Annealing and accuracy

[abunaitoo]

I noticed something this weekend.
A week before I loaded 60 rounds with three different loads.
I shot 20, 20, and 14. I split one shell, so I knew I needed to anneal the cases.
I annealed the 53 shells and unloaded the remaining 6, but didn't anneal them.
All neck sized only.
Loaded three different loads with the 59 shells.
The 40 that were annealed shot fine and consistant.
When I shot the last load of 19, I noticed that the un-annealed shells were not as accurate as the annealed cased.
I wouldn't have thought it would make as much of a differnce as it did.

Wondering if anyone had done any testing on this.

[sheepdog]

Makes sense, the necks would have a softer, better seal on the boolit and a more even smooth release.

[runfiverun]

some guys anneal then run through their neck sizer twice to put a bit of work hardening back into them.
if the necks are hard they will have inconsistent/almost nonexistent grip on your boolit.

[leadman]

I read where Mike Ventrino anneals his cases every? time. He has a machine he puts them in.

Could be why the accuracy of my 40-65 Roller has fallen off when I use brass that is probably 6 years old and been fired many, many times?

[cajun shooter]

If you do any reading on the BPCR forums you will see this subject many times. We just had one on this forum in the BPCR section. The top shooters anneal brass each time, period. I follow suit with the thought that if it helps them then it will help me. You have much more even neck tension.

[JSH]

"Loaded three different loads with the 59 shells.
The 40 that were annealed shot fine and consistant.
When I shot the last load of 19, I noticed that the un-annealed shells were not as accurate as the annealed cased."

Uh, do you think it may be the load? What case/caliber are you playing with.
As far as annealling goes. I anneal a lot more than I did in past years. About 90% of my shooting involves bottle necked cases. Some of or metal gurus need to step in and explain too me why every time. Seems a bit excessive to me? Every third would seem to be a fair amount. Was Mike shooting one load/bullet combo in several different rifles. That would make some sense to me if FL sizing of a straight walled case.
Some like to make annealing way more complicated than it needs to be. I have gotten bored in the winter and take some good clean range brass and start necking it up or down just to see what can be done. I have necked 357 brass down to 256WM in on step, though it does do better in two. That one always gets annealled before going down. You just have to keep an eye on where you want the metal to move, so the harder metal below will support it. Have also taken the 357 down to 221fireball easily enough. A lot of that goes more by feel of the press and what is going on in the die. Easier to show a person than try to explain.
I used to stand my caes up in a pan of water to anneal. I now just get a 5 gallon bucket of water and get the torch out and go. Turn them between your fingers and drop. I am convinced you will let go of them wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before you ruin any brass.
jeff

[Larry Gibson]

The harder, non-annealed necks also size down PB cast bullets where the softer annealed necks expand some. With GC cast bullets the resistance of the harder necks may be causing some deformation of the bullet when seating also. And then as JSH mentioned; the difference in accuracy may have just been the different load and had nothing to do with the neck's hardness.

I anneal case necks for consistancy and longer case life, most often simply for the latter.

Larry Gibson

[Willbird]

Just so we completely understand, please describe HOW you annealed the necks ?? There are several common methods that people use. I am most interested in how you controlled temperature.

Bill

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Hornady makes a temperature-indicating compund ( Midway sells it). I anneal with the lights off and when the brass neck turns a dull red you know it is annealed. The lee trimmer lock stud works great on a drill at low speed for annealing. As said above, you could probably spin it in your fingers, but I would wear at least a thin pair of gloves.

[Willbird]

There is a product called "tempilaq" that a lot of people use too, brownells sells it maybe ??

What I was getting at is that many people over anneal, to a dead soft condition, so the exact degree of annealing is important information.

Bill

[sheepdog]

I read where Mike Ventrino anneals his cases every? time. He has a machine he puts them in.

Could be why the accuracy of my 40-65 Roller has fallen off when I use brass that is probably 6 years old and been fired many, many times?

Afrance, another caster on here I hook up with locally (who doesn't post much), anneals his 30-06 commercial brass every time. He gets great accuracy and the brass looks brand new. I think he uses a technique where he puts a washer the exact size down to the shoulder and uses a propane torch to rapidly heat the brass til he can tell by color its done than drop it in cold water. I've never done it and I would be careful not to over do it and just get the neck but his brass is always nice and fresh looking.

[405]

I anneal most of my cast bullet brass. Seems to help accuracy. The main reason I do tho it is to extend case life.

technique?
I use bamboo skewers. Stick skewer into primer flash hole. Hold neck in torch flame and rotate (skewer makes rotating easy and consistent) until neck turns red. Dunk in water. Best to do in darkened room to watch temperature/color. Good results.

[abunaitoo]

Shell are for a 1889 Schmidt Rubin. Norma brass.
The way I anneal is in a pan of water with a propane torch.
I have the water almost up to the shoulder.
Heat it untill I see the color move down past the shoulder.
It's not done in the dark, but no direct light.
I don't heat untill red. Don't want to over heat it.

I took the carousel out of an old microwave to spin the shells around.
Works good and was free.

[Shiloh]

TempilStik's work well also.

Practice on scrap brass. Heat till you get a bluish color then stop.
Heatsink the body. I put mine in water half way up the case.

