Please define boolit "slump"

[HammerMTB]

Can you define the term? I know what it sounds like. I want to know how one can tell if/when it occurs. To what extent it affects accuracy. In what kind of boolit shapes it can be expected. In which is it not a factor.

[Nora]

Boolit slump was both discussed and argued about here. This may give you a good start. Both poles on the concept are represented and will also give you some go to people to follow up either sides of the topic.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=59089

Nora

[Bill*]

Boolit Slump: (verb) a mythical creation used to describe an excuse for poor marksmanship :mrgreen:

[Nora]

Boolit Slump: (verb) a mythical creation used to describe an excuse for poor marksmanship :mrgreen:

Are you sure it's a myth? I thought it was for sure one of the laws of physics refereed to as the "mylar theory". A sub category of fluid dynamics. Or maybe it was Mylar who is rumored to have originally headed the project. [smilie=1:

[9.3X62AL]

One of our daughters dated a guy from planet Mylar for a short time. The place does exist. Boolit slump I'm less certain about.

[HammerMTB]

I guess I shoulda known.
There are those who don't know.
There are those who think they know.
Are there any who can legitimately define the term, or just many who can only mock it in hopes it won't spark controversy?
I won't be coy. I have some samples of boolits I shot yesterday. I think there is some definite evidence on them. What that evidence may support would depend on one's definition of "slump"
And we're not talkin' Barak Obama and the economy, or Slick Willy Clinton getting service from a White House intern.

[Firebird]

Bullet "slump" - My definition is the change in shape of a bullet due to the acceleration and pressure forces acting on the bullet.
Does it exist - my opinion is yes. I haven't proven it as I don't have access to big enough snow drifts to catch a bullet - the only way I know of to catch a bullet without deforming the nose. That's the real problem in trying to do experiments to prove bullet slump - does the nose deformation occur due to the pressure and acceleration forces, or does it occur when the bullet hits the bullet trap?
I know Veral Smith can be a hot topic here also, but in his book he published the results of his experiments on Obturation of bullets. A fairly nice B&W photo of what he termed "spool" shaped bullets (they have a raise rim on the bottom, and on the top, with a smaller diameter over most of the bullet length; just like a spool for thread. His "spools" show obvious deformation to fill the bore caused by the pressure forces from the bottom. Low pressure caused the spools to fill the bore only at the bottom of the bullet, as he added more powder to the load (raised the pressure) the obturation deformation rose on the bullet until it reached about two thirds of the way up at the highest pressure load (no pressure gun, so guess at 30-35Kpsi?). The photos show that the bullet deformation isn't perfectly even, even with the top rim helping to center the bullet in the bore these "spools" deformed unevenly. These spool boolits were only 8 BHN, so are soft and are deformed more easily than harder bullets. But they do show that bullets will change shape due to the pressure of the hot gases pushing on them.
To what amount can it affect accuracy? A bullet that isn't perfectly straight and balanced won't fly true - it will be deflected by the it's aerodynamics if it's bent, and by the rotational forces if it becomes unbalanced. The more bent or unbalanced, the worse it is, if only very slightly bent or unbalanced (say as a result of normal casting and sizing issues), there will only be very slight effects.
What boolit shapes are affected? All of them, though the less support the nose has in the bore, the more it can slump or bend to one side; causing more inaccuracy. Louverin designs can only be slightly affected as they have very short nose sections with almost all of the bullet supported by the bore. Bore-rider designs can be heavily affected as most of the bullet isn't supported by the bore, but only by the narrow rifling lands; allowing the bullet more freedom to "slump" or bend to one side.
What to do to prevent bullet slump? Use a design with a shorter nose, use a harder, stronger lead alloy, use a lower pressure load, or a combination of all three.

[mooman76]

Lee used to shoot bullets into his swimming pool to gather info from tests. he actually loaded to the point of the bullet exploding after it left the barrel.

[runfiverun]

firebirds first and last sentence pretty well sums it right up.
you can have setback in areas of the boolit, such as where the nose joins the main groove diameter,the nose sliding to the side, or the base being shoved forward.
could explain why something has been working fine then suddenly no accuracy.
you changed the alloy slightly or didn't add that pound of antimony, or didn't get the mold up to working temp when water dropping.

[HammerMTB]

I got a new mold. It is a Lee TLC 430-265 RF. As you can see below, it has such a large meplat there is not much reason to think there might be "slumping" at least not the nose bending off to the side.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/HammerMTB/DSCN1747.jpg
I didn't realize when I bought the mold that it was a GC design. I have removed GC bases, and may remove this one. I am as yet undecided.
I was concerned that the major diameter of this boolit was too small, and that there were too many lube grooves, and not enough "meat" for the rifling.
I set out to find out if it would strip. Keep in mind that this was the first time I'd even tried the boolit.
I was also curious what it might take to stop this slug. I've seen a lot of tests that use jugs of water. Another favorite caliber of mine is 10MM, and it takes 17-20" of water to stop it. I read about a guy who shot a hole in his pool with a 45-70, so was a bit concerned that I might not be able to stop these bad boys in a reasonable fashion.
So I lined up 3-1 gallon jugs, followed by 2 5 gallon "cubees", plastic jugs used to sell and store cooking oil. This was about 36" of water, and 10 layers of plastic in there.
The results were interesting, to say the least.
The first shot burst the first 1 gallon jug so bad I got a shower from 10 feet away. It penetrated all the water and ended up about 1/2 a boolit length into a rotten log I had propped up for backing. It took me a bit to pry the boolit out, as I didn't want to damage it. I was also in a hurry, as all my water was pouring out the jugs, and I might get another shot off if I hurried.
The 2nd shot was only thru the 2-5 gallon jugs. The others were empty and mostly burst. That shot went thru both jugs and 3" into the rotten log.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/HammerMTB/DSCN1748.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/HammerMTB/DSCN1749.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/HammerMTB/DSCN1750.jpg
Here's where I have a few observations and welcome some feedback:
The rifling marks are not equally distributed on the nose of the bullet all the way around. Lest you think this is a photo trick, the boolits stay in the same left-right orientation each time. They both exhibit the same pattern. 2 rifling reach further up the nose than the rest, tho I think there is an explanation for it. I don't think that's "slumping"
Next, and I did not expect this at all, there was some kind of inclusion or void in 1 of the boolits. It's easy to see. It was not there before I fired the shot. The interesting part is the effect it had on the base: There is a dent in the GC that directly corresponds to the void. Something to make you go hmmmmmmm....

