Update - re: Q's on .45 Colt

[Sky C.]

1 part hair of cat (still attached to cat), 4 parts eye of newt, 2 toenails from a weasel... Naw... but -


I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!

OK... So last week I reported on the dismal performance of the loads using the LEE 255-RFPB. Eight inch patterns out of a rifle (Marlin 1894) at 25yds. Unbelievable. This was repeated multiple times with different powders but the same basic result.

Much good input from folks on this board will have me doing more measuring and experiments shortly to try and improve things further in the future particularly in the area of revolver throats, but... In the short term - I thought I'd load up some 300gr. Saeco-SWC-GC bullets as well as try some 315gr. PB's which are the only other two bullet designs I have on hand for .45 cal to see if the problem was bullet related (my original suspicion). As a control - I also loaded up some of the LEE 255-RNFP-PB's, ACWW, unsized & tumble lubed in the Johnson's wax from the same batch as last time behind the same 8.5 gr charge of SR-7625. I wanted to also check on some changes in bench technique to see if I'd been a victim of bad gun handling.

Out to the range with the Marlin - again at 25yds.

1st off - Decided to run a few of the LEE's for baseline. This time - very tight hold on the rifle - nestled hard into sandbag. Results - slightly better than last time out with a pattern about 4 1/2" vertical by 2" horizontal. Yuck. Bench technique doesn't appear to be the root cause.

Next up - tried the Saeco 300 gr. bullet. These were sized .452, ACWW, Saeco green lube, same powder charge of SR-7625. I knew this would be a higher pressure load but still well within the pressure limits of the Marlin action. Proceeded to shoot a group that went 1 1/2" basically round. No great shakes here but much better than the previous pattern for sure.

Went next to try the 315gr. PBs and found they would not function through the action - something I'd failed to check before heading out. The nose is too bluff for the nose length and was engaging the rifling in the Marlin before the action was closed. It also caused the action to get tied up with "the Marlin jam" I suspect that with the ultra-bluff profile of the bullet and it's too long length held the cartridge stop back and allowed the following round back into the action tying it up. Anyhow - got that cleared and went back to testing.

Decided to run another string of the LEE bullets down range - mainly thinking it would be easier to pull the trigger to empty the brass than to pull them down at home. Five shots down range & I nearly fell off the stool. These 5 clustered tightly into an inch! What the....?

Back to the Saeco bullet - 5 shots - again a duplicate performance of the last string with this bullet - 1 1/2".

Back to the LEE - 5 more shots - 1" again.

A final group with the LEE bullet behind a charge of 8.4grs HERCO piled into 3/4".

Now these groups are only at 25yds. so no big deal. That's what I'd expected to begin with. The puzzlement is what changed? Within a few shots - the same load goes from patterns to clovers. ????

Another observation - the sooting that had been pretty bad with the SR-7625 load from the previous week is now not bad at all. (The Herco load was still a mess.)

So I am now more confused than ever. I'm usually happy to get good performance but not this - this is enough to drive me nuts. I like to be able to account for changes so I can repeat results in the future. This one has me stumped. The rifle is relatively new - these rounds, last week and this, accounted for rounds 51-100 through the gun. Could it be that the barrel is just seasoning? Something else? When I got home & cleaned, the bore was not lead free. Not terrible by any means, but there was a bit of lead coming out on the patch. Seemed mostly concentrated at the chamber end where the patch felt rough going over that area until I got the lead out.

I have dismissed this as being a bullet design problem for the LEE bullet and I think my bench technique was sufficiently consistant (I used the same technique throughout the shooting session on tis outing). I have no idea as to what changed to settle the gun/load combination down but I'd sure like to know.

Ideas?


Thanks-

"a very confused" Sky C.

[44man]

The first thing to try is a slower powder like 296 or H110. You might be starting the boolit faster then it can take the rifling, more so if the boolit is too soft.
Next, try a softer lube like Felix.
You also don't say what primer you are using. Be sure to try both magnum and standard primers with the slow powders. Don't use a mag primer with the fast powders.
My Marlin .44 will put 5 shots in 1/2" at 50 yd's using the Lee boolit, Felix lube, 296 and a Fed 150 primer.

[Bass Ackward]

Sky,

From your description, you have a problem in your throat area. Either your throat is rough or you still have some copper in the bore that is tearing up your bullets until it leads over some. At least that is what I would guess.

How many jacketed you got through this piece?

[Doughty]

Sky

I'm thinking you may have, or had, a burr in the new barrel that is gone now or at least wearing a way. Any one in your area have a borescope?

