No reloads for self defense? [Archive]

2ndAmendmentNut

08-06-2009, 12:05 AM

Johnch

08-06-2009, 12:43 AM

I am a freind of a local judge , I hunt and shoot with him

He recomends that we carry the nasty'est factory ammo we can find
Expect for Win Black Talon , to much bad press

That way if by chance I have to use my carry gun
And the family of the SOB I shot sue's me for what ever
No anti gun lawer could argue I loaded that nasty ammo just to kill
I could just say , that is what the gunshop had

He said he knows of several times the family of the bad guy
Sued the person defending themselves
He didn't think any got any $
But at least 1 case he knew of had to be apealed by the good guy
After a jury awarded big $$ to the family of the bad guy

He said even if you win , you are out lawer fees

John

Lee

08-06-2009, 12:44 AM

You heard correct. The lawyers for the poor persecuted misunderstood Chicago Thug Politician, (oops I mean villian) will go after you with whatever they can. So will the Demoncratic DA's looking to advance to a cushy gubmint appointment.
They will use the arguments you have already talked about.

I'll kill the '**** and take my chances. I don't care if I have to use a shovel. I'm too old and too tired of seeing this country slide down the toilet with that feel-good PC slurping sound being promoted by the idiots bent on destroying this country and my rights.

YMMV........................Lee

Lee

08-06-2009, 12:47 AM

I'd rather be out lawyer fees(besides the Big O will entitle me!) than be out my life. If the **** is takin' your TV, probably best to let him go. You can always get another TV. (AS MUCH AS I HATE TO SAY THAT!!!)
If you are in fear for your life?...well, I already told you what I'd do.............

Marlin Hunter

08-06-2009, 12:58 AM

No reloads for self defense?

Besides being more reliable, the ammo companies have larger wallets and better lawyers. If you shot someone with one of your own concoctions and it goes through the person and into someone else in another house, it's your fault. Buy something from an American company that advertises "defense" on their ammunition. Stay away from "Law Enforcement," "Hunting," and "Military" rounds. (That doesn't leave you with much.)

See if you can find some articles by Masad Ayob (sp) on the internet. He writes very good information about firearm deference.

Esau

08-06-2009, 01:28 AM

mike in co

08-06-2009, 01:31 AM

whaaa whaaaa whaaa...

lots of internet "facts" but no real facts behind the rumor mongoring.

just people saying what if.....

not one trial, not one charge, not one suite........

while i have some factory rounds, most of my self defense ammo is simply my loads of xtp's and golden sabers.

tho the 44 mag carbine is cast boolits, soon to be cast hp's.

mike in co

mike in co

08-06-2009, 01:41 AM

No reloads for self defense?

A friend warned me about using reloads for self defense. When I asked why he just said something about factory ammo being more reliable.

After he left I did some thinking (scary right). My reloads are just as reliable as factory, but could there be another reason not to use reloads? Maybe a lawyer saying something like I really meant to kill the rapist because I had made special rape stopper rounds? I will appreciate your thoughts and input on this topic.

P.S. Sorry if this thread is in the wrong spot feel free to move.

yes you did mean to kill him...there is no such thing as pulling a gun to wound someone....the criteria is deadly force is required becasue he has threatened me, my family, and this was the correct response.
more to worry about witnesses.
make loud verbal warnings..... STOP OR I WILL SHOOT...PUT THE GUN/KNIFE/CLUB DOWN OR I WILL SHOOT.....

mtnman31

08-06-2009, 01:42 AM

Fiddlesticks, I don't worry about the PC way to defend myself. I'm with Lee, I'll take my chances with a lawyer. Bottom line is that I'll use whatever I can get to in a life or death situation. "Sir, it was dark and I just grabbed the first thing I could." I am not going to spend much time worrying about whether I should load up this bullet or that one when my life is in peril. I am going to use whatever is at hand, be it some of my home-cast hollow points, a factory 22lr or the Mameluke sword hanging on my wall.

I also think that any reloader worth his salt can develop a load just as reliable as any factory round. One thing to consider - you need to hit what you aim at and to do that you need practice. Personally, I can't afford to practice with factory "personal defense" rounds. Reloads allow me to practice and my reloads are completely reliable. I'd feel more comfortable using my relaods than a factory load that I am not familiar with.

Bob Krack

08-06-2009, 05:48 AM

Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

I keep my Mossberg 500 loaded with handloaded hardcast #0 buck just in case of coyote attacks on the chicken house. If'n my house is attacked, I guess the #0 buck will just have to do!

Bob

Tom W.

08-06-2009, 06:06 AM

MtJerry

08-06-2009, 06:19 AM

as long as you have met the conditions for using deadly force according to your state statutes, you can use a bazooka and still be within the law.

Massad Ayoob is a boob ....

JIMinPHX

08-06-2009, 07:18 AM

Bret4207

08-06-2009, 07:41 AM

I read an article about that recently. In summary, a man's wife shot herself, with his gun, loaded with his reloads. He tried to stop her. So, The Prosecution assumed, he tried to kill her and just wanted to make it look like suicide. If the court had allowed the remaining reloads to be used for powder burn tests, they could have determined how close the gun was to her head, when it went off. Somehow that could have proven him innocent. Unfortunately, the court would not allow them to be used, because they were "evidence." Of course, if he'd been keeping his home defense gun loaded with factory ammunition, the court would have accepted some from the same lot, from the factory.

His lawyers advice on the matter was a little different. She thought his mistake was talking to the police, because they had used the story he gave the police, when they arrived on the scene, to try him over and over again, until they finally got him locked up for a few years.

This is the ONLY case I'm aware of where handloads played a factor, and in truth, this guy must have had the worst attorney in the world. There is no way a good attorney would have let this slide, no way. Instant appeal.

Massad Ayoob, a professional witness and writer, started this train of thought as near as I can tell and it's a shame he did. I can assure anyone reading this in no uncertain terms that if you shoot someone your life, as you know it, will end. You will be sued no matter what you use. You may well be arrested even if it's clear self defense. In my state every shooting goes before a Grand Jury. What ammo you use will be one of the very minor points, if it even comes up. No matter what you use it'll be portrayed as a tool made for killing and that's all there is to it.

I'd worry much less about the handloads/factory question and be far more concerned with familiarizing myself with my states self defense laws.

3006guns

08-06-2009, 08:06 AM

I have to agree with Bret.........besides, a simple ballistic test using the same components should prove that the load falls within accepted parameters. It would be easy to prove that cast boolits are a money saving feature and not some whoopie-do special home concocted "man killer". In other words, a widely accepted hobby with set standards.

