I need advice to stop leading!

[moses]

I have been shooting Valiant lead bullets for years and recently decided to start casting my own.
I am using lead I get from my indoor range, it is a mix of the lead that is in Jacketed bullets and lead that is used in store bought lead boolits i.e. (valiant and Missouri type) My 45 load is a 200 gr Lee SWC mould and it is shooting pretty good only a little leading and pretty accurate.

My 9mm is a 125 gr Lee mould and it is leading something awful! Lead through out the barrel and long shavings about 3/4 of the way down the barrel. The accuracy is terrible also.

I am loading 3.3 grs of tite group and 3.6 grs of W231 both of these loads are .3 grs under minimum listed on the Hogden website so they are not hot by any means. (I also tried loads with more powder but they leaded even worse)

Is the lead too soft and if so can I water quench them from the mold to make them not lead the barrel?
Do I need to add wheel weights to the mix?
I hope I can fix the problem and still be able to use the indoor range lead as I get as much as I want and it's all free!

I am sizing the 9mm with a .356 RCBS sizer and used RCBS bullet lube.
Could it be the lube sucks?
I shot these thru a Sig 228 and a Browning highpower, both have had 100's of FMJ's shot thru it before.

thanks for any help!

p.s. the good news is I shot over 300 rds that I cast and had no failures of any kind.

[Bob Krack]

I might not know much about it but it seems that the biggest culprit (in the circumstances you describe) is a boolit too small.. Try some without sizing (as cast) - or have them sized to .357 or .358. A little too large will not likely cause any damage - especially with your apparent "light" load.

Most will recommend that you "slug" your barrel which certainly is not a bad idea. The shavings are a pretty good indication of gas blow-by (gas cutting).

Do you have a way to measure the diameter of your boolits and the Valiant boolits?

Many will chime in here and kinda give silly answers (this might be one of them) and many really good answers and ways to solve your problem.

Lube is not likely to be the answer - powder is not likely to be the answer - boolit diameter is actually more likely to be the problem than is lead hardness.

Bob

[moses]

The bullets measure .356 after sizing.

I have only shot FMJ's thru these 2 9mm pistols before these bullets I cast.
The Valiants were 45's.

[Bob Krack]

The bullets measure .356 after sizing.

I have only shot FMJ's thru these 2 9mm pistols before these bullets I cast.
The Valiants were 45's.
I caught the .356 but missed the .45-Valiant reference.

Point being - .356 could very well be too small for the 9MM. I tried to cover bases, most others here would rightfully suggest you slug the bore without giving you any other (or not much other) information (until after you slug).

Trying to help, not to rain on your parade.

Bob

[Wayne Smith]

Bob is right, we are all gonna say "Slug your barrel!" You only have one of two critical dimensions. Knowing the size of your boolit is useless unless you also know the size of the tube it's going down. Since this is an auto your tube should be smooth and straight with no tight spots. Thus the most likely answer is a boolit that is too small. You won't know, however, until you slug that barrel!

[randyrat]

I agree with the above to reinforce the importance of "size of bullet" compared to your GROVE diameter.
Long strips of lead in your barrel suggest stripping or the rifling not gripping the bullets- too small of boolit/ and too soft. Or at least a good indicator.

[Bret4207]

To start with you need to get your barrel free of all fouling- copper jacket, powder and lead. You need to start off with as close to a surgically clean barrel as you can. Simple jacket fouling can give you leading.

The first thing you ALWAYS need to think about with cast is FIT. There are few hard and fast rules in this game but if the boolit doesn't fit you might as well stop right there. It's helpful to slug your barrel- pass a lubed soft lead oversize or upset boolit through the barrel to determine it's minimum dimensions- but you can also figure it out by trying successively larger boolits in the gun till you have problems (won't chamber, excess pressure) or the leading goes away and groups tighten. The gun and load will ultimately determine what the best size to use is WITH THAT ALLOY. A different alloy MAY be able to get away with a different size-maybe.

