Hunting Bullet for 45 Auto Rim

[only1asterisk]

I'm looking for a 250-280 grain bullet design with a nice wide meplat that carries as much of its weight outside the case as possible (in order to conserve powder space). If no such animal exist, I looking for ideas on a practical design for such a beast.

David

[Lloyd Smale]

one of the best would be the lyman 452424

[Bass Ackward]

I'm looking for a 250-280 grain bullet design with a nice wide meplat that carries as much of its weight outside the case as possible (in order to conserve powder space). If no such animal exist, I looking for ideas on a practical design for such a beast.

David


David,

Dad always did the reverse bullet trick for the few that he needed to hunt with. Then they pretty much all have the same meplat.

[chunkum]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/CastBullets-Data/Three45Keiths.jpg
The last bullet on the right is likely most suited to what you're looking for. Unfortunately, it's from an old Ohause mould purchased back in the 70's and I've not seen another since. I drops at close to 270 grs though the box it came in stipulated 255 grs. It shoots pretty good in my old 1917. I'd be glad to send you a few if you wanted to get the dimensions and have it copied.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[GLL]

Chunkum:

I have been searching for that Ohaus mould for the last year and a half without success !

I recently sent Mountain Moulds an order to try and duplicate it only to find he is not taking orders right now due to a move.

It ios a great looking bullet for Auto-Rim. ! :) :)

Jerry

[Doughty]

What gun(s) do you plan to shoot them in? Have you gotten the specs from it yet; groove diameter, throat diameter, cylinder length, etc?

[Dale53]

Since most Auto Rim revolvers are not known for strength, and the case has very limited capacity, I would think that the previously mentioned Lyman 452424 would be about an optimum chioce - the best combination of meplat size, weight, and velocity. It is a really good bullet for the task. Ol' Elmer did us proud with that one, IMHO.

Dale53

[chunkum]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/OhausKeithType.jpg

Here's the orginal box if you want to try to find more info on it. It is definitely NOT a 255 gr bullet as labeled. It's wide meplat, long ogive, and short inside the brass base make it a perfect candidate for the .45 Auto Rim when a long heavy bullet is desired.
c.

[NVcurmudgeon]

only1*, with heavy boolits in some .45 AR revolvers, you may have to make a new higher front sight in order to be able to get the pistol sighted in. I tried some Lyman 452190 250 gr. boolits in a S&W 1950 Target Model. It shot very high, even with the rear sight lowered all the way. I made a front sight from a freeze plug that looked like a can opener!

[GLL]

Chunkum:

Private Message on the way ! :)

Jerry

[only1asterisk]

Vic,

I've got a Model 25 at the gunshop waiting for the first of the month.

David

[ktw]

I also would be interested in the technical measurements and/or a group buy for a bullet similar to the Ohaus slug in Chunkum's picture. Both my ACP guns are strong single action revolvers.

-ktw

[45 2.1]

I also would be interested in the technical measurements and/or a group buy for a bullet similar to the Ohaus slug in Chunkum's picture. Both my ACP guns are strong single action revolvers.

-ktw

If someone would send me some as cast boolits, I could draw one up.

[sundog]

I don't see why the Lee 255 RF wouldn't work. I mention this, because I have a Colt 1917 and the bore is larger than my S+W and didn't shoot right until I tried some of the Lee 255 RF from an older SC that actually drop .454+. Even from the pitted bbl in the Colt they shoot purdy good. My 6-cavity 255 RF drops at .452. There's nothing wrong with that design with it's HUGE meplat if you can get it to shoot. The Lee 200 RF might be a better choice as the crimp groove is closer to the base thus allowing more powder space (lees boolit in the case) and it shoots purdy good too (doesn't work in my Colt because its only .452). Just thinking out loud. I like the Lee 6-bangers for pissola boolits. sundog

[45 2.1]

Another boolit that is ideal for the 45 AR is the Lyman-Thompson 452490. Its a 230 gr. approx. weight SWC GC. Loaded with Unique, it shoots very well in the wheel guns and in the ACP case does great in autos.

[Larry Gibson]

Another boolit that is ideal for the 45 AR is the Lyman-Thompson 452490. Its a 230 gr. approx. weight SWC GC. Loaded with Unique, it shoots very well in the wheel guns and in the ACP case does great in autos.