I wonder how the attorneys would argue the bad guy being shot with, say, a flintlock of about .69 caliber? Talk about a wound channel. "Members of the jury...it's what was available at the time.................."

My defense (as if I needed one) would be that I don't trust the reliablility of FACTORY ammo, therefore I use my knowledge and skill to produce a RELIABLE round....not neccesarily one of greater power. I really don't care if the attorney produces a long history of factory reliablility...all I have to do is state that I have had factory ammo fail on occasion and refused to trust my life to a product not directly manufactured under my supervision. I don't have the right to defend my life with the most reliable ammo I can get????

redneckdan

08-06-2009, 08:13 AM

Fortunately, Michigan has adopted the castle doctrine, part of our law states that if the victim who defends their self is not convicted in a criminal trial then they also are protected from civil suits for the same incident.

yes you did mean to kill him...there is no such thing as pulling a gun to wound someone....

No and yes....the only reason for a weapon to be unholstered in a confrontation is when deadly force is to be applied. However, we do not 'shoot to kill' we 'shoot to stop'. If the guy running at us with a knife stops after one hit from a squib .380 and lays on the ground cryin'...we stop shooting....if he keeps coming we keep shooting.

softpoint

08-06-2009, 09:02 AM

As far as I know, here in Texas, if you are justified in the use of the deadly force, there is no questioning WHAT you used.
This advice not to use reloads is something that was started by Massad Ayoob, and I have tried to find any info where it was used against someone. He may have been refering to a particular place, NYC comes to mind, defending yourself is a risky situation there, and Chicago, from what I hear. Most places are not like that, though. I have reloads in my carry guns most of the time.
I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't carry handloaded ammo, I just don't think it makes any difference in most places.:drinks:

badgeredd

08-06-2009, 09:20 AM

redneckdan has it completely correct as to Michigan law. When I took the state required training for my Concealed Weapon Permit, I asked the instructor (a local police officer) about the reload issue and also if the number of shots fired had any bearing on the investigation.

He stated that unless the reload was something out there (cut-off brass wire to act as buckshot/shrapnel for instance) it had no bearing on the incident. The shooting WOULD be investigated as to whether it was a justified shooting. The number of shots made were immaterial, as long as the perp was attacking which would be evaluated. One cannot fire again after the IMMEDIATE threat has passed. Obviously, good sense has to be applied. He also said that one was obviously using deadly force with ANY firearm so reloads weren't a factor. Thank God for the passage of the Castle Doctrine!!!! That law definitely takes SOME of the worry out of defending myself.

As stated above, knowledge of ones state law is imperative, as is the use of one's weapon.

Edd

Rocky Raab

08-06-2009, 09:28 AM

HeavyMetal

08-06-2009, 09:38 AM

Yes Ayoob started this years ago in an article in Handgunner, think it was filler, I've heard he's taken as lot of flak over the years for this and has gotten to the point he will abruptly change the subject if persued these days.

I think it's some "out of the box" thinking to be sure but real world problem? I don't think so!

Let me pose a question: you are forced to shoot someone in self defense, you do the right thing and call "The Man"!

The usual process occurs, evidence is taken. HOW DO THEY KNOW THE AMMO IS A RELOAD?

HOW DO THEY KNOW YOU RELOADED IT?

I have made ammo for my 1911 with JACKETED bullets and Speer case's that you cannot tell are reloads from a visual inspection. I think if you don't tell them they will never think to look!

Ayoob's theory is "Smoke and Mirrows" to sell a product, himself.

cheese1566

08-06-2009, 09:49 AM

1874Sharps

08-06-2009, 10:00 AM

When I renewed my CHL here in South Texas several years ago it was taught by a retired Texas Ranger who offered the perspective of a seasoned law enforcement officer on the subject of a defensive shooting:

1. There will be a grand jury investigation and the justified shooting will be treated as a potential crime.

2. You can have done everything lawfully and as a "reasonable person" would have done them but say the wrong words to the investigating officer and then be charged with a crime. If you say you "shot to kill" rather than you "shot to stop" the criminal, you will likely be prosecuted.

3. There are unscrupulous prosecuting attorneys (no surprise here) that will do their best to find some angle by which they can prosecute a gun owner and thus promote their personal anti-gun liberal assault on the 2nd Ammendment.

As SOFTPOINT stated here in Texas we have the "Castle Doctrine" law that makes things alot easier on the law abiding citizen that finds himself in the unfortunate position of having to use lethal force to stop a thug. Such a citizen cannot be sued by the thug or the thug's survivors (WAHOO!!!). There is no protection, though, against the rogue prosecutor. This is why I choose to load with factory ammo since I do not want to give a thug lawyer an angle to come up against me. I can certainly load adequate and maybe even superior ammo compared to factory ammo, but I will try to avoid a costly legal showdown if I can.

SOFTPOINT: I love your town! My oldest son went to A&M and my wife and I found ourselves in AGGIELAND regularly. I was always impressed by the politeness of the campus and the town. WHOOP!!!

Bret4207

08-06-2009, 10:02 AM

There may or may not be trial precedent for the "handloads versus factory" argument.

Use what you think best, but if you use factory, you won't BE that precedent.

Massad Ayoob is a recognized court authority on firearms and self-defense. I don't think any of us here are. That pretty much settles who to trust on this issue.

I've asked him outright to settle this question and he ducked the issue along with another issue he commonly brings up. He's a writer and a professional witness, and while I enjoy his writing I don't trust him anymore than I trust any other writer. He may be a wonderful guy and a great shot, but he won't back up some of the stuff he's written. Just because he's a well known author doesn't give him anymore authority or credence than anyone else. I can guarantee that if he was a professional witness against gun owners we'd all be doubting his claims.

Storydude

08-06-2009, 10:07 AM

108.22 subsection 2
"Nothing herein shall be constrained to prevent the use of Said firearm(s) in the defense of persons or property within the XXXXXXX City Limits."

Adam10mm

08-06-2009, 10:08 AM

You seriously think every single shooting is CSI and they analyze the living hell out of spent casings of every shooting? Nope. This is the real world, not TV.

Asked the local prosecutor about handloads before. He said any prosecutor that uses that in a trial against someone should be stripped of their license to practice law.

FN in MT

08-06-2009, 10:12 AM

I did 32 years in LE and have been around a few shootings where the ammo in the gun was handloaded and not factory ammo. That fact has never really been an issue. But...Montana isn't liability suit happy like NJ, NY,CA etc.

The ONLY time the fact that it was a handload even came up in Court was when a lightly loaded .45 acp 230 lead RN slug failed to penetrate into a guys skull.......instead it went under the skin......followed the contour of his skull and stopped several inches later. The crux of the testimony was had this been a Factory rd at 860 fps instead of 500 fps the guy would probably be DEAD, not injured.