I would do as Bib said and try some boolits unsized. Make up a test round and see if they chamber freely. If it won't chamber you'll need a different sizing die to try. If they chamber then load up 10 or 20 with a reduced powder charge ( you will be using a larger boolit- more pressure) and see if the leading stops or is reduced and groups tighten. If so you know what the problem was.

Harder alloy isn't going to solve the problem if your barrel wants .358 and you're sizing .356. I can say with some confidence you will probably end up finding a .357 or .358 boolit will work much better. I wouldn't mess with full bore loads till I got the leading issue figured out. Go for a nice medium load.

[StarMetal]

Me thinks your lead is too soft and I won't comment on your bullet size until you slug your barrels and get groove sizes. I also wouldn't load under the minimum that Hodgdon has listed.

Joe

[runfiverun]

why does everyother question on here relate to the 9mm and the lee boolit?

[StarMetal]

why does everyother question on here relate to the 9mm and the lee boolit?

That's easy runfiverun, the 9mm has the bore and groove diameter all over the place, has the most un-uniform brass out there, has some of the faster twists for a handgun, and wide variety of different pistol manufacturers. Couple that with a novice cast reloading and more trouble pops up for it then says the 38/357 revolver and even another auto loade...the 45 acp.

Joe

[theperfessor]

Maybe because 9mms vary more in bore size than almost any other popular cartridge you could mention, and Lee molds are popular because of their low cost and wide use.

By the way, my Hi-Power slugs at .358 and leads like crazy with any smaller diameter cast bullets made in any brand of mold. I size to .3585 and get very little leading, chamber is cut loose enough so no going-in-to-battery problems either.

[Trey45]

Just to ask the question here, but other than a too small bullet, could it possibly be a lube issue as well?

[Wayne Smith]

Trey, generally leading close to the forcing cone is boolit fit, close to the end of the barrel is lube, along the length of the barrel is fit and/or an alloy that is too soft for the stress put upon it.

[StarMetal]

Maybe because 9mms vary more in bore size than almost any other popular cartridge you could mention, and Lee molds are popular because of their low cost and wide use.

By the way, my Hi-Power slugs at .358 and leads like crazy with any smaller diameter cast bullets made in any brand of mold. I size to .3585 and get very little leading, chamber is cut loose enough so no going-in-to-battery problems either.

Well that goes to show you. My Browning Hi-Power slugs at a tight .356. Is your Browning of war time manufacture?

Joe

[Bret4207]

Each gun is a law unto itself. Took me a long time to figure that out.

[theperfessor]

My Browning is post-war commercial but very old, I've had it for a long time, and it was used when I got it. It is made in Belgium. I'd shoot it more but I hate picking up brass.

[jdgabbard]

Clean out the copper fowling, slug your bore, and if it measures out good, then come back. Otherwise size .001 to .002 over and go from there. It really is a science, but not to difficult to figure out in most cases. Good luck.

[Sturgell]

You might try pushing them a little harder too.

[runfiverun]

a good layer of lube in the bbl can help the next one from leaving lead in the bbl and so on.
joe knows this trick. if you think it might be the lube precondition the bbl with some lube.
castor oil is a good one, just a wet patch. and then shoot, see what happens.

[Echo]

I would load successively larger diameter boolits until they start giving chambering problems, and drop back a thousandth. My P1 chambers rounds loaded with .358 PBSWC boolits, and shoots them as well as anything else - with no leading.

[918v]

A while back I went on a 9mm slugging expedition:

Berettas are .358"
S&Ws are .355"
Sigs are .358"
I read Walther P38s are .358"
I read Rugers are .355"

Some have throats (freebore), some don't. Those that do are usually .002" larger than groove diameter.

As has been suggested above, slug your barrel. Then check the throat diameter. Use the largest bullet that will fit the throat. You may be surprised that the only thing that works is a .360" projectile. Then you may have bullet seater issue. My seater will stick a 9mm case with a .360" bullet.

