Dismal failure--and blew a gun up

[Recluse]

Well, so much for my experiment with making a "super alloy" and pushing it to jacketed load levels to increase accuracy in 9mm.

Reference: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57954

On a quirk, I decided to test these rounds in the FN Hi-Power. Prior to testing them, I shot 50 rounds that I had sized to .357, but kept same powder load as I use for the .356. Boolit is a TL124RN.

Sizing to .357 helped only slightly, and I do mean slightly. When I tried the "super alloy" boolits, sized .356, it was disasterous--flyers everywhere. About the only thing I DIDN'T get were keyholes. I didn't even finish the box of rounds--will use my handy-dandy Hornady Cam-Lock bullet-puller on the remaining 25 rounds.

So, I then pull out my beloved Taurus 92 that I've had for 21 years and shot who-knows how many thousands and thousands of rounds through. I load it up with some old DOJ issue Remington 115 gr FMJ practice rounds. Fourth shot, the damn gun blows up in my hand--I have some really nice powder burns on my right hand and a couple on my left-hand index and middle fingers. Had some minor bleeding, but no big deal. All the fingers work and I stopped by a doc-in-the-box to get everything cleaned up and out really well, and then asked for an antibiotics shot. Too much nasty stuff at a gun-range, and I figured better safe than sorry.

Have no idea what happened. The slide jacked back really hard, but the rounds (Remington factory practice ammo) were just standard factory FMJ. The hammer was locked back and one of the pins that is connected to the double-action mechanisms was broke, another piece on the frame was bent out almost 30 degrees from centerline, but other than that, everything on the frame is intact. Slide and barrel are absolutely good.

Beats the hades out of me what happened.

Will be packing up the frame and shipping it to Taurus next week, along with the gun's history and an incident report. It has an unconditional Lifetime Warranty (excluding obvious abuse) and only other time I've needed that warranty was when a locking-block that is part of the barrel/spring mechanism broke. I sent in the broken one, Taurus sent me a new one--took less than two weeks, and no hassles.

We'll see what happens here.

:coffee:

[snaggdit]

Well, glad to hear you are OK and only a little worse for wear. I bet the whole experience rattled you some. I have the fear in the back of my mind every time I work up a new load. I've never blown up a gun yet, but have done some dumb things. I misread some load info and loaded a bunch of 45s with way too much red dot. While at the range with by BIL, we commented on the heavy recoil. Then he noticed that it was beginning to wear off the powder coating on the end of the slide. Checked the brass and primers were bulging out and brass was swelled some. Spent a half hour pounding the rest apart. At least the guns handled them.

[mpmarty]

Glad to hear you're still seeing out of both eyes and have only "minor" damage to your meathooks.

Hope Taurus stands behind the warranty and takes care of things. I've had good luck with them on a couple of pistols I sent them. They not only fixed what was wrong but it seems they send returns through a sort of custom shop and do a complete tune-up while they have it.

[Recluse]

Glad to hear you're still seeing out of both eyes and have only "minor" damage to your meathooks.

Hope Taurus stands behind the warranty and takes care of things. I've had good luck with them on a couple of pistols I sent them. They not only fixed what was wrong but it seems they send returns through a sort of custom shop and do a complete tune-up while they have it.

Actually, my butt hurts more than my hand does--but I hate taking antibiotics orally, so a shot it was.

And, dangdest thing is that it was a factory load. . . I'm thinking something was just worn to the point of getting ready to break. But who knows? Guns are mechanical things and mechanical things break. And quite honestly, I'd much rather have a gun break on me at the range while plinking than on the street when I need it.

Encouraging to hear how Taurus tune-up your guns. I'd planned on just sending them the frame/lower unit. Might as well ship them the whole thing. Nothing to lose, eh?

:coffee:

[HeavyMetal]

+1 on shipping the whole gun but keep any Hi Caps out of it you run a strong possiblity of not getting it back!

[geargnasher]

Ouch!

Glad to hear you're ok after all that....how's your flinch doing now? (At least you still have all the proper stuff for a good flinch intact!).

Gear

[armyrat1970]

Bummer. Glad you are still in one working piece with no serious damage. The weapon can always be replaced but parts of your body cannot. I always hope it never happens to me and sorry it did to you.

[denul]

I had a H&G Tactical model give way several years ago, on a friend who was shooting it; no burns or broken skin, and he wasn't upset. H&G sent it back in great shape, no questions asked;we were using reloads that checked OK when we pulled them.
On that bleeding, burned hand, if I'm not being too nosy, tetanus imunization is as important as the antibiotic shot, if you aren't current on that. It hurts, too, but if you ever see someone with that disease, objections to the shot dissipate quickly.

[lathesmith]

If you had been firing some cast loads in your Taurus, and IF those loads were severely leading the barrel, and THEN you tried to fire some jacketed loads thru it, that might be a possible explanation. Lots of IF's, though, hard to say from a distance.
lathesmith

[357maximum]

Bummer. Glad you are still in one working piece with no serious damage. The weapon can always be replaced but parts of your body cannot. I always hope it never happens to me and sorry it did to you.

A gun/stick/rock/automobile/sligshot/2X4/lead pipe/ etc are not a weapon until used as such. Can we ALL please stop calling guns weapons here? A gun is just a piece of machinery until it is pointed at something breathing......with intent to stop said breathing.

Not picking on anyone individually here, especially a servicemans kid/ or serviceman.....we just need to stop this practice of calling a static object a "weapon" .

THANK YOU, rant over please carry on.... :wink:
Michael

[357maximum]

Glad to hear you are OK....it is always possible that the factory load had a double charge or too much powder. I have had whitebox 223 ammo that was too warm for my H&R ultra.....curious I tried them in another rifle. They were too hot for a savage 223 also...showed classic signs of excessive pressure. The factory wanted them back and gave me a great gift card for more ammo. I have had an issue with factory ammo 2 times...both times I was well taken care of. The other incident involved a 12gauge slug that left something behind..(looked like a wad or gas seal turned sideways)...the next shot folded up the chair I was sitting in and put my 200 lb body to the dirt. I was fine, confused but fine. The ammo factory bought me a new slug barrel....apparently their assessment of the incident matched mine. Stuff happens...I have even done it to myself once....I wrote about my LP primer in a 7mm/08 here someplace...that one cost me money for a bolt and rightfully so. Machines break..especially when fed bad gas.

