Musket Caps vs Percussion Caps

[runnin lead]

I am considering using musket caps lnstead of percussion caps this fall on my .54
for the almost totaly guarenteed ignition. With the hotter ,stronger musket cap is there a tradeoff in accuracy compared to a percussion cap? If so is it verry little or a lot of difference in group size

Tnx Jim

[docone31]

The only musket caps I tried were on my Sharps.
I have heard, both here and at the range, folks went to musket caps, then switched back. Useing the CCI Magnum #11 is a good compromise.

[KCSO]

On what? Some guns can be easily converted to use a musket nipple and corresponding caps and some need a lot of work. A musket cap is still just a cap and the reason for them was not improved ignition but rather the winged cap was easier for a soldier in battle to handle. There is not that much difference in brisiance betweeen the CCI and a standard musket cap so I personally wouldn't bother with changing.

[waksupi]

Ned Roberts said to use the coolest cap that will work, for the best accuracy. That would rule out the musket caps.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I have been using Musket caps on my .54 Hawken and I can't tell any difference in accuracy over CCI and Remington 11's. They are a lot easier to seat and remove than the regular 11's, especially in cold weather. I switched because I got a real good deal on 1K (99 cents per 100) of Musket caps at Wally World on a seasonal close out.

G

[oldhickory]

I don't think he's trying to set any muzzle loading world records here, just wants a primer that's reliable and easy to handle. So yes!...By all means go with the musket cap! I've shot tens of thousands of them in muskets/rifle muskets with no problems what so ever, and any of my rifle muskets will shoot 2" groups all day off the bench with the right load using RWS German musket caps. I've never tried the CCI brand myself, but trust they will go off about the same, the Navy Arms caps are o.k. too. Ease of loading is why I use a .530 ball in my flintlock long rifle rather than a .535, and ease of loading musket caps are what I would use on ANY cap lock rifle if the nipple is available. Remember, the old Parker-Hale Volunteer and Whitworth rifles use musket caps, and look at how many long range muzzle loader records they set!

Just take your time and work up a load you're happy with, just like starting over with a new rifle.

[KCSO]

Wait wait wait, we still don't know what gun this is. If it is for example a CVA rifle you will have to change the nipple and the hammer IF you can find a musket nippple in the right thread. If it is a Lyman great Plains rifle you can swap out just the nipple and open up the hammer nose. I am assuming from the wording of the initial post that the shooter is a tyro and may or may not be able to do the work himself??? If not is the conversion going to be cost effective? Will it make changes on a valuable gun??? I would hate to see another old Bill Large rifle mangled for a small gain in convienience.

[JIMinPHX]

Regular caps always worked fine for me.

[Maven]

runnin lead, Why do you think you need a musket cap? Has your rifle not been 100% reliable in the past, especially when hunting? It seems to me that reliability has more to do with ambient humidity; powder type and moisture content; nipple design; flash channel design (Is there a direct path from bottom of nipple to powder charge?); whether the flash channel is clear of oil, preservatives and/or debris than the source of ignition used. However, this hasn't stopped various manufacturers from selling "100% reliable" percussion caps or sealed systems which use small rifle primers. "Flam N Go," now renamed was an example of the latter. Although it worked well enough, the inconvenience of using it far outweighed any advantage it bestowed. Btw, point of impact didn't change one bit when I tried it. Then too, some inline rifles are sold with different breechplugs so as to allow the use of #209 shotshell primers, #209 primers contained in a plastic disc, musket caps, and #'s 10 or 11 caps, although this has to do more with state conservation (hunting) laws than reliable ignition. My Knight rifle allows these options and, as I had a surplus of #209 primers I tried them with and without discs v. #10 and #11 caps, changing nothing else. Projectiles (roundballs and Maxi-Balls) grouped as they always had, regardless of the type of primer used. Had I used a chronograph, I may have been able to measure differences in velocity and then determine whether those differences were due to chance or not, but I didn't. I will confess though that musket caps and #209 primers in discs are a bit easier to handle with your fingers in cold weather than the #10's and # 11's, but that's why cappers are made. In sum, I'm not convinced that you'll gain much by switching to the "big bang" of a bigger cap. Just some food for thought.

