Help with 38/357 loads and BHN

[vinnyg]

Greetings Guys

I just recently started casting and have cast some bullets from the Lee mold 358-158-RF. I used pure lead and mixed with solder to get it between 16-1 / 20-1 mix. I purchased the Lee hardness tester and have tested the bullets to a 12.5 BHN.
According to the Lee chart this is strength PSI 17833 and a pressure Max PSI 16050.

My question is this, using this 158 grain bullet in 38 special load in manual with 4.3 grains Alliant Unique is at 920 FPS and 16000 PSI Max load.
But does that mean this lead bullet can not be used in 357 Magnum velocities?

According the Lyman chart WW’s produce a BHN of 9 which is a much less PSI of 11473 Max so this does not make sense to me as of yet. Can you guys enlighten me please?

Simply what do I have to mix to use this bullet at 357 velocities?

Thank you in advance.
Vinnyg.

[snaggdit]

OK, some work to do here. First, I don't agree with Lyman. This is the source I tend to agree more with: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
Pure is around 5-6, and IMHO all the tin in the world (without some antimony as well) won't get you 12bhn from it. I have to think what you thought was pure was not.
One solution to shooting these in the 357 would be water dropping, but pure or pure + tin will not water harden. It needs impurities such as arsenic which is present in clip on WW. If you were to water drop your alloy then check with your hardness tester a few days later and they are 16-18 you can assume you have some WW in your mix.
Tin solder is expensive. A 20:1 mix is 5% tin! Anything over 2% is just waste IMHO. Yes, tin helps make pretty boolits with good fillout, but after 1-2% it does little more.
I recommend that you check the swappin and selling forum. Several members sell WW here. Mix a 50/50 mix with your pure and water drop. You will be fine for both that way.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the addiction!

[Bret4207]

Snaggdit says it all, throw the Lee chart out the window. There are too many other variables that can affect your shooting to think Bhn will have a huge effect. Take what you have and work up. If you can get some wheel weights they'll give you the trace elements you need to make better boolits.

Elmer Keith, the guy that developed the 44 mag and helped develop the 357 mag used tin and lead according to his writings. You can make what you have work if the boolits fit and the gun likes them. You'll just be a bit more limited velocity/pressure wise.

[cheese1566]

Ooopps, wrong button pressed...

[sheepdog]

OK, some work to do here. First, I don't agree with Lyman. This is the source I tend to agree more with: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
Pure is around 5-6, and IMHO all the tin in the world (without some antimony as well) won't get you 12bhn from it. I have to think what you thought was pure was not.
One solution to shooting these in the 357 would be water dropping, but pure or pure + tin will not water harden. It needs impurities such as arsenic which is present in clip on WW. If you were to water drop your alloy then check with your hardness tester a few days later and they are 16-18 you can assume you have some WW in your mix.
Tin solder is expensive. A 20:1 mix is 5% tin! Anything over 2% is just waste IMHO. Yes, tin helps make pretty boolits with good fillout, but after 1-2% it does little more.
I recommend that you check the swappin and selling forum. Several members sell WW here. Mix a 50/50 mix with your pure and water drop. You will be fine for both that way.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the addiction!

+1. Real pure in 38 is fine but its a waste of pure. I usually go 50% clip on/50% stick on for 38, same water dropped for 357.

[44man]

Only one statement I do not agree with. Pure is NOT good in the .38 either. [smilie=1:

[Shiloh]

I cast from whatever I can get.

One well-known bullet caster once said "If it looks plumbous, I'm apt to make bullets with it."

works for me.

Shiloh

[BABore]

Try them as they are. You might learn something about book rhetoric and opinions of old men. :takinWiz: Every gun is different and may or may not like a soft or hard boolit. The powder, and how hard and fast it hits the boolit base, is an important variable. Bullseye, WW 231, and Unique are from fast to slow on how they impact the base of the boolit. Hit a soft alloy to hard and quick and bad things can happen to accuracy. For every alloy hardness, there is a correct powder that will give outstanding accuracy. Just got to work with your gun to find it. When I work up HV pistol loads, I try both 10 and 22 bhn boolits, side by side to see what the gun likes best.

I've been on a 3 year quest to find a good plinker replacement for the Hornady 158 gr, swaged SWC. In my S&W 686, 8 3/8 bbl, with RD sight, it would shoot them into sub-inch groups at 50 yards. At 300 yards benched, I could keep them on a 5 gallon bucket. The load was 5.0 grains of WW 231 and a CCI 500 primer loaded in a mag case. Velocity was right around 1,000 fps with pure lead. I tried every mold I have, with alloys from 5 to 28 bhn, and couldn't match that Hornady load. Even other powders loaded to that velocity didn't work. Sure, 25 and 50 yard accuracy were close, but long range would show constant flyers. All loads were also tried out in my buddy's T/C bbl as we both shot the Hornady load for silhoutte with equal results. I finally decided to just copy the Hornady profile exactly and made a mold. I did add two very shallow lube grooves as I didn't want to have to knurl my boolits to hold the lube. After much experimentation with liquid lubes, I finally went with a single thinned coat of alox and a dusting of motor mica. Cast from Pb, I'm now using the same 5 grain load with equal accuracy. My buddy uses 5.5 grains in his 10" T/C. I would imagine his velocity is running closer to 1,150+ fps. Since then, 357Max borrowed my mold and won't give it back. He keeps wanting to send me cash or trade goods. He found the same type of accuracy with soft boolits.