And that the shooter WOULD HAVE killed the guy....and INTENDED to kill the guy.....the only thing that PREVENTED the death was the ammo wasn't up to it. The Prosecution wanted to give the shooter some real jail time and was trying to impress upon the Judge and Jurors that this would have been a homicde and not an assault had it not been for the weak ammo.

Regarding the Massad Ayoob deal and handloads. I used to read his articles years back, but always was amazed how a RESERVE Officer with a small NH Police Dept with IIRC 5 or 6 Officers.....got all that experience and knew so much??

FN in MT

mike in co

08-06-2009, 10:52 AM

I've asked him outright to settle this question and he ducked the issue along with another issue he commonly brings up. He's a writer and a professional witness, and while I enjoy his writing I don't trust him anymore than I trust any other writer. He may be a wonderful guy and a great shot, but he won't back up some of the stuff he's written. Just because he's a well known author doesn't give him anymore authority or credence than anyone else. I can guarantee that if he was a professional witness against gun owners we'd all be doubting his claims.

and yet again bret and i agree...is that twice this century ??

mike in co

Heavy lead

08-06-2009, 10:57 AM

Best defense for a self defense shooting would be...................well nevermind.

I'll use if I need to whatever I have stoked. Factory ammunition is for the gun writers who don't have to buy the stuff, I shoot what I practice with, I practice with what I reload. I do a better job than the factory anyway.

Just pistol whip them, then it won't matter.

mike in co

08-06-2009, 11:05 AM

Fortunately, Michigan has adopted the castle doctrine, part of our law states that if the victim who defends their self is not convicted in a criminal trial then they also are protected from civil suits for the same incident.

No and yes....the only reason for a weapon to be unholstered in a confrontation is when deadly force is to be applied. However, we do not 'shoot to kill' we 'shoot to stop'. If the guy running at us with a knife stops after one hit from a squib .380 and lays on the ground cryin'...we stop shooting....if he keeps coming we keep shooting.

yes and no....

one does not take one shot in a deadly threat confontation....2 -3 shots and evaluated the threat....no such thing as one shot with a 380...a min of three...maybe 4 or 5...it is KNOWN as a min stopper. and yes i will have all shots off BEFORE he hits the ground.

if you wait to see the effect of one shot you are likely to become a victim.

one threat, one weapon: 2 to the body, one to the head and evaluate the threat.

ever heard of the theroy of thirds ?? shoot one third of your ammo, one third for follow up, and one third in reserve. on a revolver this means 2's, but in a semi anto...it can be 5's. in a 1911 i'd go 3/2/2, 3/3/2 in a 8, 4/3/3 in my cz97b 45acp.

mike in co

mike in co

08-06-2009, 11:16 AM

"The usual process occurs, evidence is taken. HOW DO THEY KNOW THE AMMO IS A RELOAD?
HOW DO THEY KNOW YOU RELOADED IT?
I have made ammo for my 1911 with JACKETED bullets and Speer case's that you cannot tell are reloads from a visual inspection. I think if you don't tell them they will never think to look!"

That is because the "MAN" will seize the gun, spent casings, and ammunition. The "MAN" will then forward it to a forensic firearm criminalist for analysis. Plus the totality of the circumstances that will be produced during the entire investigation, including possible search warrants on your home and vehicles and finding of reloading equipment and no box of factory ammo that was used in your gun.

My two cents,,

the gun will be empty when the police FINALLY arrive. i will have retreived my spent casings. i will not offer any evidence to the police nor the prosecutor. i will keep my mouth shut and ask for an ONMYGAWD lawyer. a search warrant requires the belief that some specific evidence is with in my home. if i keep my mouth shut...what are they looking for ?

quit watching so much tv.

mike in co

fishhawk

08-06-2009, 11:25 AM

lets put it this way. "your honor i object to facts not in evidence there is no evedince that the "supposed" reloads are any more lethal than factory loaded ammo." any good defence lawyer would be screaming his lungs out. steve k

largom

08-06-2009, 11:25 AM

Living in the country is different than living in the city or a development. If my life is in danger I will use whatever to defend myself and the result would be fatal to the aggresser. I would then dig a deep hole with my back-hoe. End of problem.
Larry

Adam10mm

08-06-2009, 11:39 AM

yes and no....

one does not take one shot in a deadly threat confontation....2 -3 shots and evaluated the threat....no such thing as one shot with a 380...a min of three...maybe 4 or 5...it is KNOWN as a min stopper. and yes i will have all shots off BEFORE he hits the ground.

if you wait to see the effect of one shot you are likely to become a victim.

one threat, one weapon: 2 to the body, one to the head and evaluate the threat.

ever heard of the theroy of thirds ?? shoot one third of your ammo, one third for follow up, and one third in reserve. on a revolver this means 2's, but in a semi anto...it can be 5's. in a 1911 i'd go 3/2/2, 3/3/2 in a 8, 4/3/3 in my cz97b 45acp.

mike in co
Nothing in a gunfight is simple.

I've spoken with many people that have been in gunfights. Most of them have been heavily trained. None of them shot in a cadence. Most said whenever the front sight covered their assailant, they pulled the trigger. A few said they missed the second shot because their assailant fell dead to the first one quicker than they could realign the sights on them. One took a constant barrage of .45 ACP to the upper torso from a SIG 220 and kept coming. Only when the officer pushed a 4 inch blade from his jaw to the handle did he stop attacking and slump to the ground.

I know of no training school that trains to shoot in a cadence. I've never heard of the rule of thirds. I've heard of shoot as often as you can acquire sights on your target and as much as it takes to stop them from harming others or yourself.

HORNET

08-06-2009, 11:40 AM

Don't need a backhoe when you live near a hog farm........

Russel Nash

08-06-2009, 11:40 AM

^^^ instantly digging your heels in and NOT cooperating with police will probably result in you getting the cuffs slapped on you and you getting placed in the back of a cruiser and taken "down town". You might then have to bail or bound out.

What's that saying....you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar?

There are ways of sneakily "resisting" any sort of questioning or interrogation that could reduce your chances of the cops automatically placing you in the guilty category.

As far as Mas Ayoob goes, he is a paid author for the gun periodicals. In essence, he is a shil for gun, gear, and ammo manufacturers. He says what he gets paid to say... or whatever he can get free gear from.

He is good at self promotion.

That said, if I was ever involved in what I thought was a righteous self-defense shoot I would do whatever it would take monetarily wise to get Ayoob to be an expert witness in my corner. I think just the mere mention of his name would get some prosecutors/DA's to think twice about going forward with their case.

