why factory loads take the easy way of keeping the front band back of the throat's shoulder?). As casters (and thereby the most expert of handloaders :-P ) we must recognize we have a couple options:

First, we can shoot boolits sized to fit the tight throats and carefully make their hardness/softness match the pressure of the load so that they "slug-up" in the larger throats.

Second, we can buy, borrow, or rent throat finish reamers to make all our throats the same size. (While we're at that, let's first slug the barrel and make sure all the throats end up the same to +.002" of the barrel's bore size...)

[375RUGER]

Thanks guys. those last 2 posts were really great.
MakeMineA10mm, i'm sending you a pm about that 44x265 Keith.

[Grandpas50AE]

Patrick, I have a 24-3 as well as several Smith and Ruger 44 mags. I have been casting the 429244 GC SWC for years using WW + a little lead added back in to reduce hardness. The 44 mags all liked the 429244 GC really well with Javelina lube, running 1200 fps, no leading and deadly accurate. They were always sized with the Lyman sizer die, which puts them out at the .4295 diameter. The 24-3 didn't like that boolit, they would keyhole at 25 yds. I went to the 429215 GC SWC, and those cast out with that same alloy at 235 gr., and sized the same as the others. The 24-3 loves those slightly lighter boolits due to barrel length and twist rate I presume, but they are really accurate at 50 yds.

I never had the cylinders or bores mic'ed on any of those pistols, and I've had plenty of them. It is possible the GC made up for any slight variances. I may slug and mic them one of these days just out of curiosity, but haven't had a compelling reason to do so considering that I'm getting such good results. The 24-3 loves the 235 gr. GC with the soft lube using SR4759, and there is no leading in mine whatsoever. It is, compared to some I have shot, a moderate load, and in that 24-3 the recoil is very mild. I have shot many a 4" baloon at 120 yds with that load, and that is lots of fun..