[David R]

Sounds lilke you have to jam it and clear it now and then. That is the only thing I see you have done since it shot so terrible.

David

[w30wcf]

Sky C.

GLAD to hear that accuracy has improved considerably since your first outing.

Based on your results, your barrel just shoots better after it has been fouled by the first few shots. If you overlay the targets, do any of the shots in the first 5 shot group line up with the shots from the other 5 shot groups using the Lee bullet?

Regarding the throat leading, your .452" bullets may be slightly undersized for your bore or, perhaps, your powder charge / alloy may need to be adjusted, although it seems ok to me. A tight fitting patch pushed through a clean barrel in the first few inches forward of the chamber, will tell if there are any irregularities present. I'm betting that it is one of the first two.

w30wcf

[Blackwater]

This is just a flat out guess, but I've noted in the past on a few occasions, that some bore cleaners can leave the bore dryish. At least that's the way some lubes seem to react, and maybe it's just a simple chemical compatibility issue???

I took to taking a patch smeared with a little of the lube I'm planning to use, and running it down the bore to coat it lightly, can help after a really good cleaning job. Tends to get the bore back to shooting like it ought to .... sometimes, at least.

I do think that SOME cleaning chemicals, and maybe a TOO clean bore, may require some shooting afterward to get the bore "conditioned" and back to shooting like it ought to.

There's a lot to know to get cast to shoot like we all want them to, sometimes, but it's well worth what little effort it takes to get to this point. All it really takes is simply noticing what works and what doesn't. The explanations can be extrapolated later, but first order of business is simply to find out what works consistently.

Ain't this fun?

[Sky C.]

Gentlemen-

Thank you once again for your assist with this.

-44MAN: The slower powder route is one I'll explore downstream when building a full-up kind of load. My experience so far with the slower powders has been they prefer to be operating at higher pressure to get complete burning. Since I'm first off looking for original SAA duplication loads I suspect that will put me over the top.

Primer wise I'm using WLP's. As for lubes - I usually prefer soft lubes myself and in fact used soft lube (Gray's #24) during the first outing. However was looking for something faster and had heard good reports on the Johnson's wax as a TL. That what was used on the LEE bullets during the second trip. ???


-BA: No full length GC bullets through this rifle at all. The 150 shots to date are all cast and all the shots save for what the factory used in proofing that this rifle has seen. The throat roughness explanation sounds plausible but after cleaning, a tight patch passes as smoothly across the throat as through the rest of the bore.


-Old Vic: Maybe so. I don't have a borescope myself and don't know of anyone here that does. Maybe something to look into. Though... I've been contemplating getting one of them contraptions for awhile now; just wish they didn't cost as much as a gun!

PS> Bullets arrived yesterday. Will send a separate PM your way shortly.


-David R: I think that plan is going to get the nod initially. That will give me more of a baseline to work from.


-W30WCF: Will need to do the overlay trick and see. First off - after things settled down - all shots were piling into the same place. In shooting the "wide" groups though - they were not walking thier way to that location. First high, then low, then wide right, then wide left,... and so on. Strange.

The bit of leading in the throat. I'm guessing you (and others previously) are correct in that the bullet could be a bit undersized. Will try to get some of the measurements done today to find out.


-Blackwater: I saw a similar posting by Joe B. awhile back - specifically relating to Kroil. Interesting idea about the lubed patch. I'll give it a try to see if it will help settle down first shot variation and put it in the group. Sounds like taking the cleaing stuff to the range will be needed for this experiment.


Guys- Thanks again for the encouragement and ideas. For now - will concentrate on getting things measured and get some more shots downrange so I can get a better baseline.

Best regards-

Sky C.

[44man]

Another thing to try is to put a ball of soft lube about the size of a pea on the nose of the first boolit.
I never wipe my boolits after loading. They have a lot of lube on them, I just wipe the brass. You just have to keep them away from dirt. If you are going to stuff them in your pocket, wipe them.

[Char-Gar]

Sky.... To be honest, it sounds like good old "operator error" at work here. As much as we would like to think we are shooting machines, we are not. If doesn't take much to throw us off our game even within the same shooting session.

I have had rifles and/or loads go sour on me, just to go sweet again a few minutes later or the next time at the range.

It only takes a fleeting thought, racing though our minds to make every thing go to hell in a handbasket. There are days when I am tired or under stress that I might as well throw rocks at the target, no matter how hard I try to concentrate on the basis.

