Shorten barrel of gain twist revolver barrel?

[Naphtali]

I have a Pietta M1858 Remington competition grade cap lock revolver that has an eight-inch gain twist barrel. Were I to have the barrel shortened to less than four inches -- from its breech end -- would the barrel retain its inherent accuracy? Would the barrel maintain its ability to stabilize 220-grain .456-inch bullets?

[44man]

I have a Pietta M1858 Remington competition grade cap lock revolver that has an eight-inch gain twist barrel. Were I to have the barrel shortened to less than four inches -- from its breech end -- would the barrel retain its inherent accuracy? Would the barrel maintain its ability to stabilize 220-grain .456-inch bullets?
I kind of doubt it. Going that short also lessons it's ability to burn all the powder in the bore, reducing needed velocity and spin to stabilize the bullet. You have two things against you.

[StarMetal]

I doubt that any cap n ball revolvers burn all their powder, unless it's a very very mininum charge, speaking of BP there. I think your accuracy may seems like it changed because of the shortened distance between the sights. I also feel yes it would stabilize your round ball.

Joe

[runfiverun]

you would change the twist from say 1-20 to 1-30.
ask anybody who has a cut off carcano bbl how accurate they are.

[Naphtali]

you would change the twist from say 1-20 to 1-30.
ask anybody who has a cut off carcano bbl how accurate they are.Final rate of twist remains as it is. When shortening the barrel, the starting rate of twist is what will be altered -- to a quicker starting rate because bullet's passage in the barrel begins forward of where it does now. And the rate of twist is accelerating from breech to muzzle.

[anachronism]

deleted

[runfiverun]

you guy's actually read the question,
proud of y'all

[S.R.Custom]

I have a Pietta M1858 Remington competition grade cap lock revolver that has an eight-inch gain twist barrel. Were I to have the barrel shortened to less than four inches -- from its breech end -- would the barrel retain its inherent accuracy? Would the barrel maintain its ability to stabilize 220-grain .456-inch bullets?

Simply put, you're not doing it any favors. The barrel may retain all of its "inherent accuracy," but probably not. To what extent you'd compromise the barrel's accuracy is debatable. Even though you aren't changing the final twist rate, there are so many other factors to consider-- patch material, alloy, bullet size, groove diameter... you know the drill.

Where you will make a huge negative difference, however, is sight radius.

[shunka]

I have a Pietta M1858 Remington competition grade cap lock revolver that has an eight-inch gain twist barrel. Were I to have the barrel shortened to less than four inches -- from its breech end -- would the barrel retain its inherent accuracy? Would the barrel maintain its ability to stabilize 220-grain .456-inch bullets?

The target grade gain twist Remingtons were built with a specific twist, increasing at a specific rate, in order to achieve the maximum accuracy for that barrel length. It is my understanding that these were specifically built as premium target-grade revolvers, and have won many BP competitions, including some olympic shoots.

To answer the technical question:
you would almost certainly lose accuracy, irregardless of whether you shortened from the breech or the muzzle. You might not notice *as much* accuracy loss using RB. Whether the 220 grain cylinderical would still be stabilized is not certain.

To address the conceptual aspect:
Shortening a Remmy to ~ four inches or so is a fun thing to do. I waited until I was able to trade for a cheap brass framed Remmy .44 and took it down to 4.5" . I have not shot it yet for accuracy. I "hope" to keep it inside a teacup at 15 yards.

I am shortening a *very cheap* Colt 1851 clone pile-o-parts to build a 2.5" - 3" "belly gun", knowing full well that accuracy with be pathetic - typically "minute of coffee can" - and velocity will be reduced to perhaps 500 fps at best. The RB will certainly penetrate 1" of pine but perhaps not much more.


Addressing the practical aspect:
To do justice to quality of this revolver, one would want to involve a skilled smith conversant in the smithing and tuning of BP Remmies specifically. It will not be cheap. Removing the barrel and shortening from the breech end will involve quite a bit of costly lathe work, threading, recutting of the forcing cone, and to ensure absolute concentricity to the bore it will require a tad more setup than many are willing to devote ... often the comment is "hell it's just an Italian BP replica".
This will most likely cost you dearly.

