45acp with 255gr boolit

[Blammer]

anyone have any good loads on the above boolits?

I have some 255gr boolits I want to shoot out of my 45acp and am looking for some load data and suggestions.

[35remington]

Which 255 grain bullet?

Seating depth and OAL matter a lot with these bullets, and many loads I've seen in print with the various 255's make me cringe.

The charge should be dropped notably from 230 grain bullets that normally seat much more shallowly in the case. Some 255's due to a rather short nose and a high amount of their weight in bearing surface length are particularly "pressure raising."

With the bullet unknown, I'd start at 5.0 Unique, for instance, and work from there to about 800-830 fps, which would likely be in the 5.5 grain region. Of course, particular bullets may change this somewhat.

[anachronism]

do you have any of the old Speer manuals? They used to show 45 ACP data for the 260 gr JHP. I most commonly use their Unique data which shows 5.8 grains as a starting load for 822 fps & max at 6.4 grains as max at 822 fps. 231 starts with 5.4 grains at 756 fps &5.9 as max at 824 fps. There are others. Let me know which powder you'd like to use & I'll see what I can find out. The only downside it that they only show the older powders in my books, probably because of their age, & some of these max loads are pretty hot.

Do not even consider using any hot loads in 1917s, S&W or Colt. They simply cannot take it. 35 Remington is absolutely correct about choosing your bullets carefully. As always, you need to start low in your load development & work your way up. This is not so much for Blammer, whom I know to be an experienced handloader, but for any less experienced people who may be reading this thread.

[35remington]

Yep.

6.4 grains Unique is rather much with several of the 255 grain cast bullets that are available to the caster and handloaders.

I wouldn't get near those charges without knowing exactly which 255's and what seating depth and its effect on the remaining case space and pressures.

Which is why I called a halt at 5.5 grains of Unique until more info is provided. Even 5.5 grains can get velocities as high as many 230 grain ball loads (deeper seating gets higher pressures with moderate amounts of powder; 255's may very well obtain equal velocities to 230's with less powder and more pressure due to this).

[Springfield]

I used a 454190 in my 45 Colt, worked well with a case mostly full of ffg Blackpowder. Probably not what you were looking for though!

[Heavy lead]

I have used 5.5 grains of unique with a round nose flatpoint 250 grain commercial hard cast that shot very accurately. Didn't like how snappy they were and shot them up in my 625 though. I think I would back it down to 5 even myself unless I made a spring change.

[Blammer]

Ok it would be the boolit in the middle.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7584.jpg

[hicard]

I have used the 255 gr rfn bullet with 4.5 grs of Unique. You might start there.

[TAWILDCATT]

and I would not use that weight in an 1911.the gun was regulated for 230 gr.
sell or trade the bullets.if the recoils to much it might crack the frame.some one could use the bullets.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[hovbuild@comcast.net]

I have been using 255 swc's for a couple of years now. I shoot pins and these are the best pin knocking bullet there is. I use them in a s&w1911 and a 625, about 4000 through the 1911 and 2500 through the 625. I have done extensive testing on these loads and came up with couple using unique that I like a lot. I tried other powders but kept coming back to unique. This powder has a sweat spot with an AOL of 1.20, 5.3-5.4 grains. At these charges my 1911 runs these at 875 and the 4" 625 about 830. When I go up in charge weights or down I get a lot of unburned powder. I crimp the pistol bullets to .471 but the revolver needs a good hard crimp with a LFC die. These crimps are just below the "running ring" and sort of hang in mid air but set your crimp for .468 or less on the revolver bullets and they won't "walk" away from recoil.
I also tested how well certain bullets and charge weights take down pins and find these to be a safe and non damaging load for the guns I use it in. As usual hitting a pin in the sweat spot will always take it off the table but these loads work just as well when you are out of that spot.
In the 1911 I run a 16# spring with a fitted square bottom firing pin retainer. I also use a buffer but I don't think this is necessary.

[MARTY9]

I shoot 250 gr with 6.5 grains hs6. This is very accurate. I think oal is 1.195 I will check tonight.