I think the best course of action that I have read in this thread and on other internet forums is to figure out whatever it is ammo-wise that the local cops are using, and buy that. The argument being that if such an encounter were to happen you used ammo that was no more or no less lethal than the ammo that your municipality bought for their cops. Hey, if it's good enough for the cops, it should be good enough for you, right?

Lastly, ever since that Duke "rape" case, I will never, ever underestimate how people would stoop so low in an effort to move themselves up the political or career ladder. There was a case in California about two feuding neighbors. It had aired on Dateline. I was absolutely fuming about how Dateline portrayed the guy who was later convicted of Murder 1 and Murder 2. I did a little more digging, and read somewhere that the DA in the case was trying to use a DVD on self-defense that they found when they searched his home as proof that he had pre-meditated the whole thing.

<sigh>

Just expect everything that you have ever said or done up to that point of the shooting to get twisted around and used against. If you do, you won't be disappointed.

Treeman

08-06-2009, 11:57 AM

The one anti-handload argument that has a tiny bit of logic and validity is that balistic testing on factory rounds may be a stronger argument to reenforce your claims about distances involved if they are challenged. If I shoot someone it will be because I am convinced that I NEED to shoot them. I go armed to be prepared for evil in the world but I don't fret over it. Likewise I am prepared to shoot someone if I NEED to shoot them but I am not fretting about the aftermath. Rule one-Survive or die trying. After that the minor matters need to stay in perspective. Part of the prevalence of evil and violence in our society is due to namby pamby fretting by good people about what someone else is going to do for/to/about every decision they make. Prepare, yes, but responsible people deal with things as they come. I want my firearms to work when I need them. I refuse to fret over what anyone else thinks of the arms' appearance or ammunition.

Char-Gar

08-06-2009, 12:29 PM

This topic just won't seem to go away. Among other things I held a Texas Law License for 35 years and once upon a time practiced Tort law. I also practiced criminal defense law and also prosecuted for several years. I have discussed this topic with various lawyers and judges and the universal opinion is the "don't use handloads because of liability reasons" is boggus.

The theory is the use of handloads will show a state of mind that wants to kill and kill better. A killer, gun crazed state of mind.

If..just if..a prosecutor wanted show a gun crazed state of mind, he/she could ask you the following questions or introduce evidence by other means as ti tge following. But they won't as the only issue facing the judge and jury is the facts and circumstances of the shooting. In a criminal case, the questions is, ..Was the shooting justified under the law? In a civil case, the question is..Was the shooter negligent in his actions?

1. Do you read gun magazines and if so how many over your lifetime?
2. Do you belong to any web sites that deal with reloading and shooting?
3. Do you reload your own ammo?
4. Do you make your own bullets?
5. How many brass cases do you have at your house?
6. How much gunowder do you have at your house?
7. How many primers do you have at your house?
8. How many rounds do you fire in the average year?
9. How many guns to you own?
10.. etc. etc. etc. on and on and on!

You could of course not take the stand and invoke your 5th ammendment rights, but that is dumb if it is a righteous shooting.

Jurors are instructed that the failure of the defendant to take the stand is a right and is not indicitive of guilt....but the average juror still thinks that if a person is innocent he will say so nd tell his side of the story.

The long and short of it all, is the use or non-use of handloads in a shooting is of such minor importance as to be non-important.

I doubt if this foolishness will never be put to rest as it gets new life over and over again. It is worse than Jason in Friday the 13th for coming back to life.

Now there are so good reasons to use factory ammo (R and D behind them, plus reliability) but liability is not one of them.

Houndog

08-06-2009, 12:46 PM

Tennessee also has the castle doctorine AND if a shooting is deemed proper, there's NO civil recourse for the perp! Whatever you use, be it reloads, factory, or a 50 BMG has absolutely no bearing in the shooting. We also have a fairly low threshold of what is a justifiable shooting. You must feel your life or someone else is in emminent danger. It's that simple! We've had 2 burglers shot in my town in the last 2 days. One was an occupied home invasion, and the other was a breakin of a neighbors house. The first was a clear justifiable shooting, (we DO NOT have to retreat as in some other States) and the second, the perp made the mistake of trying to assault the person trying to stop the burglary. No charges were filed in either case, and both perps wound up dead. Burglary IS a VERY risky profession where I live!

StarMetal

08-06-2009, 01:05 PM

If you used all the factory components to assemble ammo that looks exactly like the factory ammo of the same manufacture, how would they know they were reloaded? That brings up another question...if the components are new, meaning never used/fired, are they considered "reloaded"?

I agree with Bret if you shoot someone your life is changed forever.

"Terrible thing to kill a man, Kid, you take everything he has and everything he's ever going to have"

Joe

softpoint

08-06-2009, 01:52 PM

I wasn't being critical of Mas Ayoob, (not on that topic, anyway) because I honestly do not remember if he ever said that the issue had been brought up in court , or if it COULD at some point be brought up. I think he was probably trying to look out for the best interests of gun owners, but again, no need to fix a problem that doesn't exist. (unless your the federal govt.). He is the one I'm pretty sure, that started the debate.
Istill enjoy reading his writing,
I sometimes carry Keith SWC in my .44 Mountain gun or my 310Lee's in my 4 inch redhawk here on the ranch, I think if I have to defend myself here at home, since I live in a rural area, it may very well be against someone trying to shoot at me from a vehicle. Ive seen most auto pistol rounds fail to penetrate car bodies or glass well. Hardcast .44 Magnum could make a car a very uncomfortable place to be. The auto pistols are better in other circumstances. Use what you are confident will protect your life, and your loved ones lives.:drinks:

Crash_Corrigan

08-06-2009, 03:30 PM

We we issued Remington 158 GR LSWC rounds which did not ovepenetrate nor richochet too much. They also did not stop guys with felony shoes on. I had a reloading friend take department issue rounds and upgrade the loading so I was getting 1000 FPS instead!

Of course there was a price to pay. Increased velocity meant increased recoil and muzzle blast and some difficulty in rapid reloading. The rapid reloading was not a problem since I always carried a NY reload. A second revolver loaded and ready to go on left ankle. I also kept a speedloaded filled with authentic empty casings from issue ammo so I could submit those as the ones I had fired instead of the reloaded ones. The tricky part was to be able to get enuf trigger time on these reloads to be able to handle them WTSHTF.