I have used the same 452490 bullet with Unique for years in numerous .45 ARs includung a couple M25s. It is the best performer for accuracy and hunting. I tried the heavier, up through a 260 gr Keith, bullets but never got the accuracy or performance with them. Not enough powder space and too much cylinder jump for efficient burning of slow powders. The 452490 is a marvel in .45 Colt lever guns also. For most shooting in my .45AR I've gone back to 190-200 gr SWCs. Excellent accuracy and performance up through 1150 fps.

Larry Gibson

[Bucks Owin]

FWIW, I think Larry is on the right track. There just ain't enough velocity with heavy bullets in the .45 AR IMHO.....

Dennis

[StarMetal]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. My all time most accurate shooting 45acp bullet has been the Lyman 452488...a funny looking SWC that weighs 195 to 200 grs. Been the most accurate out of my tuned 1911's and other styles of 45acp's that I've owned.

Joe

[Bodydoc447]

I have been shooting the group buy 452423 out of my 1917 autorim. With a dose of Clays I have been very pleased. I have shot as cast, lubed with Lee frog snot and sized to .452 with LAR45's alox blend. I have not been able to tell the difference yet. More testing is in the works, of course. The 45 BDCM didn't do too bad either as I recall with .452 sizing and alox blend.
FWIW,
Doc

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting 452423 out of the 45 AR, 45 ACP and 45 Colt cases for 45 years and have never been disappointed. This bullets has accounted for several deer several truck loads of Javelina, coyotes, jack rabbits etc.

I suppose if bear, elk or moose might be on tap, a feller might want a heavier bullet, but we are fresh out of all of those in deep South Texas.

Buckshot has my original single cavity mold turning it into a hollow point. Run that puppy out of a good strong Ruger at 1.1 to 1.2 fps and lordy..lordy!!!

[chunkum]

Loaded rounds have a lot of bullet outside the case and less inside than with most other Keith-type 45 calibers bullets. Even with the extra powder space over the 45243, I cut Mr Keith's recommendations (copied from his section in an older RCBS loading manual) to 12.5 grs with a chrono'd avg mvl of 855 fps. Current production revolvers likely could handle his load with aplomb. It gave good accuracy in my revolver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/CastBullets-Data/AutoRim2400-LongOgiveKeith.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/CastBullets-Data/EarlyKeithLoadsInRCBSmanual.jpg
;-)
chunkum

[drinks]

The Lee 456-220-1R, actually a bullet designed for the Ruger Old Army BP revolver, is my best bullet in both .45 acp selfloader and my 1917.
Has enough inside the case for good support and has good velocity with Universal.
I get 800fps in the 1917 and 930fps with the 1911 with 6.5gr Universal.
It is at least as accurate as I am, which may not be saying much, as I am a shotgunner and rifleman, not a pistolero.

[only1asterisk]

Larry,

What would you consider adequate velocity? I’m only looking for 900-950fps. That should be adequate to punch the ticket of any deer I’m likely to hunt. What would you consider a slow powder? I’m not planning on using anything much slower than HS-6.

David

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

What would you consider adequate velocity? I’m only looking for 900-950fps. That should be adequate to punch the ticket of any deer I’m likely to hunt. What would you consider a slow powder? I’m not planning on using anything much slower than HS-6.

David

Well like I said I only used as heavy as the Keith bullet, my old notes say 260 gr. The slow powders I tried back then were 2400. 4227, H110 and 639. I never got a decent average velocity over 1000 fps. My notes say on the 14, 14.5 and 15 gr of 2400; "extreme spreads of almost 200 fps, to much unburned powder - have to clean out from under extracter every loading". The best heavy load with that bullet was 9 gr of 4756 at 963 fps. 9.5 gr went 1058 but extraction was a little stiff. This is out of a new M25 I had back then mind you, I didn't use these loads in a '17. If I had another M25 I might be inclined to try that bullet again with Bluedot. So I guess with a heavier yet bullet you might get into the 900 fps range safely. I'd thought you were thinking of the magnum 1100+ fps range with the heavier bullet, my bad.