[runnin lead]

The rifle is a .54 T/C Hawken ,a musket cap nipple is available .Over the years I have never missed an elk due to a hang or misfire but I empty out daily when I return to the car in the evening, over the years I have had some non fires , not many, when shooting at a rock before heading home. Cold is usualy not a problem , muzzleloading season is in mid September.In the past I have been using Pyrodex ,easier to get without having to pay hazmat charges, WAS able to get it at Wally World. The gun shop here don't carry BP & don't have much in reloading stuff , what they do have is ( use your imagination ) they want $47.00 for 1 Lb of Alliant Reloader 7 $32 for Varget. Got some Goex 2f this year so I need to work up a load for that,I guess I need to go burn some powder with regular , mag & musket caps & see what happens this weekend.

[frontier gander]

You dont need to change out the hammer on a cva sidelock to use a musket nipple. CVA - Traditions use the same thread 6-1mm.

I like Musket caps due to their size and easy handling over the #11's.

[Boz330]

The rifle is a .54 T/C Hawken ,a musket cap nipple is available .Over the years I have never missed an elk due to a hang or misfire but I empty out daily when I return to the car in the evening, over the years I have had some non fires , not many, when shooting at a rock before heading home. Cold is usualy not a problem , muzzleloading season is in mid September.In the past I have been using Pyrodex ,easier to get without having to pay hazmat charges, WAS able to get it at Wally World. The gun shop here don't carry BP & don't have much in reloading stuff , what they do have is ( use your imagination ) they want $47.00 for 1 Lb of Alliant Reloader 7 $32 for Varget. Got some Goex 2f this year so I need to work up a load for that,I guess I need to go burn some powder with regular , mag & musket caps & see what happens this weekend.


The 209s and magnum caps are more for the BP substitutes than standard BP. BP is not that hard to ignite.
As far as unloading at the end of each day, I never do it. If I don't get a shot during the ML season my gun doesn't get fired till the end, and I've never had a failure to fire. I clean all of the oil from the bore and flash channel before loading. I never fire a cap before loading because that leaves a residue that can attract moisture. Load the gun and you can seal the cap with grease or even nail polish if you like but I have never had a problem in that area, even hunting in rainy weather.
Several years ago when I was guiding in NM I used this method with a new ML hunter and several of the guides that didn't have any or very little ML hunting experience told my hunter his gun wouldn't work when he needed it. As it turned out we hunted the entire week in the rain and fog and worse. Absolutely one of the worst weeks that I ever guided, hadn't been that wet for that long since I was in the Army. At the end of that week on the way in, the hunter wanted to discharge his rifle and see if it would work. It did, no hang fire or hesitation. That was even though I wouldn't let him or any hunter in my
truck without unloading or decapping their firearm.
That very season we had a hunter loose an elk because his guide didn't watch him clean his rifle properly after sight check. Three caps, no bang, no elk, he got tired of the noise and walked off.

Bob

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Ignition problems in a caplock are universally attributable to barrel, flash channel, and nipple maintenance.

BvT

[mooman76]

If you're concerned about moisture you can cut a small piece of aquarium tubing to put over the cap and something like bees wax over that to seal it.

[Marvin S]

If you can get real black powder your troubles will be solved. There is no substitute for black powder. I and many others have been through the same problems. Clean bore and breach with alcohol or lacquer thinner then load. Dont snap any caps. Sealing the cap with bee wax,nail polish is a good idea in damp weather. You can use the pyrojunk for target practice but dont use it to hunt with. It will let you down.

[dominicfortune00]

Remember, the old Parker-Hale Volunteer and Whitworth rifles use musket caps, and look at how many long range muzzle loader records they set!

