Q's on the .45 Colt [Archive]

Sky C.

03-25-2006, 11:23 AM

Gentlemen-

I'm starting work to develop loads for the .45 Colt to shoot in both revolvers & a lever gun.

Initial trip to the range yesterday was disappoining to say the least. Loads were a combination of various powders paired with the LEE 255 RF PB mould. From the rifle - patterns of 6" to 8" were the norm at 25 yards! The revolver (Ruger Blackhawk) was doing about the same. (I shoot considerably better than this so this is definitely a load issue).

I had tried powders including Titegroup, 700-X, SR-7625, and Herco on this outing, with the LEE bullet both sized (0.452") and unsized using Gray's #24 lube & some that had been tumble lubed.

In addition to the poor accuracy, I noted that all the powders resulted in very dirty cases. While I did not chronograph the loads, they should have been in the 800fps to 900fps range - suitable also for original Colt SAA designs.

Questions.
1) My suspicion at this time is that the LEE design is simply not the bullet for these guns. I'd like to stick with a bullet design of less than 300gr. and I'm not hunting elephants so don't want to jack velocity above something I can shoot in original SAA designs.

How's your experience with the RCBS 45-270-SAA (Keith type design)?
Any other recommendations for bullet designs?

2) What's your experience with powders? Any available that deliver accuracy at velocity ranges between 800-900fps AND are clean burning?

Thanks for your insights!

Sky C.

Bucks Owin

03-25-2006, 11:51 AM

First thing I would do is measure the throats in your Ruger. If they are down around .448" or so (which isn't unusual) you've likely found your problem....
Then you can polish them out to .452" and find the accuracy you're looking for I'll bet....

2 centavos,

Dennis

I'd also try some Unique in your handloads, it's been a long favored powder for the .45 Colt....

Sky C.

03-25-2006, 12:02 PM

Howdy Bukcs Owin-

Good thought - but the Rugers dimensions are:

Slugged Bore: .4509" Cylinder throats: S+1 = .4512", S+2 = .4509", S+3 = .4509", S+4 = .4510", S+5 = .4511", S+6 = .4512"

Doesn't explaing the GROSS problem with the rifle either. I almost didn't bother checking the rifle at 25 yds. thinking that it was too close to see anything but a ragged hole - what a shock!

Thanks-

Sky C.

SharpsShooter

03-25-2006, 12:13 PM

I like the 255gr Lyman #454424 with 8gr of Unique. Velocity is 847fps and cases seal up good (read not dirty) and accuracy is very good in my experience.

biggome

03-25-2006, 12:23 PM

I have pretty fair luck with the Lee 452-255-RF in my 3.75" Vaquero having to keep in mind it always shoots low and left. With such a short barrel I use the fastest powder I have to keep the "flame thrower" effect down to a minimum as well as seal the case mouth against the cylinder while producing a pleasant to shoot all around load. I use 6.6 grains of AA Solo 1000 for right at 900 fps, any less and the cases are sooty. I use a slightly heavier charge for "clean case" loads with my 230 grain cast slugs.

Paul

w30wcf

03-25-2006, 12:35 PM

Sky C.
Sorry to hear of your troubles with your .45 Colt adventure so far. I have found the Lee 255 RFPB to be a good bullet in my .45 Colt's (3 handguns and a Marlin '94 Cowboy rifle).

When I bought the rifle back in '96, the first load I tried was 8.5 grs. Hodgdon's Universal / WLP/ under the Lee bullet (.454") made from w.w. + 2% tin. The 5 shot group @ 50 yards was 1.45" which I was very happy wth to say the least.

The Winchester load of 7.1 / 231 does just as well with this bullet. I would expect that any one of those powders you are using should be able to produce decent groups when everthing is right.

It sounds like your rifle barrel's groove diameter may be larger than your bullet (?).

Regarding the handguns, everything looks like it matches up ok although I prefer throats .001"-.002" over groove diameter, but that's just me.

What alloy are you using? That could very well be a factor.

Soot on the cases is about par for the .45 Colt, since chambers are typically generous.

w30wcf

singleshotbuff

03-25-2006, 12:38 PM

Sky,

I use 452424 with HP-38 (same as W231) or Universal clays. Great accuracy out of my 4 5/8" Blackhawk. Velocities are right around 850-900 too.

