destroyer carbine

[chevyiron420]

does anyone have any loading experience with the 9mm largo in this carbine they will share? mine has been picky with what bullet it will feed. so far it has a thirst for 147gr XTP's and i just cant afford to feed it. i am going to work up a cast load for it and would be greatfull for any advise with mold selection and powder.:cbpour:

[Terrier]

Here is a place to start.
http://www.9mmlargo.com/index.htm
You can also google the Largo round.
Best of luck,
Terroer

[Harry O]

The 9mm Largo site listed above is a great place to learn about the Largo, including the carbine. It has been inactive for the last 2 or 3 years. If you think you are going to need anything, run off a hardcopy.

I have a couple of Largos. One an Astra 400 and one a Star Model A. No carbine, though. You can get 9mm Largo ammo from a number of sources, but you can also load your own cheaply. I think it is Redding that has a 9x19 through 9x23 set of dies that are cheaper than dedicated 9mm Largo dies. They work for 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, and 9mm Largo. You may also be able to find some 9x23 brass cheaper than Starline Largo brass. I did on an auction board. That works, too. I use standard 9mm Luger loads (bullet and powder) in it and both guns have no problems with it.

If you are trying to use anything other than round-nose, FMJ in it, it probably will be pickey. Mine are.

[S.R.Custom]

I've got a friend with one in .38 ACP. It pukes on anything other than 130 gr round-nose.

[Larry Gibson]

I've had a Destroyer for around 15 years or so. I set the barrel back in mine so .38 Super cases would headspace (pre intro of Starline cases). I got mine with a couple of spare magazines and quickly found out the magazine lips were the cause of most feeding problems. I adjusted the lips to fit the contour and shaped of new commercial .38 super M1911 magazines and the all feed any type of bullet except full WCs. The most used cast bullet in mine is the Lee 356-120-TC. My wife shoots them about as fast as I can cast and load them on a Dillon 550B!

Larry Gibson

[chevyiron420]

I've had a Destroyer for around 15 years or so. I set the barrel back in mine so .38 Super cases would headspace (pre intro of Starline cases). I got mine with a couple of spare magazines and quickly found out the magazine lips were the cause of most feeding problems. I adjusted the lips to fit the contour and shaped of new commercial .38 super M1911 magazines and the all feed any type of bullet except full WCs. The most used cast bullet in mine is the Lee 356-120-TC. My wife shoots them about as fast as I can cast and load them on a Dillon 550B!

Larry Gibson

thats a neet idea about setting the barrel back for 38 super. i have heard that magazines can be made from 38 super colt mag's, i havent tryed it. i had a visit with another member today and he loaned me a 124 grain 9mm lee mold. its the tumble lube design, so ill cast up some hopefully saturday afternoon. my barrel sluggs .356 so i hope they work well. what kind of velocity do you thing is safe for the plain base boolit? i know it depends on alot of things. im going to try the tumble lube thing again, i havent had much luck with it. powders i have on hand are, bullseye, red dot, unique, olin540(like hs6). what powder and load do you think would be a good start? i would like to use some of the red dot, its not being used at all since i quit loading shotgun.

[Larry Gibson]

Chevyiron420

I've tried several PB 9mm and 38/357 bullets. I mostly size them .358 for my Destroyer. The Lee 356-120-TC is the most accurate with 3 gr of Bullseye or WST at 970 fps. At 1450 fps it is not as accurate with 5.5 gr Bullseye but is still minute of beer can at 50 yards. The Lyman 121-124 RN cast bullet does just about the same. Ltman's 358477 is my favorite "heavy" bullet as over 4.5 gr Unique it runs 1200 fps and thumps beer cans all day long. With your Lee TL bullet I'd start at 2.8 gr of that Red Dot and work up in 2-3 tenths of a gr. I found that accuracy was best under 1050 fps with all PB'd 9mm or 38/357 cast bullets.

I set the barrel back 1/2 thread. I hand made (wasn't hard at all) a small spacer for the feed ramp area. I also removed the rears sight base and it was easy to heat and loosen the solder on the front sight base and turn it 180 degrees. I've a Williams aperture sight on a rear base mounted on the rear reciever ring. A Weaver base for the Contender fits the barrel profile and I mounted one there. A small Tasco red dot sit compliments it ala "scout" fashion. I modified a couple surplus .45 mags and the work fine.