Last, I was looking for a way to tell if the major diameter of the boolit was marked by the grooves of the rifling. I'm not too sure I can tell. It appears the GC has lead on some (but not all) of the groove areas. That would kind of tell the story.
It occurs to me many (if not every one) of you will want to know the rest of the details of this load. It is 7 gr of 700X in a WW Super case, a CCI 300 primer, and obviously, that 265 gr boolit, which BTW, measured a 10.9 BHN the day before I sent it on a journey. The load did an average (10 shots) of 942 FPS with a 13.56 SD over my Chrony. It is downright pleasant to shoot, with very reasonable recoil and little muzzle blast from my SRH 9.5" bbl.
MY explanation for the rifling marks being unequal: The boolit jumps from the cylinder to the bbl thru the throat. The throat is a cone for a reason. The boolit doesn't enter perfectly straight, but is straightened by travel down the bore. Hence, the unequal rifling on the nose.
None of this is meant to disprove "slumping" but to further define just what it is and is not.
Last, with respect to slumping, if the nose of the boolit shifts to the side so it rides the rifling, isn't it safe to say it will stay there all the way to its final destination? Lead is not such an elastic metal it would straighten again after leaving the bbl, is it? So any significant slump would mean a boolit that was badly compromised for accuracy. Am I on the right track?

[mrbill2]

I say you hit the nail right on the head. (The throat is a cone for a reason.) Says it all.
I have no experience with pistol bullet, but shoot cast in my 308. I shoot a 311284 cast from wheelweights. Nose .300 dia and bands sized to.309. There are two driving bands .125 wide and one .100 wide plus the gas check. With only .0045 of lead around the bullet with 3 small bands to engrave the rifling I can't believe the bullet would produce enough resistance needed for the preasure developed in the barrel to change the shape of the bullet on its ride down the bore. That is why bullet fit is so important to start with. If you could relay on pressure alone, bullet fit would not be such desiding factor for accuracy.
Mr. Bill2

[montana_charlie]

I won't try to find words to describe my 'definition' of bullet slump, but I don't think any definition would apply to bullets passing through a revolver.
CM

[runfiverun]

i wouldn't remove the gas check from that boolit.
the wider rifling marks are from the boolit trying to grab it. it's called stripping.
that is exactly why 44man will tell you to use a harder alloy.
that void is sure interesting,it explains why boolits for serious work are weighed individually.

[44man]

Yes, the boolit is too soft and it looks like the land marks at the base are also wider then the actual rifling size too. In this case the gas check is not working to grab the rifling and keep a seal. Lead on the check indicates barrel leading.
Uneven rifling on the nose is another indication the boolit is too soft to align the cylinder with the bore. The few thousandths play at the cylinder lock are there for a reason!
Just because velocity is low means nothing because the pressure with the fast powder has peaked too soon. A slow powder will work better for the softer boolit by extending the pressure peak down the bore after the boolit has transitioned the forcing cone and is moving good and fast. To apply all the pressure to a stationary boolit does not work well.
A small widening of rifling marks at the nose is not too bad but they should not be wider near or at the base.
That boolit shape is hard to slump but some is indicated by the rifling marks too deep, too high on the nose.
The boolit is telling a story, you must read the story and not ignore what it is saying.
As far as "meat" for the rifling, that is like my RD boolit that I recently shot a 1/4" group with at 50 yards and it maintains 3/4" all day. I use water dropped WW's to a harder alloy I make up, BHN running from 22 to 28 after aging and I load 22 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. It also shoots wonderful from a model 29.
Make the boolit harder and tougher, use the slowest powder listed for the velocity you want to shoot and never download slow ball powders.

[runfiverun]

smiling to self...:lol:

[geargnasher]

smiling to self...:lol:

How about predicting next Wednesday's Texas Lotto numbers? I'll split it with you!

Gear

[HammerMTB]

44man,
With all respect for your ability to shoot accurately, I have some comments that I hope you will take as constructive criticism.
My question was, Please define boolit slump. Indirectly, you have left some clues. However, you did not directly address the question, and the clues you left leave your opinion in the minority (actually only you) and fail to address a further question that I left in a later post in this thread, namely if a boolit nose should slump, how does it straighten out after it leaves the bore?
While I recognize that you are trying to be helpful, I would point out that most of your comments below are empirical in nature and not supported by scientific study. I will also share with you that empirical statements do not allow the reader to form an opinion of their own. Such statements seem to imply that you know and are simply imparting your knowledge, not to be questioned.
In the end, I am simply suggesting that you may want to reconsider your method of statement, so that you better support your position and others can see why you feel a certain way, not just "because it's so"
Thanks for your feedback, tho, I learn from a lot of input. I can't say I always collect what's provided and deem it factual, but I DO learn from it.






Yes, the boolit is too soft and it looks like the land marks at the base are also wider then the actual rifling size too. In this case the gas check is not working to grab the rifling and keep a seal. Lead on the check indicates barrel leading.
Uneven rifling on the nose is another indication the boolit is too soft to align the cylinder with the bore. The few thousandths play at the cylinder lock are there for a reason!
Just because velocity is low means nothing because the pressure with the fast powder has peaked too soon. A slow powder will work better for the softer boolit by extending the pressure peak down the bore after the boolit has transitioned the forcing cone and is moving good and fast. To apply all the pressure to a stationary boolit does not work well.
A small widening of rifling marks at the nose is not too bad but they should not be wider near or at the base.
That boolit shape is hard to slump but some is indicated by the rifling marks too deep, too high on the nose.
The boolit is telling a story, you must read the story and not ignore what it is saying.
As far as "meat" for the rifling, that is like my RD boolit that I recently shot a 1/4" group with at 50 yards and it maintains 3/4" all day. I use water dropped WW's to a harder alloy I make up, BHN running from 22 to 28 after aging and I load 22 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. It also shoots wonderful from a model 29.
Make the boolit harder and tougher, use the slowest powder listed for the velocity you want to shoot and never download slow ball powders.

[HammerMTB]

Because the question came up, I miked the lands and compared them to the boolits. Thee is no skidding, that is, the lands and their corresponding grooves in the boolits are the same width.