SSB

9.3X62AL

03-25-2006, 01:05 PM

The groove/cylinder dimensions look all right, and there's no good reason apparent for the rifle to be acting up. I hear ya, sir.

Any leading? That can be a giveaway to undersized boolits and/or loose spot in a barrel.

I have zero experience with the 45 Colt in a rifle, so I can't help with that. I do have a Bisley Blackhawk x 45 Colt that got a LOT more cooperative after I reamed the throats to .453" (from .449"!!) to mesh better with its .452" grooves. Boolits get sized at .454", and since "finishing the revolver's construction" it shoots everything at least "pretty well"--from 200 grain SWC's to 305 grain Lee GC behemoths. The revolver did shoot Lyman #454490 (255 SWC/GC) OK before its "tonsillectomy", but that was about it.

Like you, I want to find a plain base boolit ~250-260 grains that will do well at 1873 intensities. I have Lyman #454190 (old school 250 grain RFN) and #454424 (Keith 255 SWC) waiting in the wings to try out. This revolver didn't get much action over the past year or so--once I discovered that the throat work did the trick accuracy-wise, I went on to other ventures.

I'd like to return to this great caliber, and will do so shortly. I almost dragged out The Plastic yesterday at the shop where Marie picked up her SIG Mosquito--there was a NIB S&W M-25 Mountain Gun in 45 Colt at a reasonable price. I'm still sort of kicking myself over passing on a Colt New Service x 45 Colt at a good price at the Reno Gun Show, too. As a young deputy, I envied Anaheim PD officers and their agency's authorization of the 45 Colt as an optional service round--usually in S&W Model 25-5 x 4" platforms. The caliber is just plain useful and user-friendly--so I understand your frustration at your revolver's performance.

RayinNH

03-25-2006, 01:12 PM

Sky C. , I use three different boolits in my Blackhawk and Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Lee 452-255RF and Lyman 454190 and 454424. All of these are ACWW sized to .452. Red Dot powder has always performed well using 6-6.2 grs. I use 6.2 because my Lee Auto disk throws that weight and makes it easier. As w30wcf mentioned earlier sooty cases are fairly typical unless you up the pressure, at least that's what I have found particularly in the Marlin...Ray

felix

03-25-2006, 01:16 PM

If the loaded cases have too much slop in the cylinders, the cases will soot up with loads that would otherwise be OK. That is the biggest culprit nowadays in choosing a 45 colt gun of any type or manufacture. ... felix

9.3X62AL

03-25-2006, 01:33 PM

Felix/Jack et al......

Let's go to "the next question" regarding the chambering slop that causes the sooting.......could it not also cause linear misalignment of the cartridge with the bore? I would be tempted to try some manner of "neck-sizing" the cases to address this variable. One secondary benefit of the .454" boolits now used in my Bishawk could well be the .002" less radial clearance between the loaded cartridge and the chamber wall. I should add that I haven't had sooting problems with this revolver to date, but the idea is that a loaded cartridge lying at the bottom of a charge hole--effectively lowered out of axial concentricity--could play hell with accuracy. So too could a cartridge centered only at the rim end, but drooping downward at the boolit end. That scenario has the boolit starting at some subtlely skewed angle to the bore, as well as out of concentricity.

One other "old school" method to address linear misalignment between cylinder throat and bore was to use shoulderless round-nose profile boolits. Ken Waters made mention of this trick in his article on reloading the 32-20 WCF in rervolvers, and how such designs tend to "self-center in the bore" more readily than the SWC's with abrupt shoulders (Keith and Thompson designs, for example).

This is what happens when I sit around and start thinking, instead of heading out and going shooting.

Bucks Owin

03-25-2006, 01:40 PM

felix

03-25-2006, 02:04 PM

Yep, starting out with chamber slop almost requires an ogive of merit for the self centering effect. Slower ignition helps in this regard as well, but that has to be compromised with case sealing capability. Not too fast, not too slow. Probably, that's why Unique/Universal works so well with the Keiths. Round nose boolits seem to have a much wider range for providing the necessary functions. ... felix

44man

03-25-2006, 03:32 PM

Sorry guys but I have never seen a Ruger with a .4509 bore. It should be .452 to .453. That would make the throats too small as measured.
I suspect the slug was pushed past a tight barrel frame fit that should be removed.
I have never had the Lee boolit shoot bad, I would not blame it.

