Heavy Bullets in .45 Auto Rim [Archive]

Grapeshot

07-25-2009, 06:36 PM

Ever since the mid 1970's I've had a M1917 revolver of one sort or another. I started out with a Colt and owned four S&W's over the years. I finally picked up a S&W 625 with a four inch barrel in 1989. I really dispised the half-moon and full moon clips I was forced to use to get the cases out of the chambers after I fired the .45ACP ammo.

I had about 500 .45 Auto Rim cases that I picked up in 1990 and put up until recently. Factory Remington .45AR came with a 230 grain lead bullet loaded to .45 ACP spec's. This did not endear me to round at first.

I had purchased a copy of "Pet Loads" from Wolfe Publishing and found that the author had made .455 Elly ammo from .45 AR brass by turning the rims thinner from the front of the rim.

He then loaded them up with 250 to 265 grain lead bullets on top of some stiff loads of smokeless powder.

He was using these loads in a Colt New Service chambered in .455 Elly.

I took that data and began using it in the .45 AR in my S&W 625. Man! What a difference. The 230 grain bullets had been mild, but fairly accurate. These loads, using the .45 Keith LSW from the Lyman Mold, and sized to .454 were stout and very accurate.

A solid hit on a #10 can of peanut butter litterally split the seam, peeled the lid back and sent a geyser of PB into the air. Yes, the cast bullet was a bit soft, like maybe 15 to 1 lead to tin.

Anyhow, that load not only split that can but I punched a hole through an old car that had been abbandoned in that old quarry with another shot.

I also loaded up some LEE .45RNFP's in the .45 AR with similar results.

Long range shooting at 100 yards at clay pigeons and tin cans was more fun, and required the use of kentucky windage at times to hit them.

The best bullet I fired was a Lyman Gas Cheched SWC at 230 grains.

For my money, give me the .45 AR over the .357 any day.

Anyone else have some info on the .45 AR to share?

softpoint

07-25-2009, 10:16 PM

I shoot 45ACP, .45 AR, and .45 Super out of these. Two loads that have always been favorites are the Lyman 200 gr SWC with 6 gr. 231, good everyday accurate load, 13.5 grains of 2400 with Lyman 250 gr SWC, accurate also, pretty hot, work up to this slowly, good for hogs and deer

35remington

07-25-2009, 11:19 PM

The single best tip I can give is for the heavier than standard weight Auto Rim bullets, such as the 250-255 SWC's and RF's.

Casting these weight bullets soft or even of ACWW's gives significantly poorer accuracy in my AR revolvers than hardnesses approximating HTWW's. A hard bullet significantly reduces the skidding present in these revolvers due to the relatively high velocities at which the bullet strikes the forcing cone. The heavy inertia of the 250 grain bullets wants to ride over the rifling rather than turn with it. This is directly opposed to the slower velocity rifling engagement of an autoloader barrel, which doesn't have to "crash" into the end of a separate barrel after jumping through a long chamber throat and barrel/cylinder gap.

A hard bullet increases the grip the shallow rifling has on the bullet, substantially reducing skidding and improving accuracy.

A study of recovered bullets shows the differences quite plainly.

Lighter bullets with less inertia, such as the various 185 grain target type SWC's of good bearing surface, may be shot of softer alloys with good results.

358wcf

07-26-2009, 12:38 AM

I have been shooting my S&W model 25 45AutoRim since the mid-80s. It is an extremely accurate revolver, and has been a constant hunting companion for years. My best hunting shot with it was a Belding Ground Squirrel shot in the neck at 60 paces, with witnesses! A lucky shot, but not outrageous, as this gun is routinely shot at 50yd bullseyes with great success.
It has never had a jacketed round through it, nor a factory load- I standarized years ago on the 200gr RCBS SWC over 6.5gr Unique. A mild load, but, Oh, so accurate! I've recently acquired a Lyman 452423 single cav mold (238gr SWC) to try for a better hunting type load, with a HUGE meplat to transfer every bit of energy to the target. Velocity is not in the cards with this big revolver, but you can be very sure that it will hit whatever target you choose. Big, heavy, strong, with a superb action- it doesn't get much better.
I've no need to over-stress this gun, as I have a 4" S&W 44Special if I feel the need for more power- it, too, is superbly accurate- another story.
Long live the AutoRim. I've set aside a large amount of new brass over the years, expecting it to disappear from the market, but the AutoRim just lives on and on--

358wcf

StrawHat

07-26-2009, 06:35 AM

There have been at least two runs of the 452423 boolit done as group buys. Both shoot well according to all reports.

I have loaded some 255 Lee SWCs in the ACP case for my 25-2 and my 4" N frame but apparently used too soft an alloy. Now, having read the post by 35 Remington, I will stiffen the mix and see how it goes.

Throwback

07-26-2009, 10:00 AM

I have loaded 255 & 265 grains as cast myself and primarily used Accurate 7 and Blue Dot. I also used the 300 grain LFN .452 by Cast Precision I think, with a dose of Accurate 9. Accurate 9 definitely showed a sweet spot in accuracy and extreme spread when I found the right load. I backed off of the heaviest charges tried in the interest of safety and optimal accuracy but only by measuring case head expansion was there any evidence of approaching maximum preassures. At no time did primers or extraction indicate an issue.

The velocity of my maximum load is surprising given the weight of the projectile. I will only share a starting load however. 10.7 grains of Accurate 9 generated 763 fps and a 27 fps extreme spread. I tried lighter loads but they are not advised with this powder as performance was erratic at best. I used a Smith M22 TR with a 4-inch barrel and both AR & ACP cases with a heavy crimp.

softpoint

07-26-2009, 01:03 PM

I have that 238 gr. mold as well. Thats an old design Lyman that was made specifically for .45 AR. Makes a good bullet in the 1911, too if you can get it to feed well. It does have a shorter nose and a larger meplat than the other Lyman plainbase ,which I have as well. The longer bullet is a little more accurate in my guns, though. BTW, I have a .44 S&W Mountain gun too, and my 4" inch 625 weighs the same, according to my Lyman electronic trigger pull scale. The .44 has a thin tapered barrel, but the 625 has a shorter cylinder and bigger holes in it.
I use a mix of wheelweights and linotype , about 20 lbs clip on weights to 1 lb linotype and water drop. I use this same mix and water drop for all my casting except paper patch, where I use pure lead, or as close as I can get.:drinks:

Char-Gar

07-26-2009, 01:49 PM

I noticed that Buffalo Bore ammo is now selling 45 Auto 'Rim ammo with 255 grain FN cast bullets going 1,000 fps.

softpoint

07-26-2009, 01:57 PM

Here are some of the different bullets I use in my 625's,1, 200 gr Lyman in AR case, 6.0 gr. 231,2, 238 gr Lyman ACP case, power pistol powder. 3,250 gr. Lyman, AR case, 13.5 gr 2400. 4, 200 gr . Speer (now obsolete) the "flying ashtray" hollowpoint, 45 Super case, power pistol powder.
The #1 load is my most used load. # 3 is a top hunting, or "woods" load, # 4 over 1200 fps with the speer HP, Hope I never need to find out, but I believe it should have a calming effect on any social situation that gets out of hand. I did bust a coyote at about 30 yards with it, and it did calm him....:mrgreen:
BTW, Elmer Keith used a harder alloy when casting for the Auto Rim than he did for his .44 magnums, (his article in the old RCBS manual)

Bret4207

07-30-2009, 08:38 AM

Lets remember to add the caveat that in older 1917 Colts and S+W's these hotter loads may be too much. I love my Smith '17 and medium loads do fine. I'd also love a modern 45 wheelgun, but the funds are lacking. Still, the 45 AR is a lot of fun and darned interesting to play with.