Addressing the philosphical aspect:
The Target Grade Gain Twist Remington is an expensive highly sought after revolver. If one wished to chop a Remmy, there are any number of used Remmies available often for well under $200.

I would equate this project to taking a premium grade 8 3/8" S&W Model 27 target revolver and chopping it to 3", when there are hundreds of S&W Model 28 (same gun, just cheaper fit & finish, and not a hand tuned action) around in 4" and 6" for far less than 1/4 the cost that could be used for the project.

I myself have been guilty of "customizing" something. Was a great idea at the time. and I had a lot of fun. 10 or 15 years later suddenly it's all "collectible and valuable" if left original - and mine is "just another sportster" no matter how well done.

just my 2 bits, it's your toy to do whatever you want to it.

shunka

[Naphtali]

The target grade gain twist Remingtons were built with a specific twist, increasing at a specific rate, in order to achieve the maximum accuracy for that barrel length. It is my understanding that these were specifically built as premium target-grade revolvers, and have won many BP competitions, including some olympic shoots.

To answer the technical question:
you would almost certainly lose accuracy, irregardless of whether you shortened from the breech or the muzzle. You might not notice *as much* accuracy loss using RB. Whether the 220 grain cylinderical would still be stabilized is not certain.

To address the conceptual aspect:
Shortening a Remmy to ~ four inches or so is a fun thing to do. I waited until I was able to trade for a cheap brass framed Remmy .44 and took it down to 4.5" . I have not shot it yet for accuracy. I "hope" to keep it inside a teacup at 15 yards.

I am shortening a *very cheap* Colt 1851 clone pile-o-parts to build a 2.5" - 3" "belly gun", knowing full well that accuracy with be pathetic - typically "minute of coffee can" - and velocity will be reduced to perhaps 500 fps at best. The RB will certainly penetrate 1" of pine but perhaps not much more.


Addressing the practical aspect:
To do justice to quality of this revolver, one would want to involve a skilled smith conversant in the smithing and tuning of BP Remmies specifically. It will not be cheap. Removing the barrel and shortening from the breech end will involve quite a bit of costly lathe work, threading, recutting of the forcing cone, and to ensure absolute concentricity to the bore it will require a tad more setup than many are willing to devote ... often the comment is "hell it's just an Italian BP replica".
This will most likely cost you dearly.

Addressing the philosphical aspect:
The Target Grade Gain Twist Remington is an expensive highly sought after revolver. If one wished to chop a Remmy, there are any number of used Remmies available often for well under $200.

I would equate this project to taking a premium grade 8 3/8" S&W Model 27 target revolver and chopping it to 3", when there are hundreds of S&W Model 28 (same gun, just cheaper fit & finish, and not a hand tuned action) around in 4" and 6" for far less than 1/4 the cost that could be used for the project.

I myself have been guilty of "customizing" something. Was a great idea at the time. and I had a lot of fun. 10 or 15 years later suddenly it's all "collectible and valuable" if left original - and mine is "just another sportster" no matter how well done.

just my 2 bits, it's your toy to do whatever you want to it.

shunkaYou are correct. The competition grade - mine are stainless steel variation of that revolver - is egregiously expensive. You are incorrect that the standard version Piettas are the same revolver, but made to a lesser standard of quality. Possibly grips and grip screws are interchangeable with Pietta's standard 1858. All other parts are distinct. They do not shoot the same diameter projectiles; competition versions shoot .456-inch diameter projectiles. Chambers are different. I cannot get a straight answer on whether nipples interchange.

I have three of these with 12 extra cylinders -- I never said I was smart, just persistent -- and would like to have one of them become a belly gun. While the revolvers might be sought after, I have had mine for almost ten years, two of them with a bunch of cylinders just sitting in storage unfired.

For me to sell/trade any of these would require the person wanting to offer what I cannot imagine. That person could also do business directly with Pietta-Italy as I did. Yeah, it was a migraine headache to get through the nonsense, but it was worth the trouble. In the universe of production revolvers, the competition grade Pietta's fit, finish, and overall quality control compare favorably with Freedom Arms 83s and 97s and Colt Pythons -- very favorably.

