Smith K38....Masterpiece?

[David R]

I just bought a smith with a 6" full underlug barrel, partridge front sight and adjustable rear sight. It looks like it just came out of the box. Nice perfect blue. I would say Excellent condition. Pachmyer grip.

How can I tell if this is the real K38 Masterpiece?

David

[454PB]

I had one once, I believe it's a model 15.

[Dale53]

If it has a full underlug barrel, it is a MODERN K-38 (which is just fine). I have an original k-38 Masterpiece and also a MODERN K-32 (16-4 6" barrel with full underlug). My K-38 has a full length Bomar Rib and is a fine revolver. My K-32 has a scope and is also a fine revolver. Different people like different things - some think the Colt Python is the cats meow but I confess that I am a "Smith" man.

Congratulations! You will have LOTS of fun with that revolver. I have shot, literally, thousands of wadcutters in front of 2.7 Bullseye out of the K-.38 (my competition shooting with it was mostly PPC) and I wouldn't think of letting go of it.

Factory Remington target wadcutters will shoot 1/2" groups at 25 yards from the Ransom Rest. However, my own reloads wouldn't quite do that (using cast wadcutters). My best load would average 3/4" at 25 yards (which is plenty good enough, of course). I always hated it that I couldn't beat the factory stuff but Remington made good stuff:roll: .

Dale53

[StarMetal]

A Model 15 is a Combat Masterpiece and I believe only came in a 4 inch barrel. I had one at one time. It has the fully adjustible sights.

Check this site out for Models and descriptions:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Smith.Model.Changes.asp

Joe

[Wayne Dobbs]

StarMetal,

There are 2", 4" (the standard length) and a few 6" Model 15s out there. Based on David R's description of his SW, I would say it's a 14-6 or later variation. I have one of the "new" K-38 Masterpieces like that and it's a heck of a shooter. David R, you will have a great time with that revolver!

Wayne

[David R]

I think its a model 14-4, but am not sure, I looked at alot of em. I bought a Saeco 4 cavity mold with handles a while ago for this gun. Its a #50 wadcutter. Dillon 38 sp conversion is on its way, I picked up 1,000 brass a little while ago for $10.00.

I already have a model 25-7, so I know all about how nice a smith is.

This 38 seems to already have a nice trigger job both double and single action.

2.7 grains of Bullseye is the plan. I also purchased a 358429 Double cavity. Life is good.

David

[Bass Ackward]

David,

Yep. Great fun is in your future.

Mine would shoot the 358156 Thompson GC with Unique and the bullet seated out as well as wadcutters if I kept the bullets hard. I traded it for my first forray into big bore handguns, a 45 Colt.

One of the only trades I wish I had back.

[Shepherd2]

I have a K38 model 14-2 that I bought used in 1966. I got it from a 3 gun bullseye shooter that had switched to the S&W model 52. I've had this gun longer than any other I own and have never thought about selling or trading it.

The unique thing about the 14-2 is that it is single action. You have to cock the hammer to rotate the cylinder just like a Colt SAA. It also has the wide target hammer and trigger. The trigger pull, if you can call it that, is unbelievable. When you press the trigger and the hammer falls it's like the trigger never moved. There is movement but you have to really concentrate to even feel it.

I've never shot anything in it but 148 gr WCs with 2.7 grs of Bullseye. It will shred the X ring with those. A friend invited me to his range while our wives were visiting. I let him try the K38 and he shot it so well he took the target home to show his wife. When my wife learned which gun it was, she said "Oh yea, that's the one you can't miss with".

[Scrounger]

The first 1955 Smith I owned was like that. I took the side plate off and compared it to a parts diagram. There was one little part missing, that went between the hammer and trigger. I bought that part and thereafter it was typical single/double action. It's that simple if you want to make it double action capable, but I see little gain in doing it.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, the K-38 Masterpiece models.......lovely. The later-edition variants like yours have often avoided heavy usage as bullseye target pieces, due to the factor Shepherd brought up--the onset of self-loaders in 38 wadcutter for the "any centerfire" phase of the "2700 series" NRA competition. A LOT of the later K-38's have had easier service for this reason. Of course, a life of shooting wadcutters isn't the roughest existence out there, either.