Like I indicated my wife really likes shooting the Destroyer now, especially with the red dot sight, as there is no recoil and not much noise. My problem is keeping her in ammo as even with a 6 cavity mould and a Dillon 550B she still gets ahead of me!

With jacketed bullets the little Destroyer, with appropriate hand loads, is in the longer barreled 357 Magnum revolver class. Using Unique I push the bulk 125 gr Remingtons SPs to 1500 fps, 115 XTPs to 1700 fps and Sierra 90 gr HCs to 1800 fps. Turns Jack rabbits into "bits". I use a 9mm die to just neck size and slightly size the body the loaded rounds are somewhat bottle necked. My loaded rounds will no longer chamber in a .38 super so I don't worry about the loads being inadvertantly fired in one. Cerainly makes for a neat little "one of a kind" cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[chevyiron420]

thank you so much for the info. i poured about a hundred of the 124 grain lees from the mold my buddy loaned me. they measure .359, but chamber freely, so i tumble lubed them and let dry over night. i have never had any luck with alox, but im giving it one more try. i loaded the 50 empty's i had with 3 grains of bullseye. now all i need is an oportunity to test em. our shootin range is closed for moving.:castmine:

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/4FFDE36264BD077/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/70FB3F38BF60C27/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/9A75475EFE7F865/standard.jpg

I had 2 Destroyer Carbines. Century had them (at the time) for $69 apiece. Both were nifty little carbines with bright bores. Brass was made from Winchester 9mm Mag brass wich was readily available then. Lotsa trimming, but they worked well and headspaced on the casemouth. I got some pretty fancy ballistics out of them. I ended up selling one and converting the other (pictures above) to 45ACP.

I guess the barrel change was worthwhile as it is MUCH more accurate then either was in the original 9mm Largo chambering. I also got some blistering ballistics out of this one also. They were energetic enough to nave the barreld action begin walking backwards through the stock. Not ein the above left photo the 2 added recoil bolts through the stock? I eventually regained my senses and realized my 45-70's would give me what the 45 ACP Destroyer did, and MUCH more safely :-)

The rear sight was offered by Numrich for $25 each. They're old steel Lymans and were a buy even then. Found out later Lyman made them for Mossberg. Mossberg had a left handed target rifle, so that's why they mounted on the right side.

..............Buckshot

[Franklin Zeman]

My bore is .348 with a groove diameter of .358. That is pretty deep for grooves. With the wide lands and deep grooves, these barrels should handle fairly soft cast bullets quite well in just about any 38 Spl configuration.
In another vein, the lock time seems like you could time it with a calendar. Do I have a very weak or stressed out spring or are they all that way????
The trigger pull is also in need of attention. Long pull that is very raspy. Two audible clicks before a fairly decent letoff. Anyone make progress on improving that????

[Franklin Zeman]

Took it apart today and looked at the sear. Must have been ground with about a 60 grit wheel and never polished up. Gave the trigger and sear an exposure to some very fine stuff and it took all the rasp out of it. Still has a long pull and audible click.
While the bolt was laying there, decided to clean out the firing pin hole and see if that might help. It was NOT a waste of time. Remains to be seen if the lock time was improved.
Has anyone tried a peep sight on the bridge? The ladder rear sight is a blur with these old eyes.

[Larry Gibson]

Both Buckshot's and mine have reciever (peep) sights on the bridge.

Larry Gibson

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/EFE3FFB26179CF8/standard.jpg

.............A better photo of the Lyman apurture rear sight on the Destroyer.

..............Buckshot

[leftiye]

Sarco has surplus ammo, both corrosive and non-corrosive at good prices.

9X23 Win. brass (starline brand and others for major power competition) is available. This brass is thicker and stronger than the older largo brass is. It takes pretty hot loads in my Star modelo super (with loaded chamber indicator??? yes) and shows zero case expansion (interpreted that production case is an almost identical fit to pistol's chamber). Blue dot works very well. PM me if you want to know my loads, I don't want to get flamed here for my loads.

Guns (identical models) are also produced in 9mm which functions at 50,000 psi in european loads. American loads are in the low to mid 30,000 psi. pressure range. Identical headsize, btw, so 9X23 shouldn't have any pressure problems, but slide would be cycling faster and beat the gun up faster. So don't hot load it except for defense or hunting (?). On the other hand, if you want a 1000 fps cast boolit load - why wear out an older gun at all, shoot the 9mm as it will easily attain that velocity.