On a good day, I can shoot with anybody..but my good days can't be called up on demand. The the only difference between me and a world champ is the champ can give 100% concentration 100% of the time. I cannot and I have been a serious rifleman for well over a half century.

Another thought is our yes, as we get older, diet and other things can cause our eyes to go out of whack for a few minutes and then go back right again.

We tend to look at the tools when groups open up, but often times it is just plain old operator error..happens to men.

[Pilgrim]

The way you describe the first "patterns" would imply a problem with the muzzle/crown, or bullets, OR ignition. Given it started shooting after a bit, I'd discount the muzzle crown, and the bullets. It is possible (maybe likely) that you were getting inconsistent ignition due to an inconsistent hammer fall. After a few rounds, the burrs or whatever that were in the hammer pin, etc may have smoothed out and now the hammer fall is more consistent. Sometimes what we attribute to barrels and bullets is due to a weak firing pin spring (bolt guns), or weak hammer spring (revolters, lever guns and the like). The same effect can result from a crudded up firing pin/hammer/etc that results in uneven hammer or firing pin fall. The slight difference in primers shot to shot, coupled with a soft or uneven hammer fall can send bullets all over the paper. Sounds weird, but I've seen it and fixed it in the past. FWIW...Pilgrim

[Dale53]

SkyC;
Blackwater's mention of "bore condition" and your mention of "Kroil" in that connection reminded me of a situation that I witnessed a few years ago. A couple of friends and I, all retired, decided to spend the summer shooting .22's and investigating "bore condition". In our investigation, practically every type of rifle one is apt to see on the firing line was used, That included several high end Anshutz', BSA Martini Int'ls and several other single shots as well as autos. One of the fellows had a rather nice original H&W falling block single shot. The bore had been relined and the rifle was a consistent performer. However, a mutual acquaintance had highly touted the use of a modern motor oil additive that came in quarts. It was a finely dispersed microfine moly in some sort of oil carrier. It had "wondrous" qualities. It made ordinary rifles into "giant killers". In short it was a "snake oil" of fantastic abilities. Well, I was dubious (hey, I can't help it - I'm Irish:mrgreen:). At any rate, the procedure was to clean your rifle with your best bore cleaner. Then carefully dry. Then oil the bore with the "snake oil". Fire a shot and then more "snake oil". You were to do this with 10 shots. After that, miracles were to happen....

Well, that rifle went from a consistent 3/8"-1/2" performer at 50 yards to about 4.0-5.0". The more he shot the more it looked as if the barrel was ruined. It looked just fine - just would not shoot. He was sick. However, I guess in frustration, he kept shooting it through several sessions later even though he was convinced the rifle was ruined. After an entire brick of ammo (500 shots) the rifle finally, and absolutely miraculously, it started shooting again at the same level it had.

Moral of the story: BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU PUT IN YOUR BARREL!!

I have used "Ed's Red" (home mix") for many years with great success. It, after tests, seems to leave the bore condition conducive to good shooting after cleaning with minimal fouling shots. Make no mistake, there IS a difference.

Dale53

[Sky C.]

Gentlemen-

The bore condition issue is one where I KNOW I have introduced variability. Seems I've liked to play with a variety of cleaners and probably haven't cleaned the bore the same way twice in the same bore let alone from gun to gun. Ed's Red is a staple that I'm using to clean out the baseline of powder fouling and often finish with that as well. But in between - I have tried a host of things that may very well lead to problems. I like the idea of conditioning the bore with a lubed patch and will try that - checking how first shot lands in relation to subsequent shots in the group.

Pilgrim: Thanks for the heads-up about firing pin / hammer fall. Could very well have been something going on there.

Charger: You gotta be kidding! Me - not a machine!!!! ;-) I have to admit - it's entirely possible I'm just a loose nut behind the butt. Most days - I can do pretty well but I tend to shoot a variety of guns from .22 to .45-70 and I recognize they don't behave the same on the bench. I could very well be to blame for the poor showing though I have to say - the 8" patterns I got AT 25 YDS out of the rifle on the first outing would be an abominable showing even on my bad days. I'm sure there must be some 'alibi' to excuse that rather than it being me.

Anyhow - I'm going to give myself a few more sessions at the range to better establishi the baseline of what's going on. Then.... We'll see.

Thanks all-

Sky C.

[Bret4207]

It would seem possible that as the throat area took some roughness and a little lead it caused a better ignition in your case by holding the boolit back a little longer, ie- you may have ignition issues with that load.