Char-Gar

07-30-2009, 10:24 AM

Bret's caution about the older Pre-War pistols is well taken. Back in the 60s Skeeter Skelton wrote an article entitled "Poor Man's Magnum" about the Colt 1917 and the 260 grain Keith bullet (454244) over 7.5/Unique and how great that load was.

Sometime later he cracked the cylinder of that pistol with that load. He rebarreled and recylindered the pistol to 44 Special. At one time I owned that pistol for a brief time.

You want to keep bullet weight and pressure to factory standards in those old sixguns.

Today I own;

Colt 1917
Smith and Wesson 1939 Brazilian (3)
SMith and Wesson 25-2 (2)
Smith and Wesson 625
Ruger Blackhawk with a 45 ACP cylinder
USFA SA with a 45 ACP cylinder
Colt Govt Model 45 ACP
Norinco 1911A1 (2) in 45ACP

You might say I like the 45 ACP/AR round. My prefered bullets is good old 452423. The RCBS 230. We have run six cavity Lee custom mold buys in both 452423 and a clone of the RCBS bullet.

I have killed several Whitetail deer and many lesser critters with these pistols and others like them. I see no need to go heavier than 240 grains in these pistols.

240 grain Keith SWC (452423) over 7.5/Unique in either the AR or ACP case will give you and honest 950 fps in a 4" bbl sixgun and 1,050 in a 6 incher. That load is a real thumper.

YOu can run that bullet up to 1,200 with some scary 2400 loads, but I choose not to do so. My old shooting mentor once told me.."If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer.". NO sense trying to turn a 45 AR into a 44 Magnum with redline loads. Get a 44 Mag if you need to do that. They are wonderful pistols also.

I started shooting before this heavy bullet fad got started and have never been bitten by that bug as I know from experience the standard weights to work just fine. We don't have moose and elk in Texas and even if we did, I would use a rifle.

Dale53

07-30-2009, 11:10 AM

Chargar;
I have two 625's (a 625-6 with 5" barrel and a 625-8 Jerry Miculek Special with 4" barrel). These two seem to go with me to the range every time I go. Here's a target I shot yesterday that tends to show why I have such affection for the .45 Auto Rim revolver:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img047.jpg

This was shot standing at 25 yards. It's no big deal to a dedicated bullseye shooter but at my age (74) I am elated! This is not uncommon performance with my 625's. This particular target was shot with a target load (4.5 grs of 5066 behind a MeHec H&G #68 Clone .452" bullet with CCI primers). I use Starline .45 Auto Rim brass mostly, although I have shot a bushel basket of .45 ACP loads using full moon clips (and yes, I use tools to re and de moon the clips). Also, for range use I find the RIMZ polymer clips to work extremely well with just your fingers. Lots of options with the 625's...

My big game hunting is probably behind me (getting to old to drag the deer out of the woods) but I sure wouldn't feel "left out" if I had only the .45 Auto Rim and a good heavy bullet (240-250 grs) load for the purpose.

It's one of the most useful cartridges around. It is extremely easy to get match quality reloads with a variety of bullets and powders. My two revolvers (and those of several friends) all seem to lack "ammo sensitivity" - they just flat seem to work with most any reasonable load. A few months ago, I shot a target at 25 yards (the timed fire target) with two different SWC's and three powder charges with one of my 625's. The target scored 100x100. Now, THAT is versatile!

I certainly would NOT try to "hot rod" a model 1917 revolver but the 625's seem to be up for a 250 gr bullet at 1000 fps with a proper powder without problems. Frankly, a 250 gr .452" bullet at 900-1000 fps is a LOT of gun for all 'round practical use.

Dale53

Char-Gar

08-04-2009, 12:08 PM

Dale.. I have a 5" 625 that I bought new when they first came out in 1989. It just must be the most accurate sixgun I have over shot. When I got it, I called Deacon Deason to have a pair of his Skeeter Bear Hug grips made for it. He had one also and he raved and raved about it, until I started to get antsy about the phone bill. He was having a very good time on my dime.

That same year, I bought a 5" 626 (44 Mag) and it also deliver accuracy way above normal for Smith and Wesson pistols. That must have been some sort of magic year at Springfield.

I am 67 and still shooting, but like you no longer have a desire to rim canyons and drag dead animals. I have a vast storehouse of memories about doing such things and that is enough for me.

I recall back in the late 80s waking up one morning with an inch of snow on top of the tarp I had over my Eddie Bauer goose down bag. I was sleeping in the open bed of my pickup on the Canadian River breaks on the Texas Panhandle. As I crawled out of that bag and got dressed for the morning hunt I had and "ah-haa" moment. This old crap isn't fun any more and I can't believe I ever thought it was! That was the beginning of the end of my hunting. I hung on some more years, but it never had the hold on me it once had.

anachronism

08-04-2009, 12:21 PM

My source of loading data has been the older Speer manuals, under 45 ACP. They show data for 260 gr .452 & some of it's really smokin'.

Char-Gar

08-04-2009, 12:32 PM

"My source of loading data has been the older Speer manuals, under 45 ACP. They show data for 260 gr .452 & some of it's really smokin'. "

Be careful with those old Speer loads. The text from Speer No. 3 on those loads reads..

"The cases used were of the folded head type and reloaders might find it impossible to load as much powder in solid head cases"..Speer No. 3, page 204.

Those max loads in today's cases are way beyond the red line. Speer wised up and stop publishing that data for good reason.

That old Speer data can be useful to study, but is it apples and oranges with todays loading components. Folks need to know that.

Dale53

08-04-2009, 03:09 PM

Charger;
>>>I recall back in the late 80s waking up one morning with an inch of snow on top of the tarp I had over my Eddie Bauer goose down bag. I was sleeping in the open bed of my pickup on the Canadian River breaks on the Texas Panhandle.<<<

I raced motorcyles for five years, then a ten year break for kids and family, then ANOTHER five years, for a total of ten years. During this same time, I did a LOT of back packing. Generally, by myself, but sometimes with friends. Also, was HEAVY into paddling canoes and kayaks (still have three canoes and one Folbot Single kayak). I can remember one winter canoe trip when I woke up (in a three wall Baker's tent) with hoar frost hanging 6" off the trees. It was a glorious paddle that weekend, tho'. I have put more ACTION into my life than any three people i know. For that, and many other things, I am MOST grateful.

I had a wonderful understanding wife (we celebrated out 51st Wedding Anniversary this past June) that helped make all of this possible.

I can't do what I used to do but I sure didn't hang around and WISH when I was young enough to do it. I DID it, just like you. They say that "Everything in its own time.". I believe that but I will have a smile on my face from what I DID do when they plant me. In the meantime, I continue to do what I CAN do. Right now, it is shooting, writing, and photography (see the latest issue of The Single Shot Rifle Journal).

I concur completely with you regarding the old Speer manuals. Speer #8 got me into serious trouble when it was current. I was loading and shooting loads for my Model 19 (6") that was under max in the Speer #8 and thoroughly enjoying them. Under circumstances too complicated to go into here, I learned that my "favorite" load was over 60,000 psi in a pressure barrel!!! You might say my naivete ended at that point.

