Bartering my boolits for reloading supplys ?

[Johnch]

The other night I was aproached by one of the local gunshop owners
He has customers that want some custom cast boolits

He knows about the selling of Boolits needs a liscense
But he wondered if we bartered
In his opion I not be breaking the law
Since I would not be getting any $$

But in the back of my mind , I was thinking even if I didn't get cash
The reloading supplys would have a value
Thus their value would be considered my payment

Am I corect ?
And could get in some trouble if caught ?

I am still thinking of getting the needed liscense
But I hate the quarterly tax , Tax ID and records part if I open a small casting bussniss

John

[Rooster]

Talk to a lawyer.

Having said that I do believe (in the .gov eyes) that the barter items may have intrinsic value and, as such, it is required to be reported if over a certian limint. If it were me and just casting custom for the local shooters..eh, it probably is too small a value to report anyways. Does casting require a special permit from the dark suit boys?

I wonder if trading for backstrap&bones would be considered an income issue? I do love my backstrap and onion soup from the bones!!! Maybe I should call up Perry Mason for a consultation. Hmmmm...

[briang]

I'm not a lawyer, but my gut says it's illegal.

[David2011]

You need a type 10 FFL to legally manufacture and sell ammunition or ammunition components.

David

[David2011]

Oops, sorry, I read my list too fast. A Type 06 is for normal ammunition and components. The type 10 is for armor piercing and destructive devices. It is required for loaded ammunition or components. The license isn't expensive and is easy to get but might bring more scrutiny than you want in this political environment.

David

[runfiverun]

you can give boolits to your buddy's but not trade.
they could at some later time give/loan you something else.

[shotman]

You dont need a license to sell bullets/boolit. Just if you load the whole thing [as reloaded ammo] there is no difference between a bullet and brass, primers ,powder . If its all put in one piece it is loaded ammo. READ the ATF rule. Ithink some posted it a few months back

[Jim]

John,You do like you want, but I would not. If the gummint decides they don't like you, no matter what you tell them, it's gonna be game over. Besides, like David said, waaaaay too much attention to suit me. It just ain't worth a few bucks or a few pieces of merchandise.

Shotman, would you bet your freedom on your advice?

[Jim_Fleming]

Here's a second for this opinion...

Yes, to sell, and to manufacture *ammo* you need a type 6 license, which is what I used to have. But to make cast boolits, I'm reasonably certain you don't. Selling cast boolits for profit, I'm honestly not up to snuff on.

That being said, giving now, and perhaps being given later on, in return, can be argued as gifts among friends.

Lawyers'll tell you don't do it, the Gov't guys'll tell you don't do it. After all, Uncle Sugar INTENDS to get his share of the taxes. (that's what it's really all about, taxes!)

My opinion? You decide.





you can give boolits to your buddy's but not trade.
they could at some later time give/loan you something else.

[jhrosier]

John,

If the shop owner werre to set up some casting equipment in his store then you could make some boolits as his employee. It would be up to him to get the needed licences.

Jack

[Wayne Smith]

John, as I read the rules, to be in the business of manufacturing any component of ammunition requires an 06 license. Not a big deal. To be in the business also requires the collection of the excise tax unless you work something out with your retailer.

The kicker here is "to be in the business" and that needs defining. Generally the courts have decided that this means deriving an income from a process or procedure. "Income" is not limited to cash, although that one is not clearly worked out in the courts to the best of my knowledge. Lots of barter goes on without taxation aross the country and little is being done about it.

I would be very careful simply because the structure of the current law gives one with a cause the ability to go after you on questionable grounds but tie you up and cost you a lot of money in the process. To do this without the basic arrangements of an 06 and tax arrangements would be, in my estimation, simply stupid.

[WILCO]

If you're going to do it, go the legal route and cover all the bases.

[Trey45]

I'm not intentionally trying ti hijack this thread, but I do have a question.
Let's just suppose, in a purely hypothetical situation, that I have a box of 500 cast lead boolits that I've lubrisized, and a buddy of mine has a set of dies. Let's assume the box of boolits and the dies have the same value. If I traded my box of home made boolits for his die set, would I need this type 06 FFL to do this legally? It's a one time trade, not an ongoing venture. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and why the gubbamint feels the need to stick their noses in every aspect of the lives of the American public.

[lylejb]

Trey,
I think a one time trade would not be "in the business", and would be ok.

If you made and sold thousands of boolits per week/ month / year as a source of income you would be "in the business"

I'm not a lawyer, just myopinion.

LB

[S.R.Custom]

...Let's just suppose, in a purely hypothetical situation, that I have a box of 500 cast lead boolits that I've lubrisized, and a buddy of mine has a set of dies. Let's assume the box of boolits and the dies have the same value. If I traded my box of home made boolits for his die set, would I need this type 06 FFL to do this legally? It's a one time trade, not an ongoing venture. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and why the gubbamint feels the need to stick their noses in every aspect of the lives of the American public.