IIRC, their accuracy was due to their hexagonal bore and matching hexagonal boolits.

Someday I hope to get a Parker Hale Whitworth.

[JIMinPHX]

CVA - Traditions use the same thread 6-1mm.

Some Traditions guns use a 6mm x 0.75 thread on the nipples.

[2shot]

If you can get real black powder your troubles will be solved. There is no substitute for black powder. I and many others have been through the same problems. Clean bore and breach with alcohol or lacquer thinner then load. Dont snap any caps. Sealing the cap with bee wax,nail polish is a good idea in damp weather. You can use the pyrojunk for target practice but dont use it to hunt with. It will let you down.



+1 on this.

I have never had a hang-fire when using real BP but have had it using ALL the substitue BP's.

Like Marvin says, get the real BP and your hang-fires should be over. As far a musket caps vs #11's, I have never noticed a difference just make sure your nipple, vent and chamber are clear of oil and debris.

2shot

[StarMetal]

I wouldn't change to a musket cap, but I would change to a 209 primer...supposedly better...the 209's made for BP by Winchester. I can assure you your muzzleloader is going to go off with a 209.

I have a TC inline with all three ignitions systems and by far the 209 is the better.

Joe

[Geraldo]

A 209 will light just about anything, but there's no way to use them on a TC Hawken.

As long as the nipple is in good shape, switching to black powder should do the trick. I tried Pyro a long time ago in my Renegade and had nothing but problems. In an inline with 209s it worked fine, but not the sidehammers.

[nicholst55]

I switched to musket caps because they're easier to handle, especially with gloves on. I was also experiencing some misfires in my Lyman GPR with the fast-twist barrel (using Goex 2Fg), and the musket caps reduced the frequency of them significantly. I reamed the flash channel out a bit, and that seemed to do the trick.

I switched to a slow-twist round ball barrel, and have yet to experience a misfire with it, except for one while hunting when a fine mist was falling all day - that killed the cap.

A simple expedient to nearly eliminate moisture-related problems is to coat your nipple with clear nail polish. The moisture will run off, rather than wick up into your cap.

If you look around hard enough, you can find 209 shotgun primer conversions for nearly all sidelock rifles. I don't feel the need for one, personally.

[Maven]

If anyone is interested, there is an updated version of the self-contained Flam-N-Go sealed ignition system called Mag-Spark. While the former used small rifle primers, the latter uses #209 shotshell primers. Here's the link to their site: [url]www.warrencustomoutdoor.com[url]

[Potsy]

I just tried a musket cap nipple on my CVA St. Louis Hawken.
The bigger hole was re-cocking the hammer to full cock for me.
I can't really believe that it's good for the gun,(no real need for a "semi-auto" muzzleloader) so, I'll go back to #11's.
I do shoot Musket caps in my Knight under black powder. I don't shoot it and clean it every night during season. It get's loaded and stays that way until the end of the season or something walks in front of it. Never had a problem with black powder but would get a hangfire with pyrodex pellets due to the back end of the pellets being at least 1" from the front of the nipple. I killed a couple of deer with them but went back to black. No problems since.
That gun is a real pain with #11's and I always had a hard time getting 11's to seat well enough on the nipple and missed a couple of opportunities because of that. Musket caps have worked very well and always provided minute of deer accuracy.

[405]

I assume your 54 is a traditional side lock? If so... no advantage to musket cap other than ease of handling to re-cap. Interesting to note that some top BPCR shooters use an over-primer thin paper wad to "ease" or lessen primer ignition impulse. Some top smokeless jbullet benchrest shooters use the mildest primer that gives the most consistent ignition shot to shot. I can see the advantage with musket caps for adverse conditions, fake black powders or with some inlines but for best accuracy when the gun, nipple and flash channel are maintained and kept clean..... the CCI # 11 is about as good as any for use with blackpowder.