Here is a picture of one of my most favorite handguns - the 625-6 Model of 1989 in .45 ACP:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QDalesRevolversandPistols-1720.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QDalesRevolversandPistols-1717.jpg

Dale53

Cannoneer

08-04-2009, 04:11 PM

I to am getting on in years, but I still like to go shooting and show off for the younger soldiers that come out to the range. My favorite load is a Lyman 230 grain SWC w/GC over a 6 grain charge of Unique and a Wnchester LP primer. Very accurate out to 100 yards and deadly on varments, (2 and 4 legged varieties). I've shot the Keith style SWC's as well as the Lee RNFP cast boolits for years out of my 1988 S&W 625. Even with it's four inch barrel, if I do my part it will hit where I am aiming.

If I have to get rid of all my other revolvers, This is the one I'll be keeping.

Depreacher

08-04-2009, 11:43 PM

Hey Guys,

Just in case some of you that own a fine old Webley that has been altered to accept .45 auto moon clipped/.45AR ammo please read on. These do not need to be shot with anything more powerful than 250 gr/5.2 gr. unique loads or equivalent thereof. I was using 5.5 gr unique behind a .452 250 cast but was told by a much wiser member to cool even that down a little. I will be shooting 5 gr. unique now for the 250's, or 5.1 for 230 TC's from my new Lee mould. We need to realise these 'ol sisters are 90+ years old.

A few months back, my MK6 and I shamed my 'ol shooting cronie, and his new Kimber .45. Life is made of sweet moments like these. :-P Depreacher

The Virginian

08-19-2011, 10:47 AM

Couple of minor well intended corrections: In the Pet Loads article the parent brass to make .455 Colt/Eley was .45 Colt, cut down and thinned from the front of the rim. I am sure you could do the same thing with .45 Auto Rim. Also, the S&W 1917 made for the Brazilians was the model of 1937, not 1939. I too would caution people not to push the old guns and down load them to .455 Webley velocities with the heavy bullets. Even shooting GI ball spec ammo in them is going to put extra stress on them.

Char-Gar

08-19-2011, 11:34 AM

you are correct it is the Model of 1937 and note I did not use the term Model. 1937 was the year Brazil addopted the pistol, but the first run of 25,000 was not delivered until 1938 and 1939. Mine was one of the last to be deliver in 1939. They were delivered in batches as they were made. These were all new manufacture and addition to the serial numbers are numbered 1-25000 on the backstrap.

After WWII (ordered in 1946 and delivered in 1947), Brazil ordered another 25,000 pistols. These were made up by Smith of left over 1917 parts, some 1939 parts and a few parts made at the time of the order. These pistols have no number on the backstrap and can be found with frames that cover the period from 1917 until 1939 with the different safety types.

I should have been more accurate in my original post back in 2009. I should have said I have a 1939 Brazilian and a 1947 Brazilian.

If you are going to correct a fellow, it is always a good idea to read the original post with great care to determine what he is saying ,to be certain he is indeed saying, what you think he is saying. On a number of times, I have been tempted to make a correction, but always go back and read the post several times and often realize I have misunderstood the original post.

I have no qualms about shooting USGI ball ammo in my Colt 1917 and the aforementioned two Brazilians.

GLL

08-19-2011, 12:21 PM

Dale & Chargar:

I will join you two since I am almost 70 and also shoot a 625-2 from 1988. It’s only diet is 45AutoRim. I use the 454423 bullets from the LEE 6-cavity Group Buy I ran a few years ago. These were a slightly modified design by 45 2.1.

http://www.fototime.com/52F74072195ED6D/orig.jpg

Chargar- Your comment about the Eddie Bauer goose down bag caught my eye. I still use both of mine that I bought about 1969 back when the company still made outstanding outdoor products for expedition use ! I used one last winter near you up above McKittrick Canyon and Guadalupe Peak.

Jerry

Char-Gar

08-19-2011, 12:47 PM

I bought the heaviest Eddie Bauer goose down bag that was made back in 1962. I used it until 1991 when I gave it away, my camping days being over. It was very expensive, even in 1962 dollars but proved to be very cheap in the long run, because of the service it gave.

I feel the same way about binoculars. After having several cheap pair, I bought a pair of Zeiss in 1982. It is the last pair I will ever need.

There are some things that cost more up front, but prove to be cheap decades latter when several lesser products have bitten the dust.

Piedmont

08-19-2011, 02:09 PM

Actually, I believe those 1937 guns are not Model 1937s. They are model 1917s, Brazillian contract. It is just a 1917 that S&W stamped the Brazillian crest on the side of and sent off in large batches to Brazil.

Char-Gar

08-19-2011, 05:02 PM

Catshooter

08-19-2011, 08:44 PM

I have a '17 hybred (to be polite). Adjustable N frame sight, six and a half inch .455 barrel, a 45 ACP/AR cylinder from some other '17. Throats are .455/.456. I load a 454424 from 50/50 sized .457 over HS-6. Out of this long barrel I get right about 850 feet. Starline AR brass.

Don't want to go higher out of respect of the pieces age. The gun loves the load and a 265 grain 45 caliber boolit at that speed is nothing to trifle with. Case heads show zero expansion and of course just fall out of the chambers.

Like Chargr I like the .45 and have a small selection. Don't own any magnums anymore, don't see the need. I can shoot ok, but I can't even begin to utilize the trajectory that magnum speeds provide. I ani't nowhere near Elmer.

I have a Brazilian. It has seen very tough times. You know the Hollywood trick of snapping the cylinder open? Somebody did the reverse, snapping the cylinder shut. A lot. Then when he went to bed each night he'd toss it across the room into the steel 55 gal drum he stored all his Smiths in. Never seen a barrel with a dent on the outside that you can see from the inside. You could open the cylinder without bothering with the thumb latch. *sigh* Some peoples children.

Worked her over for a while and now it's actually safe to shoot. Does about three inches at 15 yards. I still like it. It's a .45, isn't it? How can you not love it?

:)

Cat

Piedmont

08-20-2011, 04:16 AM

Piedmont.. Strickly speaking they are variants of the commercial Pre-War 45 Hand Ejectors (2nd. Model). They were off the shelf commercial pistols with a high polish blue. The true 1917 was a WWI US Goverment contract pistol. The later commercial 45 Hand Ejectors had a different internal safety device. They were just evolutions of the 1917 but are not 1917s.

If you look at the Brazilian crest on the right side of the frame, you will also see the date 1937 in the crest. This is the year the Brizilian navy adopted the pistol. It is for this reason collectors and others refer to it as the 1937 model. The Brazilian designation was Modelo 1937.

The reason I posted as I did is because I checked out Supica and Nahas' Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson from the local library and read much of it. That was a while back but I was particularly interested in this issue because I own one of those Brazillian revolvers. I don't believe I have mislead anyone on the opinion of those two authors. Your opinion may differ but these guys wrote the book.

If any of you out there own the above book maybe you can peek at the pertinent section and let us know if my memory is faulty with regards to this.

BTW I don't think they are just 2nd model hand ejectors because they are of military configuration (note the lanyard loop).

StrawHat

08-20-2011, 07:23 AM

It is good to see this thread revived! Not sure about the bickering going on but the reloading info is nice.