The second part was witnesses. These reloads had a different sound and put out a large muzzle blast when used. One time I got into a firefight and my partner was using the standard NYCPD ammo. Other cops later told me that it was like he was using a .22 and I was using a 12 bore shotgun. It worked out OK but I was sweating it out for a while. I kept my mouth shut and no one got wise to my deception but these rounds certainly did work better than standard department fodder.

I would not hesitate to use my reloads today in my CCW guns. I have practiced with them and I know what they do and how to shoot them and get the results I want. I cannot afford to practice with rounds that cost upwards of $2.00 apiece and expect to get any type of results. I load a round for my .45 that achieves 1100 FPS and throws a 185 solid copper bullet with extreme accuracy. With my .38's I am getting 1000 FPS and a 145 GR Winchester Silver Tip that will group at 1 1/2" at 25 yds out of a 586 Smith with a 6 inch tube.

I recently got a Charter Arms Patriot 327 Federal Magnum and I believe that this gun has a lot going for it. I look forward to making up some cast boolits for it and to also try and achieve a good level of accuracy with it.

I agree with Bret about Masaad Ayoob. I believe he is a self proclaimed expert with minimal LE experience but is a good writer and has been given a lot more credit than he deserves. As I cast and assemble probably near 10,000 rounds yearly and also fire them I also could call myself an expert in the field.

I doubt that he has been in as many firefights as I and I know that his arrest record will not stand up to mine.

Adam10mm

08-06-2009, 03:41 PM

Ayoob, to my knowledge, has never been in a gun fight.

Rocky Raab

08-06-2009, 03:59 PM

Adam10mm

08-06-2009, 04:22 PM

Mr Ayoob's experience with actual gunfights is immaterial to his legal knowledge. You wouldn't decline an expert surgeon if he'd never been operated on himself, would you?
Terrible analogy. [smilie=b:

Finally, I am also a gun writer. I am not a shill for anybody, nor is any other gun writer I know. That's an insulting comment far below the expected behavior of this board.
Most writers are honest and speak with experience. Ayoob is not. Time and time again he has shown his misunderstanding of the rules of evidence as well as his flamboyant twists and turns he adds to a story. His credibility is shot, yet he is put on a pedestal. only in a few minds is he an expert in anything.

exile

08-06-2009, 04:50 PM

Sorry to hear about the guy with the Kimber 10mm. Given my druthers, my choice for self-defense would be .357 Sig for myself, .327 Federal for my wife. The .357 Sig is loaded with reloads as I write this. On top of that, NE has no "castle doctrine". I am required to retreat under less than ideal conditions, while all the bad guy has to do is advance and pull the trigger. And I hate to be a wimp, but I cannot think of a worse fate than being in prison.

exile

shooterg

08-06-2009, 05:26 PM

The prosecution in the Harold Fish case made a big deal out of the 10mm auto and hollow point ammo he used. Said it was "excessively powerful" and was evidence of pre-meditation to kill.
He may yet get off, but he's already a half-million in the hole.

Bret4207

08-06-2009, 06:07 PM

I believe the charges against Fish have been dropped, the DA declined to re-try him last I heard.

Bret4207

08-06-2009, 06:20 PM

A couple points:

I DID say to use whatever you choose to. But don't expect to have no consequences for that decision. There will be serious ones, and no smug drivel about being tried or carried will change that.

Mr Ayoob's experience with actual gunfights is immaterial to his legal knowledge. You wouldn't decline an expert surgeon if he'd never been operated on himself, would you?

Finally, I am also a gun writer. I am not a shill for anybody, nor is any other gun writer I know. That's an insulting comment far below the expected behavior of this board.

Ayoobs experience is what he bases his articles on. Everything he writes is based on his knowledge and experience, same as any other writer. If he were to present himself as a survivor of numerous gunfights ( I don't know that he ever has done that) then he should be able to back it up. Same for any other opinion he offers. He's been asked about the handloads issue and refuses to offer evidence to back up his claim. What he needs to say is, "IN MY OPINION....." , but that isn't what he did. He made the statement numerous times that you would be leaving yourself open to problems and IIRC said at least once in print that there was case law to back it up. This was some years back, in the late 1990's IIRC and it's been a point of contention since then.

As far as gun writers not being salesmen for the companies, I'm glad to hear you aren't. There are many others who can't make the same claim. I've been taken to task by other gun writers on internet sites when I disagreed with them and have even been told that since one guy "...was a published author..." his knowledge naturally exceeded mine. He was wrong, I proved him wrong and he ate crow. I will stand by my claim that being a gun writer doesn't make a guy a genius, it just puts him in a position where what he said and claims is open to discussion. Need I mention Elmers 600 yard running deer shot?

Adam10mm

08-06-2009, 06:26 PM

My favorite two writers are Layne Simpson and the Duke.

zxcvbob

08-06-2009, 06:37 PM

If you used all the factory components to assemble ammo that looks exactly like the factory ammo of the same manufacture, how would they know they were reloaded?Because I shoot a .380, and there is no factory .380 ammo and hasn't been for months. (I'm being sarcastic, but there's a point in there somewhere I'm just not sure what it is. [smilie=f:

Adam10mm

08-06-2009, 07:01 PM

Just loaded and sold 4 cases of .380 last week. Another batch of components for 4 more cases will be here next week. Business as usual.

redneckdan

08-06-2009, 07:08 PM

Mike...man....yer missing the forest for the trees. I used the the 'squib .380' (ie the round did not fire at peak performance) example because of the fact that realisticlly it would be less likely to result in a one shot stop. Now if I had said one shot from .460 smith and wesson someone might have said 'well duh, half the dude's chest is on the ground behind him". The caliber is not the point. The point is that we do not 'shoot to kill' rather we 'shoot to stop'. The guy in my first example; say he is on the ground screaming bloody hell. As long as he is not reaching for or deploying a weapon we do not shoot him again. If he is acting in a manner that constitutes a direct hazard to us, ie deploying a BUG, then obviously he is still a threat and we keep shooting until he knocks that crap off. Never did I say multiple rounds were a bad idea, nor did I say shoot one round and evaluate the situation. Once you start shooting keep shooting until the threat stops.

yes and no....

one does not take one shot in a deadly threat confontation....2 -3 shots and evaluated the threat....no such thing as one shot with a 380...a min of three...maybe 4 or 5...it is KNOWN as a min stopper. and yes i will have all shots off BEFORE he hits the ground.

if you wait to see the effect of one shot you are likely to become a victim.

one threat, one weapon: 2 to the body, one to the head and evaluate the threat.

ever heard of the theroy of thirds ?? shoot one third of your ammo, one third for follow up, and one third in reserve. on a revolver this means 2's, but in a semi anto...it can be 5's. in a 1911 i'd go 3/2/2, 3/3/2 in a 8, 4/3/3 in my cz97b 45acp.