Quite frankly I found the lyman 452460 cast hard over 7.5 Unique to run 1030 fps and it gave comple penetration on several broadside shots on deer. Actually seemed as effective as the SWC at a hundred less fps. My reords show 10 shots of that 452460 load going into 4" at 50 yards. Probablably wouldn't do for a Texas heart shot but I don't do those anyway. I would use the 230 gr SWC anyway because I have one but I've seen too many deer killed with 200 gr HP and SWC bullets out of the .45ACP to believe it is not effective. (seen a few people get dumped with them also - 185s, 200s and the 230 hard ball) At practical revolver ranges I think the super heavy bullets for caliber don't really offer any more killing power on deer. Penetration yes, but the standard weight bullets, if properly cast and pushed, will penetrate the heart lung area of deer without problem from any reasonable angle.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Here is the Ohaus boolit as measured from a sample boolit.
Anyone interested could Honcho a buy for it.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, and I know this isn't what you asked, a buddy shot 3 deer this past year with a .45 auto. It's legal here in GA, and we've got a 12 deer limit. All were one shot kills, with the deer not going further than 35 yds. after the hit. Two fell at the shot and didn't get up. All close - no further than 35 yds. Two fell to the Lee 230 gr. TC cast bullet, and one to the Oregon Trail 200 LRNFP's he had left over from his .45 LC revolver. At .45 ACP/Auto Rim ranges, I really doubt it'll make a whole lot of difference what bullet you use, as long as it's got a decent sized flat point on it, and it's driven reasonably fast. He was getting 965 fps with the 230's, using 6.8 gr. Unique, and 1065 fps with the 200 RNFP's using 7.2 gr. Unique. His is a 5" gun. The deer that ran @ 35 yds. was hit with the 200, but it was loping along before he shot, paused a moment to look back, and that's when he made his shot. I think there's a pretty decent chance it might have fallen to the shot too, had it not been running before he shot it, but that's just conjecture, of course.

FWIW again, he uses his .45 only for close in shots where he'd have to move too much to make a close shot at an angle that would make him spook the deer if he tried to wield his rifle around. He carries his gun in an Askins Avenger by Bianchi, I think it is, and it's got a leather strap with a loop for the hammer, that operates a lot like the leather thong loop in a single action cowboy style holster. It's totally silent, and when a deer's close in, you don't want to make ANY sound, and you want to keep your movements to the bare minimum. Sure worked for him, and I confess surprise at how well it worked. I think bullet choice and the FP styles have something to do with it, not to mention he's one of the finsest shots I've ever known.

At any rate, a heavy large caliber bullet with a flat point, and driven to decent velocity, sure does do a fine job on most anything that comes up the pike. If by chance your gun winds up not shooting a heavy bullet as well as you'd like (slim chance, I know, but ... if), all's not lost. Just thought you may find this info interesting, even if not useful in your case.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have that mold and its another great bullet/
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/OhausKeithType.jpg

Here's the orginal box if you want to try to find more info on it. It is definitely NOT a 255 gr bullet as labeled. It's wide meplat, long ogive, and short inside the brass base make it a perfect candidate for the .45 Auto Rim when a long heavy bullet is desired.
c.

[only1asterisk]

I have to agree that bullets this heavy are not really required for southern whitetail, esp. if the hunter has some patience and waits for his shot. If your deer get bigger, or you throw hogs in the mix, a little more bullet couldn’t hurt.

I received my sample bullets today as well (Thanks Chunkum!). What a great bullet! I can’t help but wonder at its original use. I don't know if there will be enough interest for a group buy, but if not I'm going to have one done for myself when Mountain Molds starts taking orders again.


David

[Hardcast]

A good while back I tried to run a copy of this Ohaus mold on Dan's design program but it would not accept a nose that long, IIRC. Maybe he can make one anyway.

[GLL]

Here is my design on Dan's Mountain Mould program that I made after chunkum sent me samples. I tried to get it cut but will have to wait until Dan is taking new orders.

This design required a little juggling of measurements to get the program to accept the long nose ! :) :)

Jerry

http://fototime.com/10974C9A2FD6417/standard.jpg

[ddixie884]

I would be in for a 6 cavity like that.

[only1asterisk]

I didn't think that there would be so much interest in a bullet like this. I'd like to see if we can get to the 25 required for a LEE group buy. I think it could be possible, but more difficult than usual because of the specialized design of this bullet. I'd also be willing to pay a little more to have someone else cut the moulds in the event that we don't get enough folks to go through Lee.

I'd volunteer to head this up, but I prefer that somebody else with more time on this board did it.