For those of you who haven't seen this, here is an good article about the Lyman 454423, written by a forum member.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

It was this article that got me looking for a mold for my 25-2. I have one of the 6 cavity GB molds from the run honchoed by GLL. SInce I stiffened up the alloy, it has been a much better performer.

excess650

08-20-2011, 10:45 AM

While I have owned a couple of older S&Ws in 45AR/45ACP, the only one I currently have is a 625-3 4". I had Veral Smith cut me a 250WFN for it and it was VERY accurate over 9.5gr Hercules Blue Dot. It shot high with the rear sight all the way down, but that would have been fixable with a taller front sight. My load was worked up with Speer #11 data as a basis. They loaded 9.0gr under a 250gr SWC and pressure was under 17K cup. I started lower and worked up and accuracy really came in as velocity went up.

S&Ws of that time period may well have been some of their better pieces. The most accurate revolver I've ever shot is my 5" 610 10mm. I also have a M16 in 32 mag, and one of the M36 with full lug barrel and adjustable sights. My 2-1/2" M19 of that time period now has a 4" and gets carried more than anything else. There is something about that 4" with round butt that makes it very comfortable in my hands.

Intel6

08-20-2011, 12:53 PM

I have a few 625's I shoot lots of lead out of but I also have a nice 1955 Target that doesn't get much use as I don't want to mess with lead due to it being harder to clean. . As an experiement I recently been making 250 JHP's with my BT Sniper .458" dies. I make them with a 180 gr. .40 bullet in a .40 case and make a 250 JHP. I then run them through a Lee .454" push through sizer and put a cannelure where I want. I have always used a Redding Profile crimp for my revolver loading so I can put a propper roll crimp on them I loaded up some test rounds with Unique and had soime decent results. Still working on the process but so far I am liking it.

Char-Gar

08-20-2011, 03:05 PM

Piedmont... I have both the 1st. and 2nd. Edition of Supica and Nahas Standard Catalog. They do indeed list the Brazilian contract under the Model of 1917. The information they give is brief and incomplete. The purpose of their book was for folk to identify and price Smith and Wesson handguns. It is in no way the definitive word on these handguns.

Strawhat.. I read the article provided in the link and that guy has no idea what he is talking about!

Bret4207

08-20-2011, 06:35 PM

GLL

08-20-2011, 07:56 PM

Bret:

I ran the second LEE Group Buy which was designed by 45 2.1 as a 454423 and drops at 0.454" . The throats on my 25-2s and Model 17 are a little large so it works well for me.
They size down easily for the 625s.

Jerry

Char-Gar

08-20-2011, 09:27 PM

Bret, you had to go and spoil my fun. I was sure somebody would take me on for being so hard on poor old Charles Graff.

I have a very neat 1937 Brazilian that I send back to Smith and Wesson for a factory reblue. I had to do a little conjoling to get them to do it, but I prevailed. It wears a Wonder Sight as well. It is sighted in for a 200 cast SWC going about 850 fps. It also wears a great set of Herretts grips. It is almost too pretty to shoot, but shoot it I do.

Piedmont

08-21-2011, 01:52 AM

Chargar, it was that article, YOUR article, that got me looking for a 452423. Every one I've ahd has been undersized with one only just making .450! I do have one the the first GB 452423 clones, but as of yet I haven't cast a single boolit from it I don't believe. That darn BD45 shoots sooooo good I haven't gotten around ton trying anything else. Ever since I put the Wondersight on the Smiff '17 I've been a happy camper. What a great field gun!

It was Chargar's article that got me to buy that mould, too. Mine was terribly undersized like yours Bret. Erik Ohlen fixed me up opening the front band to .452 and the rear bands to .454" which is perfect for crimping in the groove with my older revolvers. It turned a deal into an expensive mould, though.

Bret4207

08-21-2011, 08:52 AM

Hmmmm. Now you have me thinking about that single cav 423 I have and a HP! Maybe some day.

Char-Gar

08-21-2011, 12:13 PM

I am lucky. I have an old Ideal SC and a Lyman 4C in 452423 and both cast .454 or better. I had Buckshoot hollow point my SC Ideal.

Dale53

12-03-2011, 12:30 PM

This is one of my favorite threads. Apparently, it just keeps on "truckin' "...

I might as well add a picture or two. Here are my loads with the clone of the Lyman 454424 by NOE (I have a five cavity mould from NOE that produces a FINE 250 gr Keith with WW's+2% tin):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

I run these with 7.0 grs of Unique with a Fed 150 primer (a not necessarily recommended load) that I believe are well within safety limits in a modern (after 1950 Model 25 Smith, a 625 Smith, and my Ruger SS Bisley .45 ACP Convertible). Understand, the Ruger will not allow you to run Auto Rim cases but .45 Cowboy Special cases work well in my Ruger and allow a good roll crimp). These loads chronograph at just over 900 fps. This is about as good a field load as a feller or gal needs.

It is seldom mentioned, but the .45 Shot capsules from Speer work well in these handguns. I use shot capsules in nearly all of my field revolvers (.38/.357, .44 Special/Magnum, .45 Auto Rim, and .45 Colt. See the Speer reloading manual for loads. I have often hiked and hunted in serious snake country and the shot capsules do a real job when loaded with #12 shot. They will positively shred a snake's head at close range (the only distance that you need to worry about a snake).

Dale53

Pepe Ray

12-03-2011, 02:59 PM

Dale53
I share your enthusiasm for the 45AR and M25's and all that they generate.
Pepe Ray

Catshooter

12-09-2011, 08:32 PM

Char-Gar is correct in his description of just what a '37 is. Just 'cause something's wrote up in a big pretty book don't make it true.

I agree Dale, a 250 (.45!) at 900 fps is all I need in the field too. If I could shoot like Elmer then the 1300 to 1500 fps loads and their flatter trajectories would be helpful. But I can't, never could.

I pulled a bullet from an '50s vintage AR Remington round and was interested to see that it measured .448! No wonder those puppies had a reputation for leading.

I think the AR is a very over looked and under rated round.

Cat

Dale53

12-09-2011, 08:49 PM

Even at my advanced age, I am still a good shot. However, I have a self imposed range limit (depending on the cartridge and game) and don't exceed that. I have never been so "hungry" that I have had to go outside MY range.

YOUR range is easily obtained. Just get some pie plates and place them at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. Then, start shooting. The furthest range you can make 100% hits from a field position, is YOUR max range. Then just exercise a bit of self discipline and you are "good to go" (as they say...).

My hunting buddy and I would, in the weeks leading up to hunting season, shoot as many as 2500 full house rounds of .44 Magnum (our chosen deer load at the time) to get in shooting shape for hunting season. It worked, too.

FWIW
Dale53

StrawHat

12-10-2011, 07:17 AM

Dale,

I use a similar method to your pie plates. After I am sighted in on paper with the load I prefer, I quit shooting paper and just walk the property. Targets of opportunity can be found if one looks. A five gallon pail I have left out is a good target from a variety of distances. And stumps and rocks are usually around. Occassionaly, a groundhog will be present. This way, I have to figure range and holdover. And I try to quickly assume a shootable position. Sitting has gotten to be a bit much for me, (I am 2 belt notches larger than when I was competing) so kneeling and braced offhand get a lot of use. But I am losing weight and sitting will get used more often. Weather also plays into it. Ohio can bring cold and wet conditions and then I prefer to be on my feet, not on my knees or butt!