[felix]

Quite often it seems we have to inform board newbees that we do not use the word 'weapon'. It's difficult for folks who have spent most of their lives in the military not to use that word, I know. But, everyone, please consider that word as an extremely offensive one here, even in a defensive situation. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Glad you are okay. I'm also glad that it was a Taurus you shot that round in. I think it was the round, not the gun. Taurus's are pretty tough. When I had my business in Tulsa had a friend that had his class 3 license. He wanted me to order him some of the Israeli 9mm carbine ammo, then known as machine gun ammo, as it was very hot. We talked about guns. He said the Beretta 92 wouldn't handle hot 9mm and the Browning Hi Power barely would. He got rid of the Beretta and got a Taurus 92. He reported it just gobbled up the hot 9mm and said it was a very stout pistol. Taurus may want a sample of your Remington 9mm ammo.

Joe

[Recluse]

Good thought on the tetanus--but I'm current.

The Remington ammo was issued to me back in 1988, and there's no telling when it was manufactured. Back in my LE days, we used to order the stuff by the truckload--.38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm, 45 ACP, .223, .308 and all sorts of 12-guage shotgun ammo.

Nice thing about being a fed in a small/mid-sized town. Very little oversight, very handsome budget, and in the case of the U.S. Marshals back then, they did want you to shoot and shoot a lot. In my case, my boss (the gold badge) was an expert shot because he shot every day and practiced hard. He'd also done it in real life and knew the importance of staying not just proficient, but expert. He never said no to any ammuntion order I put in for the office.

I have a lot of that factory ammo left, and occasionally will take a box out to run through one of the guns.

I had been shooting the cast boolits through the FN Hi-Power--no lead through the Taurus, so leading/obstruction wasn't an issue. And, I'm religious about cleaning my guns after shooting them--especially the handguns.

On one hand, I'm grateful it was the Taurus rather than the FN. I baby that FN for the most part, and after the Taurus blew, realized how stooopid I was for running hot, max rounds through the FN.

But on the other hand, I went through two Beretta 92's that broke while firing and that's how I ended up with the Taurus. There are several things I like about it better than the Beretta--the cocked and locked safety being primary among them--and it ended up being my primary duty-weapon for several years.

Yes, I did say weapon because when you're a cop and frequently working alone chasing bad guys or transporting prisoners or doing witness protection, you need a weapon more than you need a gun. That Taurus saw action, more than once, and it saved lives, more than once.

I'm working up a brief "histoire" of the gun for the folks at Taurus. I know a couple of folks who used to work for Smith & Wesson. They always told us that they enjoyed hearing and reading about "tales from the gun" on sidearms sent back to to them for repair or tune-up or customization. I doubt Taurus is any different.

I've read some negative things about Taurus quality and customer service in the past few years. We bought a Judge to keep in the airplane as a survival gun. I've seen firsthand some sloppy workmanship in the new stuff. Yet, a close friend and retired Marine bought a Taurus 1911, did his USMC armorer work to it (same as he did/does on ALL his .45 ACP pistols) and that gun is now his primary carry gun, he loves it so much.

We'll see how they handle this repair.

:coffee:

[Freightman]

They fixed and improved my Gaucho SAA and didn't take them but 16 days from shipping to receiving.

[Blammer]

If you have the factory box and the factory ammo, I'm sure the maker will be very interested to know about it. I'd be calling them if possible, see what they say.

Glad you're ok!

I bet you may have a flinch for a month or so....

[JSnover]

Quite often it seems we have to inform board newbees that we do not use the word 'weapon'. It's difficult for folks who have spent most of their lives in the military not to use that word, I know. But, everyone, please consider that word as an extremely offensive one here, even in a defensive situation. ... felix

Didn't realize there was a policy against using the W word....

[Heavy lead]

Didn't realize there was a policy against using the W word....

Neither did I, and I'm surprised. The last thing I expected here was a political correct banning of a word. Why not ban the word gun too? That can be just as offensive to some people, or explosive for that matter? I'm not ex-military, nor a police officer, nor a former one, but I know the definition of weapon, and while a relatively newcomer myself ( a year give or take) I'm offended by it's shunning, and frankly don't understand it. The only logical conclusion that I can think of for not using it would be to keep this site out of searches done with the "W" word.

[skeet1]

I'm with Recluse. Most of my guns are just that "guns" but a few are "weapons" that I currently use or have used in in the last 31 years. To refer to the few as just guns is just silly because they are that and much more. My current Glock I have carried for the last 19 years and is hardly a thing of beauty but it is one of the tools of my trade, a weapon.

Skeet1

[Old Ironsights]

Haven't had a Weapon (Issue/Combat MBR/Sidearm) or a Gun (Howitzer) since getting out of the Army.

I have several Rifles and Shotguns, and a few Pistols & Revolvers, but no generic "guns".

This is my Rifle, This is my Gun... and it's an 8"... :twisted:

[waksupi]

Actually, that is Felix' policy. Not the board policy. I own weapons, that are sporting firearms by chance.

[felix]

Correct, Ric. My policy. There are plenty of boards on the net emphasizing confrontation. ... felix

[454PB]

I'm glad you were not seriously injured. I doubt you will ever know what caused the failure, but suggest you inspect the failed cartridge case.

I had a similar incident with a 9mm some years ago. I gained a great respect for the power of the 9mm when I saw what CAN happen in a case failure. In my case, the magazine was blown out and into it's various pieces, and the loaded cartridges remaining in it were recovered. The top one had the cast boolit nose completely cut off by escaping gas, the next two below it were also gas cut. Both grips were damaged, one completely blown off. The ejector was blown out, but recovered and replaced. Damages to me were minor bruising, powder burns, and numbing of my shooting hand. The scariest part was the blood trickling off my nose and landing on the bench. It turned out to be caused by two small pieces of the brass imbedded in my forehead and cheek. I removed one piece at the range, and another larger one using tweezers when I got home to a mirror. It was stuck just below my eye, and I WAS wearing shooting glasses at the time.