Like others have said in this and other related threads, I can't get the fine accuracy of the swaged HBWC with my cast WC's either. I used Hornady HBWC's when that sort of work was planned.

My "go-to" 38 Special bullet has been the Lyman #358477 for many years, with the #358156 used once in a while. More recently, the #358429 has gotten into the act, and I really like that design in my Colt OMT.

Enjoy that K-38, sir!

[fecmech]

Dave--I've got a 14-3 with an unlugged ribbed barrel bought new back in the 70's. It went back to Smith in the 90's after about 50k rds to have the barrel turned in a thread and forcing cone recut. It is the most accurate revolver I own. It likes 3.1 Bullseye with the H&G #50 the best. I'll drop you off some H&G #39 rn to try, they shoot even better than the wadcutters for me. Nick

[beagle]

Yep...the Model 15 .38 Special 4" blue was the Combat Masterpiece and the M18 4" blue in .22 LR was known as the .22 Combat Masterpiece as opposed to K-22./beagle

[StarMetal]

Beagle,

Thanks beagle, I knew the Model 15 was the Combat Masterpiece but I wasn't going to start a pissing contest.

That part on the hammer/trigger that they remove to make some of the Model 14's single action is the sear, sometimes called the fly. Usually it use to be the only blued part on the hammer. If you have a double action you can take the side plate off and slowly cycle the action and see how the part works in the double action mode.

Joe

[David R]

Thanks a bunch guys. Sounds like I got a winner. It doesn't even have a ring aorund the cylinder from the stop......yet. I now have the 4 cavity Seaco #50, a double cavity lyman 358429 and 358156. One of the reasons I went for a 38 instead of a 357 is I want to plink and shoot accurate light loads. and NO STEENKIN GAS CHECKS.

The primer is going to be the most expensive part of the cartridge. I do shoot center fire bullseye competition but with an accurized 45. I am going to try this for it, but don't know how I will do at rapid fire. Only time will tell.

The 38 conversion kit should be here any day for my dillon. LOOK OUT!

This is also going to be my frog gun. Gotta be more fun than using a 22.

David

[Dale53]

David R;
You just mentioned frogs. I haven't hunted frogs with a handgun for YEARS! It may even be illegal around here - it's so much fun it SHOULD be illegal if it isn't. We have lots of really large bullfrogs in this area of the country. It is really HUNTING, also. You have to be a real INJUN sneaking carefully along a river bank. Frogs are easy to kill. I would typically just shoot them in the middle of the back. They were nearly always facing away from bank (towards the river). They were not terribly afraid of you if you maintained your distance (but still well within pistol range). A shot in the middle of the back paralized them and I would just pick them up and put them in a burlap bag. Of course, you had to clean them pretty quickly.

I've also waded at night for them. I got snake bit one night doing just that. Apparently, the snake was ready to grab the frog just when I did. I got the frog and the snake got me. I was a little "gun shy" for quite a while after that. Fortunately, the snake was not poisonous, just a nasty bite on the hand. Frankly, it is a bit spooky anyway but also a bit exciting.

One thing is nice - I would generally be pretty much tuckered out after wading all night. When you grab the frog you don't have to clean him immediately. So, a bag full of frogs could be done the next day.

Those were the days...

Dale53

[Scrounger]

You brought back an old memory, Dale. When I was about 10 years old in Indiana I would go out with my dad to local farm ponds and stripper pits. If it was shallow enough, we waded them and he gigged the frogs. One 'frog' he gigged turned into 4 feet of snake, cottonmouth we figured. He shook it off the gig and we beat feet getting out of there. Didn't stop us from playing that silly game in the future, though. When I got older and smarter, I wouldn't wade around in that water for all the frogs on earth.

[StarMetal]

Unless someone threw a cottonmouth in that pond, it's not from there.

Range and habitat

The eastern cottonmouth is found along the eastern coast of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) from Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia) to Alabama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama). The western cottonmouth is found as far west as central Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas), through eastern Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma), Missouri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri), as far north as southern Illinois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois), and east to Kentucky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky), Tennessee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee) and Alabama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama). The Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida) cottonmouth is found in the state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) of Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida) and southern Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28U.S._state%29). Their ranges overlap, and intergrading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid) of subspecies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies) is not known.