I have used your pie plate method also but substituted paper plates. Sometimes, I leave them out so they weather a bit and are different shapes and colors when I walk up on them.

Dale53

12-10-2011, 11:56 AM

Strawhat;
Your program not only sounds effective, it sounds like FUN! The one advantage of paper targets is that they record your shots. Sometimes, when we are shooting random targets we have a tendency to only remember the hits. By having strict discipline to limit your ranges to only those where you are 100%, you tend to strive harder. THAT is GOOD![smilie=w:

fwiw
Dale53

GLL

12-10-2011, 03:45 PM

Although lighter than the 454423 the NOE 45-210 BD is another nice bullet for .45AutoRim !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/54CCEF5FE79FF90/orig.jpg

Dale53

12-10-2011, 05:44 PM

I just LOVE this bullet porn...:mrgreen:

Here is another VERY useful bullet in both the .45 Auto Rim AND the .45 ACP (in both the 1911 and revolver platforms);

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3332.jpg

It is no great trick to drive these safely to 1000 fps in a modern revolver. That can also be safely done in .45 ACP cases for the 1911 autos. This bullet is the Mihec 200 gr H.P...

Brain Peace, in his article in Handloader on the .45 Auto Rim has a number of loads using the RCBS 45-270-SSA bullet. I have that bullet in several Mihec moulds including a hollow point Cramer style mould from MIhec. I have not used that bullet in the 625's, as yet but it is a definite possibility. Here it is in solid point form:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/LoadedRounds45-270-SAA-3732.jpg

Dale53

Shooter6br

12-10-2011, 07:33 PM

Throats are .453 Nice pistol Shoot mainly whatever feeds in my Kimber Target II. This is Milhec 200g HP / 210 fp. Nice modest Unique charge 5.8 g or so

20nickels

12-15-2011, 03:03 PM

Great thread,
I used a Meister 250gr in my 4" 625 coupla yrs back over 6.5gr of Unique before I chickened out. I don't own a chrony. I used mixed brass and moonclips, nothing special but it knocked the snot out of steel targets and bowling pins were very impressed as well, was controllable and burned clean. Would still take down a Texas star in under 3 sec., resetting them was no fun though because it knocked them back twice as far away than standard loads. :)
Pin shooters have been using this load for yrs. If you need more get a .41 or .44.

Wayne Dobbs

12-16-2011, 01:45 PM

I've used 6.5 Unique with a 255 SWC in my 625 for some time as a Texas deer load. I've killed several with it and it works great. No recovered bullets of course, as it just knocks a big hole all the way through, no matter what the angle.

brotherdarrell

12-17-2011, 06:48 PM

For revolvers can you use the same load data for 45 acp that is used in the 45 ar? I have a Ruger bh convertible and am always looking for more data to compare.

brotherdarrell

20nickels

12-22-2011, 05:43 PM

For revolvers can you use the same load data for 45 acp that is used in the 45 ar? I have a Ruger bh convertible and am always looking for more data to compare.

brotherdarrell

Yes, I do anyway. It's a fully supported chamber though others may nitpick. They say to stay away from balloon head AR brass whatever that is.

Dale53

12-22-2011, 05:56 PM

.45 ACP brass and modern .45 Auto Rim brass have the essentially the same capacity. Old brass in .44 Special and .45 Colt had balloon head brass (the primer pocket, when viewed from the case mouth appears to have been pushed in from the head - as in, "it balloons from the base"). While I have examples of balloon head brass in both .44 Special and .45 Colt I, personally, have not seen it in Auto Rim cases. However, if you follow the time lines, it is almost certain that they made balloon head brass in Auto Rim.

The important thing to remember, is that balloon head brass is much thinner at the head and should NEVER be used for heavy loads (it is over fifty years old, for one thing). Some say it should never again be used for anything. I have been using mine for target loads and will until it cracks at the mouth then I'll discard it.

FWIW
Dale53

GLL

12-22-2011, 06:29 PM

Paul5388 summarizes the long haul it took to get a Group Buy copy made of the Ohaus #45255K for .45AutoRim. He initially had NEI make a copy of Chunkum/Stuffit’s original (I got one) and eventually a 45 2.1 designed Lee 6-cavity Group Buy was produced by Dutch4122. The links have the history.

Jerry

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35293&highlight=Ohaus+Auto+Rim

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35855&highlight=Ohaus+Auto+Rim

http://www.fototime.com/1453C63E0A51E0D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/C8B59A2D7049E8C/standard.jpg

Dale53

12-22-2011, 07:37 PM

Jerry;
How does that Ohaus bullet shoot in your 625 compared to your Group Buy 454423 bullet? Have you tried it at 75 or 100 yards?

Dale53

brotherdarrell

12-23-2011, 12:55 PM

appreciate the responses gentlemen

brotherdarrell

Catshooter

12-23-2011, 09:02 PM

I too have some ballon head Auto Rim, nickeled. Haven't used yet, but I would if needed.

And watch that 'over 50 years old' stuff if you'd be so kind. :)

Cat

ramsay

12-31-2011, 08:23 PM

Hi all:

I load .45 auto rim for use in my Webley MKVi... I use a Lyman #454190 bullet cast from linotype and sized .454.. I lube with Jakes lube and load over 5 gr Unique.

I also have a hollow point mold I fashioned from a one cavity 454190 that I use..

Webley shoots well with this load and shoots right on the sights..

Ramsay

motorcycle_dan

01-01-2012, 06:38 PM

I like the .45 Auto Rim with a light bullet. Quality Cast Bullets (local caster here in OH) makes a flat base 160gr SWC. Seat almost flush with the shoulder, 5.0gr of Hodgdon Tite Group. Runs about 825fps. Perfect bullseye load. (Earned my Harry Reeves t-shirt with it last summer)
The gun is a mutant. Started life as a 629-5, now wears a 5" .45 barrel and a .45ACP unfluted cylinder. I shoot it in a local 50ft bullseye league and regularly break 560/600.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3255

captaint

02-29-2012, 02:56 PM

Guys, I'm enjoying every inch of this thread. I have a beautiful old 1955 Target that has big throats(of course) and only shoots .452 boolits OK. I have gotten a clone of the 454424 from Mihec and that gun and mold will be one of this season's projects. Can't wait to get it runnin good... Think I'll start with softer .454's.. enjoy Mike

Dale53

02-29-2012, 03:51 PM

captaint;
I have not had the "pleasure" of a large throated .45 Auto Rim since my salad days. We didn't know much about the problem in the fifties. My father had a 1950 Target and then when they first hit the market, he brought home a 1955 Target (heavy barreled version of the 1950 Target).

One of the things you'll have to watch is the loading dies. You must make certain that the dies can and will handle the large diameter bullets. This may or may not be a problem. You may have to watch the diameter of the expander rod or drop tube. If the bullets are soft, and the expander is for smaller diameter bullets, the case, after expansion, could possibly squeeze the bullet diameter smaller than you desire leading the gas cutting and leading, etc. Of course, it may be perfectly ok.

The Cowboy Dies for the .45 Colt are often sized for larger bullets but that may or may not be true for the .45 ACP dies. Sometimes, a simple phone call to the die manufacturer can turn up solutions.

As an example, I wanted to use a roll crimp with my Lee Factory Crimp die in .45 ACP. These are normally set up for a taper crimp. I called and asked if I could use a .45 Colt roll crimp insert (these dies crimp with a removable insert). The Lee technician said yes, but I would also need an adapter (which they would be willing to furnish). As I remember, it was only about $7.50 for both parts and they work perfectly.

