thoughts on cast bullet thread??

[txpete]

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16427

[Char-Gar]

I hang out over there at time, but with the exception of Paco..nobody is deep into cast bullets for much other than blasting away cheaply. There is one fellow who uses black powder and solt cast, but that is another issue.

The reason many folks pan cast bullets for hunting is they expect cast bullet to do what jacketed bullets do and game to react the same way. Hunting with cast bullets requires a different mind set with different expectations, and the folks don't have it and get unhappy with cast bullets when the problem in not in the rifle, but between their ears.

[454PB]

This gentleman needs to read more Elmer Keith, and do a little more experimenting and research.

[Dale53]

It is interesting to note that both Elmer Keith and Roberts picked the Sharps .45 as having the most killing power of any rifle out there.

I have little big game experience with cast bullets. All of it has been on deer with handguns. However, I HAVE been in on the "autopsies" of probably 40 or more bears and many deer. I learned quite a bit by actually getting "wet" and paying attention to detail. I have been extremely satisfied with my deer kills with the .44 magnum and cast bullets. With a handgun and cast bullets, I want the biggest meplat available and want to shoot clear through the animal from any angle. I expect a short trail (35-100 yards) and have learned to track. I DON'T expect the animal to fall at the shot (of course, with head and spinal shots that IS the result).

It IS easier to get good results with jacketed bullets today vs cast bullets (you don't have to know much). However, if any care to do a bit of research, you will find that in the early days of jacketed bullets there were MANY failures and some lost their lives as a result.

If you are going to use cast bullets on game, you had better do a bit of homework and had better be prepared to cast your own to the specifications that you need for the job at hand.

Let us not forget the most important aspect of hunting with BOTH cast and jacketed - where you HIT!

FWIW
Dale53

[txpete]

thanks guys.I have never shot anything but deer with cast out of 44 and 375 win and never had a runner.never shot any big animals so just wanted to see what some of you guys were thinking on the subject that might have.thought it strange that his bullets had deflected on impact with his cast loads??.maybe those commerical cast were just to hard??.just trying to learn something here.
pete

[Larry Gibson]

....If you are going to use cast bullets on game, you had better do a bit of homework and had better be prepared to cast your own to the specifications that you need for the job at hand.

FWIW
Dale53

"ALSO THE CAST BULLET MADE COMMERCIALLY TEND TO BE TO HARD.... THE NOSES NEED TO BE DETEMPERED, SO THEY ARE SOFT AND THE BODY OF THE CAST BULLET IS HARD.... PACO"

I think you and Paco hit the X ring. The use of the hard cast WFNGCs have their place I guess. I like WC style bullets for their killing power on small game and soft skinned game. On the large game as mentioned in the thread the fellow appears to have forgotten that penetration is first and formost essential. The WFNGC bullets or WC style do not give good straight line penatration in my experience and as that fellow found out. I'd bet a RNFP cast hard with the nose detemped as Paco says would have done him well.

As a LEO in NE Oregon I have dispatched several critically injured elk with the Lee 510 gr RNFPGC bullet cast hard with the nose detempered pushed at 2050 fps out of my Siamese Mauser. I have shot the elk end to end and had the bullets exit in pretty much a straight line from point of entry. I got two boxes of the famed Garret loads with the WFNGC bullets and never had such results with them. I'll stick with the Lee bullet for that job. The WFNGC bullets did not cut it. The fellow is condeming cast bullets in general when he made a poor choice in the type and style of bullet to use.

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

The name Paco Kelly is not one I've seen in a very long time . I used to really enjoy reading about his experiments with the 357 case necked down to thirty caliber .

Jack

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good comments here. I think you do have to "shift gears" in your thinking when you hunt with cast boolits. Compared to the j-words, they work in different ways and require adaptation of hunting methods to their needs and limitations. This coming deer season, I have committed to using ONLY cast boolits on the local hunt in the mountains surrounding my home. Rifles will include the Win '73 x 44-40 (iron sights) and the CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62 (scoped). Handguns will be the Bisley Blackhawk x 45 Colt and the S&W M-1026 in 10mm. Early results with the RCBS 200 grain boolit in 10mm at 1100 FPS are quite promising.