[Wayne Smith]

Hammer, search out 44Man's other posts and read them. One of the problems with this format is one does not post ones qualifications in every post. That would be overly difficult and, frankly, would look like pride. While I would not call him a pure scientist and don't believe he would either, he does not make unsupported statements. He has experimental evidence for his statements.

My understanding of bullet slump comes from BPCR writing and has a very narrow application. It is applied to a bore riding boolit, that is loaded foreward with the bore riding portion on the lands. When this bore riding portion is too small and unsupported boolit slump is reported.

This makes sense given Dr. Mann's research at the beginning of the century with obturation. He found excessive obturation in barrels cut very short. It makes sense that a unsupported nose will obturate to fill the bore and may do so in an inconsistent way, possibly affected by gravity and thus slump.

[44man]

44man,
With all respect for your ability to shoot accurately, I have some comments that I hope you will take as constructive criticism.
My question was, Please define boolit slump. Indirectly, you have left some clues. However, you did not directly address the question, and the clues you left leave your opinion in the minority (actually only you) and fail to address a further question that I left in a later post in this thread, namely if a boolit nose should slump, how does it straighten out after it leaves the bore?
While I recognize that you are trying to be helpful, I would point out that most of your comments below are empirical in nature and not supported by scientific study. I will also share with you that empirical statements do not allow the reader to form an opinion of their own. Such statements seem to imply that you know and are simply imparting your knowledge, not to be questioned.
In the end, I am simply suggesting that you may want to reconsider your method of statement, so that you better support your position and others can see why you feel a certain way, not just "because it's so"
Thanks for your feedback, tho, I learn from a lot of input. I can't say I always collect what's provided and deem it factual, but I DO learn from it.
Slump does not always happen and depends on boolit shape, hardness and how quickly it is punched by the powder. A powder column can cushion a boolit and prevent damage as can a filler.
I have picked up many boolits from the range that showed slump, most from BPCR. Noses would be bent over and had rifling only on one side of the nose when the nose should not have any rifling on it at all. They started out with no bore ride because the nose was too small for the bore.
Then some were long bore ride boolits that had rifling marks full depth on the bore ride which means the nose was set back to fully engrave the rifling.
Another thing found were short boolits compared to unfired ones that showed no nose damage from hitting anything, most shot into snow at long range. Grease grooves would be smashed very small.
If you start a boolit into the rifling and pull it out, then compare the point where the rifling starts on the nose to a fired boolit, if the fired boolit has more and deeper rifling, it has set back.
All of this is "slump." It can be very subtle and not hurt a thing or can be drastic and bend the nose. No, they do not straighten out in the bore. Keep in mind a small setback is OK and you might not even see it. I am sorry I melted all of those picked up boolits so I can't show you.
Looking at your picture, I see wider rifling marks on the front of the boolit and they taper to the rear. You can't just measure the base marks either because there is nothing accurate enough except in a lab. You forget how small gas molecules are and how tiny a space is needed for them to rush past the boolit, we are not talking about a space you can stick a toothpick in. Your picture shows definite skidding over a long path.
This is something I can show you even with a 30 BHN boolit except it only shows it at the nose and first band, but it is there. This boolit is extremely accurate because it takes the rifling quick. If I get it with 30 BHN, what do you expect from around 10 BHN?

[44man]

I looked at your pictures again and there is something else you ignore. Look at the damage to the boolit from the grooves, it shows setback and slump right there with all of the deformed GG's and crimp grooves. One boolit can't even stand up straight.
I hate to say it but you are showing all of us that your boolits do indeed slump! [smilie=1:
Here is a perfect boolit and is what you should be seeing.

[leftiye]

guess I shoulda known.
There are those who don't know.
There are those who think they know.
Are there any who can legitimately define the term, or just many who can only mock it in hopes it won't spark controversy?
I won't be coy. I have some samples of boolits I shot yesterday. I think there is some definite evidence on them. What that evidence may support would depend on one's definition of "slump"
And we're not talkin' Barak Obama and the economy, or Slick Willy Clinton getting service from a White House intern." HammerMTB

You've got the situation in your sights! We should all be a little careful that we're not assuming too much about our knowledge - as compared to what our egos just make us believe we know. The "humorous" ridicule is insulting to us all, and in poor taste.

A minority of one is all that is necessary - IF that one person is right.

[geargnasher]

44man,
With all respect for your ability to shoot accurately, I have some comments that I hope you will take as constructive criticism.
My question was, Please define boolit slump. Indirectly, you have left some clues. However, you did not directly address the question, and the clues you left leave your opinion in the minority (actually only you) and fail to address a further question that I left in a later post in this thread, namely if a boolit nose should slump, how does it straighten out after it leaves the bore?
While I recognize that you are trying to be helpful, I would point out that most of your comments below are empirical in nature and not supported by scientific study. I will also share with you that empirical statements do not allow the reader to form an opinion of their own. Such statements seem to imply that you know and are simply imparting your knowledge, not to be questioned.
In the end, I am simply suggesting that you may want to reconsider your method of statement, so that you better support your position and others can see why you feel a certain way, not just "because it's so"
Thanks for your feedback, tho, I learn from a lot of input. I can't say I always collect what's provided and deem it factual, but I DO learn from it.

Good Lord, man, what do you want?

If you want to pick on someone, pick on me! (After you've read my comments about boolit slump on Nora's thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=59089).

Gear

[runfiverun]

gear i think he is genuinely interested.
the way james described the picture was what i was seeing also.
except i am not as good at explaining it as he is.
i also have a hard time collecting even my own boolits after shot just because of the material i have to shoot into.
i end up getting maybe 1 in 20 of mine back and usually it isn't the whole thing.
i was also thinking the bent one was from being captured not from nose slump.

[HammerMTB]

Good Lord, man, what do you want?

Gear

I thought my questions and statements were pretty clear. If you can't discern any portion of them, please be specific.

And as far as someone to "pick" on, are you implying that 44man is unable to defend himself? He seems capable enough of typing out what he thinks, at least to me. What is it you feel you need to jump in and defend on his behalf?

It seems this thread has served its purpose. I thought there would be some scientific minded types here who could respond to the question. I got a few good responses, and a lot of smoke. I just make mental note of who can support a position, and who simply has formed an opinion and must support that opinion. :roll:

[HammerMTB]

i was also thinking the bent one was from being captured not from nose slump.