Bottom line, if you run into bullet size problems with your die set, don't hesitate to talk to the manufacturer. Phone calls are cheap and can save a bunch of aggravation. In the past, RCBS has also offered solutions to problems with reloading. I have heard good things about Hornady, also, in this area.

Dale53

45 2.1

02-29-2012, 06:42 PM

Paul5388 summarizes the long haul it took to get a Group Buy copy made of the Ohaus #45255K for .45AutoRim. He initially had NEI make a copy of Chunkum/Stuffit’s original (I got one) and eventually a 45 2.1 designed Lee 6-cavity Group Buy was produced by Dutch4122. The links have the history.

Jerry

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35293&highlight=Ohaus+Auto+Rim

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35855&highlight=Ohaus+Auto+Rim
http://www.fototime.com/C8B59A2D7049E8C/standard.jpg

This boolit has just been reborn........... Here is the thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1613460#post1613460

captaint

03-01-2012, 11:37 AM

Dale53 - thank you for the info. Doubtless, I would have had some problems, and I did not consider the 45ACP die issue, though I should have. Looks like I'm going to have to contact RCBS before Spring arrives and speak with them. Think I'll also pour up a few of those boolits and see how they work in the 45ACP dies. Thanks again, Mike

flint45

03-01-2012, 02:46 PM

My favorite cartridge is the .45 Auto Rim and my S&W625 5"1989 is my favorite handgun i own.One of my best loads is a RCBS .45-255-KT. with ww alloy goes 260 grains and with 6.5 grs. AA #5 is super accurate.It also loves Lee's 200 gr. micro grove swc. and4.5 grs. red dot or 6.0 to 8.0 grs. AA#5 plus many others to. .45 Auto Rim is a great cartridge with light or heavy boolits.

katch1

03-02-2012, 12:29 AM

my 625 is one of those guns i will not sell, had one in late 80's and sold it, will not happen again.
current one is a michulik sp? everybody that picks it up can shoot it well, my daughter especially. cast load is a 255gr rnfp commercially cast slug over 10. gr blue dot, not for older guns for sure, 955fps ave out of 4" bbl
jacketed load is ?grs of red dot under a 185grjhp nosler, chrnonoed @ 975fps if i remember,very controllable in the revolver.
with all the auto brass i have accumulated over the years i should look into moon clips and a re-de-mooner
4.5gr bullseye and a 225tc is a great paper punching load, mid 700's in fps and great accuracy

Dale53

03-02-2012, 02:45 AM

katch1;
An alternative to the steel full moon clips which require tools, are the RIMZ polymer full moon clips. They have two kinds - a flexible polymer and a semi rigid hydro carbon reinforced model (the #25). I have some of each. You can easily load these with your fingers. Further, they have long life (I have several thousand rounds with the polymer clips and have yet to lose one. They are not expensive, either.

http://www.ezmoonclip.com/

Dale53

ddixie884

04-25-2012, 05:14 AM

Which of the Rimz clips fit the 1917s and do the same ones fit the 1950 and 1955?

Dale53

04-25-2012, 11:44 AM

I was confused, myself, after visiting their web site. Give them a call. They were very helpful to me on the phone.

http://www.ezmoonclip.com/

937-919-5915

I have shot thousands of rounds with their flexible clips but just recently got their new, much improved Carbon/polymer #25 clips. They are my new "standard"...

Dale53

Michael J. Spangler

05-08-2013, 09:58 PM

Time to revive and old thread.
The more I shoot the auto rim and read about it the more I like it. This thread is a great reference.

Have any of you played with universal clays in this cartridge?

I loaded some seriously stout loads with an approximately 280 grain bullet over a whole lot of universal.
I really need to get a chrono to test these.

Great thread guys

35remington

05-09-2013, 02:46 PM

Define "a whole lot."

338RemUltraMag

05-09-2013, 03:19 PM

Define "a whole lot."

Dip case, level with knife, seat boolit? LOL

Michael J. Spangler

05-09-2013, 07:07 PM

Basically

I need to check my notes but it was around 6 grains.

From the Brian Pierce article on the 45 auto rim.

It was supposed to be around 1000 fps

Dutch4122

05-09-2013, 08:43 PM

Ah, 6 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays.

That is my favorite load using the 45-270-Ohaus (Lee Group Buy) in my 625-6 Mountain Gun.

IIRC Pierce got something like over 900 fps with this load. I have not bothered to chrono mine. The gun absolutely stacks 'em at 25 yards so I am happy.

Michael J. Spangler

05-09-2013, 09:06 PM

That was the bullet Dutch!
I weighed them and they were about 280 grains lubed. Man that's an awesome load.
I think a 240 or so grain bullet would rock nice and fast.

35remington

05-11-2013, 07:49 PM

As mentioned, 1000 fps is optimistic for Universal with a deeply seated 280. That would be +P+. Much more than 900 fps shouldn't be exceeded with such a heavy bullet, so best to work up with the chronograph starting a 5.5 grains.

johnfl

05-11-2013, 11:43 PM

Pierce's article on that bullet are what caused me to buy a 625 as well... I have pondered getting some .45 Super brass or maybe getting the cylinder chambered to .460 Rowland... I have yet to find load data on the Roland with bullets even close to the 280 grains that my slugs drop out at...

Dutchman

10-26-2013, 02:19 PM

Shooter6br

10-26-2013, 04:09 PM

Also wanted a 45 ACP revolver. Got one85463

50target

10-29-2013, 09:30 PM

I have used the 45 AR in several 45 revolvers, 50 Target, Pre 1955, 1917 S&W and most recently a 1917 Colt that was completely rebuilt with NOS parts and wears an S&W rear adjustable and a Micro Patridge front. In developing a load, I had used previously the Lyman 452460 (very accurate bullet), Lyman #452374 and the Lee 190 swctl and had good luck with all. I picked up some 452423 off this forum that weighed at 240 gr. Using PB (an old Ken Waters recipe) and Unique, I finally settled on 6.3 gr. Unique for a consistent 840 fps, excellent accuracy, no leading, no pressure, and just a good load. Not going topush it any faster, figure a 240 gr at 840 fps will take care of most things. Will try other powders and see if I can tweak the accuracy some more. Great boolit.

Old Dawg

11-23-2013, 02:02 PM

I currently use a Taurus 'Stellar Tracker' in 45 ACP. I too dislike the 'clips'. Get some .45 Special brass. It comes with a thinner rim, same thickness as other common revolver rims. Works great.

Chainsaw76

05-29-2018, 06:54 PM

I have a Chilean Navy 1917 with a badly pitted bore that I can't shoot cast boolits thru. I think they shot up the last of their ammo then turned the revolvers in uncleaned. The pistol is mechanically sound and finish was very worn but surfaces are smooth.

It shoots WWB very well though and I really like the old gun.

Jim

Nueces

05-29-2018, 08:07 PM

Jim, it will take a while (months, likely), but ebay is a good source for older barrels. I would not mention it, but I already found most of what I want there!

Most recently, I got a nice Smith 455 barrel to replace the demilled one on a good condition 1917. The 17 has the standard large throats of a wartime 45, so the 455 barrel is actually an upgrade.

And, thanks for resurrecting this old thread. I read every word again and thoroughly enjoyed it.