[Larry Gibson]

Just a picture of my "Scout" Destroyer.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Just a picture of my "Scout" Destroyer.

Larry Gibson

Is that your group behind it? [smilie=l::kidding::bigsmyl2:

[45 2.1]

What a group Larry........... and it's not really necessary to set the barrel back for the 38 Super case to work either.....it's better to turn the bolt face slightly so both rounds still work.

Most of the 9mm RN boolits shoot well and feed fine in the destroyer carbines....... out to about 300 yds at least.

[Larry Gibson]

Well, we see once again these two are attempting to disrupt another thread with their inane posts. Kindly ignore them folks for they know not what they do.




What a group Larry........... and it's not really necessary to set the barrel back for the 38 Super case to work either.....it's better to turn the bolt face slightly so both rounds still work.

Here we see 45 2.1's attempt at a response. The rim of the .38 super case fits the bolt face perfectly without turning the bolt face, on my Destroyer anyway. The problem was one of headspace if he would have bothered to read my post. To explain to him; the chamber of the Destroyer is set up for headspace to be controlled by the chamber mouth and the length of the .38 Super cases. The .38 Super cases were too short and misfires occured frequently. The minimal extractor (addressed in another member's post on this thread) would not sufficiently hold the .38 Super case back for consistent ignition. Thus the head space was to long (got that 45 2.1?). The set back of the barrel by 1/2 thread corrected the problem and my Destroyer feeds, fires and extracts .38 Super cases slicker than snot. To bad 45 2.1's "expertise" did not allow him to understand the problem and the obvious solution before making such a rediculously incorrect response. Another demonstration of where his thought process is when he responds to my posts.

As to that being the group behind the Destroyer? No it isn't. Obviously every one but the two of you undertsand the target behind the Destroyer is there simply to provide a lighter back ground to highlight the subject of the photograph. That's the Destroyer in case your still confused........:kidding:

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Well, we see once again these two are attempting to disrupt another thread with their inane posts. Kindly ignore them folks for they know not what they do.




What a group Larry........... and it's not really necessary to set the barrel back for the 38 Super case to work either.....it's better to turn the bolt face slightly so both rounds still work.

here we see 45 2.1's attempt at a respose. The rim of the .38 super case fit the bolt face perfectly without turning the bolt face. The problem was one of headspace. The chamber of the Destroyer is set up for headspace to be controlled by the chamber mouth and the length of the .38 Super cases. The .38 Super cases were too short and misfires occured frequently. The minimal extractor (addressed in another post on this thread) would not sufficiently hold the .38 Super case back for consistent ignition. Thus the head space was to long (got that 45 2.1?). The set back of the barrel by 1/2 thread corrected the problem and my Destroyer feeds, fires and extracts .38 Super cases slicker than snot. To bad 45 2.1's "expertise" did not allow him to understand the problem and the obvious solution before making such a rediculously incorrect response. Another demonstration of where his thought process is when he responds to my posts.

As to that being the group behind the Destroyer? No it isn't. Obviously every one but the two of you undertsand the target behind the Destroyer is there simple to provide a lighter back ground to highlight the subject of the photograph. That's the Destroyer in case your still confused........:kidding:

Larry Gibson

Nice group Larry, at least you kept them on the target paper this time and not just the target backer.

Global Warming :takinWiz:

[45 2.1]

Well, we see once again these two are attempting to disrupt another thread with their inane posts. Kindly ignore them folks for they know not what they do.




What a group Larry........... and it's not really necessary to set the barrel back for the 38 Super case to work either.....it's better to turn the bolt face slightly so both rounds still work.

Here we see 45 2.1's attempt at a response. The rim of the .38 super case fits the bolt face perfectly without turning the bolt face, on my Destroyer anyway. The problem was one of headspace if he would have bothered to read my post. To explain to him; the chamber of the Destroyer is set up for headspace to be controlled by the chamber mouth and the length of the .38 Super cases. The .38 Super cases were too short and misfires occured frequently. The minimal extractor (addressed in another member's post on this thread) would not sufficiently hold the .38 Super case back for consistent ignition. Thus the head space was to long (got that 45 2.1?). The set back of the barrel by 1/2 thread corrected the problem and my Destroyer feeds, fires and extracts .38 Super cases slicker than snot. To bad 45 2.1's "expertise" did not allow him to understand the problem and the obvious solution before making such a rediculously incorrect response. Another demonstration of where his thought process is when he responds to my posts.