The blown brass case sat on my loading bench for many years as a reminder. It looked like the typical "Glock" mouse bite of the the case head, although it was not fired in a Glock (at least I don't own a Glock), but it was a piece of range recovered brass.

It took me a while to regain my confidence after this happened, but it's like getting bucked off a horse.

[Recluse]

I'm glad you were not seriously injured. I doubt you will ever know what caused the failure, but suggest you inspect the failed cartridge case.

It took me a while to regain my confidence after this happened, but it's like getting bucked off a horse.

I tried finding the offending case, but with a floor full of 9mm empties that had been tossed about on a Friday night. . . I still have part of that box of Remington ammo, and if Taurus wants, I'll ship it to them. However, I seriously doubt they'll find anything. Plus, that ammo is at least 22 years old just from when it was issued to me. No telling when it was actually manufacturered.

I'd started the night with the 9mm guns, and was on my last box of 9mm ammo when the gun blew. Washed my hand off as well as I could, borrowed some band-aids from the range folks, and went back out to shoot my S&W 686. Admittedly, the first cylinder full of shots weren't all that great, but the rest of the box of (my) reloads ended up with their usual one ragged hole at 50'.

Then I went over to the rifle range and continued testing my 200gr1R 30-06 loads, and was very happy to find two that show excellent progress.

Hell, only bad part of the night was blowing up my favorite gun.

:coffee:

[Recluse]

Correct, Ric. My policy. There are plenty of boards on the net emphasizing confrontation. ... felix

Boy, ain't there. . . . With almost all of them manned, guarded and defended by some of the most highly decorated, fierce, battle-tested armchair warriors the Armed Internet Forces has ever virtually produced.

But, I define my guns/weapons based upon purpose and intent. I can be playing softball and that long cylindrical piece of wood I'm holding is merely a baseball bat. But if a rabid dog charges me, it quickly becomes a weapon.

For the gun I carry on my person, it is a weapon because I'm not carrying it for the purposes of target shooting or sale or trade or showing off or admiring. I'm carrying it for the purpose of defending myself if confronted in a threatening or hostile manner.

It goes into my holster as a weapon and remains a weapon until such time that it goes in the gun safe and another gun takes its place in the holster, to which that gun then becomes a weapon and the weapon it replaced becomes a gun once again.

Semantics, I realize, as well as an individual thing. But it's how I choose to best distinguish between my guns and my weapons.

:coffee:

[Willbird]

Neither did I, and I'm surprised. The last thing I expected here was a political correct banning of a word. Why not ban the word gun too? That can be just as offensive to some people, or explosive for that matter? I'm not ex-military, nor a police officer, nor a former one, but I know the definition of weapon, and while a relatively newcomer myself ( a year give or take) I'm offended by it's shunning, and frankly don't understand it. The only logical conclusion that I can think of for not using it would be to keep this site out of searches done with the "W" word.

Actually not using that word is part of NRA Instructor training. And even before I did that I refrained from using it. When we are pulled over carrying a gun in Ohio we have to "promptly notify" the LEO we are armed. I have had them ask "where is the weapon ?" and I automatically reply "The FIREARM is in the glove compartment".

My firearm only becomes a weapon when and if I am ever forced to use it against another human. I also load "cartridges" into my "magazines".....I do not put "bullets" in my "clip" :-).


Bill

[fatnhappy]

Quite often it seems we have to inform board newbees that we do not use the word 'weapon'. It's difficult for folks who have spent most of their lives in the military not to use that word, I know. But, everyone, please consider that word as an extremely offensive one here, even in a defensive situation. ... felix

sorry felix, I must respectfully disagree.

[runfiverun]

i just call a rifle a rifle or a pistol a pistol.
a revolver a revolver you get the idea. it is what it is.. i guess if you are using a cow's jaw to beat someone down its a weapon too.
but i don't go round refering to cows as weapons.

[felix]

No problem, Fatnhappy, but Recluse has is right on from where I am coming from. I actually used a baseball bat on a druggie (I assume) coming though my bedroom window. The apartment complex where Pat and I were living had no further "robberies" (attempted) for the remaining two years we stayed there. Up until that time the complex had troubles as it was reported to me by the manager/owner who lived there too. The location was near Troost & 39th in KCMO (3332 Charlotte), a cheap area for newly weds but very near to strip joints. ... felix

[scrapcan]

REcluse,

I hope you have better luck with taurus than I have. I have been waiting almost 5 months for springs for a model 94 22LR revolver. The damn thing was brand new in the box when I got it and I took it out and could hardly pull the trigger in double action (14.5 lb pull) single action was about two thirds of that. I called then and they said that is all normal but send it in. I took it to an ffl and had it sent to them. It came back with a clean bill of healt and all normal.

I thought to myself that was just not right so I pulled it down to do a clean and lube. I found both the main spring and the firing pin spring broke. The firing pin is stuck in the frame due to poor machining. Both springs were broke whenit came back. This gun was most likely not even looked at when sent back to TaurusUSA in Florida.

With the shipping cost to them I would have been better off to buy a smith or a ruger instead of this piece of crap. It woudl have only cost me another shipping charge to make up the difference.

If you find a good person at taurus usa to talk to that will get parts out I would like to know how to contact them.



I have been assured that parts are on their way. I call about every three weeks. Still no parts. I have given my credit card number to buy the parts and still no parts.

Never again will a taurus reside in my stable of guns.

[Ernest]

yahoo Felix!!!! Just has some subhuman break into my car while we were on vacation. There was nothing in it to steal but he busted both locks and a window. Right now the idea of a burglar being beat about the head and shoulders makes me smile:-D.

Any way just a random thought about the gun blow up. I have wondered if it is possible for a progressive lead build up just at the beginning ( I hope this makes sense) of the end of the chamber , in other words at the lip that the 9mm case is supposed to head space on could cause two simultaneous conditions that would cause a sudden pressure spike.