A friend who lives in Sumas, Washington, has chopped some cheapy 1858 to a 3-inch barrel. Although he has not yet fixed the loading ram assembly, it is an interesting short gun. With cylinders loaded and primed in belt carrier, interesting would become fascinating. (While I do not know about standard versions of 1858s, the competition grade Pietta retains its cylinder pin with loading ram free. This translates into the ability to swap cylinders nearly as quickly as reloading a revolver with swing-out clyinder via speed loaders.)

There need be nothing done to the lock work. Maintaining barrel-cylinder gap and altering loading ram assembly to function with short barrel is what need be done.

You are correct about cost of barrel shortening. Difficulty of acquiring a replacement from Italy if shortened barrel does not retain acceptable accuracy -- barrels are equivalent to receivers for Italian export purposes -- is the reason for this query. Undoing something that does not work is extremely difficult while my desire for the belly gun if shortening does work is high. . . . Oh well, I guess a butchered revolver [barrel] could become a parts gun.

Ouch.

[shunka]

Ah my dear Naphtali, I am heartened that not only do you know what you have, not only do you value it, you have three! Lately is seems that several of these target revolvers have turned up in the hands of fellow Nimrods (said in the intent of the original meaning) who had no idea what they had fallen into :-)

With this in mind, your project might more properly be compared with a fellow who has three 8 inch Colt Pythons, wishing to make one into a 2 3/4 " carry piece :-)

what you might consider is acquiring a length of .45 colt pistol barrel (ie fast twist such as this:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=952540&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

and have it cut down, threaded, and fitted. In this way your original premium barrel is preserved, and the inexpensive fast twist cartridge barrel will stabilize the your cylinderical bullet. Any fellow who is well versed with a lathe could handle that at little risk to the original parts. The only questions in my mind are the thread dimensions and safe removal of the original barrel, neither of which are rocket surgery :-)
good luck on your project!
shunka

[Naphtali]

Ah my dear Naphtali, I am heartened that not only do you know what you have, not only do you value it, you have three! Lately is seems that several of these target revolvers have turned up in the hands of fellow Nimrods (said in the intent of the original meaning) who had no idea what they had fallen into :-)

With this in mind, your project might more properly be compared with a fellow who has three 8 inch Colt Pythons, wishing to make one into a 2 3/4 " carry piece :-)

what you might consider is acquiring a length of .45 colt pistol barrel (ie fast twist such as this:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=952540&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

and have it cut down, threaded, and fitted. In this way your original premium barrel is preserved, and the inexpensive fast twist cartridge barrel will stabilize the your cylinderical bullet. Any fellow who is well versed with a lathe could handle that at little risk to the original parts. The only questions in my mind are the thread dimensions and safe removal of the original barrel, neither of which are rocket surgery :-)
good luck on your project!
shunkaAHA! So obvious. Why did I not think of this?

[shunka]

I suggested the above barrel since it is designed for .45 colt so it should have a sufficiently fast twist for a pure lead .454 boolit (unlike RB barrels) and the lead boolit will swage itself down easily even if the barrel is for .452. It is reasonably "fat" at .800 at the breech, and you get 12" of barrel to play with for perhaps $25 shipped.

FYI My chopped ASM remmy barrel measures .725 across the flats near the frame, so to grind flats for an octagonal profile of that diameter you would need a blank at least .853" in diam or a tad more... or you could easily leave it round for a Remington Model 1875'ish look :-)

The final considerations of a shortened Remmy are the front sight, loading lever, and the cylinder pin. If you have a stainless frame, you can polish the barrel and leave it white, or plate it with nickle or hard chrome. I find that Brushed Nickle mimicks stainless nicely and can be achieved with a home-plating kit from Caswells http://www.caswellplating.com
http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/Nov03/Feature.htm

The methods to accomodate the front site are as numerous as the people who do it. Some folks replicate the dovetailed "ground round post" of the original, some add a "Colt" style blade, some even use "half a dime" or a piece of a quarter, in order to have a bright silver blade with an already milled sight edge. A piece of coin or other blade can be inlet into a small piece of bright steel dovetailed into the barrel.