LAGS

05-29-2018, 09:35 PM

Interesting information.
I recently picked up a S&W 25-2 that someone had shortened the barrel to 2 3/4"
It was done professionally, and is a joy to shoot.
It looks like a Detective Special on Steroids with the Pachmyer wood and rubber grips on the Round butt frame.
I am playing with a 255 Lee RF slug , sized to .455 and powdercoated.
I haven't had much chance to play with different loads yet, but I am in the process of playing with different rear sight blades to get it to print on paper center of target at 25 yards with the rear sight almost all the way down.
That way I have maximum elevation for shooting at 50 to 100 yards.
So far the pistol shows promise shooting at those distances with ammo loaded with 45AR cases and standard .452 sized Boolits.
But the cylinder measures .455 at the front, so the extra width can only help.
You guys have any Powder or Load preferences for the boolit I currently have ?

Michael J. Spangler

05-29-2018, 09:55 PM

Shoot me a pm with your email and I can send you the handloader articled

Dale53

05-30-2018, 12:41 AM

I have been a fan of the .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim revolver for my entire adult life. I recently gifted my youngest son my 625-6 Model of 1989 with 5" barrel. It is a dandy and he shoots it quite well. I shoot my 625-8 JM Special quite often and rather well for a "Certified Old Fart". It is one of my all time favorite revolvers.

I would like to caution owners of the early 1917 revolvers to not load them heavy. Skeeter Skelton or a friend split a cylinder on a 1917 with heavy bullets. On the older revolvers made before 1950 or so, I would limit the max loads in those older revolvers to no more that a cast 230 gr bullet ahead of 5.0 grs of Bullseye. That is a full load and in cast bullets will often get a good bit more velocity than factory hardball.

My favorite load is a #68 H&G (200 gr. cast SWC) ahead of 4.0 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent. This load shoots well under an inch at 25 yards off a rest, is quite pleasant to shoot and works extremely well on small game as well as at the range. You can safely shoot this bullet to near 1000 fps with out straining the older guns if necessary for self defense.

These old guns deserve to be used with descretion but I, too, would shoot them regularly, if I still owned one. My 625-8 gets a regular workout, that's for sure.

FWIW
Dale53

RJM52

05-31-2018, 09:04 PM

Yes, this is timely....

Have had several 25/625s over the years..25-2, 625-7 PC, 1917, Brazilian and several 625 Mountain Guns... At this point I have a very clean 1917, a 652-7 PC and a Taurus Tracker 4" stainless.

Had a lot of good loads in the past mainly for "J" bullets...the 200 grain "Flying Ashtray" would run 1170 fps and the 225 JHP 1130 fps...that with the now discontinued SR-4756 powder...a shame we lost that one.

Just recently finished a project developing loads for some 1911s in .45 Super. According to one of the techs at Buffalo Bore they have a lot of customers who shoot .45 Super from modern S&W revolvers. He sated he has a 625 that he also shoots them in...

As I have lots of AR brass not sure if I am going to crank up the power as much as I used to. Have one of the wonderful Lyman/Keith 245 grain molds that I am looking forward to using in the AR brass....

Bob

Char-Gar

05-31-2018, 11:09 PM

re: Brazilian Modelo 1937 barrel patent dates.

I've not seen this addressed in this thread, that is the barrel patent dates of the U.S. Model 1917 and the Modelo 1937 Brazilian .45.

My copy of Jinks History of S&W, page 327:

.45 U.S. Service Model of 1917 Dec.17, 1901, Feb.6, 1906, Sept.14, 1909

My Brazilian s/n is 195,xxx. The barrel patent dates: Feb.6, 06, Sept.14, 09, Dec.29, 14.

For .44 Hand Ejector Third Model: Sept.14, 1909. Late issues- Feb.6, 1906, Sept.14, 1909, Dec.29, 1914

http://images19.fotki.com/v677/photos/4/28344/9895637/photo1-vi.jpg

http://images9.fotki.com/v174/photos/4/28344/9895637/photo-vi.jpg

There were two contracts between the Brazilian Navy and Smith and Wesson. The first was in 1937, but it was 1939 before the pistols were delivered. This contract was for 25,000 pistols and they were numbered at the factory on the backstrap. There handguns were made of all new parts and the barrels bore later pts. markings.

The second contract was shortly after WWII and also was for 25,000 handguns. These were not numbered on the backstrap and made from left over 1917 parts and some new parts. I have one of these 2nd. contract handguns and the frame and barrel are 1917 left overs and the others parts are newer. They cylinder and crane appear to be the same as the 1st. contract.

Here is a pic of my 2nd contract pistol. I conned S&W into doing a factory reblue about 20 years ago.

sghart3578

05-31-2018, 11:19 PM

I love my Brazilian. I stick with the standard 230 gr RN over 5.0 gr of Bullseye.

That old gun is super accurate.

I just have to remember to screw the ejector rod back in occasionally. Since it was built before S&W used left handed threads the rod backs out and has locked the cylinder once or twice.

I have never gotten around to Locktiting it though I should. It has some end shake and needs shimming anyways.

Steve in N CA

fivegunner

06-13-2018, 05:37 PM

I love this thread , Char-Gar and Dale , I wish I could meet you in person and do a little shooting together and have long gun conversations over coffee. I have learned a lot from your post here at( cast boolits) I have 3 .45 auto rim revolvers all S&W`s the oldest one is from the early 80`s its a 1955 -2 the other two are 625`s a 4inch and a 5inch I have been shooting 255gr swc with 6 gr of Unique . do you think I should back down the load a bit? I have not chronograph the load yet . so don`t know the speed they shoot well . I just wanted your thoughts on this. Best regards Frank:D

Dale53

06-13-2018, 11:12 PM

Fivegunner;
Thanks for the kind words. Birds of a feather, I suspect :D.
I have used 7.0 grs. Of Unique behind a NOE clone of the Lyman 454424, so your load of 6.0 grs. Of Unique behind the Lee bullet should be safe. It sounds like it is shooting well for you, too.

These days you will find me at the range with my favorite range load of 4.0 grs. Of Bullseye or Titegroup behind the Mihec clone of the H&G #68 (200 gr. SWC). That load has also done excellent work for me on small game.

FWIW,
Dale53

Outpost75

06-13-2018, 11:17 PM

As FYI in my M1917 and shaved Webley I have wonderful results with Accurate 45-240H1 with 3.5 grains of Bullseye, 600 fps. I use the same bullet and load in the .455

ddixie884

03-30-2021, 01:00 PM

Zombie thread for the pandemic.

ddixie884

07-13-2021, 07:47 PM

Michael J. Spangler

07-13-2021, 09:28 PM

There has been group buys in the past.

I would be up for a group buy if someone got one running. My buddy just got and old Ohaus 270 and it’s a beautiful bullet.

Michael J. Spangler

07-13-2021, 09:31 PM

Looks like Miha offers one from time to time.
Maybe we need to do a group buy.

I would be down with a really big penta pin and a massive hollow point to facilitate opening at the AR speeds.

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-45-270-ohaus-hp/

ddixie884

07-14-2021, 01:10 AM

I'm not looking for a mold as I think I have two. I am not set up to cast at the moment and I'd like to buy a couple of hundred bullets...........

RJM52

07-14-2021, 03:53 PM

Happened to be shooting my two, a 1917 and a 657-7 PC, a few weeks ago.

Loads for the 1917 were some 225 grain LRN but don't remember the charge right off...