mike in co

WildmanJack

08-06-2009, 07:24 PM

Many, many years ago I was a young cop in NJ. Went in to the Village ( Greenwich Village) and stopped at the local precint, can't remember the number now, Tried to turn in my gun, they said, Hell man you'll probably need it more than us. I re-holstered and left. A few hours later I walked out of a club and a police officer was taking aim at a car that was firing shots at him. I drew my weapon, at that time a 2 1/2" Colt Python, and let go at the car with .38+p ammo. The poor NYPD cop had boolets bounching off the rear window, mine, didn't. He looked at me and said, what the hell precint are u with , and what the hell are u carrying? I told him I was from Jersey and it was a Python. He said thanks a million brother, but u ought to leave now just in case somebody decides u shouldn't be carrying up here. I reloaded, and left. never did find out his name. Never did find out how he explained the 6 lead marks in the rear of the car and the 5 or 6 other holes in the window and the trunk. Guess I never will...

Didn't mean to hijack the thread... Sorry....
Jack

waksupi

08-06-2009, 07:25 PM

As to gun writers being shills. Having been involved in the gun business for some years, I do know if you expect to have a product reviewed in a magazine, most I have been in contact with, are there with their hand out for free samples, be it a rifle, or any other equipment. There is one well known writer I know of, who shot an elk in Wyoming, and had his picture taken with two different rifles. The story went to the highest bidder. I could go into more very distasteful details on this particular incident.
I'm sure there are some that are not like this, and they are generally the better writers. As far as I know, Mike Venterino has always paid his own way, and his articles show it. I suspect Al Miller, Harvey Donaldson, and a few of the better ones have fit this mold.

bohokii

08-06-2009, 08:14 PM

Heavy lead

08-06-2009, 08:19 PM

Interesting thread per usual. I'm thinking I'm going to switch to those Hornady rubber tipped bullets, then I'll just claim I was hoping they would just bounce off and scare the guy as to not hurt him. Ala OJ, I can just stab one into my hand and say "look judge, won't even draw blood".
:roll:

HeavyMetal

08-06-2009, 09:27 PM

I Stated earlier today that I Thought the "MAN" would have hard time proving what I used was a reload, I contend that I am correct!

In my garage he would find reloading gear, he would also find at least a dozen or so ammo box's from any number of manufacturers as I USUALLY scronge these for storage when at the range. I do not believe I am alone in this habit!

So carbide dies leave a smooth finish, tumbling after sizing can't help any marks that might be left, lots of half filled ammo box's and I've had enough sense not to either brag like an idiot or cry like a baby that I hurt someone!

Co operate within reason, suggest that you would like to consult with a lawyer before answering questions, be aware that any questions asked prior to being marandized are not admissable in court( at least they weren't) and don't be afraid to suggest that idea to your questioner.

UNDERSTAND that the risk of jail time is very very real until a grand jury hearing or bail is posted and keep your cool!

Bottom line is they have no way to prove you reloaded, bought a reload, were given a reload or purchased what you thought was factory ammo, or that it may have even come with the gun when purchased!

Unless you tell them yourself!

Given the fact that your shooting was "Ligit" the DA's office will have a hard time justifiying the dollars to do the "SCIENCE" to prove you used a reload in an attempt to "CREATE" media hype for what ever agenda he wishs to pursue. HE will be smart enough to know that other, easier, oppertunities will present themselves to him.

As a DA he need only wait crime does land on his desk!

hpdrifter

08-06-2009, 09:50 PM

I've had several people advise me to carry factory ammo for protection due to liability reasons. Some have advised that I should carry the same ammo as the local cops, so that a prosecutor has no way to make it out to be something horrific without badmouthing the cops.

The only case law where I could find a reference to the caliber or type of ammo used by a defensive shooter was the Harold Fish case. Fish got demonized for choosing a 10mm Kimber for a defensive arm. Fish got railroaded by an over zealous prosecutor in my opinion. He just got let out about 2 weeks ago.

And, two of the jurors stated flatly that hollow point bullets were "meant to kill".
I know this has no relevance at all to this discussion, directly, but the inference is that jurors are a fickle lot. While I concur with the old saying about taking my chances with 12, instead of being carried by six, I'd still like to stack things in my direction. I shoot and play with reloads and cast, but when loaded for "action", the ammo will be run of the mill factory ammo. I'll let you other brave souls be the "test" cases.

DLCTEX

08-06-2009, 09:51 PM

1. I have had factory loads Fail to fire. 2. I have had reloads fail to fire. 3. I found what caused the reloads to fail and corrected it. 4. I still don't know what caused most of the factory loads to fail. 5. I have reloads I trust more than factory loads so that's what I carry. 6. Texas has Castle doctrine, thankfully. Most people in my area of the country are more gun savvy than the left and right coasts, tend to throw the book at perps and cut the good guys some slack. I have been chewed out because I didn't shoot a perp when I had the chance. If I were to carry in some other parts of the country, I might rethink some of my choices, but here where common sense still can be found I'm comfortable with what I am currently doing.

shooting on a shoestring

08-06-2009, 09:58 PM

During my college years, my bedside gun was a .36 Cap and Ball, Remington Clone. All it could fire was reloads...or were they just loads? They certainly weren 't factory loads. I wonder how an anti-gun DA, a Grand Jury or even the revered Ayoob would handle that one?

PS I choose the .36 b/c 1. it shot where i pointed it - sights weren't necessary to hit well at bedroom ranges, 2. it was across the threshold of what I consider enough gun, 3. I didn't want to risk losing my cherished Mod 19 if I ever did have to shoot, 4. the .36 was reliable (yes it did require more maint. but properly performed, the pistol performed properly), 5. it was cheap to shoot, a necessity at the time.

Recluse

08-06-2009, 10:18 PM

Massad Ayoob is a recognized court authority on firearms and self-defense. I don't think any of us here are. That pretty much settles who to trust on this issue.

But Ayoob has never fired a shot in anger, either. I tend to trust those who've been involved in shootings as they've been there firsthand and from the very outset.

Ayoob has some good advice in many of his writings--I just happen to disagree with him on several things. Neither of us lose any sleep over it, I'm sure.

Regarding the Massad Ayoob deal and handloads. I used to read his articles years back, but always was amazed how a RESERVE Officer with a small NH Police Dept with IIRC 5 or 6 Officers.....got all that experience and knew so much??

FN in MT

Back in my LE days, a lot of us used to ask that very same question.

However, having met the man on two different occasions, I believe he IS sincere in his looking out for the average gun-owner.