I came up with a solution:

I got a .357" bullet nose forming die from CH. I run 148gr HBWC through it. It forms a 2.5R ogjive and compresses the skirt so it becomes some three times thicker than it used to be. It still has a hollow base so it should obturate anything. I have not seen any leading with 3.7grs of 231, but I haven't clocked them yet. They are prolly doing 800 FPS.

I can't comment on accuracy because I'm still in the early stages of load development, but the above load groups under an inch at 15 yards from a Beretta 92.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/918v/thisone.jpg?t=1250359295

[moses]

I slugged my barrel and came up with .356 in my Sig I didn't slug the High power.
My bullets are sized to .356 so I guess I need to get a .357 sizer.

On topic what is the best way to slug a bore?
I used a as cast oversize bullet .360
I left a small gap in the mould so it would make the bullet over sized.
I then tried to go chamber end and couldn't really get it to move so I put it nose first in the kroil soaked barrel muzzle end and basically beat the end of the bullet with a hammer (carefully) until almost flush with the end of the barrel and then tapped the bullet back out and measured between the grooves the lands left.

[918v]

I use a HBWC because they are pure lead and go into the barrel easier. I go chamber in.

You may need a larger sizer depending how big the throat in your Sig is.

[StarMetal]

My Browning is post-war commercial but very old, I've had it for a long time, and it was used when I got it. It is made in Belgium. I'd shoot it more but I hate picking up brass.

Mine was bought new in mid 80's and it's a Belgium made one also. Has the target sights. My match barre in my 1911 in 9mm is .353. Of all the 9mm's that I've owned only one has a fat groove and that is my original WWII Walther P 38 and it's not all that fat either.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I slugged my barrel and came up with .356 in my Sig I didn't slug the High power.
My bullets are sized to .356 so I guess I need to get a .357 sizer.

On topic what is the best way to slug a bore?
I used a as cast oversize bullet .360
I left a small gap in the mould so it would make the bullet over sized.
I then tried to go chamber end and couldn't really get it to move so I put it nose first in the kroil soaked barrel muzzle end and basically beat the end of the bullet with a hammer (carefully) until almost flush with the end of the barrel and then tapped the bullet back out and measured between the grooves the lands left.

For all practical purposes, and considering this is new modern firearm, your muzzle measurement will suffice. We're not dealing with a bench target rifle here. Although I've shot groove size bullets out of many rifles and handguns with excellent results I'd try size .357 of a harder alloy (ww's or better yet 50/50 which is ww/lead, up the charge to at least the minimum that Hodgdon lists, and have a go at it. Any of the commercial lubes should be fine, but you really don't need the hard ones that require a heater or even if you're pan lubing. Seat your bullets out far enough so that they will still chamber fully reliably and of course still fit the magazine. I always put a very light roll crimp on mine and you'll hear a truck load of votes and opinions favoring a taper crimp. Personally I don't own a taper crimp and won't.

Joe

[mooman76]

I use round balls for ML's. They are soft lead and have less bearing surface so are easier to drive through. I go Muzzle end and since I shoot ML's it makes it easier to come by the RB's.

[wallenba]

Did you have anyone test the BHN for you? You asked if it was too soft. Recovered range lead has a lot of soft lead from .22's. Just wondering.

[moses]

I don't have a hardness tester and I don't know anyone close who does, but I would like to find out the hardness.


I did try loads using min all the way to maximium powder chagers too and they leaded worse than the under minimum loads I tried.
I was always told that as long as the load would function the semi auto it was fine.

I will try the hotter loads with the newly sized bullets to, but I will have to wait until I get my new .357 sizer die.

Does water quenching the bullets really make the lead harder? I cast a hundred or so last night to try it.

[mooman76]

All you have to doo is try to scratch the bullet with your fingernail and compare water quinched to not. You should see a difference unless you are using pure lead.

[StarMetal]

I don't have a hardness tester and I don't know anyone close who does, but I would like to find out the hardness.