This local hunt will be my "second tag" in CA. First tag attempt will be for the Eastern Mojave, and it's a tough draw. The much longer shots in this environment justify the flatter trajectories that jacketed rifle bullets enable, and a sidearm is used on one's belt mainly to balance the canteen's weight on the other side.

[stardate2010]

If I read the article right, he used a cast bullet 300gr in a 45/70 and wondered why it deflected. My question to him, that didn't get submitted, was what would the Hammerhead 540's have done in the same situation?
I think he used a too light a bullet to get the job done, when a 500gr hard cast bullet would have gone thru the shoulder blade and kept on going???
I have not shot the hammerheads yet but will as soon as I get my break and get home to try out my new(to me) 1895CB. I also wonder why they didn't use heavy bullets for everything over there? Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it syndrome...
Just my 2cents worth.:confused:

[45 2.1]

A 300 gr. boolit in the 45-70 is too light to required to punch heavy bone regardless of the material its made of. A lot of folks have found that out on Elk also. These ammunition assemblers need to use the proper stuff. Test the darn thing, match the projectile to the job you want it to do. Alloy a cast boolit to do the job. Hard cast is not a end-all to all questions or answers.

[MGySgt]

IMHO -

45 cal, 400 plus grains, 65-70% meplate @ 1500 FPS, BRN 10-14 will kill cleanly just about anything we are going to hunt in North America. It will also kill just about (Buff elephant?) anything in Africa too!

We, the shooters still have to get the bullet into the boiler room. I have no doubt the above load will break the shoulders of an Elk.

Just my Opinion and 2cents worth.

Drew

[robertbank]

Just another take on all of this but we also have to remember attitudes have changed significantly since the 1880's. Today we talk about clean kills and humane kills etc. Driving Buffalo off of cliffs to kill them at one time was considered quite acceptable. Shooting them at long distances and waiting for them to stagger around and die also was OK at one time. Can't imagine doing that same thing today. You would have every animal rights activist on your lawn in a heartbeat.

I started hunting back in the late 50's and attitudes, perhaps not to that extreme have changed as we all become more civilized (urbanized might be a better term).


I plan on using my cast boolits on local Columbian Black Tail population later this year.

Take Care

[Bret4207]

This is out of my territory, but why do I read about guys using 275-310 gr boolits in 45 Colts and punching clean through an elk and this guys 300 gr 45/70 shouldn't be expected to do it? Sounds like someones stretching something someplace.

[9.3X62AL]

Regardless of caliber, my big game hunting with handguns ends at deer. Any elk I get lucky enough to put sights on will be taken with a rifle. A cast 400 grain+ flat nose from the 45-70 would be fine, but I brought along the 9.3 x 62 with NosParts at 286 grains for that quarry this past season.

Having made a tactical retreat from a pissed-off black bear with a Redhawk x 44 Magnum once, that was enough handgun entertainment of that category for yours truly--I bought the CZ x 9.3 within a month of that little furry interlude. I'm all for striped bass on light tackle, if that's what excites you--but applying that methodology to the game fields won't always yield good results, and could get your aspiratons kicked but good in the bargain.

[MGySgt]

This is out of my territory, but why do I read about guys using 275-310 gr boolits in 45 Colts and punching clean through an elk and this guys 300 gr 45/70 shouldn't be expected to do it? Sounds like someones stretching something someplace.

They push the 300 grain 45/70 too fast and the bullet will break up on heavy bone.

Drop that velocity back down to 1100-1200 FPs and see what happens!

Also remember the alloy - too hard from antinioum (sp?) makes a cast boolit brital, especially when you bring in cold temps. Where that percentage is I do not know. I just know that my alloy for hunting is 10-11 BRN air cooled.

If you want hard - heat treat them.

I freeze a few of my bullets and a few days later I will put them on a steel plate and hit them with a sledge hammer. Hard ones, from too much antinioum will fracture and break apart. Take a 10 BRN and heat treat it to 20+ BRN and it will mushroom - Been there done that! Got my Elk with it too!

I will take my Sharps in 45/90, 430 gr 70% FP at 1475 again this year to Colorado on my Elk hunt. If the Gods smile upon me and I get a shot (under 200) I know my load and bullet will do the job, if I do mine and put the bullet where it belongs.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Drew

[waksupi]

He got the performance he bargained for, by not bothering to learn about proper velocity and cast bullets for hunting, before using them on game.