As to the lube, I have some rifles with bores that are... well, lets say they have seen better days and are seeing better cleaning then they had with the previous owners. On one sewer pipe I cleaned the thing spotless and ran a few patches soaked in Lee Liquid Frog Snot down the bore as seasoning. Worked for me.

[44man]

Pilgrim is right about the mainsprings. If you have a weak one and use a primer that is soft, you will barely get by with the accuracy. Then if you change primers and start to use some with hard cups, accuracy vanishes and you will blame all kinds of other things. Primers MUST be hit with a certain amount of force or they will not burn with consistancy.

[Bucks Owin]

I've recently switched from CCI to WLP primers for the reasons you mentioned 44man. I'm getting more consistent velocities and zero FTFs with my old Flattop .44 (and I always use a Lee hand tool for consistent priming too). Maybe worth a try to switch primers SkyC?

Another thought SkyC is that although the old time tested slow powders like 2400, H110, W296, 4227 etc have been fine performers over the years, don't be afraid to "go outside the box" now and then. All guns are a law unto themselves! I've been playing with some silhouette loads using H-LilGun and SR 4759 lately and have had some pretty encouraging results after shooting "OK" groups for years with the old "standards".....

Here's a dilemma I've had that maybe one of you pistoleros can shed some light on. That is, the dreaded 4+1 group. Repeatedly, I've fired loads from the bench that have this tendency to group 4 shots into an inch and throw one flyer out of the group. I'm pretty sure it's not my hold or ammo, and the flyer can come at any time, and from any chamber and is apparently not just the "5th shot heebie jeebies"....

Any thoughts?

Dennis :Fire:

[Nrut]

I've recently switched from CCI to WLP primers for the reasons you mentioned 44man. I'm getting more consistent velocities and zero FTFs with my old Flattop .44 (and I always use a Lee hand tool for consistent priming too). Maybe worth a try to switch primers SkyC?

Another thought SkyC is that although the old time tested slow powders like 2400, H110, W296, 4227 etc have been fine performers over the years, don't be afraid to "go outside the box" now and then. All guns are a law unto themselves! I've been playing with some silhouette loads using H-LilGun and SR 4759 lately and have had some pretty encouraging results after shooting "OK" groups for years with the old "standards".....

Here's a dilemma I've had that maybe one of you pistoleros can shed some light on. That is, the dreaded 4+1 group. Repeatedly, I've fired loads from the bench that have this tendency to group 4 shots into an inch and throw one flyer out of the group. I'm pretty sure it's not my hold or ammo, and the flyer can come at any time, and from any chamber and is apparently not just the "5th shot heebie jeebies"....

Any thoughts?

Dennis :Fire:

Mr. Bucks...I have loading data for LiL'Gun but have'nt seen any for IMR SR 4759 in handguns....would you please direct me to your source? ...thanks

[Bass Ackward]

Here's a dilemma I've had that maybe one of you pistoleros can shed some light on. That is, the dreaded 4+1 group. Repeatedly, I've fired loads from the bench that have this tendency to group 4 shots into an inch and throw one flyer out of the group. I'm pretty sure it's not my hold or ammo, and the flyer can come at any time, and from any chamber and is apparently not just the "5th shot heebie jeebies"....

Any thoughts?

Dennis :Fire:


Dennis,

What kind, style, and diameter of bullets?

[Bucks Owin]

Mr. Bucks...I have loading data for LiL'Gun but have'nt seen any for IMR SR 4759 in handguns....would you please direct me to your source? ...thanks

Initially from a pal at the Ruger Forum, but there is data from Swift Bullets too. In their tests it gives the lowest SD of powders tested with 240 gr boolits. It's slightly "slower" than H110/W296 and is quite large grained. Bulks up nicely in the case & requires a tight crimp.....


Bass, it seems to occur with cast bullets mainly, both commercial 240 gr and my own 250 gr Keith. I thought maybe it was a "bubble" somewhere in the bullet even though they were checked for uniform weight. But I've also had the same thing with Montana 240 gr jacketed pills. Test vehicle is a 10" Ruger S/A with all throats at .432 to .4325" if that helps....

Ideas?

Dennis

FWIW, it seems to occur mainly with bullets of 240 to 250 grs. My homecast 225 gr GC boolits shoot into an inch @ 25 yds...(when I do my part! :-D ) and the various jacketed 300 gr shoot into -2"....
Could it be some kinda "stabilization thing" do you suppose?
I've been thinking of trying a Redding taper crimp die for maybe a little more uniform crimps although I think that may be going "off track"....