Incidently, my 686 shoots harder boolits just as good. Different boolit, different hardness, different powder.

[243winxb]

Simply what do I have to mix to use this bullet at 357 velocities?vinnyg, For the 357 mag, change powder to Alliant 2400 is all you have to do. The slower powder works at lower pressures. I am not 100% sure Lee pressure chart is correct, as Lymans #2 alloy is 15 BHN and would seem to work well with all. Most important that the bullet drops for the mould at the correct diameter, is sized to the correct diameter and the lube works correctly.

[Leftoverdj]

The Lee theory is a lot more applicable to chambered barrels than to revolvers. Even with the same cartridge and load, the pressure curve is way different. A chambered barrel is a sealed system until the bullet exists. Revolvers start venting pressure as soon as the bullet existed the cylinder.

As a practical matter, 12.5 bnh is hard enough for all but but maybe the hottest of . 357 loads in a revolver. Most of my shooting is done with midrange loads so I am not one to ask about max loads. I can tell you that I mave frequently run into loads that shoot very well out of my six inch 686 and spray all over the place from a Handi rifle.

[fredj338]

I suspect you BHN for tin/lead is a bit high, probably closer to 9. I run 25-1 mix in my 44mags to 1200fps+ w/ very little leading. Sized right & a good lube will mean as much as the alloy. Dead soft lead to 1000fps is also possible. I do find the larger bores seem to lead less w/ softer alloys, JME.

[vinnyg]

[QUOTE=243winxb;630772]vinnyg, For the 357 mag, change powder to Alliant 2400 is all you have to do. QUOTE]



Thank you Guys,
Ok, I found out that it is not pure lead like I thought.

The lead I obtained is what the glass shop uses to make stained glass windows “Glazing”.
It’s “lead came” and I just spoke to the guy and he said it might have a little antimony in it. This makes sense because of the high BHN (12.5) I have gotten. But I also water dropped (quenched) them too, So, I probably have a good alloy then.
I want to load it for 357 using 2400 and H110 but have not done this yet because of the unknown? Don’t want to have the revolver blowup in my face.

And thanks snaggdit it looks and feels like it is addicting!

Vinnyg

[cajun shooter]

What you have is a type of solder as that is what the glass people use. Some 50/50 some 63/37.

[geargnasher]

What you have is a type of solder as that is what the glass people use. Some 50/50 some 63/37.


And some is 60% tin. None that I know of have any antimony or arsenic, though.

Great for alloying, not so great by itself.

Gear

[243winxb]

12.5 BHN with water dropping ? Air cooled at 12.5 would have been OK. Or you did not gain a lot of hardness water droping, as 16-1 or 20-1 gives about 10-11 BHN air cooled. Testing the alloy before water droping would maybe tell you more about the alloy. To water drop to work, you need antimony in the alloy. Try some bullets, see if you get leading with slow powders in the 357mag. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Alloy_20090610_1.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_1.jpg)

[snaggdit]

To water drop to work, you need antimony in the alloy
This is not true. Antimony mixed with tin and lead will make a harder alloy but will not help in water dropping or heat treating. Here is part of an article I copied and pasted off of here months ago. It really clears up the confusion:

The Myth of Arsenic

It has long been common knowledge that heat treat hardening ‘required’ arsenic to be effective. This is often demonstrated by showing that wheel weight alloy will harden after heat treating while linotype won’t. The term catalyst is often used wrongly to define the action of arsenic in hardening. In strict definition a catalyst is a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. Heat treat hardening is not a chemical reaction so the term is not appropriate. So if it isn’t a catalyst, what is it? To answer that, we first need to understand what is really going on in the process of “Heat treating”.

Heat treat hardening really isn’t the appropriate term either. What is actually happening is a process that has long been known as Hall-Petch Strengthening. Hall-Petch Strengthening is a method of strengthening materials by changing their average grain size. Typically, the smaller the grain size, the higher the strength exhibited. It is based on the observation that grain boundaries impede dislocation movement and that the number of dislocations within a grain have an effect on how easily dislocations can traverse grain boundaries and travel from grain to grain. So, by changing grain size one can influence dislocation movement and yield strength. As examples, heat treatment and changing the rate of solidification are ways to alter grain size.