Castaway

03-25-2006, 03:46 PM

Try Unique. The 45 Colt thrives on it for plinker loads as well as replicating original loads. I use 6.8 grains under the Lee 255 RNFP as a plinker/turkey load in both my Black Hawk and Trapper. It shoots a five shot "X" ring at 50 yards from the rifle (820 f/s) and does quiet well from the pistol (680 f/s) at 25 yards. Note to all, this works only with cast bullets. Jacketed bullets are dangerous at this low of a velocity.

Sky C.

03-25-2006, 04:40 PM

Gentlemen-

As usual - good insights from this group. Thanks for your input.

Further info:
The boolits are cast from ACWW. BHN should be in the 11-12 range based on other boolits cast from this alloy though I did not take time to measure these specifically.
The LEE RFPB appears to be sufficiently large vs. grooves for both guns. Leading appears non-existant.
Sloppy chambers sound like a reasonable explanation for the sooted cases. I guess I'll need do some chamber cast but it's a PITA to get everything out and set up and I'm not sufficiently motivated to do that today. Especially considering that there is no "remedy" beyond neck sizing which sounds like a good approach no matter what.
I decided to check the fit of boolits into fired brass. The bullet will not drop into the mouth of a fired case. My impression is that this would speak against the chamber being excessively sloppy... ???
I also seated a bullet into a case and checked to see how much travel before it contacted the throat. The bullet has to travel about 0.190" beyond the crimp groove before it contacts the throat.

Beyond the neck sizing idea - any other suggestions on things I might try before rolling the dice & spending money on another mould? (Fire-lapping to remove a constriction at the frame/threads end is within my capability for the revolver. But I am mightily puzzled by the exceptionally poor performance of the rifle.)

Thanks again-

Sky C.

StarMetal

03-25-2006, 04:47 PM

Being my first 45 Long Colt was the old model Ruger Blackhawk, my load from over 30 yrs ago was 9.0 grs of Unique with the RCBS 255 gr SWC. Just ask 44man how it shoots out of my Smith 25 at 100 yards. It shoots just as great out of my Marlin Cowboy and my Winchester Trapper. I don't care if it shoots dirtier then Clays or whatever, to me the proof is in the accuracy....Unique delivers for me.

Joe

Castaway

03-25-2006, 05:21 PM

Sooty cases are an indication of a very light load that doesn't blow the case out effectively to seal it against the chamber wall.

45 2.1

03-25-2006, 05:40 PM

Cut your WW with pure lead half and half, cast some more with that alloy, size to 0.452" with a soft lube and try these charges: 6.0 gr of RedDot, 8 gr. of Unique, 7.0 gr. of WW231. One of those with softer boolits should do the trick.

454PB

03-25-2006, 11:12 PM

I use the Lee 255 gr. SWC mould in all my .45's and 454's with outstanding results. In .45 Colt, 9 to 10 gr. of Unique is the ticket. I agree that sooty cases is a sign pressure is too low or peaking too slowly. Bluedot is one of my favorite powders for medium class loads in .454 Casull, but when reduced enough for .45 Colt, it produces the sooty cases you describe.

Larry Gibson

03-25-2006, 11:26 PM

Sooty cases are an indication of a very light load that doesn't blow the case out effectively to seal it against the chamber wall.

Castaway hit the nail on the head. I've loaded for three rifle/revolver combinations and I had similar problems in load developemnt with all three. The revolver is the limiting factor. if a Colt SAA or one of it's slones is used. Another is the restrictions on bullet weight and velocity for cowboy make believe. I currently have an Uberti 5 1/2" barreled SAA and a M92 Rossi rifle with 24" barrel both in .45 Colt.