David

[Dutch4122]

David-

Even if you don't get the 25 orders necessary to waive the $100.00 setup fee you can still split the cost between those who are sending you checks for a mould. So, if you only get a total of 10 orders then each would have to kick in an extra $10 for each mould they ordered to cover that setup fee. You might be surprised how many orders you get if you are patient with the process.

If you decide to Honcho this one you can count on me for an order as well. I missed out on the group buy 452423 and you can bet I won't let this one slip by.

[GLL]

Matt:

I also missed out on the 452423 6-cavity buy ! Do you think there would be enough interest to try the exact same buy a second time ?

Jerry

[Dutch4122]

Matt:

I also missed out on the 452423 6-cavity buy ! Do you think there would be enough interest to try the exact same buy a second time ?

Jerry

Well.....

After this one is done we can always run the 452423 up the flagpole and see how many members show an interest in a second run.

I just think that for right now this heavy Auto Rim boolit should be a priority.

[brian]

I've been using the RCBS 45-270-SAA with a lot of satisfaction in a 45 Colt revolver. I haven't tried it in a 45 AR revolver yet, but I have tried several 250-255 gr. "45 Colt" bullets in a 45 AR. Biggest problem with heavy bullets in the 45AR is if the bearing length is long, it bulges the case where it starts to taper in. I'm sure that's why having lots of length outside of the case is good. If you have trouble finding a heavy bullet, get the RCBS 45-270-SAA, lube the first groove, and seat it so only the base band and the next one are in the case (covering the lubed groove). The second lube groove will be outside the case neck but as long as there's no lube in it to pick up grit, so what. Good luck and have fun.
Brian

[Blacktail 8541]

Another consideration may be the RCBS 255 keith, also known as the swc in their cataloge.

[Char-Gar]

To each their own, But IMHO there are just too many good 45 SWCs out there in the 250-280 grain range to justify the need for a custom run of molds.

452423 was/is another matter as there was nothing out there, to replace it.

If you want something heavier than 240 grains there is a bunch of heaver bullets out there. I have been using RCBS 270 SAA in the 45 Colt with total satisfaction. It will cast out 280 grains.

I have been known to favor the 45AR round in sixguns, but would not want use enough powder in mine to get a heavy 270-280 grain bullet up to 900 - 1,000 fps. It could be done, but you are past my personal redline.

If you want to do that, it is time to go to the 45 Colt round.

[Cayoot]

Here is my design on Dan's Mountain Mould program that I made after chunkum sent me samples. I tried to get it cut but will have to wait until Dan is taking new orders.

This design required a little juggling of measurements to get the program to accept the long nose ! :) :)

Jerry

http://fototime.com/10974C9A2FD6417/standard.jpg

Count me in if you make a group buy for this one!

[azrednek]

I didn't see it mentioned in the thread. Saeco makes a 250+ 45 cal SWC slug. If I remember correctly it can be ordered with a flat or gas check base. I can't vouch for it, never used it but I do have another 45 cal Saeco mold I'm rather fond of.

[only1asterisk]

I have been known to favor the 45AR round in sixguns, but would not want use enough powder in mine to get a heavy 270-280 grain bullet up to 900 - 1,000 fps. It could be done, but you are past my personal redline.

The point of a AR specific bullet with a long nose is to increase the effective case capacity to the point that such loads are very reasonable. I think splitting the lee setup fee 10 ways is reasonable.

David

[Char-Gar]

OK... I will admit to being a little dense at times, but cast capacity is determined by how much of the bullet body is case and not the length of the nose in the chamber throat.

Increased case capacity mean you can use more powder, which means more pressure with bullets of equal weight. Increased case capacity without increaseed powder will mean lower pressure, but it will also mean lower velocity. Trying to get velocity without pressure is like a dog chasing his tail.

Also, I hold the opinion that the weight of the ejecta plays a large factor in pressure build up. A 270 grain bullet is a 270 grain bullet for pressure purposes and the porportion of nose to body is not a major factor.

I suppose on could design a bullet with a long nose and short body to increase case capacity, but the basic problems won't be solved. The weight of the bullet will still determine the pressure and the short body might not give enough bearing surface to deliver good accuracy.

Like I said, I am kinda dense at times....

[only1asterisk]

Chargar,

Did you read the thread?

