Duds?

[Longhunter1757]

Not sure if I should post this here or perhaps under leverguns so if it's in the wrong place, Mods please move.

Just started reloading for my son's Marlin 336 30-30.
Rem. Brass, Rem 9 1/2 primers, 748 and Unique powders, 100 gr Sierra Plinker bullets.

Out of like 30 loads (developing plinking/groundhog loads for him to get familiar with the gun) I got 7 total that didn't go boom. This was after several hits on each. One that didn't go boom the first time did go on the second hammer drop but the others will not go boom at all.

At first I thought maybe I didn't seat them deep enough so the next batch I hit them a little harder and still have the same issue.

All look like good solid firing pin hits to me.

Never had this problem before guys and I'm pretty sure it's something I've done.
Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Longhunter1757

[RayinNH]

New primers or old,stored in the heat for a long time, maybe contaminated if they're old...Ray

[jim4065]

Any problems with new factory ammunition? Any chance you're getting traces of oil on the primers?

[Longhunter1757]

Brand new primers. Just got them Saturday morning. Actually surprised I found some.

Forgot to mention that the other loads I had (reloads from the guy I got the rifle from, trusted reloader) all fired perfectly. These were Winchester LR primers though.

Longhunter1757

[RayinNH]

Try loading these primers in a different cartridge, different gun combo. If the next firearm works correctly, it's the gun. How about the powder, new or old? Any chance the powder didn't receive proper storage?...Ray

[Longhunter1757]

Unfortunately I don't have another rifle I can try these in. I mostly load 45 Colt, 45 ACP, .223 and .222 Rem.

As far as the powders, the 748 is a fresh can and the Unique isn't that old, perhaps a year and definitely was stored properly as it's wokring fin in mu 45 Colt loads.

The ones that didn't go off just didn't go off. The primers didn't appear to fire at all.

Perhaps it is possible that I got that many true dud primers?
The thing is I've never heard of this before. One maybe but not 7 or 8.

Longhunter1757

[RayinNH]

Do you still have the dud primers? If so load them in the .45 Colt cases with no powder or boolits, just primers only and see if they fire. If so maybe your rifle has a problem...Ray

[Longhunter1757]

RayinNH,

I've still got them. They're still in the loaded cartridges. Haven't got around to pulling them yet.


Thanks!

Longhunter1757

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Hmmm…. A high primer will usually go boom on the second hit, so that does not sound like your problem. Besides you should be 100% positive that your primers are seated properly with any load, but especially a rifle with a tubular magazine. Seeing as the gun works fine with your friends loads and factory rounds, something must be up with your primers. With what tool do you seat the primers? Assuming you lube and full length size your brass are you sure there was no trace amount of sizer lube on your brass? I retumble my brass after sizing just to be sure.

The only misfires I have ever had were because the gun was defective. However I once witnessed a friend have 6 duds that would not go bang period out of a 100 45Colt rounds. He blamed the Remington brand primers. There was a healthy dent in the primer so it did not appear to be the gun’s fault. One time I happened to be around while he was handloading. He did everything wrong, flipped the primers with his hands instead of gently shaking the tray, grabbed a pinch of powder with his fingers to add to the scale because it was faster then using a trickler, ate, drank, talked, and once he even primed and charged a tray of brass and left them out exposed on his bench for two or three days until I brought him some of my own cast boolits for him to seat. If your reloading habits sound like my friends then I think we have found your problem.

Also as the other have mentioned storage of both the ammo and components can have a huge effect on reliability.

[lylejb]

Do you still have the dud primers? If so load them in the .45 Colt cases

I thought decaping (possibly) live primers was asking for trouble!!:shock:

the decapping pin pushes on the anvil from the inside, exactly in the middle, and could cause them to go off:eek:

I don't think i would try it!!

LB

[RayinNH]

Manufacturers are very good at primer making. I find it hard to believe there would be that many duds so more than likely the problem is elsewhere. If the powder is new that's probably fine too. We can't tell where your from, do you store your cartridges primer down, warm temps could melt your lube and contaminate your primers...Ray

[oneokie]

If you remove the dud primers from the brass, inspect the primer cup for priming compound.

[RayinNH]

lyle, not if done slowly. Approach the primer slowly, no crashing into the primer...Ray

[leadman]

I've decapped lots of live primers and reinstalled them in cartridge cases without any problems. This has been discussed here before.
Just be gentle when you are doing it, wear proper safety gear, make sure all the powder is out of the cases.
Watch for tumbling media in the flash hole before and during depriming. This will cause misfires.

[Longhunter1757]

2ndAmendmentNut ,
I use a Lyman primer die to seat all my primers. I really didn't think I had seated them too shallow but I wanted to eliminate that possibility. The press did cam over so I'm 100% positive that they're all the way in now.
I make sure my hands are very clean and dry before ever touching the primers.
All cases are loaded within an hour of priming.
I full length sized them with a liquid lube and pad and then washed the cases in very hot water and liquid detergent afterwards and let them dry overnight. In fact, these last few batches dried over 48 hours. I'll tumble the unprimed ones again just to be sure as I'm sure there's a possibility of contamination but as I said, I never had this problem before.

LyleJB, I thought this very thought right after my post. I think I'll pass on this too especially since they already have pin hits on them.

Thanks!

Longhunter1757

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Well your loading techniques all seem kosher. Maybe the brass is at fault, those few that didn’t go boom may have a slightly deeper primer pocket. Then again if there is a healthy dent this would not be your problem. I personally would try to duplicate your friends loads and see what happens. If you are still having problems have a gunsmith take a look at the gun.