1. If that little bit of stand off could cause the gun to fire just a tiny amount out of battery

2. If that lead build up could make it impossible for the neck of the case to expand properly and release the bullet. If you were firing lead bullets I think that #2 would not have so much effect because the bullet would be malleable and would form to the shape of the neck of the case as it left the case. But a very heavily jacked bullet would not.

It seems me that the perfect scenario would be to fire a long string of very hard lead bullets while the build up occurred and then fire a FMJ ball round. Either #1 or # 2 probably would not be noticed but together they may set up that perfect storm situation that could cause a catastrophic case head failure that would damage the gun. Again just a thought.

[357maximum]

I never told anyone it was prohibited...I simply politely asked not to refer to them there tools that way..................do what you want...it was just a pretty please request from me personally after all.


Personally I do not own any weapons....I have alot of tools that could be a weapon....I carry one particualar tool under my shirt on my belt every day, so far it has not had to become a weapon against another human...hope it never does....the dog that forced it's transition from tool in reserve into a weapon made me feel bad enough.

[armyrat1970]

A gun/stick/rock/automobile/sligshot/2X4/lead pipe/ etc are not a weapon until used as such. Can we ALL please stop calling guns weapons here? A gun is just a piece of machinery until it is pointed at something breathing......with intent to stop said breathing.

Not picking on anyone individually here, especially a servicemans kid/ or serviceman.....we just need to stop this practice of calling a static object a "weapon" .

THANK YOU, rant over please carry on.... :wink:
Michael

The early caveman may have used sticks and logs as a club or spear or some type of knife for his survival. Maybe even the bones of some animal he killed afterwards. It was a defensive and aggresive "tool" for his survival. Later "tools" of this nature were greatly developed into much greater killing machines. Swords,sickles and even the club was developed into something more. The addition of gunpowder greatly increased the effectiveness of these "tools" They were all weapons and still are even if you refuse to call them by that name. Before any handgun or rifle (club, knife,sword) was ever used for recreation or "fun" or as a piece of "machinery" it was used as a weapon for defense, aggresion and survival. It is not a static object. Baseball bats are clubs and very deadly. So is a five iron. I would not call them a weapon as they were designed as a static object for the sport but they can be very effective weapons if the need arises. I do not buy any "firearm" as a static piece of machinery. My first concern in the purchase is for personal and home defense. Second is for survival. Last is for recreation or something that can be used as a stactic piece of machinery. I am an Army Vietnam veteran and all of my firearms, knives and swords are weapons and "tools" for my defense, protection of my family and personal belongings,survival and recreation. If I offend you or others by using the term weapon for them I do not apologize and feel that you and the others that are offended may need to grow up a little bit and get away from your sheepish type attitude and realize just exactually what it is you have in your hands that you take to the range or the field and have such sport with.
To you, felix, 357maximum I feel no need to apologize for using the term weapon. If you don't like me using the term, simply don't read anymore of my post. I know we have cander and humor here and I love it but I refuse to be called out as a child because of this.
"This is my rifle. This is my gun. This is for shooting. This is for fun."

[archmaker]

Glad to hear you are ok. Been there done that (last week). [smilie=1:

[captain-03]

Glad everything is fine and noone was hurt .... that would have scared the crap out of me!!

[rb dave]

Well, so much for my experiment with making a "super alloy" and pushing it to jacketed load levels to increase accuracy in 9mm.

Reference: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57954

On a quirk, I decided to test these rounds in the FN Hi-Power. Prior to testing them, I shot 50 rounds that I had sized to .357, but kept same powder load as I use for the .356. Boolit is a TL124RN.

Sizing to .357 helped only slightly, and I do mean slightly. When I tried the "super alloy" boolits, sized .356, it was disasterous--flyers everywhere. About the only thing I DIDN'T get were keyholes. I didn't even finish the box of rounds--will use my handy-dandy Hornady Cam-Lock bullet-puller on the remaining 25 rounds.

So, I then pull out my beloved Taurus 92 that I've had for 21 years and shot who-knows how many thousands and thousands of rounds through. I load it up with some old DOJ issue Remington 115 gr FMJ practice rounds. Fourth shot, the damn gun blows up in my hand--I have some really nice powder burns on my right hand and a couple on my left-hand index and middle fingers. Had some minor bleeding, but no big deal. All the fingers work and I stopped by a doc-in-the-box to get everything cleaned up and out really well, and then asked for an antibiotics shot. Too much nasty stuff at a gun-range, and I figured better safe than sorry.

Have no idea what happened. The slide jacked back really hard, but the rounds (Remington factory practice ammo) were just standard factory FMJ. The hammer was locked back and one of the pins that is connected to the double-action mechanisms was broke, another piece on the frame was bent out almost 30 degrees from centerline, but other than that, everything on the frame is intact. Slide and barrel are absolutely good.

Beats the hades out of me what happened.

Will be packing up the frame and shipping it to Taurus next week, along with the gun's history and an incident report. It has an unconditional Lifetime Warranty (excluding obvious abuse) and only other time I've needed that warranty was when a locking-block that is part of the barrel/spring mechanism broke. I sent in the broken one, Taurus sent me a new one--took less than two weeks, and no hassles.

We'll see what happens here.

:coffee:

almost had same thing with rem fmj 38sp target loads in s&w 2inch, twice!!. bullet report was low,no blackening inside case and bullet stayed in barrel of an otherwise clean gun. both times were on second shot.just lucky trigger was not pulled again. this ammo was purchased approx 1 year prev for concealed carry course and stored in dry place. also lucky i didnt have a threatening reason to fire a third round. may be a connection to rem target loads?

[rb dave]

Good thought on the tetanus--but I'm current.

The Remington ammo was issued to me back in 1988, and there's no telling when it was manufactured. Back in my LE days, we used to order the stuff by the truckload--.38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm, 45 ACP, .223, .308 and all sorts of 12-guage shotgun ammo.

Nice thing about being a fed in a small/mid-sized town. Very little oversight, very handsome budget, and in the case of the U.S. Marshals back then, they did want you to shoot and shoot a lot. In my case, my boss (the gold badge) was an expert shot because he shot every day and practiced hard. He'd also done it in real life and knew the importance of staying not just proficient, but expert. He never said no to any ammuntion order I put in for the office.