All else being equal a bullet with a longer nose will have to less body in the case. Pressure isn't governed simply by bullet mass. Assuming proper propellents are available, any significant increase in effective case capacity can be turned into additional velocity at equal pressures. In the case of the 45 AR, there is ample room in the cylinder for some long nosed bullets and distinct lack of room inside the case. So long as a cast bullet has the required bearing surface, there is no reason it should protrude into the case more than needed for good neck tension and every reason that it shouldn't.

I agree that you are dense.

David

[Dale53]

Let's play nice, fellers...

Dale53

[only1asterisk]

I apologize. That was uncalled for.

The bullets from the Ohaus mould should run 70fps or so faster than RCBS 45-255-SWC at 45 ACP pressures even though the former may outweigh the later by a few grains. A 265 grain bullet designed to optimize case capacity could get 100fps more while preserving a better ratio of bearing surface to bullet length than the Ohause bullet.

100fps is not an inconsiderable increase with a 265 grain bullets.

David

[Bret4207]

I believe the concern would be people with '17 Smiths and Colts attempting to sling a 270 gr boolit at 1000 fps. Pressures may well be too high for regular or even limited use. They may be too high for these older guns period since we don't have any data or reports to go by. That is the concern.

BTW- Generally when you've been here for a month and only have 12 posts to your credit you don't insult guys who have been here forever and are "family". I realize common courtesy is leaving this place fast, but a little thought before punching the "send" button is a good thing.

[only1asterisk]

Respectfully,

The gentleman’s tone was insulting. I realize that retaliation was juvenile, but I’m going to put up with that kind of crap on a good day. I was in a foul mood and let slip something I regret.

Unlike the family you are born into, you are free to choose those you associate with online. Thank you to the folks here that rolled out the welcome wagon, I believe I’ll go elsewhere.

David

[chunkum]

This forum does have excellent potential for being a good place to share good information regarding it's chosen subjects. Forum "decorum" is something that I try to respect. I'm a relative newby here myself. However respect is a two way street. Many new members have considerable experience and have refrained from joining the forum, after lurking and observing what gives the appearance of a "clique" that wants to throw its weight and opinions around based on seniority and this "family" concept, apparently motivated more by a "we're the "in-group" assertiveness than any real desire to share knowledge. There is much more "jerking" around of newby introduced threads here than there ought to be, most of it treading on the edges of "common courtesy" in the shallow waters of sarcasm, daring anyone to object. A great deal of it contributed to and compounded by the moderators themselves and at the slightest hint of any objection, the hijacking goes into "jerk around" overtime. There is good information here, but other than a "welcome to the forum" lip service response to initial newby post there is little receptiveness to any of their input. There is little continuance of any semblance of incorporation of good input from members who have recently decided to brave the waters. I intend this input in a constructive manner, realizing that it's unlikely to be so taken. Oh well.........
Best Regards,
chunkum

[Cayoot]

This forum does have excellent potential for being a good place to share good information regarding it's chosen subjects. Forum "decorum" is something that I try to respect. I'm a relative newby here myself. However respect is a two way street. Many new members have considerable experience and have refrained from joining the forum, after lurking and observing what gives the appearance of a "clique" that wants to throw its weight and opinions around based on seniority and this "family" concept, apparently motivated more by a "we're the "in-group" assertiveness than any real desire to share knowledge. There is much more "jerking" around of newby introduced threads here than there ought to be, most of it treading on the edges of "common courtesy" in the shallow waters of sarcasm, daring anyone to object. A great deal of it contributed to and compounded by the moderators themselves and at the slightest hint of any objection, the hijacking goes into "jerk around" overtime. There is good information here, but other than a "welcome to the forum" lip service response to initial newby post there is little receptiveness to any of their input. There is little continuance of any semblance of incorporation of good input from members who have recently decided to brave the waters. I intend this input in a constructive manner, realizing that it's unlikely to be so taken. Oh well.........
Best Regards,
chunkum

Well, I will be the first to admit that I am not a very "Socially Sensitive" person and can barely take a hint even if I'm hit over the head with it.

I also consider myself a "newbie" cuz I'm so low on the learning curve. I find informative thoughts and opinions everytime I come on here (I've been lurking for years...I don't post that often when compared to how much I read).

Also, I admit that my work (C.P.A./Auditor) keeps me away from home and the internet/cast boolits much more than I'd like.