The most difficult part for cutting any Remmy shorter than 5.5" is the cylinder rod. Since the loading lever catch blocks the free movement of the cylinder pin, anything shorter that that means the pin is permanently captured unless the latch is removed. Anything shorter than 4- 4.5" means the pin will not be able to clear the cylinder. Amongst the solutions I have seen are leaving off the loading lever and catch (ideal for a barrel 3" or less) , building a hinged cylinder pin, or planning for a removable lever catch (not a good choice IMHO).

Then of course, one must shorten the lever.... In your case I would either modify a different lever or fabricate a new one... or leave it off :-) . If you leave the loading lever off, you will need a latch or some other method to keep the cylinder pin engaged.

I will leave you with a small selection of links showing the efforts of others in this endevour -

First go here and drool:
http://www.alliancelink.com/srrs/photos.htm

Read about the "Ultimate Remington":
http://www.alliancelink.com/srrs/articles/ultrem.htm

Then Learn How to chop it yourself:
http://www.chipengelmann.com/Grips/Remmies.html
http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/Jun03/HowTo.htm
http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/Feb04/Feature.htm
http://www.alliancelink.com/srrs/articles/LilBruiser.htm

here you can see how Halfway Creek Charlie (aka Gunslinger in CAS) cut an 8" bbl, .44 Remington 6shot conversion, with his special hinged cylinder pin that allows a barrel shorter than 5 1/2 "

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300356

and Here is how Wolfgang did it - he kept the "Sail" part of the loading lever to trap the cylinder pin, and while the lever is no longer functional (it is held in place by the mounting screw and does not move) the "remmy look " is preserved :

http://www.drburkholter.com/cf4.html

hope this helps, please keep us posted
shunka

[Naphtali]

I suggested the above barrel since it is designed for .45 colt so it should have a sufficiently fast twist for a pure lead .454 boolit (unlike RB barrels) and the lead boolit will swage itself down easily even if the barrel is for .452. It is reasonably "fat" at .800 at the breech, and you get 12" of barrel to play with for perhaps $25 shipped. . . .

hope this helps, please keep us posted
shunkaThis is like having a conversation with me. Ask me what time it is, and I'll tell you how the watch works.

[shunka]

This is like having a conversation with me. Ask me what time it is, and I'll tell you how the watch works.

Ahhhhh I resemble that remark :-) - I particularly enjoy sharing the wealth of knowledge that has been previously shared with me .

However, it is far more entertaining, (and safer mentally speaking) to converse with you, than to be talking to myself :-)

after relating this thread to My Lovely Spousal Unit she asks " Oh, is he an engineer?"

have fun & best regards
shunka

[Naphtali]

Ahhhhh I resemble that remark :-) - I particularly enjoy sharing the wealth of knowledge that has been previously shared with me .

However, it is far more entertaining, (and safer mentally speaking) to converse with you, than to be talking to myself :-)

after relating this thread to My Lovely Spousal Unit she asks " Oh, is he an engineer?"

have fun & best regards
shunkaA reasonable inference, but not quite accurate. I'm a manuscript editor-book designer with one wall of my computer room devoted to reference materials. I am of the opinion that the worldwide web, when viewed as a reference source, is metaphorically a vast lake -- one inch deep.

[shunka]

Ah my dear Naphtali,
I just saw your thread on "Nickel-******* with .31-caliber cap lock revolvers" , and , since I am vandelizing yet another junker Italian 1858 clone, I was reminded of this project you had. Were you able to follow though ?
yhs
shunka

[Ballistics in Scotland]

you would change the twist from say 1-20 to 1-30.
ask anybody who has a cut off carcano bbl how accurate they are.

Including the Italian military. But the Carcano used a heavy elongated bullet. I am nearly sure that a 30 inch twist would stabilize a round ball, and probably the short conical bullets commonly used in cap and ball revolvers. It would take much less in a rifle, and although velocity does make a difference, it isn't that much. But there is no easy way of being sure, and only one uneasy way. You would have to try it and see what happens.

Using some greatly reduced charges to see what happens at low velocity with the existing barrel might give some useful encouragement or useful discouragement. You would certainly want to avoid coarse grained powder if you do shorten it. But black powder revolvers with short barrel length were considered useful defensive equipment in their day.

[Naphtali]

Still chugging. No results to furnish yet.