[StarMetal]

I have been using 255 swc's for a couple of years now. I shoot pins and these are the best pin knocking bullet there is. I use them in a s&w1911 and a 625, about 4000 through the 1911 and 2500 through the 625. I have done extensive testing on these loads and came up with couple using unique that I like a lot. I tried other powders but kept coming back to unique. This powder has a sweat spot with an AOL of 1.20, 5.3-5.4 grains. At these charges my 1911 runs these at 875 and the 4" 625 about 830. When I go up in charge weights or down I get a lot of unburned powder. I crimp the pistol bullets to .471 but the revolver needs a good hard crimp with a LFC die. These crimps are just below the "running ring" and sort of hang in mid air but set your crimp for .468 or less on the revolver bullets and they won't "walk" away from recoil.
I also tested how well certain bullets and charge weights take down pins and find these to be a safe and non damaging load for the guns I use it in. As usual hitting a pin in the sweat spot will always take it off the table but these loads work just as well when you are out of that spot.
In the 1911 I run a 16# spring with a fitted square bottom firing pin retainer. I also use a buffer but I don't think this is necessary.

Finally, someone else that knows the true design of the 1911....using the square bottom firing pin retainer...more commonly called the firing pin stop. Way to go.

Joe

[The Virginian]

In revolvers loading the .45 ACP or .45 Auto-Rim with 250 or heavier bullets is a different affair than loading them for a 1911 or similar .45 ACP pistol. The seating depth demanded from the pistol to have it function reliably forces one to usually seat these bullets deeper in the case, so starting on the low side is most prudent to keep pressures from causing unanticpated problems. Revolvers are more forgiving in terms of OAL and the margin of safety is there with modern guns shooting these heavier bulleted rounds. One nice thing about using these 250 grain + bullets in a 1911 or .45 ACP pistol at 825-850 fps is you are basically turing it into a "semi-automatic .45 Colt" in terms of ballistics.

[Dale53]

I am no longer a pin shooter, so I have little need for such heavy bullets in my 1911's. However, I WILL be shooting them with my 625's. In fact, I am waiting on a new N.O.E. five cavity mould for the Lyman design 454424 bullet.

I am looking forward to working with that in my .45 Auto Rim revolvers.

I agree thoroughly with being extremely careful with the WW I revolvers. They should NOT be used with anything over factory pressures.

Dale53

[Blammer]

4.5gr unique to start with, thanks guys!

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

You mentioned 45 ACP, but did you mean a revolver or an M1911 design?

If it's an M1911, with a meplat and nose that wide, I envision lots of FTF problems in your future. :(

I can't picture in my mind how to make those boolits feed successfully in a M1911-type pistol. You'd hit the feed ramp way too low, likely winding up with either stovepiped or just plain jammed rounds.

But if it's a wheelgun, go for it.

[R.C. Hatter]

I have used 5.5 grs. Unique under the #454190 Lyman 250 gr. in both the 1917 Colt revolver, in .45 Auto-Rim cases, and the Colt 1911A1 government model ACP. You must be aware of seating depth, and try not to seat much deeper than the normal 230 gr. jacketed bullet would be seated,
because of increasing pressure due to such deeper seating.

[The Virginian]

I really like the heavier bullets in .45 ACP revolvers the best and mostly in .45 Auto-Rim cases. Like the .455 Webley, the .45 Auto-Rim is a slow and heavy cartridge in terms of ballistics and the bottom line is a nice big 45 hole is well a .45 hole so hollow points need not apply.:-P

[ChuckS1]

Elmer Keith recommended the 454524 and "4 or 5 grains of Bullseye or 6 grains of Unique" in the AR case as a "great light load". Now obviously you can't use the AR brass, but it should work in an ACP case. Of course, can't guara

[Dale53]

Chucks1;
This image is too small to read. I have it on my hard drive so it's not a problem for me. However, it IS a problem for those who don't have it.

If you cannot send a larger file (I don't want to tramp all over your post) let me know and I will send a larger image. Keith's info is GOOD!

Dale53

[ChuckS1]

Chucks1;
This image is too small to read. I have it on my hard drive so it's not a problem for me. However, it IS a problem for those who don't have it.

If you cannot send a larger file (I don't want to tramp all over your post) let me know and I will send a larger image. Keith's info is GOOD!