That being said however, I have never noticed what I thought was a condensending tone from any of the group that I consider to be "The Grand Old Gentlemen of Cast Boolits". On the contrary, they are always friendly and accepting to even the most foolish and repetitive questions here (usually, those questions are voiced by me).

I guess I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I've never noticed the problems you mention here chunkum.

I'm not saying you are wrong, it's just that I've never noticed it.

[grumble]

I think us old timers can learn something from the comments by both Chunkum and Cayoot.

Back when we were debating whether to grow the foum or keep its membership small, my comment that a large membership would change the "personality" of the board was not taken seriously. We may now be at the point where "seniority" and "we've always done it this way" count for less than the sense of community we hope to maintain.

[Bret4207]

Grumble- the sense of community is part of what we've always done here. IMO those who choose to join should toe the line to our standards. Thats why Aladin isn't here anymore. Guys like you and I go back to the "Shooters" days and the flavor of what we had then is reflected here. If it changes for the worse then why bother maintaining what we have? I've said before I don't want a CB-L type atmosphere, but we also don't want a free for all where common respect and courtesy is non-existant. I consider many guys here "friends" even though we've never met. I have no problem with new "family" as long as they try to fit in. You were right as far as things changing. If it's going to go down the sewer I don't have much interest in seeing it or being part of it.

[Bret4207]

P.S.- I agree with Chunkums observation about sarcasm and the put downs thrown out by a few, a very few, members. One of those members and I are done as far as I'm concerned. We do have an "ignore user" feature. Those who wish are certainly welcome to use it for my posts, although I expect they'll be even fewer now if things continue in the current trend.

[StarMetal]

What Tpr Bret fails to tell you fellows is he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He portrays this moral God fearing man who is always among the first to tell us to tone down the language, that there are women and children that read this forum. Well ask Trp Bret about the pm he sent me, yeah I'm the member he's referring too that he's done with, about one of the worse names you could call a person along with all the other filthy words he wrote that he so dearly puts this front on that he depises such language. Unbecoming of a moderator, a law enforcement officer, and a man. Maybe I should post your pm to me on here huh Tpr Bret?? Maven sure would be interested in what you called me.

Joe

[45nut]

OK,
I will address some "issues" here.
Some of you may or may not know that none of the administration has not taken any formal training in the forum craft,psychology or prescriptions are not part and parcel of why this forum was created,it was a bond of a common passion,cast boolits and the crafting and production of said subject,their uses and tips and tricks of the trade as well as the history and future of our hobby.
The wide open area's of discussion are bound to drift and ebb and while that is not certain to wander back to the original post,this thread in particular is a prime example,the heavy hands of the administration are more likely than not to let it slide. You see,this is not likely to push governments to crush oppression overseas,nor is it likely to launch 20 thousand border patrol agents to the canadian frontier. We have a simple and easy format and the title of the forum should assist in helping those thoughts since it is at the top and bottom of every page requested of the server.
I think we have a lot to offer those seeking help,and those with more experience are valueable to everyone as well,the number of posts beside your handle is inconsequential to the content. Those "newbies" are not any less a "boolitman" than those with three thousand posts when they have been casting for years,decades or just skilled from the first time a mold is swung open.
Sometimes the ones that talk most have less to offer.
"better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Myself,I come here for the comeraderie and appeal of meeting new solutions to difficult issues,not wanting to come here and dish out punishment for insolence and boorish posts that have nothing to solve but instead inflame.
Some of the finest and most inspiring members here are seldom taking part in discussions that they may contribute the most information to simply for the lack of energy to defend their insight and dicoveries,and that is a shame and we are the lesser for it. My own post count here may seem that way,I simply work hard enough at my job to earn a living to need to address simple things that should sort themselves out. This thread topic was of specific interest to me and it was with a heavy sigh to see it had sunk to what prompted this reply.
Now I hope some feeling has been passed along to give some direction for further posts. 45nut

[Char-Gar]

Good Lordy Boys...I certainly didn't intend to twist anybody's tail or start a personality conflict. I thought this was a simple thread about heavy cast bullet in the 45 AR case and all the issues that brings up.

Some of the info put out to the original poster didn't make allot of sense to me, and I was trying to clarify the issues. I was just trying to discuss the issues.

