The Fouling Shot

[Dale53]

I am a member of the Cast Bullet Association (I know that many others here are probaably, also). At any rate, I received my current copy of the "Fouling Shot" the magazine of CBA yesterday. It was really good to see that there was a new article written by one of my favorite people, C.E. Harris (he and I haven't met, I just know him through his many helpful articles over the years).

His article talked about "Practical Reloading". His favorite field guns are a revolver (that is something else we share, we are both "Revolver Men") and a matching rifle chambered in .38 Special (or .357 magnum). It is an interesting read.

His "standard" load is a full wadcutter load in both rifle and revolver. He suggests NOT sizing the case at all. He also uses the bullets as cast and relies on the Lee Factory Crimp Die to both size the bullet and the case after it is loaded. He loads the wadcutter to full tilt (for the .38 Special, not Plus P) as he has found better accuracy than the target velocity.

To me it all sounded just a bit "radical". However, after thinking on it, it makes sense and I believe that I will try it. C.E. "Ed" Harris has never lead me astray. I have ordered a Lee Factory Crimp Die for my .32 H&R magnum and will give it a whirl for my "two gun comination" woods walker- S&W revolver and TC Carbine with custom J.D. Jones (SSK) barrel.

Dale53

[utk]

Very interesting! Did he say anything about whether the ctg is sized down any in the bottom sizing ring? Or is he just rollcrimping the casemouth to keep the bullet from "falling out?
Wouldn't it be possible to just use your regular seating die, crimp included? Of course one would have to check that the ctg really chambers before the crimp is applied.

Urban

[45 2.1]

In the 38 Special/ 357 mag., you can do just about the same thing useing a 38 super/38S&W carbide sizer to size your brass. Very little is holding the boolit when you do this and there is no problem, other than it fitting snugly, with chambering.

[Dale53]

Apparently, the Lee Factory Crimp Die sizes the case, the bullet, and crimps in one fell swoop. It sounds attractive to me. However, as they say, "The proof is in the puddin'". So, we'll see. After I get my LFCD, I'll try it and report.

By the way, I will be giving my "Woods Rambler Rifle" its first outing tomorrow (TC Carbine with SSK barrel in .32 H&R Magnum AND, don't forget the AND, the .314x120 group buy bullet. I will also be trying the same in the 16-4 S&W K-32.

Dale53

[MT Gianni]

What I found interesting is that he loads the ww cast wadcutter to a faster speed vs the swedged store bought wc at 2.7 gr bullseye. Fit the psi to the bullet hardness, how many times do we have to hear it to learn it. Gianni.

[Dale53]

I truly do not know why we have been so slow to realize what a great small game load the wadcutter bullet is. I have been hunting "wabbits" with wadcutters for many years. I have yet to lose one and I have yet to have to shoot one more than once. It IS true that they do not shoot well past 50 yards, but I have little need for that when hunting small game. My typical shot is 25 yards or less. I tend to carry a revolver when hunting grouse with a shotgun (where it is allowed). I have, on occasion, knocked a grouse down with a shotgun, and used the hand gun to dispatch them. I HATE to shoot a bird twice with a shotgun. After all, to EAT is the game:mrgreen: (or to eat the GAME is the game, or ..... you get the idea:-D ). A grouse, when wounded but mobil will keep just ahead of you on the ground and then duck into a near impenetrable briar patch for safety. However, they will almost always let you get close enough that you can easily shoot their heads off with a revolver (.32 or .38 wadcutter is near perfect for the job).

Way back when Ed McGivern wrote his great book, "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" he advocated the wadcutter at full .38 special velocity (NOT the target load). Little has changed since those long ago days (the rabbits are still the same size and turkeys are proper game for wadcutters where allowed, etc).