Shiloh

[montana_charlie]

Just so we completely understand, please describe HOW you annealed the necks ??
Here's a video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbRdJqyFDGY

CM

[leadman]

Some of my brass for my 40-65 is nickel plated. How does this react to annealing using the method shown on youtube?
This is the brass I used first when I bought my Roller. The owner of the gunshop sized these down for me as my dies had not come in yet. Had some trouble with the necks splitting.

[RMulhern]

Here's 10 shots from 1000 yds. using ANNEALED BRASS!! Non-annealed won't do this! Consistent neck tension is a huge necessity for shooting long range! Without doing it....you may as well stay at the house!!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_879a12df.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=879a12df.jpg)

[Bass Ackward]

Yea, I always do better with annealed brass. If I don't get lazy.

I think that another benefit of the anneal is that lube and powder are burned away leaving raw brass which forms a better friction pattern with lead or copper for that matter.

This could be just as important as the uniform tension.

[RMulhern]

Yea, I always do better with annealed brass. If I don't get lazy.

I think that another benefit of the anneal is that lube and powder are burned away leaving raw brass which forms a better friction pattern with lead or copper for that matter.

This could be just as important as the uniform tension.

Bass Ackward

"lube and powder are burned away leaving raw brass which forms a better friction pattern"

You've left me in the dark on the above statement! Don't follow you!

???????:confused::confused:

[cajun shooter]

+1 on the post by FPMIII, I too was lost on that posting. My brass is annealed after the tumble and clean process with the ceramic. You should only anneal when your cases are ready to be loaded. Doing so before would cause them to be deformed and bent from the tumbling process. I have no lube or powder to be burned off

[Newtire]

Some of my brass for my 40-65 is nickel plated. How does this react to annealing using the method shown on youtube?
This is the brass I used first when I bought my Roller. The owner of the gunshop sized these down for me as my dies had not come in yet. Had some trouble with the necks splitting.

Hi leadman,

I annealed a bunch of nickel plated .357 brass before sizing it down to .256 Winchester magnum. I just used the method of standing it up in a pan of water and heating it until dull red before tipping over. It seems to have worked great as I get great accuracy and no split necks. I always wondered if I was making it too soft after reading alot of posting about it but quit worrying after doing it this way. I tried the hold it in your hand method and it didn't get me anywhere but burned fingers and split cases. To each his own and use what works for you.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward

"lube and powder are burned away leaving raw brass which forms a better friction pattern"

You've left me in the dark on the above statement! Don't follow you!

???????:confused::confused:


How I anneal leaves the neck clean enough to be almost naked, or .... raw. I describe this way because it isn't shiny as when new. But it is dry and basically carbon free which makes a tension difference that can be felt seating and impact pulling a slug.

My doubt comes from my methods. I just don't believe that my anneal technique (and it varies based upon mood, time, availability) provides that kind of brass consistency from batch to batch or case to case even that neck tension is truely made .... uniform. Could be, but it's blind luck. :grin: But they always turn out dry and I'll call it clean from the process.

In the end, tension is improved, bullets aren't negatively sized, the case sealed and something in there showed results.

[pdawg_shooter]

I still use the melted lead method. I has always worked well for me and is very uniform.

[Newtire]

I still use the melted lead method. I has always worked well for me and is very uniform.

Hi PDawg,
I tried the melted lead method but the lead just stuck to the brass and I had a helluva mess. What to do to prevent this? I dipped the case into the lead up to the neck. Is that how you do it?

[abunaitoo]

I know it's possible to get the brass to soft by using to much heat.
Wouldn't it make sense that if you anneal everytime you reload, you would make the metal to soft????
I try to do it every three to four reloads on thinner cases.

[686]

FOR THOSE that anneal there brass, who all cools them in water and who lets them air cool? I ANNEALED 10 7BR the lights on counting to 24 while turned the case. i desided to turn off the lights and desided that was to long. i then did 10 more but this time to a count of 11. i am going to test these to un annealed ones to see what shoots the best. if the less annealed ones are the best , would you anneal just a little each time after sizing? or only every 3-5 reloads? do you brush out the crud inside the neck after you anneal. it seams i hace stuf in the neck i do not see before i annealeed. thanks charles

[snaggdit]

What temp are we shooting for to obtain a proper anneal? I understand wanting to avoid dead soft. I would think that dipping in a known temp melted lead would be more controlled than twirling in a propane torch, but harder to control heat creeping up the case.

[abunaitoo]

I'm not sure, but I think the reason for droping in water is so the heat doesn't traval down to the base.
Want to make the neck soft because it moves the most.
Don't want the body to be soft because most of the pressure is there and if it's to soft, it may get stuck in the chamber.
I maybe wrong, but it's what I'm thinking.

[pdawg_shooter]

Hi PDawg,
I tried the melted lead method but the lead just stuck to the brass and I had a helluva mess. What to do to prevent this? I dipped the case into the lead up to the neck. Is that how you do it?

I dip the neck and shoulder in motor mica before going into the lead.

[pdawg_shooter]

What temp are we shooting for to obtain a proper anneal? I understand wanting to avoid dead soft. I would think that dipping in a known temp melted lead would be more controlled than twirling in a propane torch, but harder to control heat creeping up the case.

I set my pot to give me 750* lead, dip the neck and top of the shoulder until it gets uncomfortable to hold the head and drop in water.

[mroliver77]

You drop in water to keep heat from the case HEAD. If the head gets annealed the brass can flow and the case fail.
Somebody mentioned getting crud in the neck after annealing. It sounds like they are overheated and this is a no no.
Jay