I tried to be self-depreciating and not sarcastic. It was just a simple post about cast boolits for Pete's sake.

Now I have been around people long enought to know that some folks don't take it kindly when somebody disagrees with there thinking. Folks tend to be very defensive about their thoughts. They take disagreement as a personal attack and read all sorts of stuff into what is going on.

I apoligize to one and all, if such be needed, but I really don't understand what is going on here. But, like the man said...I am sorta dense.

[Char-Gar]

Just an afterthough about the nature of this board. I try and remember that for every poster in a thread there are hundreds that read it. Many of these readers don't have the experience to seperate the wheat from the chaff and if somebody uses all the right jargon they are assumed to know what they are talking about. All of us see some pretty flaky notions on these type boards. Some of the move past flaky to down right dangerous.

I agree that anybody has the right to do anything they want to, but when they do it here, they are doing it in public and there needs to be a counterbalance and the hard questons need to be asked. Not so much for the benefit of those who post, but for those who lurk and learn.

The original notion of this thread was hanging ten over the norm. The 45 AR round was not designed to sling 270 -280 grain bullets at 900 to 1,000 fps. It can be done, but you must go beyond the safe and explored to do it. I might do it, but I am not going to talk about it on this board.

Handloading in a dangerous activity no matter how you slice it. I think it behooves all of us to challenge or test the thinking of those who are wanting to push the redline. If not for their sake, then for the sake of those who lurk.

I don't understand the doing of this to be bad manners, rude or unfriendly to newbies. I understand it to be responsible.

[Blacktail 8541]

Charger , Thank you for a clear and pointed responce to these post. Handloading can be a very hazardus activity if pursued in a irresponceable manor. When you go beyond published data you are in effect asking for and will probably rercieve trouble at some point. I build and shoot a lot of combinations that have no posted data. But I am not reckless in doing so. Buy that I mean base velocities and bullet weights , case capacity ect are all compared with similar or as close as can be obtained designs and data extrapalated from that . Ballistic programs are also cosultated. But the biggest thing I use is common sence. Just because things can be done does not always mean they should be. Getting the last little bit of velocity is seldom worth the added risk.

[chunkum]

This is exactly what I was talking about. This thread was never about hyper velocity but rather about getting the maximum safe velocity with a heavier bullet in a modern revolver. The essence of the subject was finding a suitable mould/bullet for the project. In perusing the thread, there is no reference to unsafe powder charges nor to mvl of >1000 fps or more. The goal was hypothetical and there was, early on, a discussion with other participants regarding just what would be desirable/safe. This is no more unreasonable than the discussions of high velocity 45 Colt loads in modern-handguns/Ruger-level that you can find on the boards of most shooting/reloading forums on the net, and certainly no more unconventional, even if not the traditional norm. All handloading requires a degree of knowledge, judgement and discretion. Intelligent discussion is certainly desirable but this thread took a subtle turn with unfounded inuendo and unjustified and baseless criticism apparently directed toward obscuring and destroying its original intent. Now the back patting begins to make it all right that a good project has been trashed and a new forum member has been pushed to leave the forum. It surely gives the appearance of a "control" issue whether that is actually the case or not. I am embarrassed for the majority if intelligent and knowledgeable senior members of this forum who have obviously worked long and hard to create a forum for free and open exchange and sharing of information and ideas on its chosen content; and for any visitors/newbys perusing the thread and trying to make any sense out of all the kerfuffle. Again these comments are constructively intended.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[Bret4207]

I apologize to those who I inadvertantly offended. The issue to me was a new member insulting a man who has been here a long time and didn't do anything wrong. The other issue between Starmetal and I is a long one and I wll take care of it PM-wise.

As to the "control" issue. The free and open exchange of infomation only happens when folks feel it "safe" to post a question or make a commnet. Keeping it that way isn't so much "control" as an insurance that things go smoothly. Ridicule and brow beating someone, whether I do it or some one else does, doesn't help.

I've been here a lot of years. Old wounds fester and tempers flare. I'm taking a vacation. See ya.

[Char-Gar]

Chunkum.... I gather you believe that I wanted to drive off a new member and squelch a project that you feel was worthwhile.

If that is where you are coming from, you are filtering my posts through some sort of emotional adgenda, for noting is farther from my intention. A free and open forum, as you wish, cuts both ways. To have such a forum requires the freedom to dissent and disagree. A thread where somebody asks for only supportive responses is far from "free and open".

I am not in agreement with you that the intial project was a first class idea. Depending on how folks interpreted and implemented the notion, it could be unsafe. The whole concept belongs to the garage built hot rod family of projects. Somebody is wanting to trick out a handgun to get it to do something for which it was not intended. But this is a matter of opinion and each is entitled to his own.

I have no desire to drive off new folks from this board. Nor do I assume they don't know anything about bullet casting. I am always glad see newcomes and the experience they bring.

What you saw taking place was not a "senior" trying to spank a "newbie" but what has gone on in this community for years. Bullet caster agreeing and disagreeing. Those of us, who have been here for years, have wrestled each other all over the World Wide Web. Opinions differ, at times temper's flair and noses get out of joint, but in the end some small bit of forward progress is made in the art and/or science of bullet casting.

My response to the original poster was very mild compared to some of the drubbings I have taken over the years. I don't expect to have received my last spirited disagreement.

The long and short of it is, if you want a free and open forum, you need to expect and accept some disagreement and challenge. That is the nature of what goes on. There is no reason for get in a snit and stalk off. Hang around and join the fray.

I was in a disagreement over a church issue with my Bishop a couple of years back and he said "Charles..you would not say if I was not I was black!" He saw my disagreement as a racial issue. I responded by saying.." Bishop, I don't disagree with you because you are back, I disagree with you because you are wrong."

I get a sense that something like that is going on here. We don't have a black vs. white complex, but a "newbie" vs. "senior" complex. In neither case was this understanding of the event valid. This senior vs. newbie polarization does not exist..at least in my mind and view of things.

Chunkum...I am not trying to run you off..I welcome you with open arms and am eager to listen and learn from what you have to say. I don't intend to insult the other fellow or run him off. I just want this forum to be truly free and open. When you rub too pieces of steel together, you may get some sparks, but they also get smoother and sharper.

[Blacktail 8541]

Chunkum, Who did any back patting? I agreed with a post that suggested common sence, I did not say there were any hyper loads posted or suggested loads were dangerous. What I did say was that last little bit of velocity is seldom needed. And trying to get it can be dangerous. No mention in all the post state the type of firearm that was to be used, and that is a problem. Not all guns are created equal even in the same model. Chambers, throats ect vary. That is a given. The Ideal of heavier bullets at a slower velocity is not new and is often very effective as has been proven time and again. All i am stateing is be careful when going into uncharted territory with bullet /powder combinations that are not pressure tested.

[chunkum]

It's my opinion that there is nothing to be gained by pursuing this thread further. There are other threads in this forum and in other forums that are more interesting and less contentious. This horse is dead and I bequeath it to those who enjoy that kind of ride. I would hope communication and congeniality will be better in the others and in future threads. And that's all I have to say about that.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[Char-Gar]

Chunkum...I tried to send you a PM, but it keeps bouncing back. I gather you have me on your ignore list.

[9.3X62AL]

All this upset.......methinks we all need a fishing trip or a shooting venture.

[ddixie884]

I have been on the road a lot lately, and didn't realize this thread had deteriorated. I am sorry, as I was hoping for a GB on this bullet in a 6 cavity.

[Oregon_Dan]

FWIW, I had really good luck with the 45 AR shooting the bullet Keith designed for it. If recall it is a 452423. Cast weight was 245 with my mould and alloy. Very accurate, and effective.

[Paul5388]

Another FWIW, NEI has this mould, which is called the .45-255 SWC, but you might want to mention it being a variation of an Ohaus bullet design to ensure you get the right mould. You can get it in aluminum or iron.

Chunkum was right about it casting in the 270 gr neighborhood and he was also right about the achievable velocities using Elmer's loads in a modern .45 ACP revolver.

Using 13.0 gr of 2400 (2004 vintage), I clock 960 fps out of a 5" M625-4, using ACP brass. That's hardly anything to worry about in a gun that can be rechambered to .460 Rowland or that can shoot .45 Super without any changes.

[GSM]

I'll throw another FWIW: If you intend to shoot the bullets through a S&W 25, check the cylinder throats BEFORE you order a mould. A lot of the 25's had .454+ cylinders - .452 slugs through those cylinders get nasty in a hurry.

[ChuckS1]

FWIW #3: There's one on eBay right now.