Dale53

Yeah, saw that. Deleted it and just quoted Elmer. [smilie=1:

[Dale53]

ChuckS1;
Here is the image:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img066.jpg

Dale53

[dogbert41]

The pictures have since been removed, but there was this article:

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/CTT0907.html

I think the heavy loads made them nervous and they wanted to hide the article...

[geargnasher]

I've done the 454190 thing in the 1911, kept running into seating issues. The base needs to be about .020" below where the case begins to thicken toward the case head, and seating them as far out as possible still put a bulge ring in the middle of the case. I've tried the 452664 and it fits the case and gun perfectly, but does have some feeding issues.

Other issues: One needs a heavier recoil spring for all but the most "powder puff" charges behind these heavyweights, and accuracy was terrible with both above boolits when pushed even slightly hard.

454190, 5.0 gr. Universal Clays 1.250" OAL
454190, 4.3 gr. Titegroup 1.250"
W-W and TZZ brass worked best (thin walls). These loads gave best accuracy in 3" Kimber. You can go almost a grain hotter for both, but that is pushing it even with an 18lb spring.

Gear

[The Virginian]

Methinks Keith was a bit on the hot side for 1911s and 1917s so work your load up carefully.

[Dale53]

Methinks Keith was a bit on the hot side for 1911s and 1917s so work your load up carefully.

I would like very much to SECOND this notion. First of all, Keith didn't hot rod the 1911 with heavy bullets. His loads were for the Auto Rim cases so that they would NOT be put in 1911's. In addition, 2400 is reportedly faster burning than in Keith's time. The 2400 loads should certainly be reduced.

In later years it was discovered that 1917's were not heat treated and there HAVE been some cylinder failures in the old guns. The modern S&W 25's and 625's are considerably stronger than the early Smiths and Colts.

I will be using some Lyman 454424 cast bullets in my 625's but I am NOT going to be trying to make a .45 Magnum out of my 625's. A 250-260 gr Keith style bullet at 900 fps is all I will be asking of my 625's and that level will give me adequate power for self defense or short range deer hunting. My 625's will handle that load forever without damage.

Dale53

[gray wolf]

I no this is an old thread but I would like to ask a question. A couple of times I noticed reference to a square bottom firing pin stop for the 45 ACP- It was to my understanding that the original patent called for the flat bottom firring pin stop to have a slight bevel on the leading edge. Also that this has been found to give the feeling of less recoil and less muzzle jump. This seems to come about because the coming out of lock up or the rearward motion of the slide is slightly delayed. I have also been told that while on horse back this arrangement was a little hard to work the slide. That prompted the long rounded edge on the firring pin stop that is so popular today. Also that many people are going back to the square bottom stop because of the reasons mentioned above.
Would someone care to comment on this. As to true or false?
Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I found this point interesting.

Thank you men

GW.

[Catshooter]

I use 4.7 grains of Universal Clays behind my 255 grainers. Runs about 800 fps out of short barrels, close to 900 out of five inchers.


Cat

[Dale53]

Speer's #14 Reloading Manual has data for the .45 Auto rim and their swaged 255 gr bullets.

FWIW
Dale53

[Bullshop Junior]

Speer's #14 Reloading Manual has data for the .45 Auto rim and their swaged 255 gr bullets.

FWIW
Dale53
Oh Boy, Here we go again! :)

[Dale53]

BS Junior;
No, the Speer #14 is the current manual and there should be NO controversy regarding the data therein.

Dale53

[Ford SD]

a comment on heavy loads 250g plus in the 45acp called pin loads

did a bit of this 10 plus years ago don't rember the data
but was comp 45acp with 24 lb spring
the one thing i rember was working up loads and having pot belly brass show up when shooting over my crony

what we did at that point was sort brass and any head stamp that started to belly out did not get used
at that time it was rp brass

win was the best so we sorted brass and used win brass only
but any of the data you use ---- USE WITH CAUTION
and that is why if i could find that data i would be relunctant to post it it was hot

I noticed one poster using a 18 lb spring and square bottom firing pin stop
and having no problems

there are 10 million people out there that know more than me about 1911 but what i know is every part in a 1911 and the amount of wear / springs recoil and hammer spring / fit up ie (square bottom firing pin stop) barrel all make a differance to the operation / function


I no this is an old thread but I would like to ask a question. A couple of times I noticed reference to a square bottom firing pin stop for the 45 ACP- It was to my understanding that the original patent called for the flat bottom firring pin stop to have a slight bevel on the leading edge. Also that this has been found to give the feeling of less recoil and less muzzle jump. This seems to come about because the coming out of lock up or the rearward motion of the slide is slightly delayed. I have also been told that while on horse back this arrangement was a little hard to work the slide. That prompted the long rounded edge on the firring pin stop that is so popular today. Also that many people are going back to the square bottom stop because of the reasons mentioned above.
Would someone care to comment on this. As to true or false?
Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I found this point interesting.