I did try loads using min all the way to maximium powder chagers too and they leaded worse than the under minimum loads I tried.
I was always told that as long as the load would function the semi auto it was fine.

I will try the hotter loads with the newly sized bullets to, but I will have to wait until I get my new .357 sizer die.

Does water quenching the bullets really make the lead harder? I cast a hundred or so last night to try it.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on the minimum load. I didn't mean raising it as a solution to your leading problem, I meant it on a safety factor. You are below recommended minimum and in certain situations that can lead to a disaster. We had discussion on something similar to that where a poster wanted to go below the mininum load for a 357 cartridge using Unique powder. Just be careful and follow recommended data by the manufacture of the powder.

Try harder alloy and up the sized diameter and let's see what happens from there.

Joe

[runfiverun]

water quenched has a waiting period for the full hardness to be achieved. i usually wait three weeks.

[StarMetal]

water quenched has a waiting period for the full hardness to be achieved. i usually wait three weeks.

This is true, but only of reaching it's hardest state. They are right away harder then air cooled, but I would wait at least two weeks, preferably a month.

Joe

[Dale53]

The "Rule of thumb" is to use the largest CAST bullet you can chamber. This is easily determined by using a fired case as a gauge. If the bullet will fit into the fired case, the bullet is NOT too large. So, the largest bullet that will not interfere with chambering will be your best chance to stop leading.

Using the fired case (you might want to check several) as a gauge does two things - it determines the largest bullet you can safely use and it will show you if your cases are varying (by brand and size) too much. You are gauging both the bullet and the case. That, of course, pre-supposes that your pistol is not mangling the cases as they eject (some designs do, unfortunately).

The ideal is to have a single brand of cases. That tends to make things much easier to figure out. However, most of us, have a mix of case brands. In some calibers that is not so much of a problem. However, when I was shooting IPSC (.45 ACP) I discovered that Remington cases were too thin and would cause deep seating when the cartridges hit the barrel ramp. My favorites ended up being military cases as they were uniformly thicker. They DID require primer pocket swaging but that is a one time affair. That was with my particular brand of dies, of course. Another brand may have altered that.

The point is that you may have to experiment a bit to see what works best. We have pointed the way, and I believe that you will find your problem is the bullet diameter (too small).

Dale53

[Bret4207]

I don't have a hardness tester and I don't know anyone close who does, but I would like to find out the hardness.


I did try loads using min all the way to maximium powder chagers too and they leaded worse than the under minimum loads I tried.
I was always told that as long as the load would function the semi auto it was fine.

I will try the hotter loads with the newly sized bullets to, but I will have to wait until I get my new .357 sizer die.

Does water quenching the bullets really make the lead harder? I cast a hundred or so last night to try it.

Did you try unsized boolits yet? See if they'll fit.

[Bret4207]

A while back I went on a 9mm slugging expedition:

Berettas are .358"
S&Ws are .355"
Sigs are .358"
I read Walther P38s are .358"
I read Rugers are .355"

]

918, not trying to be a wise guy, but you I've found it always a good idea to use qualifiers- "Some" or "my" or "the ones I slugged were". I've seen a million guys say it like you did and seems like every time someone comes back and says he's got a Beretta that goes, .359 or a Smith that goes .358. Each gun is a law unto itself and no one makes all their barrels the same year after year.

Just a word of advice from someone who's eaten a lot of crow....:drinks:

[918v]

I thought my first sentence was a qualifier.

[moses]

I have not tried unsized yet, I guess I would have to pan lube some to do that.

[MtGun44]

Definitely what Bret said.

NO consistency in groove diams - ESPECIALLY in 9mm Luger cal, and esp of Euro mfg.

My brother, a moderately experienced reloader, mentioned to me today that "My 9mm loads
for the Beretta (92) hit the target sideways a lot of the time." No time - had to catch
a plane home, but we will run the "slug and fit" drill for his B92, like all 9mms. I told him the
boolits were almost certainly too small.

Bill