As to that being the group behind the Destroyer? No it isn't. Obviously every one but the two of you undertsand the target behind the Destroyer is there simply to provide a lighter back ground to highlight the subject of the photograph. That's the Destroyer in case your still confused........:kidding:

Larry Gibson

Larry...still being himself, now dry up and blow away along with your volumous writing and negative responses. I guess your destroyer was out of spec since several others did fine the way I mentioned. I also see you never loaded many rounds for the Super since your method negates any chance of shooting well in one.

[deerslayer]

Wow, scathing, can't we all just get along! Of course if we could have all gotten along from day one there would probably be no guns and we would all be mindless vegans craving protien!

[StarMetal]

Nice group Larry!!! Did you head space that Destroyer with a set of head space gauges or did you used a sized case like when you bubba'ed that MexSwede?

Global Warming RPM Threshold :takinWiz:[smilie=w:

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Larry...still being himself, now dry up and blow away along with your volumous writing and negative responses. So very nice of you to respond in such a positive fashion.I guess your destroyer was out of spec since several others did fine the way I mentioned. Very possibly the specs on my Destroyer were different from yours. I understand that but that fact seems to escape you. The headspace dimension for the 9mm Bergman Bayard is .015 longer than that for the .38 Super. Given the usual generous tolerances of milsurps, especially the cheaper made Spanish ones, and there is little doubt of tolerence differences. I stated what I did with mine to headspace it for the .38 Super. Of course your options may be different. I understand that, apparently you don't .I also see you never loaded many rounds for the Super since your method negates any chance of shooting well in one. My method of loading produces a neck sized case basically that fits the chamber of my specific rifle. My cast bullet loads shoot all day into 1.5" at 50 yards with the dot sight (4 moa dot that is 2 moa at 50 yards so the 1.5 groups are pretty darn good. The jacketed loads shoot into 2 moa at 100 yards with the reciever sight. I suppose yours and starmetals shoot into 1/5" moa and only drop 3" at 300 yards with a 100 yard zero but I guess you two are just the worlds greatest shots. I don't attempt to compete with your claimed levels of accuracy, I just state what I do with mine. However, more importantly, the way I load my .38 Super cases for the Destroyer negate their use in any actual .38 super chamber. That is important since many of my cast and jacketed bullet loads exceed the psi for use in .38 Supers, particularly semi auto handguns. A matter of safety you know.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Nice group Larry!!! Did you head space that Destroyer with a set of head space gauges or did you used a sized case like when you bubba'ed that MexSwede?

Global Warming RPM Threshold :takinWiz:[smilie=w:

Yup, I sure did use a "bubba" technique just like PO Ackley and all those gunsmiths who chamber true wildcat cartridges of which there are no headspace gauges available. I guess they are all "buuba's" too!

I trimmed a Winchester 9 mm Magnum down to the max case length for a .38 Super and used that to headspace the Destroyer. Works just perfect with my reloads, factory .38 Super ammo and factory .38 ACP ammo. Yup, works perfect.

The Mex Swede shoots all factory and milsurp ammo just perfectly too with minimal movement of the case shoulder forward. Gives me less stretch in the web and much longer case life. Accuracy is excellent also. Strange how you praised the Mex Swede before and now you criticise. Would be easier on all if you were consistent.

Back to the Destroyer though, it sure shoots fine with cast bullets after the modifications where as before it wasn't a good shooter at all. Thus the modifications were an improvement.