[runfiverun]

i bet it's bad primers, i had a box with about 10 that didn't work before.
i have also seen small rifle primers [bench rest] that had over 50 bad ones in a thousand.
i have also had brass that just didn't play nice, sort the brass pull down mark them and try again.

[oneokie]

Another thought, check the dud primers for the anvil being in place. Stranger things have been known to happen.

[rhead]

Could you be pressing too hard when you seat the primer. Too much pressure applied slowly and over the entire face of the primer can damage the compound and cause misfires.
Keep looking and keep us posted on what is found.

[Longhunter1757]

2ndAmendmentNut,
Thanks for taking the time to help me with this.
I'm going to pick up a box of factory loads and see what happens. If I have any issues there I'll get it looked at.

rhead - I wasn't aware this is possible. Honestly the last ones I primed I leaned on them pretty good to be sure they were all the way in. Perhaps I should back it off a little and seat them more gently. It' spossible I seated them too hard the first time also.

onokie - I visually checked every primer on the last few batches for this reason.
Call me anal but I know how manufacturers can make mistakes and not just in the shooting sports.

Thanks again!

Longhunter1757

[Rockydog]

Longhunter, I agree with rhead. If you a reefing on the primer seater so hard that the press cams over you are using waaaay too much muscle. Priming is a delicate task done more by feel than muscle. Use a firm but measured stroke. You should feel the primer bottom in the cup. If you crush them in too hard you can crack or grind the priming compound leaving metal to metal contact with no priming compound sandwiched in between to go off when the firing pin hits.

[twidget]

2ndAmendmentNut ,

I full length sized them with a liquid lube and pad and then washed the cases in very hot water and liquid detergent afterwards and let them dry overnight. In fact, these last few batches dried over 48 hours. I'll tumble the unprimed ones again just to be sure as I'm sure there's a possibility of contamination but as I said, I never had this problem before.



I had the same thing happen to me many years ago. I had washed the cases and thought they had dried long enough (overnight as I recall). The primer pockets were dry anyway.
When I went to the range there were several duds. I pulled them down and found wet primers and powder. You can be sure that never happened to me again. When you pull one apart I predict you will find a wet primer.

[Longhunter1757]

Thanks gentlemen for all the replies.
I think I've narrowed it down to just plain bad primers which I'm going to check more closely OR and this is a big possibility, I seated them too hard and too far.
Also going to pull the bad loads and check for the possibility of contamination and look REAL close at those primers.

Thanks again!!!

Longhunter1757

[AZ-Stew]

If you're seating the primer until the press "cams over", I'll wager you are crushing your primers. It should never take that much force to seat a primer.

I gave up using my single-stage press for a priming tool long ago. Since you're not loading large volumes at a time, it might be in your best interest to invest in one of the Lee hand priming tools and the shell holder set that goes with it. Using that tool you can feel when the primer is seated. You'll have to experiment with it a bit to be sure the primers are below flush with the case head. Do not force the lever any farther than the amount required to get the primer just below flush.

Regards,

Stew

[lurch]

Got into this situation one time myself. New brass by any chance? I had a batch some 20 years or so ago (223 Rem - Win manufacture, CCI 450's) that the primer pocket was very tight on a few. Need to really crank on the priming tool to get the little boogers to seat in those cases. I suspect I damaged the pellet on a few and got some mis-fires. After the initial fight with them, they seemed to work fine.

[Longhunter1757]

Well gentlemen you were correct.
I tried a new batch with some primers that I was a little more carefull with and they all went boom.
Just goes to show that you can always learn something new. Thankfully this time it only cost me a few primers.

Thanks so much for your help!!

Longhunter1757

[Wayne Smith]

At least for CCI's you really have to heave on a primer to destroy it. I have literally left the impression of the primer seater on some CCI's and they have fired. Is it possible that the rim is too thin on the brass and it's not headspacing?

[Echo]

Are all the duds with 748, or are they split with Unique? If so, are the 748 loads light loads? 'Way less than recommended minimum loads? If so, could be the ball powder's well known dislike for short loads.

[ronterry]

I'll just through this out there, but five years ago I had a bad box of primers! I good 35% failure rate from a box of 1K CCI-350. Some would go boom after two or three hits, the rest would not go boom at all. Always wondered if the foil between the compounds was out of specs, cause they where seated fine and looked OK from the outside, and even had nice firing pin divots on them? Never had that problem since, and in fact if I got one bad one out of 5K I would be surprised! Never rule out 'Friday afternoon' primers if you know what I mean. This is why I teach tap-rack-boom drills to my family till I'm blue in the face!

[Lloyd Smale]

my guess is that you have a worn out firing pin or spring. They do wear out in the marlins.
Not sure if I should post this here or perhaps under leverguns so if it's in the wrong place, Mods please move.

Just started reloading for my son's Marlin 336 30-30.
Rem. Brass, Rem 9 1/2 primers, 748 and Unique powders, 100 gr Sierra Plinker bullets.

Out of like 30 loads (developing plinking/groundhog loads for him to get familiar with the gun) I got 7 total that didn't go boom. This was after several hits on each. One that didn't go boom the first time did go on the second hammer drop but the others will not go boom at all.

At first I thought maybe I didn't seat them deep enough so the next batch I hit them a little harder and still have the same issue.

All look like good solid firing pin hits to me.

Never had this problem before guys and I'm pretty sure it's something I've done.
Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Longhunter1757

[Longhunter1757]

It was definitely my fault. I had about 6 cases that I had primed but not charged.
I pressed out the primers (very carefully) and checked. On one the anvil fell right out and another I could see the compound was cracked. The others looked OK so I tried them just for giggles without charging and they all fired just fine.
Subsequent loads, without me leaning on the primers, all fired just fine.

thanks again all!!!!

Longhunter1757