Thank you men

GW.

how about a expert / gunsmith give us a lesson on the square bottom firing pin stop and how it affects function

my para 1911 45acp clone has a rounded firing pin stop, 20lb wolf recoil spring ,match barrel and shoots 200g lead min load data from the win book for 231/ wst/ but i also have a heavy/ strong grip (200g at 850+- fps) practice ammo and only starts to hickup after 300 plus rounds ( dirty- wax&powder and lube combining) to cause slowing down FTF slide closing, worse in the cold as you could expect
What am i doing wrong!!!:castmine:
ps first post but have been looking for about the last 6 months lots of info here

[bushwaker]

i'm no expert but i can tell the difference in felt recoil. i own 13 1911's and have done this mod on all of them 45acp and 10mm.

[gray wolf]

I think I am correct on what I said about the square bottom on the pin stop.
I may have the details a little fuzzy. But I believe the original had a square bottom with a small radius on the leading edge.
There was about 20 pages on the 1911 forum about year ago and what I said was the conclusion of the ("experts over there") Chime in guy's.

GW.

[Bullshop Junior]

I think if you want to shoot boolits that heavy you should get a 45 Colt.

[Bullshop Junior]

BS Junior;
No, the Speer #14 is the current manual and there should be NO controversy regarding the data therein.

Dale53
I was kidding.
:kidding:

[Bass Ackward]

45 Colt? Like this? The correct designation is 45AR Colt

Well, it's just is in short cases.

Wanna see my 454 imitation? :grin:

[Cannoneer]

I've used both the LEE 250 gr RNFP and the LYMAN Cowboy 250 gr RNFP bullets cast from range scrap and 5.5 to 6.0 grains of unique as well as 4.0 grains of HP38 out of both my Springfield M1911A1 and my S&W 625 and 1917 Colt New Service.

Out of the revolvers I shot using full moon clips and the same loads in .45 AR cases.

In the M1911A1 I added a shock buff and a new recoil spring guide with a spring loaded plunger that acts like a shock absorber.

These loads shot well in all my handguns and the added parts in the 1911 softened up felt recoil in all loads.

[35remington]

Bass, you just know somebody had to bite, so I will.

What's the bullet and load particulars, and seating depth? I cast 14 different bullet designs in 45 pistol and have used all in the Auto Rim, but I cannot say despite their great variety that any is absolutely optimal for the Auto Rim revolver.

What I'd like to have is:

Thick forward band or long bearing surface well forward to grab rifling immediately and reduce skidding. A heavier bullet has more potential bearing surface but more inertia which increasing skidding, so for me it's helpful if a lot of that weight is in bearing surface.

Unfortunately, a lot of the heavy long bearing surface bullets seat deeply in the case, increasing jump and pressures.

Yet I'd also like shallow bullet seating to lower pressures and increase case capacity. Hard to reconcile with a long bearing surface.

So the perfect bullet in one area is usually less than optimal in another.

What have you got there?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, you just know somebody had to bite, so I will.

What's the bullet and load particulars, and seating depth? I cast 14 different bullet designs in 45 pistol and have used all in the Auto Rim, but I cannot say despite their great variety that any is absolutely optimal for the Auto Rim revolver.

What I'd like to have is:

Thick forward band or long bearing surface well forward to grab rifling immediately and reduce skidding. A heavier bullet has more potential bearing surface but more inertia which increasing skidding, so for me it's helpful if a lot of that weight is in bearing surface.

Unfortunately, a lot of the heavy long bearing surface bullets seat deeply in the case, increasing jump and pressures.

Yet I'd also like shallow bullet seating to lower pressures and increase case capacity. Hard to reconcile with a long bearing surface.