The bent one has a crooked base, not a bent nose.
The rifling marks and bbl rifling were measured using a 6X binocular loupe.
I'd love to look at it in the lab at work, (anything from 100X to electron microscope) but they are touchy about personal use of the equipment.
Thanks for your feedback!

[geargnasher]

I thought my questions and statements were pretty clear. They were, but you can't seem to take anyone's input for what it's worth. I assure you, 44man and others are sincerely offering their best advice and comments, if your conclusions about your boolits disagrees with the learned observations of others, please don't complain that the others are being empirical and unscientific. Almost all the advice herein is. If you have an issue with 44man's, or anyone else's, particular rhetoric I think maybe your attitude is misplaced.If you can't discern any portion of them, please be specific.

And as far as someone to "pick" on, are you implying that 44man is unable to defend himself? He seems capable enough of typing out what he thinks, at least to me. Then take the man's advice before you criticize him.What is it you feel you need to jump in and defend on his behalf? Why does it bother you?

It seems this thread has served its purpose. I thought there would be some scientific minded types here who could respond to the question. I am an extremely scientific type who, like Nora, has already implored you to refer to the posts on another thread for a very scientific and detailed discussion of the topic.I got a few good responses, and a lot of smoke. Why do you continue to insult those who are trying to help, or at least trying to joke a little?I just make mental note of who can support a position, and who simply has formed an opinion and must support that opinion. :roll:

Goodnight.

Gear

[HammerMTB]

Where shall I start?
By pointing out all the places you're wrong below?
Would that do any good?
Is that the scientific method? Take someone's advice and not ask a question? Don't think critically, just go along with whoever's loudest?
I recognize that kind of science. You're one of those scientists that helped Al Gore invent the internet and understand global warming, aren'tcha?

I know you'll need to have the last word, so git-r-done below. There's no more in this thread for me. You saw to that. :roll:




I thought my questions and statements were pretty clear. They were, but you can't seem to take anyone's input for what it's worth. I assure you, 44man and others are sincerely offering their best advice and comments, if your conclusions about your boolits disagrees with the learned observations of others, please don't complain that the others are being empirical and unscientific. Almost all the advice herein is. If you have an issue with 44man's, or anyone else's, particular rhetoric I think maybe your attitude is misplaced.If you can't discern any portion of them, please be specific.

And as far as someone to "pick" on, are you implying that 44man is unable to defend himself? He seems capable enough of typing out what he thinks, at least to me. Then take the man's advice before you criticize him.What is it you feel you need to jump in and defend on his behalf? Why does it bother you?

It seems this thread has served its purpose. I thought there would be some scientific minded types here who could respond to the question. I am an extremely scientific type who, like Nora, has already implored you to refer to the posts on another thread for a very scientific and detailed discussion of the topic.I got a few good responses, and a lot of smoke. Why do you continue to insult those who are trying to help, or at least trying to joke a little?I just make mental note of who can support a position, and who simply has formed an opinion and must support that opinion.

Gear

[leftiye]

Out flaming standing (NOT!)

[10mmShooter]

:mrgreen: I just thought of an easy way to explain bullet slump, personnally I do not dwell on this subject as my lead projectiles are only loaded sub-sonic for the most part.....

But here is a easy example, I use a Dillon 650....when I reload I use as little belling of my brass as possilbe to avoid "overworking" it and causing work hardening of the brass...any way when I place a bullet on top of the brass and pull the handle to seat the bullet, caution has to be used to make sure the bullet is seated nearly straight. This is so the bullet does not enter the brass case crooked. If the bullet goes in slightly crooked it will shave lead off the side and the bullet will be ever so slightly misaligned in the case.

This is a perfect example of bullet slump in reverse, same happens in a revolver, as the powder sluppies the power the bullet moves into the forcing cone and can sometimes be ever so slightly misaligned or in an auto as the bullet moves in the rifling. The closer the match of you bullet diameter and bore will minize this. Anyway for most of us pistol/revevlor shooters even if we have "slump" or misalignment at pistol velocities <1300 fps and < 100yds. The slump effect is negiable, I can punch the 10 ring out of a target at 25 yards.....but I'm just not a good enough shoot that it matters to me.

At extreme ranges a rifle bullet if its out of round or slumping could cause accuracy issues.....again..depends your base skills are you an Olympic marksman or is shooting a hobby.

just my 2 cents.

[geargnasher]

Boolit nose "slump" and cylinder misalignment in a revolver are two entirely different things.

Slump is what happens to the unsupported nose of a boolit when it is "launched" too fast for the resiliency of the alloy. The burning powder, especially FAST powder, literally tries to shove the boolit base through the nose on firing. The cylinder/throat/barrel contains this, but the nose can "set back" especially in semi-wadcutter type boolits and boolits that are made from an alloy that is too soft/weak and the boolit will be shortened. In rfn style boolits, the rifling will creep up on the nose as the nose sets back to fill the bore.

The issue with "slump", or setback, is that it rarely happens in a concentric manner, causing the boolit nose to squash back off center and causing an unbalanced boolit.

As 44man has observed (I paraphrase) if the cylinder in a revolver doesn't have a tiny bit of play at lock, and the cylinder is misaligned a few thousandths, AND/OR the boolit is TOO SOFT for the application, the boolit nose will be deformed by the forcing cone and enter the rifling at enough of an angle to cause uneven rifling marks. This can cause accuracy problems as well.

It all depends on how picky you are and what you are trying to accomplish with your loads.

Gear.

[StarMetal]

Boolit nose "slump" and cylinder misalignment in a revolver are two entirely different things.

Slump is what happens to the unsupported nose of a boolit when it is "launched" too fast for the resiliency of the alloy. The burning powder, especially FAST powder, literally tries to shove the boolit base through the nose on firing. The cylinder/throat/barrel contains this, but the nose can "set back" especially in semi-wadcutter type boolits and boolits that are made from an alloy that is too soft/weak and the boolit will be shortened. In rfn style boolits, the rifling will creep up on the nose as the nose sets back to fill the bore.

The issue with "slump", or setback, is that it rarely happens in a concentric manner, causing the boolit nose to squash back off center and causing an unbalanced boolit.