Thanks for the thoughtful response as it gave me an opportunity to give more detail in what I di so others may benifit.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Larry...still being himself, now dry up and blow away along with your volumous writing and negative responses. So very nice of you to respond in such a positive fashion.I guess your destroyer was out of spec since several others did fine the way I mentioned. Very possibly the specs on my Destroyer were different from yours. Or you got a bubba'd one from somebody doing the same thing you did....... thats more likely. That fact is now it probably isn't marked for the proper ammunition (whatever that is now) when it changes hands and will cause problems in the future. I understand that but that fact seems to escape you. The headspace dimension for the 9mm Bergman Bayard is .015 longer than that for the .38 Super. Given the usual generous tolerances of milsurps, especially the cheaper made Spanish ones, and there is little doubt of tolerence differences. I stated what I did with mine to headspace it for the .38 Super. Of course your options may be different. I understand that, apparently you don't .I also see you never loaded many rounds for the Super since your method negates any chance of shooting well in one. My method of loading produces a neck sized case basically that fits the chamber of my specific rifle. My cast bullet loads shoot all day into 1.5" at 50 yards with the dot sight (4 moa dot that is 2 moa at 50 yards so the 1.5 groups are pretty darn good. If you say so, but some pistol shooters wouldn't agree with you on that. The jacketed loads shoot into 2 moa at 100 yards with the reciever sight. I suppose yours and starmetals shoot into 1/5" moa and only drop 3" at 300 yards with a 100 yard zero but I guess you two are just the worlds greatest shots. That seems to be your claim. Stick with the low velocity loads where you have a footing. I don't attempt to compete with your claimed levels of accuracy, I just state what I do with mine. However, more importantly, the way I load my .38 Super cases for the Destroyer negate their use in any actual .38 super chamber. Didn't you say that you set them up to headspace on the case mouth? Just how does that not let them be used in a marked 38 Super gun (unless they're too fat)? Many Supers will accept things like that and modern Super cases aren't as hefty as the 9mm Largo case in many respects. That is important since many of my cast and jacketed bullet loads exceed the psi for use in .38 Supers, particularly semi auto handguns. A matter of safety you know. Larry Gibson Safety..........maybe you should look up the pressure specs for the two (9mm Bergman-Bayard versus 38 Super Auto, just so you know which is which) before you make claims like that.

[StarMetal]

Maybe you better read this Mr. Gibson, before you get someone hurt here:

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/largo_vs_others.htm

[MT Gianni]

Is it time for a lock? cause this thread is heading that way.

[wiljen]

Nah, if you lock it they just go bash each other on a different thread. I would start handing out days off to the participants if they don't start behaving.

[Larry Gibson]

Maybe you better read this Mr. Gibson, before you get someone hurt here:

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/largo_vs_others.htm

Can't argue with that article at all. Pretty factual actually. That is why by using a 9mm die and leaving the case formed to the specific chamber of my bolt action RIFLE (not the semi auto handguns mentioned in the article) my loaded ammo can not be chambered in a .38 Super handgun or any for any of the other cartridges mentioned in that article. That is what I meant about safety in my response to 45 2.1.

Good article starmetal but you should have directed it to 45 2.1. Thanks for the information.

Larry Gibson

[Franklin Zeman]

My problem is getting a good sight picture to test with. I am satisfied with my loads/headspace/sizing/etc. Would prefer a peep sight as far back as possible. Looking at the reciever, and the cut thru the very top for the extractor, I would not even try to drill and tap a anything in that area. At my age, the blur is making for shotgun patterns. I don't see reciever sights for mounting on the right hand side of the action. WHat to do ??????? Solder a Williams sight on top ????? Isn't that sight made of aluminum???? NEED HELP !!!!!!!

[StarMetal]

Can't argue with that article at all. Pretty factual actually. That is why by using a 9mm die and leaving the case formed to the specific chamber of my bolt action RIFLE (not the semi auto handguns mentioned in the article) my loaded ammo can not be chambered in a .38 Super handgun or any for any of the other cartridges mentioned in that article. That is what I meant about safety in my response to 45 2.1.

Good article starmetal but you should have directed it to 45 2.1. Thanks for the information.

Larry Gibson

I'm just concerned that someone might possibly put hot loads in 9mm Largo. The are not meant to shoot the 38 super loads as that article mentioned. There is a misconception that the Astra that are 9mm Largos were made to shoot all the different 9mm's and they were not. I do believe the Astra is robust enough to get away with doing that and fools some into thinking just that.

I wasn't quite sure if you meant your loads wouldn't fit a 38 Super, but you're rectified that now.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

"Didn't you say that you set them up to headspace on the case mouth? Just how does that not let them be used in a marked 38 Super gun (unless they're too fat)? Many Supers will accept things like that and modern Super cases aren't as hefty as the 9mm Largo case in many respects."

Had you paid attention to my post you'd understand what I meant about making a "bottle necked" cartridge when the cases were just neck sized with the 9mm die. The base of the cartridge at the web expands on firing and is not sized down as with regualar .38 super dies. Thus the cases have a marked taper to them and do not chamber in any .38 Super chamber or other 9mm cartridge chambers as mentioned in the article. They may chamber in another Destroyer but it would be quite capable of handling the loads.