I wold not consider those of us here at Cast Boolits "average gun owners." For one, we shoot a helluva lot more than the average gun owner. Two, we reload. Three, we cast our boolits. Four, we're a lot more "indepedent" and self-reliant than the average gun owner. Most of us here are veterans or ex-law enforcement or both.

Our outlook as well as level of preparedness is quite a bit higher than the average gun owner's. That's why I take much of Ayoob's advice with a grain of salt. But when asked about it by average gun owners (who shoot maybe once a year), I tell them it's good advice.

Hope that makes sense.

I carry in my guns whatever will get the job done best--be it hunting, shooting coke cans, or potential life & death self-defense. I worry about the "Now of the moment" (defending myself/family) more than the "Later at the police station."

Should I ever have to use my guns in self-defense as a civlian, my tactics are simple. When asked "what happened?" my reply will be, "Officer, I'm not really sure. I'm pretty shook up and not sure what I'm saying. I'd like to go over this with my personal attorney and then WE'LL talk to you when I'm feeling better."

If they (cops) insist on arresting me, then I just had a heart attack--load me up in an ambulance and take me to the hospital. Probably due to all that stress from nearly being killed myself.

As a former cop, the less you say, the better. Always.

:coffee:

rhead

08-06-2009, 10:38 PM

someone told me they would try to use the you made the bullets extra deadly or it shows a mindset of you wanting to use them and makes your reloads premeditated or some such nonsense

i say if you reload and use them how is that any more premeditated than buying hi-shock factory ammo to use

all reasons seem to be refutable with logic(you dont want a kaboom when your life is on the line) hell i dont want a kaboom period and kabooms happen with factory ammo too

Whichever you choose to use the scumbag lawyer will use it against you. Once the gunfight starts being the defendant in the court case becomes the immeadiate goal. All other goals are secondary. I will use whatever I am most confident in.

2ndAmendmentNut

08-06-2009, 11:00 PM

yes you did mean to kill him...there is no such thing as pulling a gun to wound someone....the criteria is deadly force is required becasue he has threatened me, my family, and this was the correct response.
more to worry about witnesses.
make loud verbal warnings..... STOP OR I WILL SHOOT...PUT THE GUN/KNIFE/CLUB DOWN OR I WILL SHOOT.....

Of course I would shoot to kill. Heaven forbid I ever have to use a gun against a fellow man, but if a loved one or I are in mortal danger my gun is not coming out just to make noise. I just don’t want some lawyer making me out to be the real criminal instead of the murderer simply because I handloaded a few rounds.

mike in co

08-07-2009, 02:09 AM

And, two of the jurors stated flatly that hollow point bullets were "meant to kill".
I know this has no relevance at all to this discussion, directly, but the inference is that jurors are a fickle lot. While I concur with the old saying about taking my chances with 12, instead of being carried by six, I'd still like to stack things in my direction. I shoot and play with reloads and cast, but when loaded for "action", the ammo will be run of the mill factory ammo. I'll let you other brave souls be the "test" cases.

lol...very funny...so you are gonna shoot ball ammo, and not current state of the art self defense ammo....its ALL HOLLOW POINT!

mike in co

08-07-2009, 02:22 AM

Mike...man....yer missing the forest for the trees. I used the the 'squib .380' (ie the round did not fire at peak performance) example because of the fact that realisticlly it would be less likely to result in a one shot stop. Now if I had said one shot from .460 smith and wesson someone might have said 'well duh, half the dude's chest is on the ground behind him". The caliber is not the point. The point is that we do not 'shoot to kill' rather we 'shoot to stop'. The guy in my first example; say he is on the ground screaming bloody hell. As long as he is not reaching for or deploying a weapon we do not shoot him again. If he is acting in a manner that constitutes a direct hazard to us, ie deploying a BUG, then obviously he is still a threat and we keep shooting until he knocks that crap off. Never did I say multiple rounds were a bad idea, nor did I say shoot one round and evaluate the situation. Once you start shooting keep shooting until the threat stops.

i practice weekly...you cannot fall down as fast as i can shoot......you may not practice as much as i do, heck you may practice more......but if presented with a deadly threat situation..one on one,.i'm getting off three shots as fast as i can, and then evaluate the threat.
nice senerio, and i do own a 380, but it is a back up gun not a first line gun.
unless the gun is my 44 mag lever gun or the 12 ga pump, all (pistol) engagements will be 3 and evaluate.
if he is laying on the ground screaming after three shots, i will suggest he call someone on his cell phone ............

yes shoot til the threat stops........

mike

-06

08-07-2009, 08:24 AM

I have factory loads in everything except for my deer rifle(77) and 742. The only reason I don't use handloads is that Iam just getting into loading and pouring. I do have some 38 rds loaded and looking for a 45 mould.
Legality be d-----, if he is in my home he is fair game because as Clint Eastwood said in a movie-he is not trying to collect for the Sunday School fund. wc

dogbert41

08-08-2009, 05:03 PM

I use what I got. I happen to have a lot of old good stuff lying around like black talons and such.

I have some nice .380 hollow points too, luckily, so I'm set. But many out there don't these days. It's better to carry your gun with something in it than to keep it at home empty.

Of course if you live in California, it won't matter what you shoot somebody with. The man left standing with the gun is guilty.

2ndAmendmentNut

08-08-2009, 05:56 PM

Of course if you live in California, it won't matter what you shoot somebody with. The man left standing with the gun is guilty.

Sad but true, sad but true.

Recluse

08-09-2009, 01:23 PM

Of course if you live in California, it won't matter what you shoot somebody with. The man left standing with the gun is guilty.

Only if you're a law-abiding, employed, tax-paying, straight white male. :rolleyes:

:takinWiz: Kalifornia politicians.

:coffee:

zxcvbob

08-09-2009, 03:21 PM

I thought the self-defense laws in California were actually pretty good. They just like harrassing gun owners during the 99.9% of the time while nobody is getting shot.

hpdrifter

08-09-2009, 06:02 PM

lol...very funny...so you are gonna shoot ball ammo, and not current state of the art self defense ammo....its ALL HOLLOW POINT!

yep, you got it right

zxcvbob

08-09-2009, 06:22 PM

I'm trying to decide whether to switch to my own homemade boolits for my home defense ammo, or to buy another box of bulk SWCHP swaged bullets. [in .38 Special. My previous .380 Auto remarks were a snarky joke.]

Handloads is pretty much a given.

JIMinPHX

08-11-2009, 12:33 AM

lol...very funny...so you are gonna shoot ball ammo, and not current state of the art self defense ammo....its ALL HOLLOW POINT!