As 44man has observed (I paraphrase) if the cylinder in a revolver doesn't have a tiny bit of play at lock, and the cylinder is misaligned a few thousandths, AND/OR the boolit is TOO SOFT for the application, the boolit nose will be deformed by the forcing cone and enter the rifling at enough of an angle to cause uneven rifling marks. This can cause accuracy problems as well.

It all depends on how picky you are and what you are trying to accomplish with your loads.

Gear.

I think what you describe as slump is obturation. The bullet sets there and the powder pressure hits trying to move it. The base moves first because that's what the pressure hits first. So if it compresses it has to displace metal and happens in obturation or filling the grooves. I think some are trying to say that an unsupported bullet nose slumps, droops, etc., from the acceleration. I'm with Jumptrap on this on, not buying it. Who's to say that this obturation, compression of metal, or filling the grooves happens evenly all the way around the circumference of the bullet? Perhaps what is perceived as nose slump is uneven metal flow going forward along the bullet circumference causing the nose to go more towards one side.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Hey Joe -

What I was describing was from BPCR shooters, not revolvers. Even then it was the guys shooting 800yds - 1000yds that were talking about it. It strikes me that it won't take a lot of slump to become obvious at those ranges.

As I said before, uneven obturation of an unsupported nose of a nose rider boolit.

[44man]

I think what you describe as slump is obturation. The bullet sets there and the powder pressure hits trying to move it. The base moves first because that's what the pressure hits first. So if it compresses it has to displace metal and happens in obturation or filling the grooves. I think some are trying to say that an unsupported bullet nose slumps, droops, etc., from the acceleration. I'm with Jumptrap on this on, not buying it. Who's to say that this obturation, compression of metal, or filling the grooves happens evenly all the way around the circumference of the bullet? Perhaps what is perceived as nose slump is uneven metal flow going forward along the bullet circumference causing the nose to go more towards one side.

Joe
Not obturation Joe! Expansion. Obturate means "to seal" and a boolit will expand to "obturate." If the boolit is already oversize or fits the throats it will obturate but does not need to expand first.
Yes, nose slump does occur.
Same as using the wrong bullet in a .357 max, .454 and .460 where the core can be blown out leaving the jacket in the forcing cone, not something you would expect with a jacketed bullet.
Lead turns to putty if too soft for the pressure. Bases can flare if unsupported. Bases try to move ahead before the nose due to inertia and no matter how you explain it, the boolit can shorten and noses can slump back or if you want to say it another way, the base catches up with the nose. Anything that ruins the initial shape after you pick a specific mold and do all the work of casting, sizing, lubing, is counter productive. All of it is called slump, doesn't matter if it happens in the throat, at the forcing cone or the chamber of a rifle. Even more rifling on one side of the nose means the boolit slumped off center because it was too soft and could not align itself.
If a RNFP can show this, what happens with a long, unsupported nose?
To show what happens to soft lead, take a musket with a Minie' ball that has a thin skirt and shoot it with 40 or 50 gr of black. It does well but up the powder to 80 gr and as long as the ball is supported by the bore all is still well---until it clears the muzzle. The skirt will flare out like a shuttle cock, it makes nice music going downrange! [smilie=1: Inertia is gone and pressure has dropped but the lead still blows out of shape, reverse slump so to say.
If your boolit looks different at the muzzle then what you loaded, it has slumped and if you can keep a long pointy, unsupported nose straight for every shot, the first thing you will say is it doesn't happen. Many have the idea that 15,000# to 60,000# hitting a boolit in the butt is small potatoes and you give that little piece of lead too much credit.
How you think the base can move forward without effecting the nose and call it other then slump does not compute. :Fire::Fire:
"Slump"--a collapse or failure, nuff said?
What says the pressure on the base is even when the powder is laying on the bottom of the case? Can not pressure hit the base harder on one side then the other? What would keep a nose from bending towards the high pressure point?
I showed a perfect boolit and Hammer showed boolit failures---all slumped, look at the definition.

[StarMetal]

Not obturation Joe! Expansion. Obturate means "to seal" and a boolit will expand to "obturate." If the boolit is already oversize or fits the throats it will obturate but does not need to expand first.
Yes, nose slump does occur.
Same as using the wrong bullet in a .357 max, .454 and .460 where the core can be blown out leaving the jacket in the forcing cone, not something you would expect with a jacketed bullet.
Lead turns to putty if too soft for the pressure. Bases can flare if unsupported. Bases try to move ahead before the nose due to inertia and no matter how you explain it, the boolit can shorten and noses can slump back or if you want to say it another way, the base catches up with the nose. Anything that ruins the initial shape after you pick a specific mold and do all the work of casting, sizing, lubing, is counter productive. All of it is called slump, doesn't matter if it happens in the throat, at the forcing cone or the chamber of a rifle. Even more rifling on one side of the nose means the boolit slumped off center because it was too soft and could not align itself.
If a RNFP can show this, what happens with a long, unsupported nose?
To show what happens to soft lead, take a musket with a Minie' ball that has a thin skirt and shoot it with 40 or 50 gr of black. It does well but up the powder to 80 gr and as long as the ball is supported by the bore all is still well---until it clears the muzzle. The skirt will flare out like a shuttle cock, it makes nice music going downrange! [smilie=1: Inertia is gone and pressure has dropped but the lead still blows out of shape, reverse slump so to say.
If your boolit looks different at the muzzle then what you loaded, it has slumped and if you can keep a long pointy, unsupported nose straight for every shot, the first thing you will say is it doesn't happen. Many have the idea that 15,000# to 60,000# hitting a boolit in the butt is small potatoes and you give that little piece of lead too much credit.
How you think the base can move forward without effecting the nose and call it other then slump does not compute. :Fire::Fire:
"Slump"--a collapse or failure, nuff said?
What says the pressure on the base is even when the powder is laying on the bottom of the case? Can not pressure hit the base harder on one side then the other? What would keep a nose from bending towards the high pressure point?
I showed a perfect boolit and Hammer showed boolit failures---all slumped, look at the definition.

All boils down to metal movement whatever you want to call it.

Joe

[felix]

Don't forget to consider the expansion-contraction of the "barrel" which allows the projectile some breathing room. Just like for projectiles, this barrel (chamber included) reaction has to be consistent from one shot to the next. This is a major reason why some barrels shoot and others don't even when machined exactly the same out of the very same bar stock. ... felix

[felix]

Perfectly said, Joe! ... felix

[leftiye]

Joe, Yes it is all the same thing happening. You've proven our point. When it happens to an unsupported boolit nose, it is called slump. When it happens to a boolit base or shank, it is called expansion. As 44man pointed out obturation does happen even without expansion. As others here have said, deformation due to impact with a forcing cone in a revolver is not slump, just another form of deformation.