I have a lot of that factory ammo left, and occasionally will take a box out to run through one of the guns.

I had been shooting the cast boolits through the FN Hi-Power--no lead through the Taurus, so leading/obstruction wasn't an issue. And, I'm religious about cleaning my guns after shooting them--especially the handguns.

On one hand, I'm grateful it was the Taurus rather than the FN. I baby that FN for the most part, and after the Taurus blew, realized how stooopid I was for running hot, max rounds through the FN.

But on the other hand, I went through two Beretta 92's that broke while firing and that's how I ended up with the Taurus. There are several things I like about it better than the Beretta--the cocked and locked safety being primary among them--and it ended up being my primary duty-weapon for several years.

Yes, I did say weapon because when you're a cop and frequently working alone chasing bad guys or transporting prisoners or doing witness protection, you need a weapon more than you need a gun. That Taurus saw action, more than once, and it saved lives, more than once.

I'm working up a brief "histoire" of the gun for the folks at Taurus. I know a couple of folks who used to work for Smith & Wesson. They always told us that they enjoyed hearing and reading about "tales from the gun" on sidearms sent back to to them for repair or tune-up or customization. I doubt Taurus is any different.

I've read some negative things about Taurus quality and customer service in the past few years. We bought a Judge to keep in the airplane as a survival gun. I've seen firsthand some sloppy workmanship in the new stuff. Yet, a close friend and retired Marine bought a Taurus 1911, did his USMC armorer work to it (same as he did/does on ALL his .45 ACP pistols) and that gun is now his primary carry gun, he loves it so much.

We'll see how they handle this repair.

:coffee:

sent my raging bull in last fall. they recieved it 12/16/08 and deemed it unrepairable and sent me a new one. finally recieved it june 4. it was very poor finished, deep scratches in several places. sent back and they polished it and returned to me by third week of july. now seems to be as good as my origional. just took too long and cust service totally sucked

[357maximum]

The early caveman may have used sticks and logs as a club or spear or some type of knife for his survival. Maybe even the bones of some animal he killed afterwards. It was a defensive and aggresive "tool" for his survival. Later "tools" of this nature were greatly developed into much greater killing machines. Swords,sickles and even the club was developed into something more. The addition of gunpowder greatly increased the effectiveness of these "tools" They were all weapons and still are even if you refuse to call them by that name. Before any handgun or rifle (club, knife,sword) was ever used for recreation or "fun" or as a piece of "machinery" it was used as a weapon for defense, aggresion and survival. It is not a static object. Baseball bats are clubs and very deadly. So is a five iron. I would not call them a weapon as they were designed as a static object for the sport but they can be very effective weapons if the need arises. I do not buy any "firearm" as a static piece of machinery. My first concern in the purchase is for personal and home defense. Second is for survival. Last is for recreation or something that can be used as a stactic piece of machinery. I am an Army Vietnam veteran and all of my firearms, knives and swords are weapons and "tools" for my defense, protection of my family and personal belongings,survival and recreation. If I offend you or others by using the term weapon for them I do not apologize and feel that you and the others that are offended may need to grow up a little bit and get away from your sheepish type attitude and realize just exactually what it is you have in your hands that you take to the range or the field and have such sport with.
To you, felix, 357maximum I feel no need to apologize for using the term weapon. If you don't like me using the term, simply don't read anymore of my post. I know we have cander and humor here and I love it but I refuse to be called out as a child because of this.
"This is my rifle. This is my gun. This is for shooting. This is for fun."



First I want to thank you for the time you spent/ sacrifices you made as a weapon of/for diplomacy. Secondly I do not believe we think all that different...it is just a mere matter of degrees to which we view such objects. You call em a weapon that can be used for recreation. I see em as recreational toys that can be a weapon when called upon as such.

The best weapons system ever devised was the human brain, I would not want to be viewed as a weapon. Different take on the same view. We live in messed up times....I personally would much rather be viewed as owning a toy box full of recreational toys....not an arsenal of death and destruction.....to each their own.

I never asked anyone for an apology or called them a child. I simply made a request in the terminology department, not as a mod either......just a simple request from a man that sees how the world views gun owners and does not like their view, and who is willing to stick his neck out from time to time to try to change certain popular viewpoints. I only asked..I never demanded..big difference..LIKE I SAID EARLIER.........CARRY ON.

[Lead Fred]

I blew up a Python when I was 16, by not reading the load data correctly.

I have never loaded another handgun round since.

The 10 months with a patch on one eye and powder burns I see everyday are a might steep learning curve

[AZ-Stew]

I own a number of firearms. Some short, some long, some with smooth bores. I've tried to choose some of them to have characteristics that would also make them decent weapons, if I need them to be.

I choose to use the word "firearm" because it's both descriptive and not offensive to some people. I've found this to bear dividends during social debates.

Regards,

Stew

[hunter64]

A gun/stick/rock/automobile/sligshot/2X4/lead pipe/ etc are not a weapon until used as such. Can we ALL please stop calling guns weapons here? A gun is just a piece of machinery until it is pointed at something breathing......with intent to stop said breathing.

Not picking on anyone individually here, especially a servicemans kid/ or serviceman.....we just need to stop this practice of calling a static object a "weapon" .

THANK YOU, rant over please carry on.... :wink:
Michael

I agree, and to add to that the word GUN is actually wrong also. A GUN is found on a battleship or in the field as an artillery piece (Howitzer). Those are the only two places an actual GUN (and there variants)are used. Having served in the Military that fact was drilled into us like you wouldn't believe, many push ups and 5 mile runs if you forgot that fact and inadvertently slipped up.

Friend of the father-in-laws had a .41 Mag blackhawk that he double charged with Unique and blew the cylinder apart and the top strap was about 1/2" bowed up. He gave it to me and I sold the parts that I didn't need and kept the grip frame and the small internals.