One thing I learned with the first rifle/revolver combo I had is if the load shoots well in the rifle it will most often shoots well in the revolver. Thus load for the rifle and use it in the revolver. Of course safe loads for the weakest of the two drive the train. With the .45 Colt I found the classic load of the 255 gr Keith SWC over 8.5 gr Unique shot great in the Uberti revolver was only so-so in the rifle. Another problem was definately case obturation. In the rifle the pressure was not sufficient to expand the W-W cases and seal the chamber. Besides the sooty cases I got a puff of gas blow back to the forehead with each shot. That's generally not a problem with Marlins but it is with open top Winchesters. I had the very same problem with a M94 .44 Mag and the lighter loads. I could up the charge of Unique to obturate the case but those loads were pushing the Uberti SAA. Also the 1-30" twist was giving some accuracy problems with the 255 gr bullets at the 1000 fps the 8.5 gr Unique was doing in the rifle. At 100 yards I was geting very large groups of 12+" and definate indications of keyholing.

I found happiness with a Lee 200 gr RNFP cowboy bullet over 7.5 gr Bullseye. Velocity is 1206 out of the rifle with excellent accuracy to 200 yards (just the farthest I've plinked with it so far). Out of the Uberti the same load does 932 fps with accuracy around 1 1/2 - 2" at 25 yards. No more obturation woes and just fun shooting. Bullets are cast of range lead with added tin or WWs. They dropp at .454 from the Lee 2 cavity mould and are sized .454 and lubed with Javelina. The Lee 190 SWC for the .45 ACP works just as well and is the better killer on jack rabbits.

I'd suggest a lighter bullet which will stabilize better and Bullseye powder.

Larry Gibson.

StarMetal

03-25-2006, 11:39 PM

Larry Gibson

03-25-2006, 11:51 PM

Larry,

I found different. My load of the RCBS 255 gr over 9.0 grs of Unique in my old model Ruger Blackhawk, my S&W Model 25, my Winchester 94 Trapper, and my Marlin Cowboy....just love it and even at long distances. Funny how the cases seal in your revolver, especially since they have the barrel/cylinder gap, and they don't in your rifle.

Joe

Well 9 gr of Unique did a fairly good job of sealing the chamber in my Rossi also and gave good accuracy and it was running 1119 fps. Trouble is I always considered 8.5 gr with the 250-255 gr bullet to be the practical maximum load for SAAs. Your Ruger BH and S&W are ok with 9 gr. I have concerns about the Uberti. It appears the 8.5 gr load at 1000 fps in the Rossi was just borderline stabilized and was loosing it at 100 yards. Still can't figure why they stick with the slow twists in rifles but that's another subject. The cases were pretty sooty in the revolver also, just don't get any thing back in the face with it. Maybe I've got a hard lot of brass(?).

Larry Gibson

StarMetal

03-25-2006, 11:58 PM

Larry Gibson

03-26-2006, 12:23 AM

Larry,

That Marlin I have has a 1/38 twist and my God it shoots good. I was really impressed with it when I first started shooting it. Right after I had just got it I went into the woods on my place. It was squirrel season, but I really was just taking a walk. I saw a squirrel on a branch about 65 yards so I took a crack at him. Darn if I didn't hit him..with that 255 gr SWC too. Didn't mess him up very bad either. Then after I picked him up I saw a cat...BOOM..got him too. On the way back to the house I found a box turtle....didn't shoot him...let him go. Had a really great first time out with that rifle.

Joe

Don't get me wrong, not saying they won't shoot well at all. I'm saying the slow twists have trouble with the heavy bullets at the low end speeds. As I said the Rossi is shooting just fine with the 200 gr Lee bullet. I also have a Lyman 452490 that casts a 240 gr GC SWC. I've got a load with it for the Rossi only that runs 1525 fps and shoots into 2 " at 100 yards when I use the reciever sight on the Rossi. It would be a safe load in a Blackhawk but it's definately not safe in the Uberti. Yup they can be shooters alright. Sounds like you had a great little hunt there. Sometimes it's ones like them that are best remembered. I especially liked the cat part.

Larry Gibson

John Boy

03-26-2006, 12:35 AM

Felix is correct on the Ruger throat size.