So the perfect bullet in one area is usually less than optimal in another.

What have you got there?


I figured that you have to hang the lead outside the case and that leaves an olgival design as the only option.

That is an LBT, 260 grain LFN that he makes for automatics (no crimp groove) and I just seat it at the back of the first grease groove for the revolver. And cutting down the jump is EXACTLY why I do it more than for the extra power. This is a GC design so it allows me to shoot softer in the 4"er.

That makes OAL: 1.375 giving you 19 grains of usable case capacity compared to 12 grains of case capacity when I seat it to 1.21.

The seating in the case with the 1.375 OAL is .196 and solid as a rock. I can't rotate the slug in the case.

I was joking about the Colt as it would have 27 grains of case capacity with this at a normal OAL. But ..... it is virtually the same as a standard Schofield (1 .43) at 20 grains.

Powder ranges at this OAL range from Unique down to AA#7 depending on barrel length with the compromises (I have 4", 5", 6 1/2") between Power Pistol, HS-6, and AA#5 depending on just how fast I want it to go.

I have had the mold for a day or two and wanted to try it and then improve the design (basically shorten the unsupported nose weight and meplat using the weight to widen the front band holding the weight at 260) but I haven't seen the need at this point in case I get an automatic again someday. (always fed nice)

This is stable even as low as 750 fps holding 4" to 5" @ 100 yards reliably from the 4". Below that level and it will start to elongate the holes. The load in those pictured is 7.8 grains of Unique at 900 fps from the 4" at @ 20.5k according to Quickload. It likes that load.

[Keith DVM]

I have started a similar project with a LBT LFN. Veral Smith as a standard mold in his catalog, a 230 grain LFN for the 45 acp. I also have a second mold which is a 250 grain of the same design which was purchased on Veral's last sale but I have not loaded many of these at this time. The first mold casts at 239 with my alloy and I load these for a Smith 625 and USFA with 45 acp cylinder. These are seated to just cover the single crimp grove in acp case and are taper crimped so that they can not be push back into the case. I would like to try a WFN of 230 to 240 grains with a crimp grove and the auto rim case. The WFN would likely give a larger powder space. Thus far I have only use lighter loads of bullseye or 231 for velocities in the range of 750 fps. The difficulty I find is that loading data for cast bullets of 240 grains or more is very limited. I would like to know what some of the actual measured pressures are on the loads that exceed 850 fps. Straight wall pistol cases do not give high pressure signs like bottle neck rifle cases. Once high pressure sign show up I think safe pressure have been passed by a large margin.

[Bass Ackward]

Straight wall pistol cases do not give high pressure signs like bottle neck rifle cases. Once high pressure sign show up I think safe pressure have been passed by a large margin.

That is the risk that you run for sure. But it takes X amount of pressure to produce X amount of velocity.

But when you take Quickload and set up the data for all the originality for THAT gun using a chronograph making the actual velocity recorded jive with the predicted and the velocities and pressures are in line with stuff that is actually tested in reloading manuals, then I have more margin for error as I assume that the pressures that the computer predicts as you go on up will also be proportional as long as the chrono readings and computer agree on the velocity.

Where you get into trouble is if you are trying to do it with the faster for cartridge powders as pressure is more likely to spike at some point than the computer assumes will be a linear rise. So I counter that by staying with s l o w e r for cartridge powders and avoid powders that are known to have this characteristic even though they are the same burn rate, (like old WW630) such where that risk is minimized.

[Keith DVM]

I have only occasional access to a chronograph and have not ever use Quickload. I have only had several of new and older manuals to rely on. I find all these comment interesting and it is good thing to learn something new each day.

[ddixie884]

Good thread

[Stuckcase]

FNX 45 Tactical
Yankee Hill 3 port comp
24# Rowland RSA

Been working with heavy doses of 800x and Blue Dot
Both are above regular book listings.

They feed well and hit like a F150

You just have to ask yourself how hard you want to push the cartridge. 900 FPS will take just about anything North America with proper shot placement. 6 grains of uniques has been my bread and butter with that bullet for going on twenty years in several makes and models.