If that last statement sounds familiar, it should, it covers the two most common methods of hardening cast bullets, namely heat treating and water dropping.

Many metals are altered using grain refiners to get the grain size down to 10nm as that produces the greatest strength. Grains larger than 10nm are subject to dislocation slip, grains smaller than 10nm are subject to grain boundary sliding. In the case of Pb-Sb alloys, arsenic acts as a grain refiner and allows us to reduce grain size and thus increase the strength of the alloy.

So there we have it, Arsenic is a grain refiner, not a catalyst.

Grain refiners are chemicals added to a molten metal or alloy to check grain growth and are found in many metallurgical processes. Titanium, carbon, and boron mixtures are commonly used as grain refiners in aluminum casting operations. Vanadium and niobium are commonly used grain refiners in steel manufacture. The most commonly used grain refiners have evolved over the years as improvements have been discovered. For example niobium is a better grain refiner in steel than is vanadium under most circumstances. Vanadium was the accepted norm for years, but is now being replaced by niobium in high stress applications as it yields greater strength.

So, if many different things can be used as grain refiners in aluminum and steel manufacture, why not Pb-Sb alloying. A quick study found that indeed several different materials are grain refiners for Pb-Sb alloys. Amongst these are Arsenic, Copper, Selenium, and Sulfur.

At this point, we can dispel another of the common misconceptions, arsenic is not required for heat treat hardening Pb-Sb alloys. A grain refiner is, one of which is arsenic. Other grain refiners may be substituted for arsenic and may even produce a stronger alloy depending on conditions.

[243winxb]

For the new casters, simply have a bullet of the correct diameter, good beeswax/alox lube, 2% tin with some antimony,air cooled & your good to go. This is where i get my info from. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html Read to the bottom where the chemical makeup of the alloy is listed.
but even when the antimony is eliminated altogether, hardnesses may be substantially increased in the swaged wrought bullets of the invention. < Note here that the key words are "may be" The Hall-Petch Strengthening i have read about, this is why the bullet is the same hardness through out, just not surface harding. I feel that antimony is a key element in harding by water dropping. And that the oven method is the only way to get the same hardness with all bullets treated. Droping from the mould, the bullets are at different temperatures when they hit the water. The time in the mould does not match the time in the over for heat treating. Personally, i will stick with the Lyman method, air cooling with the proper alloy. 2% tin with some antimony and 50/50 bees wax/alox has always worked well. Arsenic seems to be in every lead/bullet alloy where exact testing has been done. Smelting forms Arsenic.The Basis for Compositional Bullet Lead Comparisons http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2002/peters.htm Click on the "table" links

[Gohon]

The wheel weights I cast and air cool always run 11-12 BHN so I think Lyman is wrong there. I also think the old saying the anything above 2% tin is a waste. I know for a fact I can take those same wheel weights and add 5-6% tin and they cast at 13-14 BHN. That same amount of tin added to stick on weights will raise the BHN 1.5 to 2 points. I have done this to many times to accept the above 2% theory. The only time more than 2% is a waste is if you factor in cost or there is a short supply around for you to use. There certainly are cheaper ways to raise the hardness of bullets but above 2% tin will work, to a certain degree, if there are no other means available. BTW, Lead Came is made from Lead with small amounts of other metals such as copper, tin, antimony and bismuth. High quality Lead Came is almost 99% lead.

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=BABore;630753] Since then, 357Max borrowed my mold and won't give it back. He keeps wanting to send me cash or trade goods. He found the same type of accuracy with soft boolits.

QUOTE]


Dang Bruce you make it sound like this is the first time I have held one of your creations hostage. [smilie=1:

I have actually been playing with that boolit in the 357MAXIMUM as a test bed. Using 6bhn range scrap and leaving the barrel about 1000fps with IMRPB in a max case. You see I cannot shoot a revolver as good as some/most/alot of people....there it is out there....I am a sucky iron sighted revolver shot past 50yards. [smilie=1: So I cheat and go closed breech with a scope....which led me to trying that hornady clone in the 35 rem over a dash of unique...getting a pretty good plinker load worked up with that.

YOU HAVE TO MATCH THE speed of the KICK IN THE PANTS WITH THE ALLOY you are using and you can do some pretty kewl things.

[243winxb]

Lead is normally considered to be unresponsive to heat treatment. Yet, some means of strengthening lead and lead alloys may be required for certain applications. Lead alloys for battery components, for example, can benefit from improved creep resistance in order to retain dimensional tolerances for the full service life. Battery grids also require improved hardness to withstand industrial handling.