Just a suggestion based on my RV modifications:
* ... Ream the throats out to 0.4545
* ... Chamfer the forcing cone
* ... Shoot 454's

As for the cases being sooty... that's indicative of a straight case. May want to use the Lee Factory Carbide Crimping Die and bite the bullet down with a good crimp. Won't eliminate the sooting, but will lessen it.

felix

03-26-2006, 12:49 AM

Winchester got it right, finally. The twist, that is. 26 twist for both the 45 and 44 lever guns. Good for 300 grainers plus and any speed. There is somebody making a match ACP barrel with 24 twist. That will be my next barrel, if the current one wears out because of dirt, sand, etc. Likely in my son's lifetime, because this Kimber is being used at the riva' and not as a competive gun as was initially intended. ... felix

StarMetal

03-26-2006, 02:07 AM

Larry,

To give you an idea of my RCBS 255 gr SWC weight, it often weighed over 260 grs with my softer alloys...and still shot well out of the Marlins slow twist. Maybe for the fun of it and a test I'll size down some of my 45-70 RCBS 405 grainers and shoot them out of the Marlin and see what they do.

Joe

w30wcf

03-26-2006, 10:51 AM

Sky C.
In response to your observations: "I decided to check the fit of boolits into fired brass. The bullet will not drop into the mouth of a fired case. My impression is that this would speak against the chamber being excessively sloppy... ???
I also seated a bullet into a case and checked to see how much travel before it contacted the throat. The bullet has to travel about 0.190" beyond the crimp groove before it contacts the throat." I submit the following............

Early .45 Colt cartridges were loaded with .456/.457 diameter hollow based bullets. In fact, Winchester Cowboy ammunition uses .456" diameter bullets according to some rounds I dissected, and current Remington 250 gr. swaged hollow based bullets are .456" in diameter. The Winchester Cowboy ammunition is very accurate in my rifle and I have had some 2 - 2 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with it. You may want to pick up a box and give it a try.

Most current .45 Colt brass is pretty stout and will "spring back" a few thousands after being fired. If you have't already done so, try running your expander button back into a fired case to iron out the crimp and see if a bullet will fit.

In my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy rifle, the jump to the rifling is about the same as yours, so unless something else is amiss, once you find the proper combination, the rifle should shoot aok. My rifle's groove diameter is .4525" and I shoot .454 to .457" diameter bullets in it. I have an older 457190 that drops bullets at .457" so I just lube them in a .457" die. Bullets at that diameter shoot just a little better than the .454's and besides, it's larger diameter helps seal the chamber better.

I have been neck sizing my .45 Colt brass for about 20 years now and that works very well also. I adjust my Lyman Carbide Sizing die to size the case to about 1/16" below where the base of the bullet will rest. The decaping pin is adjusted to deprime in the same operation.

What .45 Colt rifle do you have?

Good luck.
w30wcf

w30wcf

03-26-2006, 11:14 AM

Larry,
Thank you for the additional information.

John Boy,
THank you for the added info. I did what you mentioned to my 2nd Ruger Blackhawk in additon to lapping out the bore constriction that 44 Man mentioned. Those mod's made it shoot much better.

Felix,
My Marlin has the earlier 1/38" twist. When I first got the rifle back in 1997, I did some testing with heavier bullets to see what it would and would not stabilize, knowing that velocity would also play a roll. I found that it would stabilize a 350 gr. cast bullet (457192), BUT .... only if the velocity was 1,350 f.p.s. and over. At 1,250 f.p.s. there was scuffing on the 100 yard target. One of my favorite .45 Colt bullets is the RCBS 300 gr. (315 grs. on w.w.). I size it to .457 with no gas check. 20 grs. of 4227 pushes it to 1,250 f.p.s. with very good accuracy. Drop 100 f.p.s. and scuffing appears.

Starmetal,
I tried the RCBS 405 in the 1/38" twist with a capacity load of 296 but they keyholed. A friend's '92 Winchester .45 Colt with the faster twist shot them very well.

w30wcf

Bass Ackward

03-26-2006, 11:37 AM

Yep. Accuracy starts back in the chamber. If you can't load a large enough bullet to seal at the pressures the gun needs to operate, then your options for powder choices really deminishes. Then really soft lead rules as it will .... deform up and plug until the brass finally gets there. But as with the Colt, pure lead was what made it what it remains today.

If you can't seal the gas in the chamber, you have very little chance for accuracy with a straight sided case. Sometimes when I hear the big bullet arguments going I really wonder if accuracy is achieved because of improved alignment / bullet fit or just better ignition from a faster sealed case and delayed bullet travel down the bore.