The PC gun got some 240 Keith bullets and you knew when the round went off...

Bob

RJM52

07-14-2021, 03:54 PM

nockhunter

04-08-2022, 08:34 PM

Cool write up on a S&W 625 w/45ar brass.

https://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/18692/mountain-lion-45-auto-rim

Mike

StrawHat

07-14-2023, 12:16 PM

No reason not to bring this one back to the top.

My latest ACP revolver,

315948

It started as a butchered Model 25-2 with a 3.5” barrel. It came with the 4.25” barrel you see in the image. I had Andy Horvath spin out the short barrel and install the longer one. He did a few other things. It shoots well with my SAECO 453 boolit and the 453423 boolit, both over hard ball doses of powder.

Kevin

TXTad

07-21-2023, 10:28 AM

StrawHat

07-21-2023, 03:08 PM

That's gorgeous!

Interesting barrel it's wearing now. I like the looks of the whole package.

Thank you.

The current barrel is a standard Model 1955 barrel cut to 4 1/4”. The ramp was removed from the cut off and returned to the shortened barrel. When I got it, there was a Patridge sight in place. I added the McGivern gold bead to aid visibility. The rounded grip frame is also helpful.

I just went to add a link to the thread on this revolver and realized I never did one on this forum! My apologies.

It uses the same two loads all my other A P revolvers use, 5 grains of Bullseye under the SAECO 453 or the Lyman 452423. Both hit to point of aim and that SAECO full wadcutter hits like a freight train!

Kevin

TXTad

07-21-2023, 03:17 PM

...
I just went to add a link to the thread on this revolver and realized I never did one on this forum! My apologies.
...

Does that mean that there is such a thread somewhere? I'd like to see more pictures of this revolver.

challenger_i

07-21-2023, 04:52 PM

Not a heavy bullet, but it is 45 AR...

Sierra manual shows an Auto Rim load for 185gr Winchester JHP (I hope this crosses over to the XTP) over Unique at 1050-1100fps. Doesn't show pressures, and there is no warning/suggestion/admonition to not use the load in an M1917 New Service revolver.
It is not my intention to use this load for punching paper, just the occasional critter.

Thoughts? Hints? Suggestions?

RJM52

07-21-2023, 09:39 PM

Don't have my load data here right now but do recall a load I had for the S&W 25-2 with the Sierra 185 bullet that was going in the 1200 fps area... Pretty sure it was with IMR4756...

challenger_i

07-21-2023, 10:28 PM

Nothing that fast in my Sierra manual, and it is new enough it doesn't list 4756. Bet your load is a real thumper!

murf205

07-28-2023, 06:01 PM

316412 This is the boolit of choice in my 625-3 with AA#5 powder. It is 253 grs from Accurate mold 45-253M and it's super accurate.Is it a heavy boolit? In an AR it is about as heavy as I would want and the advice about not driving it too hard in 1917 guns is spot on. The fact that this thread has more lives than a Halloween cat is a testament to just how good a round the AR is.

StrawHat

07-29-2023, 08:30 AM

This is the boolit of choice in my 625-3 with AA#5 powder. It is 253 grs from Accurate mold 45-253M and it's super accurate.Is it a heavy boolit? In an AR it is about as heavy as I would want and the advice about not driving it too hard in 1917 guns is spot on. The fact that this thread has more lives than a Halloween cat is a testament to just how good a round the AR is.

Great looking boolit, nice job of casting.

The AR and ACP revolvers are the ultimate in development of the revolver. There may be more powerful, higher capacity, etc but these combine the right amount of power, portability and function. A 4” is my edc.

“…Is it a heavy bullet?…”. I feel the answer depends on how fast you want to push it. You can easily load a 270 or even 300 grain boolit as long as you can live with 600-700 fps. If you want faster, you need to load lighter boolits.

Kevin

Rodfac

08-02-2023, 07:23 PM

This is a fine OLD thread wrapping itself around a fine OLD cartridge. While I'm not a fan of 'heavy for caliber' or in this instance, for the relatively small case, I find 35Remington's last line in his post from July of 2009 mirrors my experience: "Lighter bullets with less inertia, such as the various 185 grain target type SWC's of good bearing surface, may be shot of softer alloys with good results."...My choice is the H&G #68 at 200 gr and will add that a 200 gr LSWC at 850 fps or more is no slouch as a defensive round and is superbly accurate in my Smith Model of 1955. Best regards, Rod

beltfed

08-03-2023, 10:29 PM

Did anyone else see a late '60s/early '70s Guns and Ammo magazine article
Titled " the 45 ARM , as in 45 Auto Rim Magnum?
I had dabbled in such loads back then with my Model of 1955 S&W.
I recently revisited my 1970s handloading logbook and am now again working with the basis of that Article in G&A.
Will share something on this probably next week.
beltfed/arnie

Rapier

08-04-2023, 08:15 AM

I use the Lyman 45 Auo Rim plain base bullet sized to grove which shows as a 236grain in the old Lyman cast bullet manual but actually casts at 252 grains over AA-452 or WST in my six inch 25-2 and in my 45 ACP custom long slide for pin matches..

tejano

08-04-2023, 05:31 PM

Since this thread is ancient, the data below may be a repeat. I came across on old Handloader’s Digest while looking for something else. Took a pic.
316641

StrawHat

08-04-2023, 08:04 PM

Since this thread is ancient, the data below may be a repeat. I came across on old Handloader’s Digest while looking for something else. Took a pic.

Interesting that they consider the Model 25-2 and the Model 625 to be different strengths. You can use the 45 Super in both.

Likewise find some 45 Super recipes with a heavier bullet and give them a try in you Model marked (in the yoke cut) revolver.

Kevin

StrawHat

08-24-2023, 06:14 AM

TXTad

08-24-2023, 10:31 AM

Interesting that they consider the Model 25-2 and the Model 625 to be different strengths. You can use the 45 Super in both.

Likewise find some 45 Super recipes with a heavier bullet and give them a try in you Model marked (in the yoke cut) revolver.

Kevin

That is interesting. I'm guessing they're considering the 1955 revolvers just a little softer than those 625s that arrived starting in the 80s?

I don't know how accurate that is, but that's all I can think.

glaciers

08-24-2023, 10:12 PM

That Is interesting, I was assuming that the strength would be the same. Be nice to know just to know.
I started with the 625 loadings using a NOE 452-304-RF and bullseye in auto cases. Got up to 715 fps with bullseye when life interrupted, making the project on hold. But I looked this thread up as I’m hoping to get back to it in the next couple of days. One thing is I have been using a COL of 1.383 which is I believe one tenth longer then standard of 1.280. So the extra room really isn’t there making the volume about the same as the Lee 255 grain.
I’m thinking that moving to a slower powder might be the way to go. I also just picked up a 454-292 NOE which might be a better fit.
317346
317347

glaciers

08-24-2023, 10:21 PM

I also have a model 1950 which will more then likely be using a225 to 255 grain bullet which will probably shoot to the sights a lot better. I have molds from 160 to the 304 so lot of options.
I bought a used 625 5” in 1990 and sold it a couple years later to help finance another project which I’m sure has gone down the road. But ran into a 625 model 1989 4” and grabbed it. Every since I sold the 5” I have been looking for another but, money and a used 625 never seemed to happen at the same time. This one has found a home.

glaciers

08-24-2023, 10:26 PM