I got the Destroyer direct from Century Arms and cleaned the cosmoline out of it. It has not been "bubba'd" by anyone other than this "bubba". Surprisingly, even after setting the barrel back it still chambers and fires milsurp 9mm Bergman Bayard (Largo in Spanisheze).

Safety..........maybe you should look up the pressure specs for the two (9mm Bergman-Bayard versus 38 Super Auto, just so you know which is which) before you make claims like that.

Yes the pressure specs are different but then those for the 9mm Bergman Bayard are for the older Astra M400s. The Destroyer, in case you've not noticed, is not a semi auto matic with operational limits determined by action functioning. The Destroyer is a bolt action and handles the loads I am talking about with out problems. As I've already noted twice for you, the ammo I load can not be chambered in any other weapons, specificaly handguns, chambered in .38 super. As to the rifle eventually getting into someone elses hands? It shoots standard .38 Super, .38 ACP and 9mm Bergaman Bayard now without misfiring. As to my reloads; They are plainly marked and it's not any different than having the heavier .45 Colt or 45-70 loads around. The potential for those two to get loaded into rifles or handguns they are not meant for is much greater.

So once again your assumptions are incorrect.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

My problem is getting a good sight picture to test with. I am satisfied with my loads/headspace/sizing/etc. Would prefer a peep sight as far back as possible. Looking at the reciever, and the cut thru the very top for the extractor, I would not even try to drill and tap a anything in that area. At my age, the blur is making for shotgun patterns. I don't see reciever sights for mounting on the right hand side of the action. WHat to do ??????? Solder a Williams sight on top ????? Isn't that sight made of aluminum???? NEED HELP !!!!!!!

Franklin

The top of the receiver bridge on mine is .095" thick. While seemingly thin that is still plenty to D&T with 6x48 holes. I did mine with two holes for a Williams sight base as shown. A standard Williams slide with peep works extremely well. I also took a picture of the front sight band which I filed to take an M14 front sight as I prefer that sight picture. The group behind is a 20 shot group with the 356-120-TC cast bullet over 3 gr of WST. Velocity is 955 fps. That was shot at 50 yards with the 4 moa dot placed over the bull as centered as I could. The group probably would have been better with a larger bull than the dot. With the higher powered loads I mentioned previously she groups that good at 100 yards with the peep sight.

The receiver sight works for me and is very solid.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Here are the case dimensions of the 9mm Largo, the 38 Super, and the 9x23 Winchester.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd9bergmannbaynard.jpghttp://stevespages.com/jpg/cd38superautomatic.jpghttp://stevespages.com/jpg/cd9x23winchester.jpg

It appears in the order of the fattest webs it's the 9x23 first, then Largo, and last the 38 Super.

Larry to clear things up on sizing what dies are you using first. Not brand but caliber. If they are Largo dies do you have any problems sizing the 9x23 cases down? Will the 9x23 cases fit your Destroyer without sizing first? What I'm asking, even though there are web differences between them, according to the drawings....is there really?

I'm not sure that the Largo's had different pressure ratings for different firearms. I believe the Astra's to be a newer design then the first Largos. The Astra's are also blowback, not a delayed blowback locking action. Not that you said they weren't. I'm not also sure that the Destroyers were designed initially with intentions of higher pressures either.

[miestro_jerry]

I had a Destroyer and the matching Browning style 1911 in 9mm Largo. I shot 38 Super in both with no problems.

Now I wished I had kept the Destroyer, it would make a nice little "camp carbine" around my place.

Jerry

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Larry to clear things up on sizing what dies are you using first. Not brand but caliber. 9x19, 9mm parabellum or 9mm Luger, take your pick.If they are Largo dies do you have any problems sizing the 9x23 cases down? Will the 9x23 cases fit your Destroyer without sizing first? What I'm asking, even though there are web differences between them, according to the drawings....is there really? Never tried any 9x23 cases.

The web of fired my fired .38 Super cases mic .394. That's .014 over what a sized .38 Super is supposed to be at the web. Using the 9mmP FL die to just NS the case to the base of the bullet leaves the taper on the .38 super case. A 9mmP sized case is supposed to be around .391 and the .38 Super .380. The 9mmP FL die does not size the web of the .38 Super case. I have tried the fire formed .38 super cases in a couple Colt factory .38 Super barrels (not exactly known for tight chambers) and they will not chamber.