Dale53

[Slowpoke]

I truly do not know why we have been so slow to realize what a great small game load the wadcutter bullet is. I have been hunting "wabbits" with wadcutters for many years. I have yet to loose one and I have yet to have to shoot one more than once. It IS true that they do not shoot well past 50 yards, but I have little need for that when hunting small game. My typical shot is 25 yards or less. I tend to carry a revolver when hunting grouse with a shotgun (where it is allowed). I have, on occasion, knocked a grouse down with a shotgun, and used the hand gun to dispatch them. I HATE to shoot a bird twice with a shotgun. After all, to EAT is the game:mrgreen: (or to eat the GAME is the game, or ..... you get the idea:-D . A grouse, when wounded but mobil will keep just ahead of you on the ground and then duck into a near impenetrable briar patch for safety. However, they will almost always let you get close enough that you can easily shoot their heads off with a revolver (.32 or .38 wadcutter is near perfect for the job).

Way back when Ed McGivern wrote his great book, "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" he advocated the wadcutter at full .38 special velocity (NOT the target load). Little has changed since those long ago days (the rabbits are still the same size and turkeys are proper game for wadcutters where allowed, etc).

Dale53

You ever try ol CE's 45 auto shotshells on those wabbits. I know I kill a lot of these eastern cottontails with them on my place, pretty amazing little shotshells. I have folded up a many a one at 25 paces with them.

Neat thing is they will feed and function just like your regular loads, I have been making them for around four years now, I feel they are perfect for this eastern (populated) environment.

*************************************

ON useing the factory crimp die as a time saver it works provided your as cast bullet is large enough to stay put in the fired case, and you can live with a 357 -358 diameter bullet. I have loaded what I call my blasting ammo like that since about day one of the factory crimp dies birth.

When I lived in AZ I had a machinist friend lap out the carbide sizer ring on one die so it would leave me with a .3595 bullet for my Win.94 .

Good luck

[Dale53]

Slowpoke;
I have a file of Ed Harris' articles, which includes the .45 Auto Shot Cartridge. However, the article I have is a summation and leaves out some details. I wonder if you might have the original article (appeared in the American Rifleman)? I had completely forgotten about that article, so appreciate the "heads up".

However, I will probably just use them while hiking in snake country. I normally use only revolver cartridges for rabbits as my wife prefers a single hole in her rabbits. Now, just to set the record straight, I do not shoot running rabbits with a revolver. I shoot them sitting and of course, that limits my productivity. However, It DOES elevate the level of sport, and I LIKE that:mrgreen: .

If you are a competent pistoleer, (absolutely do NOT have to be world class - I certainly am not), a rabbit is really a rather large target. If I am close, I shoot them in the head. However, if they are farther away, a wadcutter through the "slats" is an immediate "stopper" and the target is generous. Further, no meat is wasted. All rabbits from cottontails to snowshoe rabbits are valid targets for the handgun. When you speak of table game, freedom from biting down on a piece of shot is a definite advantage:drinks: .

I would like that copy of the American Rifleman article on the .45 shot cartridge if anyone has it.

Dale53

[Junior1942]

Dale, here's my article on the 44 mag shotshell:

http://www.castbullet.com/reload/44shot.htm

[7br]

Dale, here's my article on the 44 mag shotshell:

http://www.castbullet.com/reload/44shot.htm

Dagnabbit, Its not like I don't have a ton of overdue projects already. Now I need to make some .41 mag shotshells. I need to see what type of shot my brother has on hand. I think I might have some #5. We might see if it would work on squirrels close up.

[Dale53]

JUnior;
Thanks for the info. I'll keep it bookmarked.

Dale53

[Larry Gibson]

What I found interesting is that he loads the ww cast wadcutter to a faster speed vs the swedged store bought wc at 2.7 gr bullseye. Fit the psi to the bullet hardness, how many times do we have to hear it to learn it. Gianni.

I don't think matching the bullet hardness to the psi is the issue here. The issue is the store bought swaged WCs, both Hornady and Speer, are HBWCs. I've shot a lot of both in several .32 cal revolvers and most .30 and .31 cal rifles. Anything over 2.1 gr Bullseye in either .32S&WL or .32 H&R Magnum and the skirts bulge badly or split open on bullet exit causing poor accuracy. A cast WC with a plain base can be driven as fast as its SWC or RN counterpart of equal alloy with the same level of accuracy out to 50 yards. The WC is the most efficient killer of the 3. However, depending on barrel tiwst, the WC will get unstable somewhere past 50yards. This hold true regardless of revolver cartridge.