Found out the hard way that Taurus doesn't warranty anything outside the US. In Canada you can't even get parts for a Taurus without circumventing one law or another. Lets just say you really roll the dice if you buy a Taurus product in Canada and for that fact they are not very popular up here. They sell well for first time owners but once something breaks and you need a 5 dollar part, may the force be with you.

Thank goodness for cousins that live in the US. lol

[cajun shooter]

I feel that when we take the step to not offend certain people we have already taken the first step to do as they want. I was a 4th infantry GI from 65-67. Everything and yes myself even was considered a weapon. The person who posted that humans are not weapons is very wrong!! When I became a law enforcement officer I again carried and used weapons. Weapons are just like pills, they have both good and bad uses. It depends what you do with it but it is still a pill. It's not a capsule filled with prescribed medication. It's silly to worry what the people who want to take our weapons feel like. They could care less what you call it they are going to keep you from having it. I'm like Ted Nugent on the CCW video. I don't give a damn when it comes to myself and my loved ones. I will use a weapon to put the dirty SOB in the ground before he does it to me. Get real People!!

[oldtoolsniper]

I am glad you are Ok!




I spent my career as an Armorer in the Marine Corps. I have seen a pile of destroyed while shooting weapons and trying to figure out what happed is tough. On one range in twenty minutes we lost for M-16’s, the receivers blew sending for Marines back to the ship hospital. I spilt the barrels on a band saw; they had small rocks obstructing the barrels. With the load bearing gear the magazines are in pouches across your chest, if you put them boolit up and crawl through the desert they scoop up the rocks and sand. When you fire the weapon the rocks and sand are fed into it as well. Training is tough but that is how lessons are learned.

Freedom of Speech is just one of the many reasons I was a Marine for twenty-three years. When we choose to not exercise our rights because someone else wants to impose their will upon us, then we are in effect giving up our rights of our own free will.

[jimkim]

Well, so much for my experiment with making a "super alloy" and pushing it to jacketed load levels to increase accuracy in 9mm.

Reference: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57954

On a quirk, I decided to test these rounds in the FN Hi-Power. Prior to testing them, I shot 50 rounds that I had sized to .357, but kept same powder load as I use for the .356. Boolit is a TL124RN.

Sizing to .357 helped only slightly, and I do mean slightly. When I tried the "super alloy" boolits, sized .356, it was disasterous--flyers everywhere. About the only thing I DIDN'T get were keyholes. I didn't even finish the box of rounds--will use my handy-dandy Hornady Cam-Lock bullet-puller on the remaining 25 rounds.

So, I then pull out my beloved Taurus 92 that I've had for 21 years and shot who-knows how many thousands and thousands of rounds through. I load it up with some old DOJ issue Remington 115 gr FMJ practice rounds. Fourth shot, the damn gun blows up in my hand--I have some really nice powder burns on my right hand and a couple on my left-hand index and middle fingers. Had some minor bleeding, but no big deal. All the fingers work and I stopped by a doc-in-the-box to get everything cleaned up and out really well, and then asked for an antibiotics shot. Too much nasty stuff at a gun-range, and I figured better safe than sorry.

Have no idea what happened. The slide jacked back really hard, but the rounds (Remington factory practice ammo) were just standard factory FMJ. The hammer was locked back and one of the pins that is connected to the double-action mechanisms was broke, another piece on the frame was bent out almost 30 degrees from centerline, but other than that, everything on the frame is intact. Slide and barrel are absolutely good.

Beats the hades out of me what happened.

Will be packing up the frame and shipping it to Taurus next week, along with the gun's history and an incident report. It has an unconditional Lifetime Warranty (excluding obvious abuse) and only other time I've needed that warranty was when a locking-block that is part of the barrel/spring mechanism broke. I sent in the broken one, Taurus sent me a new one--took less than two weeks, and no hassles.

We'll see what happens here.

:coffee:

I'd chalk it up to just another bad experience with Remington ammo. I posted a few of the bad things I've seen happen with their factory ammo if anybody wants to look it up. They only had to burn me(literally) once, for me to learn.

[Lead Fred]

I choose to use the word "firearm" because it's both descriptive and not offensive to some people.

/CONCUR

None of my firearms are guns, and surely not weapons......

Yet, my swords are weapons.

[armyrat1970]

First I want to thank you for the time you spent/ sacrifices you made as a weapon of/for diplomacy. Secondly I do not believe we think all that different...it is just a mere matter of degrees to which we view such objects. You call em a weapon that can be used for recreation. I see em as recreational toys that can be a weapon when called upon as such.

The best weapons system ever devised was the human brain, I would not want to be viewed as a weapon. Different take on the same view. We live in messed up times....I personally would much rather be viewed as owning a toy box full of recreational toys....not an arsenal of death and destruction.....to each their own.

I never asked anyone for an apology or called them a child. I simply made a request in the terminology department, not as a mod either......just a simple request from a man that sees how the world views gun owners and does not like their view, and who is willing to stick his neck out from time to time to try to change certain popular viewpoints. I only asked..I never demanded..big difference..LIKE I SAID EARLIER.........CARRY ON.

Yes of course. We that have served, and now serving, especially in times of war, know full well we are a weapon of or for diplomacy. The diplomacy is left up to our government. The fighting, or use of the weapons we were trained to use as a killing "tool" or "machine" is left up to the individual with boots on the ground. Perhaps we do agree on some things but I see one thing that we vastly disagree on. I will not walk on egg shells around some left wing liberal just because they may hate the terminology "weapon". How many have fought and died for the freedom of the sheep to keep their right to voice their opinion. They will not fight, but because of the ones that do ,they still have the right to voice their opinion. Sorry but I will not walk on egg shells around them but will fight for those same given freedoms they have to voice them, if I have to again. And this time may be coming and in the coming years many that choose not to call a weapon a weapon may wish he or she had and knew full well how to use one.

[sheepdog]

I was a tanker (19Kilo, 2nd armored div). We were taught our main cannon is "the gun", our ma-deuce, coax, etc "weapon systems" and the m-16 "service rifle", m9 "service pistol" or "sidearm" for officers.