I'm not sure that the Largo's had different pressure ratings for different firearms. I believe the Astra's to be a newer design then the first Largos. The Astra's are also blowback, not a delayed blowback locking action. Not that you said they weren't. Hard to say, I had an Astra 400 that would function fine with .38 ACP ammo but .38 Super was a little much. I didn't have any milsurp ammo back then. Midrange .38 Super loads seemed about right and are what milsurp 9mm Bergman Bayard seemed to be to be loaded to. I also had an Astra 600 in 9mmP but that's another story. Small arms of the world says the M400 would chamber and fire 9mmP just fine but with German WWII milsurp 9mmP it was about the same as shooting full .38 Super loads in mine. Functioning was poor also with the Bergman Bayard magazine.

I'm not also sure that the Destroyers were designed initially with intentions of higher pressures either. I'm not sure what the design parameters of the Destroyer were. However, it has solid double locking lugs that securely lock into the very thick portion of the receiver. It also has a rudementary "safety lug" of the bolt handle root. That's a lot more than any Astra M400 has. I carefully worked up the loads I use with appropriate powders and have had no pressure problems. I must say that Mostly the light 120 gr cast bullet over 3 gr of WST is used. Very mild load that and very accurate too.

Larry Gibson

[Franklin Zeman]

Just a picture of my "Scout" Destroyer.

Larry Gibson

Larry, how is the peep sight attached?? That would be the best place for a peep for me. Just worried about the VERY thin metal on top.

[StarMetal]

Larry, how is the peep sight attached?? That would be the best place for a peep for me. Just worried about the VERY thin metal on top.

Franklin,

Larry posted this with the pictures, you must have missed it:


Franklin

The top of the receiver bridge on mine is .095" thick. While seemingly thin that is still plenty to D&T with 6x48 holes. I did mine with two holes for a Williams sight base as shown. A standard Williams slide with peep works extremely well.

[StarMetal]

Anyone know the rifling twist on the Destroyers?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how is the peep sight attached?? That would be the best place for a peep for me. Just worried about the VERY thin metal on top.

There are two 6x48 screws that hold it on. With the receiver .095 thick at that point there are about 4 1/2 threads per hole. Doesn't sound like much but with the screws the right length and snugged up tight (not reefed on) with a drop of Loctite on them the rear sight stays put. There's not much weight to the almost all aluminum rear sight and recoil is pretty nil so enertia doesn't loosen things up. If I have any problems with it a little Accra-glass or high strength epozy will keep it on for sure. Several thousand rounds have been through mine with no sign of loosening or the holes stripping what so ever.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone know the rifling twist on the Destroyers?

The twist in the Destroyer I have is 18 7/8" (average of 3 measurements).

Larry Gibson

[Franklin Zeman]

Thanks for the reply Larry. I guess the bridge just didn't pass my eye test. I will mike it and then go forward probably. Sure will make a big difference at the range for me !!!!!!! Thanks again. Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the reply Larry. I guess the bridge just didn't pass my eye test. I will mike it and then go forward probably. Sure will make a big difference at the range for me !!!!!!! Thanks again. Frank

You're more than welcome. I found the Williams receiver sight to be the cat's meow. Unfortuneately I put the dot sight on it as a lark and let the wife shoot it. Now she thinks the rifle is hers and my job is just to keep her in ammo!

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I thought you shot some pretty good groups with that rifle Larry. Appears to shoot better then the M1 Carbine.

[Franklin Zeman]

I miked my bridge and it looks OK for trying the Williams site. Thanks again for the help. Your experience with it is enough for me. The peep site will make a big iimprovement. Have them on several other pieces.
Someone was asking about twist rate in the Destroyer, mine is marked 9 mm Bergman and has about a 20 inch twist rate.
I have been using the .38 Super cases since someone mentioned it was a good fit for replacement brass. I did no adjustments to the rifle and that brass works fine in my rig. Lots of valuable advice and experience in these threads !!!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

Franklin

The destroyers were made in varying degrees of quality at several locations in Spain. I've seen some that were very good quality and some that were worse than mine. Mine was a $49.95 Century Arms special so I got what I paid for. Obviously the tolarences are not very close on mine. I've helped several others develop loads who were able to use .38 Super cases with no problems also. Glad Yours is that way and the reciever sight will indeed help. Good luck and good shooting.

Larry Gibson