Depends. Did you make the bullets? If so, then you 'manufactured' them, and since you're offering them in what could be construed as 'in the course of business,' then yes, technically you'd need a license. (It could be a difficult task to prove in court that "really Your Honor, it was only this one time.")

And yes, you DO need an 06 (or 07) license to MFR ammunition components and offer them for sale. As for bartering components you made, the federal regs don't specifically include bartering in the regs. But they don't specifically exclude it either, and I'm fairly certain it would be indeed be considered "in the business of" if done in an ongoing manner.

Forget talking to lawyers; they aren't going to be helpful in this situation. My advice as an 07 license holder is to call your local ATF office --they're in the phone book-- and get their thoughts on the matter. Opinions and enforcement priorities vary from region to region; you'll find that they're actually fairly friendly and willing to answer your questions.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm not intentionally trying ti hijack this thread, but I do have a question.
Let's just suppose, in a purely hypothetical situation, that I have a box of 500 cast lead boolits that I've lubrisized, and a buddy of mine has a set of dies. Let's assume the box of boolits and the dies have the same value. If I traded my box of home made boolits for his die set, would I need this type 06 FFL to do this legally? It's a one time trade, not an ongoing venture. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and why the gubbamint feels the need to stick their noses in every aspect of the lives of the American public.

A one time sitation is not being in the trade or realizing an income. To have boolits somebody else made and you modified is not manufacturing. You are safe on both counts.

[runfiverun]

the license is all about the taxes.
you pay the tax on what you manufacturer,not on what you sell.
what you sell comes under sales tax.
the atf are usually helpful, much more so than other agencies.

[madman]

In Utah every thing including the labor is taxable on any trade or sale for retail use . The W6 forms " sale for resale" must be gathered and registered by you as a seller and updated . The tax man cometh every 3 months. There used to be a hobby clause for sales under 1000 bucks a year but the last I heard that hole was closed. If you sell anything in Utah it is subject to taxes.

[Jim_Fleming]

The 'employee' idea, does have some merit. You could (temporarily of course, and the BATFE doesn't need to know about that) sell your casting equipment and lead to the gun shop, go to work for them, paycheck and all that. Then when you're done, you would buy back your casting equipment, (at the same price!) and you'd be all done, etc.

You would .not. want to work as a contractor, because in that case you'd have to have the 06 License.

The only question then would be, does the license of a gun dealer cover the manufacture of the components?

[markshere2]

1. Never ask questions you don't want to hear the answer to.
2. keep it simple
3. put nothing in writing unless you know it will cover YOUR ass.

Ziplock bags of sized lubed boolits can be left for others, and it's nobody's business from where they came.
Don't take written orders and don't fill out invoices or delivery sheets.

What you do for your friends is your business.

[S.R.Custom]

...the license is all about the taxes...

Actually, these days, not so much. Ever since they split the ATF out of the Treasury Department and put it under the purview of the Justice Department, it's not been so much about the money.

However, as a licensee, I still do have to answer to the TTB...

http://www.ttb.gov/tax_audit/taxes.shtml

...but the ATF itself has been much more agreeable since the money has been taken out of their game; they're more concerned with chasing "terrorists" than bill collecting.

[Johnch]

I talked to a lawer today

He said a lot of things
But in simple trems

He said , goods taken in trade can be taxed as income , as by Ohio's rules
They are income or the cash value of the goods
If I trade , barter , sell or profit in any way from the manufacutre of Boolits
I need the liscense

I think I will pass on the whole mess

I had a run in with the IRS a few years ago
Where they messed up and added 3 zeros to my income
It took over 2 years to get them to put it on paper that I didn't owe them back taxs
And take the leins off everything I owned

John

[mroliver77]

John, That 500.000 boolits you bought at that auction a few years back are yours to sell privately. You would prolly even take a loss on them. ;)
Jay

[DLCTEX]

The time I was audited by the IRS I was asked if I had bartered anything. So I think the gov. says barter is income. Also had a friend that had a problem with the state for moving a mobile home in trade for a years rent on a lot. He could do it for free, but trading made it payment and violated the franchise law for mobile home movers. Barter is income.

[jhrosier]

John,

I briefly considered casting to get a bit of money and then reconsidered.
The amount of materials and labor would sell for much less than I would be willing to take.
I think that I could mow lawns for more money and with less work.

Jack

[jonk]

I have occasionally cast up some bullets for board members if they want to try something and I have the mold. But I don't ask for money, just enough to pay shipping and cost outlay, i.e. no profit. I don't make a habit of it either.

[evan price]

First, manufacture of any ammo component for profit or gain requires an '06 FFL. No big deal, that's only $30 for a 3-year license and simple paperwork. Plus you can buy cheaper bulk primers and stuff.

What REALLY will screw you over is that as an '06 making any ammo component you are required to register with the US State Department as a "Producer of War Materials for Export"- even though lead boolits are not technically "war" materials, and you don't plan on "exporting" anything. The registration costs $2250.00 a year- AND UP, and that does not include the cost of an export license or taxes, or make any allowance if you make one boolit or a thousand. This process is called "DDTC-ITAR".

http://progunleaders.org/DDTC/

Persons who make their own components for their own use are exempt from ITAR but sell one home-made boolit and you are on the hook. US State Dept. discovered that they have great latitude in how they derive their funding and how they enforce their own rules, so they decided to get "tough".