[HammerMTB]

As others here have said, deformation due to impact with a forcing cone in a revolver is not slump, just another form of deformation.

This was the direction of my question in the first place.
Boolit slump happens in a rifle with long bore riders.
Getting some rifling engraving on one side of a boolit nose is NOT slump, esp when the shape of the boolit hasn't changed. It can be obturation or misalignment with the forcing cone, another issue altogether.
Thanks, Leftiye! :drinks:

[44man]

This was the direction of my question in the first place.
Boolit slump happens in a rifle with long bore riders.
Getting some rifling engraving on one side of a boolit nose is NOT slump, esp when the shape of the boolit hasn't changed. It can be obturation or misalignment with the forcing cone, another issue altogether.
Thanks, Leftiye! :drinks:
A boolit hitting the forcing cone off center and getting ruined is still "slump" according to the definition which is collapse or failure of the projectile.
Hit the boolit with a hammer and it will "slump." Turn the cylinder out of line and the boolit will "slump." The word itself means failure, not where the boolit experiences it in transition but what happens to the boolit.
The same as obturation used in the wrong context, it means "to seal" not expand. You can not obturate a boolit to seal but you can expand a boolit to obturate or make the boolit large enough to obturate.
ANY damage to a boolit means it "slumped." It does not matter if the nose twisted or the boolit was rifled on one side.
The boolit you showed with a hole in it was a classic "slump."
Joe, you are correct 100%, thank you. Prevent metal movement and there will be no slump.

[StarMetal]

A boolit hitting the forcing cone off center and getting ruined is still "slump" according to the definition which is collapse or failure of the projectile.
Hit the boolit with a hammer and it will "slump." Turn the cylinder out of line and the boolit will "slump." The word itself means failure, not where the boolit experiences it in transition but what happens to the boolit.
The same as obturation used in the wrong context, it means "to seal" not expand. You can not obturate a boolit to seal but you can expand a boolit to obturate or make the boolit large enough to obturate.
ANY damage to a boolit means it "slumped." It does not matter if the nose twisted or the boolit was rifled on one side.
The boolit you showed with a hole in it was a classic "slump."
Joe, you are correct 100%, thank you. Prevent metal movement and there will be no slump.

What'da do, what'da do? [smilie=s:

Joe

[felix]

We need to agree on the term slump. To me, it should remain to the linear progression towards the front of the projectile due only the results of the concentric acceleration vector. The fact of the projectile bending off-center during the process is related to the twist. The first is natural and nothing can or should be done. Now, the second requires a harder projectile, or a reduction of acceleration to compensate. ... felix

[45 2.1]

We need to agree on the term slump. To me, it should remain to the linear progression towards the front of the projectile due only the results of the concentric acceleration vector. The fact of the projectile bending off-center during the process is related to the twist. Not necessarily, more often it is from undersize boolits not entering the barrel throat concentrically.

[StarMetal]

We need to agree on the term slump. To me, it should remain to the linear progression towards the front of the projectile due only the results of the concentric acceleration vector. The fact of the projectile bending off-center during the process is related to the twist. Not necessarily, more often it is from undersize boolits not entering the barrel throat concentrically.

That's kind of what I was hinting at...remember I said maybe the expansion, obturation, metal movement, doesn't happen evenly...and not entering the barrel throat concentrically sure will donate to that.

Joe

[44man]

That's kind of what I was hinting at...remember I said maybe the expansion, obturation, metal movement, doesn't happen evenly...and not entering the barrel throat concentrically sure will donate to that.

Joe
OK, we reach an understanding that a lot of things contribute to slump and it just does not mean the nose setting back or getting crooked.
I think we have done good and made it clear that any damage is bad for accuracy.
Things just get so hard to explain because fellas picture things differently.
I can't get down on Hammer either because he was looking for something different then what his boolits were telling him. I am sorry to say he does have a problem that needs solved.

[felix]

In my mind that would not be called slump, but slop, as in a sloppy fit. ... felix

[HammerMTB]

I can't get down on Hammer either because he was looking for something different then what his boolits were telling him. I am sorry to say he does have a problem that needs solved.

I want to clarify that I feel no need to make the definition or circumstances fit my plan, nor somehow make me "look good" It's no help to me to simply be self-justified. I'm seeking the truth. I appreciate your feedback. I may not always agree, but it is food for thought.
I suspected your definition of "Slump" but hadn't seen it in specific terms until now. My question is now, how did you arrive at that definition? Is it in some lexicon of terms and terminology? Or self-defined? I can freely admit mine is self-defined. It is important we have common terms, or we can't communicate effectively.
At least now I understand when you say "slump" you mean any damage to the projectile. My 22-250 gets bad slump when the j-word boolit meets a ground hog or a yote.

[44man]

I want to clarify that I feel no need to make the definition or circumstances fit my plan, nor somehow make me "look good" It's no help to me to simply be self-justified. I'm seeking the truth. I appreciate your feedback. I may not always agree, but it is food for thought.
I suspected your definition of "Slump" but hadn't seen it in specific terms until now. My question is now, how did you arrive at that definition? Is it in some lexicon of terms and terminology? Or self-defined? I can freely admit mine is self-defined. It is important we have common terms, or we can't communicate effectively.
At least now I understand when you say "slump" you mean any damage to the projectile. My 22-250 gets bad slump when the j-word boolit meets a ground hog or a yote.
Yes, I can see the 22-250 now! :mrgreen:
My definition for slump is right out of the dictionary and I am only going by that meaning. We can't apply our own meanings to words and it is reasonable to have the same meaning no matter what we discuss.
My pet peeve is when someone says you need to make your boolit obturate so that it will seal!
Not using correct meanings will confuse discussions because everyone is thinking a different thing.
The only one I let slide is mold and mould---seems they mean the same thing! :Fire:

[felix]

OK, ok, then. "Then" is not equal to "than". ... felix

[HammerMTB]

Here's what I got from the dictionary:
slump (slmp)
intr.v. slumped, slump·ing, slumps
1. To fall or sink heavily; collapse: She slumped, exhausted, onto the sofa.
2. To droop, as in sitting or standing; slouch.
3.
a. To decline suddenly; fall off: Business slumped after the holidays.
b. To perform poorly or inadequately: The team has been slumping for a month.
4.
a. To sink or settle, as into mud or slush.
b. To slide down or spread out thickly, as mud or fresh concrete.
n.
1. The act or an instance of slumping.
2. A drooping or slouching posture: read defeat in the slump of his shoulders.
3. A sudden falling off or decline, as in activity, prices, or business: a stock market slump; a slump in farm prices.
4. An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity: a slump in a batting average.
5. See grunt.