When used in rifles the swaged HBWCs shoot well up through 850 fps out to 75 yards or so. I pretty much use 2.7 gr Bulleseye in 7.62x39 up through .308 Win case capacity wise. I use 3 gr Bullseye in the 7.62x54R up through the '06 including the 7.65 and the .303. I also use these same charges with the 90 gr swaged Hornady SWC or it's counterpart the Lee 314-90-TL. the SWCs feed much better in the rifles but I don't hesitate to buy the Speer or Hornady WCs when on sale.

It is a case of HB vs PB not psi vs alloy hardness.

Dale53

I discovered the use of WCs for hunting from a short series of bantering articles years ago between Nonte, Jordan and Skelton. I think it was Jordan who mentioned carrying a S&W Chiefs Special in his coat pocket loaded with WCs for shooting brush bunnys around old abandoned ranch buildings. Said he always carried a little salt and pepper and roated them up on a fire for a quick lunch. Of course Nonte and Skeeter jumped in their with some good information and of some tongue in cheek comments. Got lots of good info from them old guys. Any way I had lots of WCs (they were issued monthly by the PD I was working for) and promply went rabbit and squirrel shooting with my 5" M15. Marvelous time and from my other writings (recently about making WCs using Lyman GCs for rifles using regular moulds most of us already have) you are aware I really prefer WCs for small game. The exception being shooting grouse with cast bullets. A good RN (.22 through .45 cal) at under 800 fps will slipp through the body, kill them quick and damage little meat.

Larry Gibson

[Dale53]

Larry;
Good info. One thing that I might mention regarding grouse. In Eastern Ohio, you will NOT find grouse waiting around in a tree for you to pop it with a pistol. They are spooky almost beyond belief. They are real sporting with shotguns. That same dern bird in bear country in Ontario Canada is dumber than a rock. I actually saw a timber cutter kill them with rocks. You could fill a bushel basket with a good sling shot. Same bird, different environment. When I talk about grouse, it is the spooky kind. I only use the handgun on them after they have been wounded. Then it is a VERY practical tool for the job.

Good discussion.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[RugerFan]

Dale, here's my article on the 44 mag shotshell:

http://www.castbullet.com/reload/44shot.htm

Good article. A looong time ago I used to make my own .44 mag shot shells using the gas check method. Pre-sized them in a Lee push through sizer before installation (one below the shot and one above, then a good roll crimp to hold it all in place). I used #7 1/2 shot because it was the smallest thing I had at the time. Propellent was 700X and Unique (I forget the weights). This worked well for squirrels and snowshoe hare up to 20 or 30 feet. Sometimes a gas check would make a nice round cut out in a bunnies ear as well.

[Dale53]

A REAL shot pistol, of course, is the TC 45/410. I have one and it will pattern at 25 yards as good as a "real" shotgun (.410). That sounds like a bogus claim but it IS realistic. It is also a lot of fun on the skeet range. The scores are not high but a good man can do amazing things with one.

However, for some reason, I generally will be found in the field with a revolver with bullets...

Dale53

[Blackwater]

Dale, FWIW, I used to shoot some of those full WC's at full velocity, and I don't know if I read this somewhere, or just figured it out myself, but those HBWC's are soft, as mentioned above, and can't be hotrodded much unless you load them backwards. I tried that, and didn't like the results. Somewhere I saw the WC's recommended with full loads, and tried them in both .38 and .357, and they shot and performed really well.

I think the HBWC's are extra long, owing to that hollow base, and the combo of slow velocity and long bullet makes them marginally stable, except for the "sock with sand in the toe" effect of that hollow base. Take a PBWC, though, and cast it of WW's or the like, and you can heat it up, and the higher velocity and shorter bullet seem to combine to make them accurate beyond 50 yds. I never did much long range shooting when I was doing this, so don't recall what they shot like at ovr 100, but IIRC, they did OK out to at least 75 yds. or so.