[Stuckcase]

Kimber Aegis Elite with 20# spring and one piece guide rod---had square bottom firing pin stop---found no discernible difference in performance
My gun---my load---use at your own risk
Sig brass--standard ACP
255 gr Hunter Supply SWC .452
7.2 gr IMR 800X
Winchester Large Pistol Primer
Pure Magic in the ol' 1911
Not chrono'd---no need---good ejection, no primer swipes---no recovered bullets!
The more I use 800X, the more I find it to be the perfect 45, 10 mm, 9 mm powder. I use a Lyman digital auto measure set up so the cornflake design causes me no beef.
Next bullet to experiment with is the Montana SWC GC of similar weight.
Once you get the bug, you can't help but experiment even after finding what you were looking for!

[Outpost75]

In my S&W M1917 and Colt New Service .45 ACP I load 4 grains of Bullseye with Accurate 45-264H for 700 fps.

This bullet WILL NOT chamber in an M1911 because it has a full-diameter forepart to fit the cylinder throats.

[ddixie884]

Still a good thread.........

[honus]

Yes, a good thread. I've been searching for revolver data for Starline 45 Cowboy Special with a 255 grain cast.

[ranchman]

I don't know how it would compare to your specific 255, but I just finished some load development in cowboy brass with an accurate moulds SWC weighing basically 250grains that's very similar to the 454424 & 452423 bullets. I was doing my development & shooting through a single action Colt. 7.3grains Unique was acceptable enough for bush carry to 25yards (2-3") but 6.5grains Unique was so incredibly accurate group after group that I called it a load with 6.5 instead. Bit less pressure in those stubby cases and consistent groups under an inch to 25yards. Velocity spreads were single digit too. And the velocity I got at 6.5 with my 250 is very useable utility...

6.5gr Unique gave 933fps over my chrony
7.3gr Unique was 1053 ... whopper.. I have to wonder what the pressure might be on that one, but reading some of Larry's data, I'd venture to guess well into +P / +P+ territory.

Barrel is a 5.5" on my Colt, and the cowboy brass was fired through an ACP cylinder, no modifications, milling or anything of the sort. They drop right in and go. Factory Winchester 230FMJ ammo shoots the same exact left/right for sighting, but lands approximately 2" lower. So with a 25yard zero using factory stuff for plinking and practice, I have the thing shooting 250's @930+ just 2" high for the same hold, and get a 50yard zero with them which is nice for field use. Pretty slick. I'm liking that ACP-cylinder & cowboy-brass combo very much!

[Alferd Packer]

Every gun is different.What works for one may not work for another.
I would load only five shells and try it.
Then go ahead or try another way.
It's all experimental.
Nothing is a sure thing.
Good Luck!

[ddixie884]

I don't know how it would compare to your specific 255, but I just finished some load development in cowboy brass with an accurate moulds SWC weighing basically 250grains that's very similar to the 454424 & 452423 bullets. I was doing my development & shooting through a single action Colt. 7.3grains Unique was acceptable enough for bush carry to 25yards (2-3") but 6.5grains Unique was so incredibly accurate group after group that I called it a load with 6.5 instead. Bit less pressure in those stubby cases and consistent groups under an inch to 25yards. Velocity spreads were single digit too. And the velocity I got at 6.5 with my 250 is very useable utility...

6.5gr Unique gave 933fps over my chrony
7.3gr Unique was 1053 ... whopper.. I have to wonder what the pressure might be on that one, but reading some of Larry's data, I'd venture to guess well into +P / +P+ territory.

Barrel is a 5.5" on my Colt, and the cowboy brass was fired through an ACP cylinder, no modifications, milling or anything of the sort. They drop right in and go. Factory Winchester 230FMJ ammo shoots the same exact left/right for sighting, but lands approximately 2" lower. So with a 25yard zero using factory stuff for plinking and practice, I have the thing shooting 250's @930+ just 2" high for the same hold, and get a 50yard zero with them which is nice for field use. Pretty slick. I'm liking that ACP-cylinder & cowboy-brass combo very much!

Good show..............

[ddixie884]

I loaded a few 7gr Herco under a 255gr SWCBB commercial cast bullet and it seemed a little warm so I backed off to 6gr. These were loaded long for revolver use, even with the crimp groove but not crimped. These are pretty mild and I think I'll try 6.5 next time..............