I agree, and to add to that the word GUN is actually wrong also. A GUN is found on a battleship or in the field as an artillery piece (Howitzer). Those are the only two places an actual GUN (and there variants)are used. Having served in the Military that fact was drilled into us like you wouldn't believe, many push ups and 5 mile runs if you forgot that fact and inadvertently slipped up.

Friend of the father-in-laws had a .41 Mag blackhawk that he double charged with Unique and blew the cylinder apart and the top strap was about 1/2" bowed up. He gave it to me and I sold the parts that I didn't need and kept the grip frame and the small internals.

Found out the hard way that Taurus doesn't warranty anything outside the US. In Canada you can't even get parts for a Taurus without circumventing one law or another. Lets just say you really roll the dice if you buy a Taurus product in Canada and for that fact they are not very popular up here. They sell well for first time owners but once something breaks and you need a 5 dollar part, may the force be with you.

Thank goodness for cousins that live in the US. lol

[Treeman]

A gun/stick/rock/automobile/sligshot/2X4/lead pipe/ etc are not a weapon until used as such. Can we ALL please stop calling guns weapons here? A gun is just a piece of machinery until it is pointed at something breathing......with intent to stop said breathing.

Not picking on anyone individually here, especially a servicemans kid/ or serviceman.....we just need to stop this practice of calling a static object a "weapon" .

THANK YOU, rant over please carry on.... :wink:
Michael


Michael, I enjoyed your rant. It made me suddenly think how much fun it would be to talk with libs about their automobiles using a change in terminology. "How many MPG does your weapon get?" What is the 0-60 accelleration of your weapon like?" "Does you weapon have a good sound system?"
They might get frustrated as the conversation focuses on the fallacy of demonizing objects simply because they are sometimes used for purposes that some people don't approve of. ....We can talk about little league or golf. "So you bought your son a new set of weapons?-Graphite of steel shafts?."
" I'm old school when it comes to softball. No aluminium weapons for me -good ole ash".:-D

[357maximum]

Michael, I enjoyed your rant. It made me suddenly think how much fun it would be to talk with libs about their automobiles using a change in terminology. "How many MPG does your weapon get?" What is the 0-60 accelleration of your weapon like?" "Does you weapon have a good sound system?"
They might get frustrated as the conversation focuses on the fallacy of demonizing objects simply because they are sometimes used for purposes that some people don't approve of. ....We can talk about little league or golf. "So you bought your son a new set of weapons?-Graphite of steel shafts?."
" I'm old school when it comes to softball. No aluminium weapons for me -good ole ash".:-D

:twisted:That would be a blast:mrgreen:...BTW you have a sick and twisted sense of humor...keep up the good work.:drinks:

[JDFuchs]

Ouch, im glad your alright!

I refuse to go to any range with out a decent first aid kit. Never know what might happen and with any little injury its nice to have there.

Facotry ammo can be rather bad stuff at times. The last box of 20 243win I got at wallmart had 4-5 duds that the primer failed to set off the main charge!! You could have had anything from a mag primer stuck in there to a double charge.

[Whitespider]

This post is not intended to ruffle feathers... It is simply a deep-seated ideology.


Didn't realize there was a policy against using the W word....
Neither was I, and I’m more than a bit surprised. However, I will succumb to the will of the board, under extreme protest. I do not play the political correctness game in any way, shape or form.


Can we ALL please stop calling guns weapons here? A gun is just a piece of machinery until it is pointed at something breathing......with intent to stop said breathing.
True, a modern gun is a machine.
But the gun was devised and invented from the need for a better weapon. By its very definition the gun is a weapon.


...please consider that word as an extremely offensive one here, even in a defensive situation.
Offensive? Why? Is it dishonorable to arm oneself with a defensive weapon? Is not the Second Amendment completely about the honorable act of arming oneself with weapons for defense of self, family, property, community and, last but not least, our beloved Country? What possible reason can there be for trying to cloak this honorable act in some politically correct terminology? When I place my pistol into my belt every morning am I not honorably arming myself with a weapon of personal defense. If it isn’t intended as a defensive weapon, why am I carrying it?


Actually not using that word is part of NRA Instructor training...
Too my very great disappointment the NRA has gone the way of appeasement over the last several years. Men like Cooper, Jordan and Heston must be hanging their heads in shame.


Haven't had a Weapon (Issue/Combat MBR/Sidearm) or a Gun (Howitzer) since getting out of the Army. I have several Rifles and Shotguns, and a few Pistols & Revolvers...

...the word GUN is actually wrong also. A GUN is found on a battleship or in the field as an artillery piece (Howitzer). Those are the only two places an actual GUN (and there variants) are used.

We were taught our main cannon is "the gun"...
Out of necessity the military uses its own terminology, designed to keep everyone on the same page during times of utter chaos and pandemonium. That does not mean that it is the proper English definition. Below from a very quick search of dictionary definitions....

Gun -noun
a weapon consisting of a metal tube, with mechanical attachments, from which projectiles are shot by the force of an explosive; a piece of ordnance.
any portable firearm, as a rifle, shotgun, or revolver.
a long-barreled cannon having a relatively flat trajectory.
any device for shooting something under pressure.

Firearm -noun
a small arms weapon, as a rifle or pistol, from which a projectile is fired by gunpowder.
a weapon, especially a pistol or rifle, capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant.

Arm -noun
Usually, arms. weapon, esp. firearms.

Arm -verb
to equip with weapons.


Personally I do not own any weapons...
I must disagree with rigor.


...it is just a mere matter of degrees to which we view such objects. You call em a weapon that can be used for recreation. I see em as recreational toys that can be a weapon when called upon as such. The best weapons system ever devised was the human brain...
The human brain is not a weapons system, but it did devise them.

None of my firearms are guns, and surely not weapons... Yet, my swords are weapons.

Now we’ve entered into hypocrisy.

[Whitespider]

Don’t you see?
Doesn’t the NRA understand that by separating the word “weapon” from “gun” or “firearm” you only open doors for the opposition? The Second Amendment they so dearly hold on too is about nothing else but weapons and their personal ownership and honorable bearing!!!!
If we claim not to own weapons, but only sporting arms, guns or firearms, what’s to stop a new classification of “a weapon”?
It’s already happened!! Remember the assault weapons ban, the ban on hi-cap magazines, flash suppressors...
Don’t ever think for one second that playing the game by the opposition's rules (i.e. political correctness in this case) is gonna’ help... I will guaranty it will come back and bite you square in the @$$!!!!