I was more enamored of velocity and liked expansion back then, so usually used a SWC or the Lee 150 HP's (actual wt. 142 gr. nominal). I thought the 150 HP was a "better bullet" back then, but don't recall ever testing the two against each other at all, much less at distance.

Glad you posted this. I've got a M-19 in the works, being e-nickled and round butted before the trade, and I probably need to check this out in it. Wish I could remember more about my use of them, but I didn't use a terrible lot of them. More of an experiment, really, and they just weren't "sexy" enough for me back then. Would appreciate a follow up report when you get your round tuit.

[Dale53]

Back in my salad days, I was deeply immersed in IPSC when it was a martial art. I shot two of the "Soldier of Fortune" three gun matches and met some "most interesting fellows". One unforgettable one was Jim Cirrillo. Jim was a National Champion PPC shot and ran the New York City Stakeout Squad. Jim has been in more real gunfights than you have fingers and toes. He stated to me that there is no such thing as "complete stopping power". He has seen men shot, point blank, with a twelve gauge and Brenneke slugs in the torso and run off. Now, they died, but nonetheless they ran off first. He said nothing was better than a .38 Special full power wadcutter in the right eye... After Jim retired from the New York City Police Dept. he went to work for the Feds as a firearms instructor. The Feds were lucky to have him as a valued employee. Impressive fellow and a wonderful "raconteur".

So-o-o, not only are the wadcutters at full velocity (solid ones, I might add) good for small game, but they are also quite good for "serious purposes". Plus, when and if (God forbid) you become involved in a righteous shoot, you can tell the scumbag's att'y in court that you only had target loads in your revolver...:drinks:

Dale53

[Jumptrap]

Back in my salad days, I was deeply immersed in IPSC when it was a martial art. I shot two of the "Soldier of Fortune" three gun matches and met some "most interesting fellows". One unforgettable one was Jim Cirrillo.

He said nothing was better than a .38 Special full power wadcutter in the right eye...
Dale53

HAR! I am of the opinion that a BB to the right eye would end 99.9% of aggression right on the spot! As in 'OH, F**K', bend over double, grab your eyeball and cry for momma.

[KCSO]

Unfortunately the bb leaves a live body to sue!

[6pt-sika]

Glad to see there's another CBA member here :drinks:


I to have written a few articles last year in The Fouling Shot . Although everything I have written pretains to Marlin lever actions and hunting (deer and squirrel ) .

[Dale53]

6pt-sika;
I am also a fan of Marlin lever actions. I have mentioned here before that I have a 25/20, a 30/30, and a 45/70. I have not shot the 30/30 but have worked extensively with the 25/20 and 45/70 (if a feller is a cast bullet shooter and has a 25/20 and a 45/70 why a 30/30? Dunno' - seemed a good idea at the time:) ).

The 25/20 is an awesome squirrel rifle (257420 gc ahead of 4.0 grs of unique).

The 45/70 is just simply "Awesome":mrgreen:!!

Dale53

[6pt-sika]

6pt-sika;
I am also a fan of Marlin lever actions. I have mentioned here before that I have a 25/20, a 30/30, and a 45/70. I have not shot the 30/30 but have worked extensively with the 25/20 and 45/70 (if a feller is a cast bullet shooter and has a 25/20 and a 45/70 why a 30/30? Dunno' - seemed a good idea at the time:) ).

The 25/20 is an awesome squirrel rifle (257420 gc ahead of 4.0 grs of unique).

The 45/70 is just simply "Awesome":mrgreen:!!

Dale53


Dale look in the March-April 2005 issue (#174) I have a article in there about centerfire squirrel rifles.
I worked up loads for 218 Bee , 25-20 , 32-20 and 357 MAG.

Also had an article in the Jan. -Feb. 2005 issue about the Marlin 1892 in 32 Long Colt . Used this one for a couple squirrels as well. :-D