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, it seems to occur with cast bullets mainly, both commercial 240 gr and my own 250 gr Keith. I thought maybe it was a "bubble" somewhere in the bullet even though they were checked for uniform weight. But I've also had the same thing with Montana 240 gr jacketed pills. Test vehicle is a 10" Ruger S/A with all throats at .432 to .4325" if that helps....

Ideas?

Dennis

FWIW, it seems to occur mainly with bullets of 240 to 250 grs. My homecast 225 gr GC boolits shoot into an inch @ 25 yds...(when I do my part! :-D ) and the various jacketed 300 gr shoot into -2"....
Could it be some kinda "stabilization thing" do you suppose?
I've been thinking of trying a Redding taper crimp die for maybe a little more uniform crimps although I think that may be going "off track"....


Dennis,

Many people jump on a defective bullet way too easily. No. My guess would have been that you could have been running too close to bore diameter and simply got a little gas cutting that may or may not have caused minor leading from that bullet. This happens when you have throats considerably larger than bore and you are trying to stay with bore diameter bullets. The bullets have room to wiggle and hit the forcing cone unpredictably. It can be more prone to happen with bullets that have a sharp (weak) front band if forcing cone impact damages the shoulder.

That is right up until you mentioned the jacketed. Then it comes back to ignition. Now is it (1) case neck tension / crimp? Could be, I think you understand that. Or inconsistent primer impact (2)? Well, you did see your way to changing primer and a WLP is still hot. But I doubt it. Or it could be that you are (3) bordering on too low of pressure for that slow of a powder / weight bullet in the velocity range you are choosing to operate in? Could be a combination of those causes.

My guess is (3). Either speed up your powder selection to raise pressure at that velocity level or raise pressure with that powder and go up in velocity. Or raise bullet diameter to fill your throat or soften your bullet metal to match your pressure level. After you think about it some, maybe you can diagnos it yourself. HTHs.

[Nrut]

Bucks thanks for the SR4759 info...
regarding your problem ,have you read what 44man posted awhile back on case neck tension?...

[StarMetal]

Bass and Dennis,

I see this more with an autoloader, but on the first shot rather then the last. I attribute it to the first round is always hand chambered, whereas the following shots are semi-auto loaded. Being I like to shoot five shot groups I'll load seven in my clip, shoot the first one that I hand loaded off target, then shoot my five...leaving a loaded one in the chamber, then I load five more in the clip and repeat except for that very very first shot I shot off target. I haven't seen this event happening with my revolvers. If anything my first shot with anything is my bad one until I get in the groove for shooting.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Thanks for the carefully considered post Bass. You've provided some obvious avenues that I should have thought of myself!

Much obliged,

Dennis :Fire:

BTW, the Montana jacketed bullets I was using aren't the highest quality in the world most likely. I tried them as they are very inexpensive and I probably got what I paid for!
You ideas on throat diameter/ forcing cone seem reasonable and my Flattop has a VERY short forcing cone too. More like a "beveled edge" on the lands....

[Bucks Owin]

Bucks thanks for the SR4759 info...
regarding your problem ,have you read what 44man posted awhile back on case neck tension?...

Nrut,

FWIW, here is a group fired @ 25 yds with one of my early experimental loadings with SR 4759 and this load is a mild pressured/moderate velocity starting point if you want to try some of that powder. Of course I'm not "recommending" any data here.... ;-)

Do you remember the name of the thread about neck tension?

Thanks,

Dennis :Fire:

(It's also one of those pesky "4+1" groups....)


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/262grKeith.jpg

[StarMetal]

Dennis,

44man had a pretty good thread going on neck tension....ask him to see if he can remember what it was.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Dennis,

44man had a pretty good thread going on neck tension....ask him to see if he can remember what it was.

Joe

I think I may have found it at "44man questions on super accuracy"....

Looks like a good thread anyway! :coffee:

Dennis

(who thinks neck tension and uniform ignition are the key....)

[Nrut]

Bucks......the thread I was refering to is called.... a question for all loaders...dated 1/25 by 44man....in post #34 he gave the anwer to his question........in post #86 & #87 he posted pictures as to how he modified his loading press to segregate rounds as to their case neck tension........pictures (2) are not there now????.....But I copied them to "my pictures" and think I can send them to you if you PM your e-mail address.....or you could PM 44man for the pictures.....Very interesting stuff!!!

thanks for the SR4759 info