It is really not much help in separating boolit damage from bore misalignment vs. pressure from behind the boolit causing distortion to the shape at the nose.
Are you perhaps using some ballistic-specific dictionary?
We are closing on my original question, so this interests me.




Yes, I can see the 22-250 now! :mrgreen:
My definition for slump is right out of the dictionary and I am only going by that meaning. We can't apply our own meanings to words and it is reasonable to have the same meaning no matter what we discuss.
My pet peeve is when someone says you need to make your boolit obturate so that it will seal!
Not using correct meanings will confuse discussions because everyone is thinking a different thing.
The only one I let slide is mold and mould---seems they mean the same thing! :Fire:

[runfiverun]

i like felix's ,if the boolit is moving off center it's slumping.
if the base is moving forwards.or the front is moving backwards it's something else. [obduration?] flow,exceeding plasticity.
and obturation is to seal. as i see it.

[geargnasher]

Here's what I got from the dictionary:
slump (slmp)
intr.v. slumped, slump·ing, slumps
1. To fall or sink heavily; collapse: She slumped, exhausted, onto the sofa.
2. To droop, as in sitting or standing; slouch.
3.
a. To decline suddenly; fall off: Business slumped after the holidays.
b. To perform poorly or inadequately: The team has been slumping for a month.
4.
a. To sink or settle, as into mud or slush.
b. To slide down or spread out thickly, as mud or fresh concrete.
n.
1. The act or an instance of slumping.
2. A drooping or slouching posture: read defeat in the slump of his shoulders.
3. A sudden falling off or decline, as in activity, prices, or business: a stock market slump; a slump in farm prices.
4. An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity: a slump in a batting average.
All seem to describe the phenomenon pretty well.
5. See grunt.


It is really not much help in separating boolit damage from bore misalignment vs. pressure from behind the boolit causing distortion to the shape at the nose.
But IS necessary to think of different kinds of boolit damage if you are experiencing performance issues and look to recovered boolits to tell you what part of the launching platform needs to be tweaked.
Are you perhaps using some ballistic-specific dictionary? Sometimes I wish there was one, so many of our differences of opinion come down simply to vocabulary.
We are closing on my original question, so this interests me.

Gear.

[StarMetal]

Yes, I can see the 22-250 now! :mrgreen:
My definition for slump is right out of the dictionary and I am only going by that meaning. We can't apply our own meanings to words and it is reasonable to have the same meaning no matter what we discuss.
My pet peeve is when someone says you need to make your boolit obturate so that it will seal!
Not using correct meanings will confuse discussions because everyone is thinking a different thing.
The only one I let slide is mold and mould---seems they mean the same thing! :Fire:

Mold and mould don't mean the same thing. You can have mold on your shower tile, but you can't have mould on it unless you hang your Lee's there to dry out. [smilie=1:

Joe

[HammerMTB]

While it may be handy or cute to say the dictionary defintions below describe slump, none of them describe it in detail as it relates to ballistics, and I can't imagine you don't well perceive that.

It is a great deal of help to separate the different kinds of boolit damage that results from internal ballistics, if you want to reduce or eliminate that damage.

The very reason the question was raised is that there seemed to be a very general definition to slump, but without specifics relating to causal effects. So the quest for the definition of slump continues.
If we must add qualifiers ahead of slump, then I have no problem with that.
There could be
drive slump- resulting from pressure at the rear of the boolit.
misalignment slump- resulting from throat or chambering damage
and so forth.

If you're hoping to get me to accept one opinion of all this without asking questions, it is going to be a long and tedious relationship, such as it is. :roll:




Here's what I got from the dictionary:
slump (slmp)
intr.v. slumped, slump·ing, slumps
1. To fall or sink heavily; collapse: She slumped, exhausted, onto the sofa.
2. To droop, as in sitting or standing; slouch.
3.
a. To decline suddenly; fall off: Business slumped after the holidays.
b. To perform poorly or inadequately: The team has been slumping for a month.
4.
a. To sink or settle, as into mud or slush.
b. To slide down or spread out thickly, as mud or fresh concrete.
n.
1. The act or an instance of slumping.
2. A drooping or slouching posture: read defeat in the slump of his shoulders.
3. A sudden falling off or decline, as in activity, prices, or business: a stock market slump; a slump in farm prices.
4. An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity: a slump in a batting average.
All seem to describe the phenomenon pretty well.
5. See grunt.


It is really not much help in separating boolit damage from bore misalignment vs. pressure from behind the boolit causing distortion to the shape at the nose.
But IS necessary to think of different kinds of boolit damage if you are experiencing performance issues and look to recovered boolits to tell you what part of the launching platform needs to be tweaked.
Are you perhaps using some ballistic-specific dictionary? Sometimes I wish there was one, so many of our differences of opinion come down simply to vocabulary.
We are closing on my original question, so this interests me.

[montana_charlie]

I said early in the thread that bullet slump and revolvers don't belong in the same sentence. I like 45 2.1's definition/description best, and I agree with those who say bullet contact with a forcing cone is 'change due to impact,' not 'bullet slump'.

When a bullet slumps, it is due to acceleration. On bullets where slump is a distinct possiblity, the nose can expand because it is smaller than the interior of the bore (that's called 'unsupported'), but it won't fully 'obturate' (seal) within the bore.
If it did, it would come out as a straight cylinder.

When everything is in correct balance, ie. the bullet is centered in the bore and straight with it's axis, any 'slump' is mostly an ignored phenomenon. The nose gets fatter, but it stays straight with the bullet's center line. You would admit that the bullet did slump because any physical change due to acceleration is 'slump', but as it was not a detrimental change, you might just call it 'technical slump'.