Ignition, ignition, ignition.

Bucks Owin

03-26-2006, 01:38 PM

Yep, anywhere from 8 to 10 grs Unique is a "classic" .45 Colt load and should work well in your's too amigo. 10 grs should get you 1,000+ fps even with the short barrel....(And is a potent load!)
Actually, the same amount works well in my .44 mag with a 250 gr Keith boolit....

FWIW,

Dennis

Doughty

03-26-2006, 03:17 PM

Sky C,

The .45 Colt revolver/levergun combo seems to really be popular. I know it sure appealed to me. I have Vaqueros and a Marlin Cowboy. The problems I had when I first got them sound very much like the ones you are describing. After shooting and measuring and experimenting here's what I came up with.

The throats of my Vaquero's measured much like yours. I throated them all out to .453-. I determined that they and the Marlin would chamber rounds that had bullets up to .456 in diameter. After trying several different moulds that I had on hand I decided to try to design one that would be the optimum compromise for all. I settled on a bullet that would cast at .455 to .456 on the main bearing bands. One good sized lube groove. A nose band at .452 diameter. For length, I wanted as much nose as I could get and still cycle through the Marlin. The bullet I came up with is pictured below. It has an loaded overall length of 1.680. This allows it to cycle through the Marlin and come within .075 of the Vaquero's cylinder face. The nose band is .010 in length which lines up well in the revolvers and is juct clear of a jam fit in the Marlin. It has a meplat of .350 and out of WW it weighs 275 grains. I am currently shooting it in front of 13.5 grains of AA#7. Out of the revolvers it goes in the 850 to 900 range. In the rifles, in the high 1100s.

Perhaps no one bullet can be the perfect fit for all guns, but this has been a pretty good compromise in the several guns it has been tried in around here. If you would like to try some bullets, I would be happy to send you some to try or a mould if you rather make some out of your alloy.

doughty@blackfoot.net

Cherokee

03-27-2006, 02:28 PM

Lots of suggestions and "works for me". I'll add what I have been using for several years: Marlin 24" CAS gun, three Ruger OM 45 Colt 7.5" gobble this load and are very accurate (ragged holes). RCBS 230CM (RNFP), cast out at 230 gr with WW+2%, sized .452 with CCI LP and 5.0 gr of Winchester Super Target, plus some roll crimp.

Prior to that I was using 7/231WW with the RCBS 255 Keith. It was great too but not a cowboy bullet.

Sky C.

03-27-2006, 04:17 PM

Gentlemen-

Thanks again for all the excellent feedback and suggestions. I will start trying to work my way through these step at a time - easiest solutions first of course.

"Old Vic" - PM sent your way. Beautiful looking bullet (AND mould!)

Guns wise - I am trying to get a single load to shoot acceptably (accuracy & safely)in a Marlin cowboy lever gun, multiple Ruger Blackhawks, and modern clones (AWA Peacekeeper & a USFA). Not looking for CAS type load - want something that approximates the original loading but with smokeless. Something in the 800 - 900 FPS range in the revolvers with bullet of 250-270ish grs., this in deference to the original Colt design revolvers. I'm estimating out of the rifle I'll get another 250-300fps. When all is said & done - it may be that I end up with one load suitable for the Marlin/Ruger combo & may have to do something else with the clones. Along those lines - I've stuffed a few more cases with bullets in the 300gr & 315gr. range just to see what a different bullet will do. Also stuffed some exactly the same as last outing (LEE RNFP-PB) for a reference.

Something has been nagging at me. The rifle groups are just TOO BIG. I'm having a hard time believing that anything load wise (alone) could account for such a poor performance. As I've been turning it over in my head, I've come to wonder whether there was a problem with my bench technique. It occurs to me that these will be very slow loads in the rifle = long barrel time. I was shooting with my hand grasping the forend and that hand rested lightly against a sandbag. Could it be that my hand was rebounding inconsistantly off the sandbag and causing the shots to scatter??? I've seen something similar with a heavy recoiling .348 and changes in bench technique made a significant change in group sizes. I'm going to try some different things at the bench next time out to answer this question as well.

Thanks again for everyones suggestions. I'll post again after some more work.

Best regards-

Sky C.