In a .45ACP, hardball is not so bad.

Lee

08-11-2009, 12:43 AM

"In a .45ACP, hardball is not so bad."....................:twisted:

Couldn'a said it better................

9.3X62AL

08-11-2009, 02:35 AM

Massad Ayoob is a recognized court authority on firearms and self-defense. I don't think any of us here are.

Qualified expert witness--Firearms nomenclature, identification, internal/external/terminal ballistics.

-->Riverside, San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Orange, and San Diego Superior Courts, California

-->United States Courts--Central District of California (Los Angeles), Central District of Arizona (Phoenix).

Those are the Courts I remember qualifying in, and did the most work within. There may have been others, the timeline runs from 1983 to 2005.

Career experience includes several hundred cases of homicide and aggravated assault involving firearms usage and the forensic reconstruction and interpretation of firearms evidence found therein.

In all that time--in all those cases--the question of "reload vs. factory load" never came up. Not once. It is not an element of the crime, or of the criminal or defensive course of conduct of the participants. On the civil side, it might become an issue--but these sorts of cases nearly never get to a trial in my experience. A homeowner's insurance carrier or a police agency waves between $5K-$15K at the lawyers for the bad guy/heirs/assigns, the lawyers proclaim "justice served" (fried or grilled), the bad guy's survivors get new spinners on their roach coach, and the lawyers get a couple Range Rover payments outta the deal.

Welcome to street reality, California Style. To paraphrase the late Hunter S. Thompson, life is cheap in the fast lane--but there are still a lot of expensive wrecks.

I carry my agency's duty loads in a given caliber in my firearms. Ranger SXT ammo is good stuff, ESPECIALLY the 40 S&W/180 and 45 ACP/230. EVERY bullet I've seen removed at autopsy or during surgery looks like ad copy for Winchester ammunition. Recipients take the hint quickly, and seldom require more than 1 or 2 installations before the concept dawns on them. I think a CCW citizen could do a lot worse than to carry whatever their local or state agency carries in their sidearms/rifles/shotguns.

Massad Ayoob is a fine journalist, indeed.

Adam10mm

08-11-2009, 02:08 PM

Was wondering when you'd chine in, Al.)

9.3X62AL

08-11-2009, 04:36 PM

Now, Freek--you know I'm a low-profile kind of crank.

I can't speak with knowledge on the courtroom realities outside the area I worked in. If CPT Ayoob's courtroom experience is as different from my own as his appears to be from his writings, I can only speculate that his courts are a very different animal than those I'm accustomed to.

This question has a way of coming around every few months or so. Getting straight answers is a real problem, because the variables are so manifold. I have my own biases, too--the 2 chief ones being 1) if the problem/question bugs you, just get factory ammo and be done with it and 2) I've found that my agency's ammo is pretty good stuff (excepting that 147 grain sub-sonic 9mm crap). And, to paraphrase Bret--I think shooters spend way too much time worrying about arrows, and far too little time being concerned with the Indian. Place those shots well, and even the FBI-pimped sub-sonic 9mm stuff might stop someone.

Recluse

08-11-2009, 06:16 PM

I've found that my agency's ammo is pretty good stuff (excepting that 147 grain sub-sonic 9mm crap). And, to paraphrase Bret--I think shooters spend way too much time worrying about arrows, and far too little time being concerned with the Indian. Place those shots well, and even the FBI-pimped sub-sonic 9mm stuff might stop someone.

Heh heh. Someone who hates that subsonic 9mm stuff worse than I do.

Way it was explained to us back in my LE days, "subsonic" would work better in our suppressed weapons. Only problem was, U.S. Marshals didn't use suppressed weapons--except for some of the guys on the SOG teams maybe.

DEA used it for the same reason, plus claiming it wouldn't "spark" which meant raiding meth labs would be safer. ATF concurred and bought up tons of the stuff as well.

Folks, only your U.S. government can come up with this kind of "logic." :veryconfu

:coffee:

Bret4207

08-11-2009, 07:56 PM

We had that 9mm sub-sonic garbage right after we got the Glocks in '94 or so. Garbage, absolute garbage. But it was "The FBI Load" so I gues that was supposed to mean it was mo'better than the other stuff. Going from a Smith 681 357 to a Glock with 9mm subsonic...well, underwhelming is the word that comes to mind.

Recluse

08-12-2009, 12:23 AM

But it was "The FBI Load" so I gues that was supposed to mean it was mo'better than the other stuff.

Why Bret, you know what the "FBI Load" was, don't you? (Besides being an FBI-sized load of dogcrap)

It's all part of the FBI legend. Bank is getting robbed, bad guys are firing their shotguns and machine guns and bazookas all around, pandemonium in the street, local cops are fleeing in terror, state cops have fainted dead away. . . and here comes. . . da-da-dum! The FBI!

Young Gucci-shoed, Armani-suited, freshly-shaven pink-faced agent-boys jump out of their cars in dashingly shiny FBI raid jackets. With credentials in one hand and their Lady Smiths in the other, they streak through the front doors of the bank, skid to a stop amidst the blood and broken glass and sternly hold up their shiny golden shields and shout:

"FBI, nobody move! We have FBI loads in our FBI guns that we pulled from FBI holsters under our FBI raid jackets!"

And then, according to dictum given by the instructors at Quantico, the bad guys gently put down their weapons and raise their hands in the air--so awed and mortally terrified are they of the legendary G-men.

Wouldn't be possible without those FBI-Loads. Kinda surprised at you, Bret. Thought you knew this. . .

:coffee:

Bret4207

08-12-2009, 08:24 AM

So there we were, speeding through the pre-dawn twilight on to occupied indian territory. Our mission- to execute numerous search warrants related to the illegal gambling taking place all over the Rez. We were right behind Capt Alf "Crazy Horse" Crary, NYSP, famous for his "...give me 2 Troopers and a bag on handcuffs and I'll take the whole Rez!..." comment. (Problem was he really meant it, hence the Crazy Horse nick name) We were the 1st car in line behind our fearless leader. In the back seat was an FBI Agent of about 40 years age. As we rounded a bend in the road we could clearly see the Warriors ( their name, we didn't pin it on them) manning 30 and 50 cal machine guns atop on of the gambling halls that was under construction. That's when the FBI guy in the back let down the spirit of ol' J. Edgar Hoover by going all to pieces. Apparently he was an accountant type and hadn't drawn a gun in decades. It was embarrassing.

We managed to get through the raid all right but I'll never forget that guy in the back seat or the other FBI guys in their double knit slacks and ties and rappelling harnesses. They were there for 2 days and we were there for 5 years. Gotta love 'em......