The absolute melting point of lead is 327.4°C (621.3°F). Therefore, in applications in which lead is used, recovery and recrystallization processes and creep properties have great significance. Attempts to strengthen the metal by reducing the grain size or by cold working (strain hardening) have proved unsuccessful. Lead-tin alloys, for example, may recrystailize immediately and completely at room temperature. Lead-silver alloys respond in the same manner within two weeks.

Transformations that are induced in steel by heat treatment do not occur in lead alloys, and strengthening by ordering phenomena, such as in the formation of lattice superstructures, has no practical significance.

Despite these obstacles, however, attempts to strengthen lead have had some success.

Solid-Solution Hardening

In solid-solution hardening of lead alloys, the rate of increase in hardness generally improves as the difference between the atomic radius of the solute and the atomic radius of lead increases.

Specifically, in one study of possible binary lead alloys it was found that the following elements, in the order listed, provided successively greater amounts of solid-solution hardening: thallium, bismuth, tin, cadmium, antimony, lithium, arsenic, calcium, zinc, copper, and barium.

Unfortunately, these elements have successively decreasing solid-solution solubilities, and therefore the most potent solutes have the most limited solid-solution hardening effects. Within the midrange of this series, however, are elements that, when alloyed with lead, produce useful strengthening.

A useful level of strengthening normally requires solute additions in excess of the room-temperature solubility limit. In most lead alloys, homogenization and rapid cooling result in a breakdown of the supersaturated solution during storage. Although this breakdown produces coarse structures in certain alloys (lead-tin alloys, for example), it produces fine structures in others (such as lead-antimony alloys). In alloys of the lead-tin system, the initial hardening produced by alloying is quickly followed by softening as the coarse structure is formed.

At suitable solute concentrations in lead-antimony alloys, the structure may remain single phase with hardening by Guinier-Preston (GP) zones formed during aging. At higher concentrations, and in certain other systems, aging may produce precipitation hardening as discrete second-phase particles are formed.

Alloys that exhibit precipitation hardening typically are less susceptible to over aging and therefore are more stable with time than alloys hardened by GP zones. Lead-calcium and lead-strontium alloys have been observed to age harden through discontinuous precipitation of a second phase Pb-Ca and Pb-Sr in lead-strontium alloys as grain boundaries move through the structure.

Solution Treating and Aging

Adding sufficient quantities of antimony to produce hypoeutectic lead-antimony alloys can attain useful strengthening of lead. Small amounts of arsenic have particularly strong effects on the age-hardening response of such alloys, and solution treating and rapid quenching prior to aging enhance these effects.

Hardness Stability. For most of the two-year period, the solution-treated specimens were harder than the quench-east specimens. Other investigations have also shown that alloys cooled slowly after casting are always softer than quenched alloys. The alloys with 2 and 4% Sb harden comparatively slowly, and the alloy containing 6% Sb appears to undergo optimum hardening.

Application. Because of the detrimental effect of antimony on charge retention, the effort to reduce antimony contents of the positive plates in lead-acid storage batteries has led to the trend of replacing eutectic alloys with a Pb-6Sb-0.15As alloy. Battery grids made of this arsenical alloy will age harden slowly after casting and air-cooling. However, storing grids for several days constitutes unproductive use of floor space and results in undesirable interruptions in manufacturing sequences.

Although large-scale solution treatment of battery grids might be difficult to justify economically or to achieve without some distortion, quenching of grids cast from arsenical lead-antimony alloys offers an attractive alternative method of effecting improvements in strength. The suitability of quenched grids can be assessed by comparing with the hardness level that battery grids require in order to withstand industrial handling (about 18 HV, the hardness of the eutectic alloy). The alloy containing 2% Sb clearly does not respond sufficiently to be considered as a possible alternative. The 4% Sb alloy, however, attains a hardness of 18 HV after 30 min, and the alloys that contain 6, 8, and 10% Sb could be handled almost immediately.

Dispersion Hardening

Another mechanism for strengthening of lead alloys involves elements that have low solubilities in solid lead, such as copper and nickel. Alloys that contain these elements can be processed so that no homogenization results; most of the strengthening that occurs is developed through dispersion hardening, with some solid-solution hardening taking place as a secondary effect.

The resulting structure is more stable than those developed by other hardening processes. Dispersion strengthening also has been achieved through powder metallurgy methods in which lead oxide, alumina, or similar materials are dispersed in pure lead.

[jdgabbard]

In my experience, the hardness of the alloy usually doesn't make a lot of difference in the .38 spl. I shoot soft boolits (158g Lee TL, 4.2g Unique) , with the Old NRA Lube, and my gun LOVES it. Its a 65 S&W, and groups at about .8" at 25 yards with this load. Each gun is different.

My advice, cast some up, shoot 'em in both .38, and .357 and put the results in writing in your load journal (if you don't have one, you're wrong... I've been using one since I started, and it helps keep track of all my findings. Kinda like a "bank" of my experiences with reloading in general) and learn from your mistakes.