[thenaaks]

gun, weapon, firearm, pistol....whatever!!! i think every member of this forum owns a rifle or pistol, and is all about their 2nd Amendment Right. Now if some liberal weiner gets on here spouting the "w" word, then feel free to chastise them. we're all refering to the same thing, just a different name...no biggie!

recluse, i am sorry to hear about your favorite gun. i too have a pt-92 that i absolutely love. i'm going to go tear it apart and make sure everything looks ok. you've got me scared now!

you said you were working up an incident report (or something like that) for taurus. just a thought here: in my owners manual there is a warning about using reloaded ammo...and something to the effect of void warranty. (i know...B.S.) might want to leave that tidbit of info out of the report.

as for taurus customer service...they royally suck.
i sent back a model 94 22 revolver that would only go bang once or twice out of 9 rounds....when i got it back (a couple months later...booooo) it did shoot like a charm...seemingly smoother trigger too...had a list of repairs....still shooting great. so, good luck!

oh yeah, glad to hear no serious injuries...the sore butt sucks...i had a penicillin shot that made me walk funny for 2 weeks...no fun

[Shiloh]

Well, so much for my experiment with making a "super alloy" and pushing it to jacketed load levels to increase accuracy in 9mm.

Reference: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57954

On a quirk, I decided to test these rounds in the FN Hi-Power. Prior to testing them, I shot 50 rounds that I had sized to .357, but kept same powder load as I use for the .356. Boolit is a TL124RN.

Sizing to .357 helped only slightly, and I do mean slightly. When I tried the "super alloy" boolits, sized .356, it was disasterous--flyers everywhere. About the only thing I DIDN'T get were keyholes. I didn't even finish the box of rounds--will use my handy-dandy Hornady Cam-Lock bullet-puller on the remaining 25 rounds.

So, I then pull out my beloved Taurus 92 that I've had for 21 years and shot who-knows how many thousands and thousands of rounds through. I load it up with some old DOJ issue Remington 115 gr FMJ practice rounds. Fourth shot, the damn gun blows up in my hand--I have some really nice powder burns on my right hand and a couple on my left-hand index and middle fingers. Had some minor bleeding, but no big deal. All the fingers work and I stopped by a doc-in-the-box to get everything cleaned up and out really well, and then asked for an antibiotics shot. Too much nasty stuff at a gun-range, and I figured better safe than sorry.

Have no idea what happened. The slide jacked back really hard, but the rounds (Remington factory practice ammo) were just standard factory FMJ. The hammer was locked back and one of the pins that is connected to the double-action mechanisms was broke, another piece on the frame was bent out almost 30 degrees from centerline, but other than that, everything on the frame is intact. Slide and barrel are absolutely good.

Beats the hades out of me what happened.

Will be packing up the frame and shipping it to Taurus next week, along with the gun's history and an incident report. It has an unconditional Lifetime Warranty (excluding obvious abuse) and only other time I've needed that warranty was when a locking-block that is part of the barrel/spring mechanism broke. I sent in the broken one, Taurus sent me a new one--took less than two weeks, and no hassles.

We'll see what happens here.

:coffee:

Any Pics??

Shiloh

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Glad your OK!!!:):drinks: Good luck with your new flinch problem, I hope you don't have one, but it may take some real Concentration on your part for a bit to get it right again, been there done that.

[Recluse]

you said you were working up an incident report (or something like that) for taurus. just a thought here: in my owners manual there is a warning about using reloaded ammo...and something to the effect of void warranty. (i know...B.S.) might want to leave that tidbit of info out of the report.

Fortunately (or not), I was shooting factory ammo when the incident occurred--and that is exactly what I'll put in my report.

I've never had any problems with Remington ammo. We had a contract with them in the 80's, and I shot case after case after case of .38 Wadcutters, 9mm FMJ, 45 FMJ, .223, etc. No problems.

No pictures of any of it. I found what broke on the frame and am pointing that out to Taurus. It seems the "trigger bar" pin is what broke, allowing the trigger bar to "pop out" from the frame and allowing the slide/trigger to jack way too far back.

I am not an armorer for Taurus or Beretta, so this is only a guess based upon the broken part I found. Odd piece to break, though. That's why I'm boxing it up and and sending it to Miami. Figure I'll be without it for a couple of months. However, I will be on the phone with them after the first two/three weeks, and at least once a week afterwards.

I used to be one of their biggest supporters. I'll let them know I can just as easily become one of their biggest detractors. But I will have to be fair--Taurus sells a LOT of guns. The numbers are going to work against you when it comes to warranty work.

But that's what separates the top-shelf companies. I used to have more trouble from Colt than any other manufacturer when it came to getting work done/repairs fixed. Haven't had to send in a gun in over twenty years, so we'll see how it goes. I'm not optimistic, though.

Went shooting on Monday. No flinch whatsoever with any of the guns. And I'm on my way to having one heckuva superb 30-06 load with my .3092001R boolit and some IMR4350.

:coffee:

[armyrat1970]

I have heard both good and bad about Taurus service. I hope yours is one of the good and they will get your "firearm" back to you quickly with full repairs.

[armyrat1970]

:drinks:
Don’t you see?
Doesn’t the NRA understand that by separating the word “weapon” from “gun” or “firearm” you only open doors for the opposition? The Second Amendment they so dearly hold on too is about nothing else but weapons and their personal ownership and honorable bearing!!!!
If we claim not to own weapons, but only sporting arms, guns or firearms, what’s to stop a new classification of “a weapon”?
It’s already happened!! Remember the assault weapons ban, the ban on hi-cap magazines, flash suppressors...
Don’t ever think for one second that playing the game by the opposition's rules (i.e. political correctness in this case) is gonna’ help... I will guaranty it will come back and bite you square in the @$$!!!!

:drinks: