PDA

View Full Version : 308 cast is a deer killer



jh45gun
03-28-2006, 02:34 AM
A couple of years ago I used some cast bullets in my 308 Encore pistol just because I had some loaded. I had made the mistake of loading some jacketed bullet loads that for the pistol was too much recoil and gave me a bad flinch so I resorted to some cast loads to shoot to get rid of the flinch which worked great by the way. The jacketed loads I made up were safe enough and no signs at all of any excess pressure and would have been great in a rifle they were just too much for the pistol. Anyway all I know about the cast bullets were they were roundnose about 165 grains after lubing and gaschecked. I had bought these this way from a estate sale of a old retired machinist and partime gunsmith. So no idea of the alloy or lube or what bullet this was. Lube was black. Anyway since I had some loaded and it shot good at 50 yards using I do not remember with out looking in the old lyman book but it was either 19 or 20 grains of 2400 to give a vel about 1800 FPS according to the book. First deer shot was a 5 point buck in the neck about 40 yards it dropped the buck but he ran several times and would go about 10 to 15 yards and drop again so he was hurt bad after about 50 yards I got another in the neck and that was it for him. Later when cleaning the deer I dropped the hide for my buddy to keep to sell as I used his garage which I do as he has it set up in the fall for skinning and processing deer. He said later that he picked up my hide and one of the bullets fell on the floor he said you probably could shoot it again no expansion and the bullet tip did not mushroom at all. I know have a Ideal 311407 mould so the round nose is not a issue. Since I had this mould at the time and had the other bullets loaded already before I got this mould I used it as a template to file the existing noses on the loaded bullets to get the same size flat point on these bullets. Next shot was a doe about 75 yards she ran off and I could tell she was hit good. The blood trail a blind man could have followed and when she dropped about 30 yards she sprayed a 6 foot circle of blood all around her. I have never seen that with a jacketed bullet even. I had shot for the front shoulder and shot a bit higher than I wanted it went in the lower neck and come out a bit higher even though I shot a level shot at it. All I can say is a flat on the bullet really makes a difference and I would never use a round nose on a 30 cal again but go with a flat tipped bullet. My 45/70 bullets are roundnose but then they are huge to begin with.

trooperdan
03-28-2006, 04:54 AM
Yeah, I consider those 45/70 slugs as "pre-expanded"! Been doing the job for over 100 years now!

Bass Ackward
03-28-2006, 08:37 AM
Next shot was a doe about 75 yards she ran off and I could tell she was hit good. The blood trail a blind man could have followed and when she dropped about 30 yards she sprayed a 6 foot circle of blood all around her. I have never seen that with a jacketed bullet even.


Jh,

The larger .... and tougher the animal, the more of a key role penetration plays in the equasion, because a bullet get's more time to expand and transfer shock as it slows. Or .... the easier it is to be successful using cast. This another way to say it.

Going up in bore diameter cures "most" sins as the game get's bigger and "can cause" some sins on smaller animal use such as deer. Especially, if you don't have a bullet that can still cause some secondary projectiles or transfer shock in a very short internal distance. A round nose has zero chance. It must expand. It loses this ability very fast as shooting distances increase. You might have fantastic results at 35 yards only to get a blamk stare and no physical reaction as an animal moves off at 40. It can be just that strange.

No matter the caliber, always increase your odds with a meppy if that option is available to ya.

JDL
03-28-2006, 10:29 AM
I'm in agreement! Back in the '70's I shot my first and second deer with cast boolits, which were Lyman 311466 (probably lino) and 18.2 grains of H-4227 out of a .300 Savage case. I had made a little tool so that I could drill a hollow point in my hunting rounds to make up for them being too hard. Both deer required only one shot and both only went 20-30 yards after the shot. The first was less than 30 yards and the second was way too far on a gas line right-of -way. I was lucky and quit while I was ahead, going to the 31141 for hunting out of a softer alloy. It works mo betta! -JDL

Larry Gibson
03-28-2006, 02:04 PM
........All I can say is a flat on the bullet really makes a difference and I would never use a round nose on a 30 cal again but go with a flat tipped bullet. My 45/70 bullets are roundnose but then they are huge to begin with.

That just about says it. Back in the late '60s and early '70s I shot quite a few deer and feral goats with 311291 and 311041 (HP and FP). Alloy was mostly WWs and lube was Lymans graphite (probably the same black stuff as was on your bullets). Somewhere in there I switched to Javelina though. I was loading them in 30-30, .308 and 30-06. Velocities were in the 1800 to 2000 fps range. I found as you did that while they kill the RN bullets were not nearly as effective as the FP or HPs Nothing new there as we just rediscovered the wheel. While a nice accurate bullet I quit using the 311291 for hunting and stuck with the 311041. I also don't use the RN or pointed cast bullets for small game loads in any caliber but go with a SWC or WC. I built a bolt action 45-70 in the mid '70s and found that even while the RN bullets start out at .45 caliber the cast bullets with a meplat also killed much better. I have zipped RN 385-405 gr 45-70 bullets through larger squirrels and jack rabbits without a whole lot of effect other than they died. The 210 gr Rapine HB which is a WC with a little rounded nose kills them a lot better (basically SPLAT!) at 900 fps than a 500 gr RN at 1300 fps. The Lee 510 gr bullet with a meplat is a better killer on deer/elk than the 500 gr RN government bullet given equal alloy and velocity. The SWC or flat meplat just transfer energy and destroys tmore tissue than the RN regarless of caliber.

Good thought provoking post jh45gun.

Larry Gibson

jh45gun
03-28-2006, 07:34 PM
Thanks Larry I suppose I could do like I did with my 30 cal bullets and file metplates on my 45/70 bullets until I find a mould I like. Buy using a caliper you can get pretty close on every one. For my 30 cal shooting I now have a 311407 mould that should work nicely since it has a flat metplate. Jim

Larry Gibson
03-28-2006, 07:46 PM
Thanks Larry I suppose I could do like I did with my 30 cal bullets and file metplates on my 45/70 bullets until I find a mould I like. Buy using a caliper you can get pretty close on every one. For my 30 cal shooting I now have a 311407 mould that should work nicely since it has a flat metplate. Jim

311407, is that the one from the group buy? What weight does your mould cast out? I've been using a RCBS 30-150 lately in the 30-30 TC carbine barrel. They cast out at 160 gr with WWs and have a fairly decent meplat. Looking forward to trying them out on jack rabbits and such this year.

Larry Gibson