Truly sucks in America, but that's par for the course.

[mtnman31]

Good grief, it is sad that we are so paranoid about the government's prying eyes and the posibility of litigation that a guy has to be concerned over a trade. If I were in your shoes I'd have no problems making a few bullets to trade for goods. If it was more than that, i.e. thousands of bullets for "customers" placing orders and using invoices, then sure I'd start looking into the '06. Personally I think that the government has much bigger things to take care of than a couple of guys trading some sporting goods back and forth. A comparison might be your friendly card game - isn't it technically, illegal for a group to gather and gamble without a gaming license? Are a couple guys playing cards with pocket change going to have the goverment hovering outside their house in black choppers with SWAT teams busting down the doors? Not likely, but take it to the next level and sure it might raise an eyebrow or two if you have two dozen people paying entry fees and gambling thousands of dollars.

Each guy is entitled to make his own decisions but for me, I'd have no problems making some bullets for a guy and trading. I don't know what level or volume of trading John is considering but if it is small there is nothing to worry about.

If people aren't comfortable trading bullets we should probably shut down the "Bullet Exchange" in the swapping and selling section, because we are manufacturing bullets with the intent of trading or selling them to others. I will now turn down the volume of my rant... sorry.

[Wayne Smith]

First, manufacture of any ammo component for profit or gain requires an '06 FFL. No big deal, that's only $30 for a 3-year license and simple paperwork. Plus you can buy cheaper bulk primers and stuff.

What REALLY will screw you over is that as an '06 making any ammo component you are required to register with the US State Department as a "Producer of War Materials for Export"- even though lead boolits are not technically "war" materials, and you don't plan on "exporting" anything. The registration costs $2250.00 a year- AND UP, and that does not include the cost of an export license or taxes, or make any allowance if you make one boolit or a thousand. This process is called "DDTC-ITAR".

http://progunleaders.org/DDTC/

Persons who make their own components for their own use are exempt from ITAR but sell one home-made boolit and you are on the hook. US State Dept. discovered that they have great latitude in how they derive their funding and how they enforce their own rules, so they decided to get "tough".

Truly sucks in America, but that's par for the course.

This was not mentioned to me when I got my 06 nor when I renewed it. I have had no communication concerning it at all. Yes, I do get their updates, both on my 03 and 06 licenses.

[nascarkent]

Its just BIG BROTHER lookin out for ya!:neutral:

[jhrosier]

.... Personally I think that the government has much bigger things to take care of than a couple of guys trading some sporting goods back and forth. ....

Maybe this is so where you live.

Here in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts, any violation of any firearms related law is an instant and permanent disqualification for firearms ownership (yes, that includes muzzleloaders too.)

The state's attourneys wake up every day just hoping to stick it big time to any licence holder for any reason.

All permits and licences are at the complete discretion of the issuing authority and even being charged with a violation is enough to earn a disqualification and/or licence revocation, even if the charges are later dismissed or dropped.

Also, a revocation of a firearms licence is a matter of public record and will follow you for life, even if you move to another state.

Plenty of reasons to be a little cautious, unless you happen to live in a free country.

Jack

[sundog]

That's a very sad dissertation, jhrosier. Especially from a place that gave us the Pilgrims, Plymouth Rock, and the Mayflower Compact. The Boston Tea Party. Bunker Hill. The Boston Massacre. Paul Revere's ride. And so many of our PATRIOTS and FOUNDING FATHERS AND MOTHERS.

Who hijacked the ship?

[Lead Fred]

In America, if you make it in the state, and sell it in the state, the federal laws should not apply.

It crosses no interstate lines.

We all know thats not how it works. But it should

I have no problem selling bullets or loaded ammo to others in my state.

I lose no sleep at night

and I know who Im selling to, they wont lose any sleep either

[jhrosier]

That's a very sad dissertation, jhrosier. Especially from a place that gave us the Pilgrims, Plymouth Rock, and the Mayflower Compact. The Boston Tea Party. Bunker Hill. The Boston Massacre. Paul Revere's ride. And so many of our PATRIOTS and FOUNDING FATHERS AND MOTHERS.


Sad indeed. We are now saying that liberty started and ended here.



Who hijacked the ship?

The laws here were actually pretty reasonable, until literally in the dead of night, a great steaming pile of antigun legislation was pushed thru the state house as "emergency legislation."
A challenge to the laws was mishandled and thrown out of court and it was too late to mount anther challenge. Massachusetts is a defacto one party state, run largely by liberal moonbats. Even if all of the active shooters and sportsmen could be counted on for support, they wouldn't amount to a yellow hole in the snow.

If there are any free states left and I am somehow able to retire in a few more years, moving will be an option. It frankly does not look good though, on either count.

Jack

[waksupi]

You would be a danged poor outlaw, if you can't figure this one out.