[KCSO]

MGySgt
Right on target, at least thats what my autopsies on dead buffalo tell me. I have 9 calibers from 30-30 to 12 Ga. trade gun and so far the fp 45 flat points from 1-20 are the best killers. A 400 1-20 will go through the skull and break 3 neck bones and lodge in the shoulder. Side to side it leaves a good big hole on the far side. I am cleaning a buff skull right now with a big 45 cal hole in it. I have run the velocity up to 1800 and really see no need for anything over 1500 for any animal in this country.

[45 2.1]

The last three posts show that some of us know what is going on with boolits, loads and alloying. Good advise guys.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, thanks to all for the comments on this thread. I've yet to take my first deer with cast, but hope to this coming season, and these comments got my attention.

[Ranch Dog]

txpete... I saw this over on MarlinOwners also and all I've got to say is hogwash!

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Nilgai_Kill_450x338.jpg

This critter is about as tough as it get. This is the nilgai from coastal India/Pakistan.The four ranches in Texas that are home for this free ranging critter all require a belted magnum of 30 caliber or greater. It took me a year to convince one ranch that my 444 Marlin with cast bullets would knock the snot out of it and it did. Take a look at the picture. I shot it at an angle up, low through the front of one shoulder and out the aft edge of the opposite shoulder. The near leg was extended aft and the far leg was extended foward as it walked along. As it passed through the body the heart was destroyed.

I've got to say that when I showed up at the ranch, I had my doubts. Driving the 10 miles back to the headquarters, I saw a bunch of these "Blue Bulls" and really began to doubt my rifle and bullet. Once at the headquarters, we had to shoot and the smallest cartridge (other than my 444) being shot by the other hunters was a 338WM. While out moving through the brush, we found the carcass of a nilgai that had been shot with a 338WM the week prior that had not been recovered. The bones were picked clean and so I was able to see the skeleton and I figured I was OK. The bulls are big but that bullet delivers a lot of energy.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/TLC432%20vs%20Nilgai.jpg

This is my bullet. It was hung up in the hide of the opposite shoulder. It is cast with 1/1 WW/Linotype and cold water quenched. This bullet weighed 265-grains and left my 444T at a flat 2400 FPS. The nilgai was 120-yards away at the shot. I kill at least a dozen big game animals a year. All but one in the last two years with cast bullets. I'll say it again. Hogwash!

[txpete]

sure looks like that bullet did just fine to me.excellent pics.
I have only shot deer with cast bullets so far(oops 1 coyote) with my 375 win and 44 mag marlin.never had a runner.the lyman 264 gr gc is like hitting them with a brick.
the coyote did a back flip when hit with a 405 lfn out of my marlin 45/70.
again many thanks
pete

[Bret4207]

Ah, thanks. Now I see what the problem was. Hadn't considered the velocity and alloy issue.

[6pt-sika]

I hang out over there at time, but with the exception of Paco..nobody is deep into cast bullets for much other than blasting away cheaply. There is one fellow who uses black powder and solt cast, but that is another issue.

The reason many folks pan cast bullets for hunting is they expect cast bullet to do what jacketed bullets do and game to react the same way. Hunting with cast bullets requires a different mind set with different expectations, and the folks don't have it and get unhappy with cast bullets when the problem in not in the rifle, but between their ears.


I spend a fair amount of time on www.leverguns.com and www.marlinowners.com .

And now the majority of the shooting I do with rifles is with cast bullets . And its not to save money . I shoot a lot of older Marlin's and most all of the Cowboy Marlin's . And I just don't think it's correct to shoot jacketed in these guns. Furthermore I have come to enjoy casting bullets . Its almost as enjoyable for me to acquire a old Ideal mold that is useful to me as it is to acquire another rifle.:-D

So you'll understand if I take offense at your statement :castmine:

[txpete]

been casting for for about 30 years.it is funny how some think a 350 gr 45/70 bullet at 1400 fps with a bhn 12-14 will just bounce off game:-D .
I guess I never read the spread sheets but there is lots of venison in the freezer.
pete

[Four Fingers of Death]

Because he sure is one homely, ugly sob! Good shooting.

Most folk I know who aren't dedicated casters try and get cast to work as much like J/bs as possible. Make em' as hard as you can, and drive them as hard as you can, bad idea, but this is the normal approach.

Just hard enough, just fast enough. Max whack, max expansion, min dramas.