When something causes the bullet to be off line, or when it is so slender (and lacking strength) that any minute flaw within the alloy is enough to start a bend in the nose, then you're talking about the kind of 'slump' that causes problems.
You could call it 'actual slump', or 'working slump', or some other descriptive term that defines it as something noticeable and unwanted.

The bullet below had a paper patch applied exactly to the beginning of the ogive. At the line which shows the leading edge of the patch, the bullet-with-paper was .457"...and everything forward of that point was less than bore diameter of .450".
It was 'unsupported'.

Upon firing, the nose swelled (evenly) enough to cause the alloy a full tenth of an inch forward of the patch to exceed bore diameter...as proven by the engraving ahead of the patch line.

Even though this nose did not lean sideways, it still illustrates 'technical slump' in that there was a shape change due to acceleration.

The bullet was stopped in a snowbank, but in case you might think the nose fattened upon 'impact', remember that would not have caused the engraving ahead of the patch...

CM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1214

[roadie]

montana_charlie,
Your picture is my definition of slump.
I don't believe that rifling marks on one side of a boolit are due to slump, thats boolit fit, as in undersize or misalignment. A boolit that has obdurated evenly will show the same all around.

I have a really hard time accepting that a boolit nose will bend in a bore from slump, it had to happen on the way in and it had to have the room to do it in.

My 2 cents,
roadie

[geargnasher]

Bravo, MT! A perfect example of what I call slump! (or nose setback).

I don't think any sane person could possibly argue with that evidence.

I also think that in many cases slump is even, as in your example, and goes unnoticed as it is not detrimental to accuracy.

Bent or deformed noses on boolits should be attributed to not starting straight in the rifling for whatever reason, or a casting/loading defect which puts uneven force on the boolit or allows it to collapse unevenly. Undersized-for-chamber-neck cartridges and cheap dies = cartridge runout in bottleneck rounds which virtually guarantee crooked boolit starts. In straight-walled autos, large chambers and too much crimp cause the same thing, though usually to a lesser degree due to the short, fat nose profiles.

Gear

[44man]

Mold and mould don't mean the same thing. You can have mold on your shower tile, but you can't have mould on it unless you hang your Lee's there to dry out. [smilie=1:

Joe
Actually there are three meanings for mold. 1 means a form or matrix that gives a particular shape to anything in a fluid and plastic condition, etc. 2 is any variety of fungous growths commonly found on surfaces, etc and 3 is soft, loose dirt that is rich in decaying matter.
Turn to mould and it refers you to mold.

[44man]

Here's what I got from the dictionary:
slump (slmp)
intr.v. slumped, slump·ing, slumps
1. To fall or sink heavily; collapse: She slumped, exhausted, onto the sofa.
2. To droop, as in sitting or standing; slouch.
3.
a. To decline suddenly; fall off: Business slumped after the holidays.
b. To perform poorly or inadequately: The team has been slumping for a month.
4.
a. To sink or settle, as into mud or slush.
b. To slide down or spread out thickly, as mud or fresh concrete.
n.
1. The act or an instance of slumping.
2. A drooping or slouching posture: read defeat in the slump of his shoulders.
3. A sudden falling off or decline, as in activity, prices, or business: a stock market slump; a slump in farm prices.
4. An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity: a slump in a batting average.
5. See grunt.

It is really not much help in separating boolit damage from bore misalignment vs. pressure from behind the boolit causing distortion to the shape at the nose.
Are you perhaps using some ballistic-specific dictionary?
We are closing on my original question, so this interests me.
My dictionary has for item 2, a collapse or failure. But all of the meanings you list still apply except hitting boolits with a bat! :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

By the way, when I type mould here, spell check puts a red line under it.

[leftiye]

Y'all could make this a lot easier if'n yuh would throw alla them other forms of deformation out of your definition. Misaligned boolits haven't slumped, though they may also do so. Boolits that hit a badly designed chamber or a forcing cone haven't slumped, they've been deformed. Bent bullitz have not slumped, they've been bent. Boolits that have skipped the rifling haven't slumped. Only boolits wherein the nose has been set back solely due to acceleration versus lack of structural strength have slumped.

Though, the bases, and midsections of boolits do also deform by this same acceleration, and could also be said to slump. So, there is slumping in general, and there is nose slump.

[StarMetal]

Here's how I see it. Take an unsupported nose on bullet so there's no interference from it touching the walls of the chamber or cylinder. I think of slump when that nose just slumps, droops, sags, whatever you want to call it from either the acceleration of the bullet or the impact of the powder pressure on the base of it. Here's a bad analogy: You're sitting in your car stopped at a red light. Someone plows into the back of you. You head whips from the impact. Slump...but here's what is wrong with that analogy, as I said it was a back one. The direction of the impact, force, etc., isn't parallel with your head if your body were a bullet and your head the nose of the bullet. I think some here, as well as me, think of slump caused solely by the acceleration, not through metal displacement or deformation. You see what I mean? Hard to explain. Try one more. I think of nose slump as the weight of the nose causes it to slump, sag, droop, etc., cause by something unknown yet. If it's caused by some of the things mentioned in this thread so far, such as metal displacement, expansion, deformation....then to me it's not nose slump and brings me full circle back to what Jumptrap said.

Joe

[44man]

Y'all could make this a lot easier if'n yuh would throw alla them other forms of deformation out of your definition. Misaligned boolits haven't slumped, though they may also do so. Boolits that hit a badly designed chamber or a forcing cone haven't slumped, they've been deformed. Bent bullitz have not slumped, they've been bent. Boolits that have skipped the rifling haven't slumped. Only boolits wherein the nose has been set back solely due to acceleration versus lack of structural strength have slumped.

Though, the bases, and midsections of boolits do also deform by this same acceleration, and could also be said to slump. So, there is slumping in general, and there is nose slump.
Hey are from here in West Giny?
All of what you describe is still slump from metal movement to where it does not belong.
But if you want to make it more complicated by a separate description of damage, it is OK by me but it means more typing and a longer explanation for each type of damage.
I give in! :mrgreen:
Far easier to say my boolit slumped when it hit the forcing cone off center or that my grease gooves slumped.

[leftiye]

I thimk ginny has two "n's".

[StarMetal]

I thimk ginny has two "n's".

I think think has one "n" instead of one "m"

Joe:kidding:

[runfiverun]

i totally think this has strayed abart as far as a thread can get without being hi-jacked.