Joe

[Slowpoke]

One thing is nice - I would generally be pretty much tuckered out after wading all night. When you grab the frog you don't have to clean him immediately. So, a bag full of frogs could be done the next day.

Those were the days...

Dale53

Yes, they were.

Long about 1964-67 I sold a many a pair of skinned frog legs for .50, I took just as many with a fishing pole as I did with a gun.

good luck

[Buckshot]

..................DavidR, I bought a early 70's K-38 (M14-4) from a good old freind of mine, the week before he passed away. Can't shoot it without thinking of him. THis was the pistol that kind of canged my thinking about what a quality pistol can do, even in a dweebs' hands like mine.

http://www.fototime.com/C5773BB9E49798C/standard.jpg

The above is an early result with it. A load I got from somewhere. Visually inspected slugs, thrown charges.

http://www.fototime.com/AD7A895D67D7AF6/standard.jpg

This was an offhand group at 25 yards shot 10-05 during one of our Burrito Matches. The Lee 358-148 wadcutter from a 6 holer and 2.7grs of Bullseye. The slugs were tumble lubed. Nothing that a real pistol shooter would be proud of, but for me it was pretty spectacular. Five in the 10 ring and 5 way out. That's all me. The slugs go where the pistol points, so you can easily see who's at fault :-).

...................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

As good as it gets! I bought one a few years ago and it shoots like a dream. I always found 38 federal lead wadcutters shot incredibly in my 586. I haven't tried them in my K38. I must buy some and try them. If they are the go, I will buy a case when I'm cashed up and save them for serious competition. No matter how carefully I cast and loaded, I couldn't beat these suckers. They were great.

Good luck with it, ot will shoot better than you probably.

I use 142 Gn Button nosed wadcutters in front of 2.8Gn Bullseye and also with ADI AS30 (Clays in the states). I can't get the Lee Auto Disk powder throwers to throw 2.7 Gn and I ain't gonna fiddle around any othere way. No difference anyway according to my tests. In fact my mate gave me some ammo one day which had about mid 3gns of B/E and it was snappy, but shot like a dream.

Enjoy. I ain't ever going to sell mine. I might get a fancy target grip however.

[Four Fingers of Death]

As good as it gets! I bought one a few years ago and it shoots like a dream. I always found 38 federal lead wadcutters shot incredibly in my 586. I haven't tried them in my K38. I must buy some and try them. If they are the go, I will buy a case when I'm cashed up and save them for serious competition. No matter how carefully I cast and loaded, I couldn't beat these suckers. They were great.

Good luck with it, it will shoot better than you probably.

I use 142 Gn Button nosed wadcutters in front of 2.8Gn Bullseye and also with ADI AS30 (Clays in the states). I can't get the Lee Auto Disk powder throwers to throw 2.7 Gn and I ain't gonna fiddle around any othere way. No difference anyway according to my tests. In fact my mate gave me some ammo one day which had about mid 3gns of B/E in front of a semi wadcutter and it was snappy, but shot like a dream.

Enjoy. I ain't ever going to sell mine. I might get a fancy target grip however.

[txpete]

my 14-3 smith.my best load so far is the magma 148 gr wc and 3.0 grs of bullseye.
pete
http://www.hunt101.com/img/358907.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=358907&c=500&z=1)

[Char-Gar]

Can I play also? Here are some 38 Specials that followed me home. A good 38 will do 98% of what we ask a handgun to do and do it with class, accuracy and light to moderate recoil. Great sixguns all.

Smith & Wessons - top to bottom

K-38, Combat Masterpiece, Cheif's Special, 34-44 Heavy Duty, Model 64, Model 10 and Military and Police

Colts - top to bottom

Officer's Model, Detective Special, Trooper and Offical Police

[C1PNR]

Well, I don't have any Model 14s, but I do have a 15-2 and a 15-4 (I know, sounds like I'm playing cribbage, huh). Both are in 4" barrel.

The 15-2 was advertised as a LE trade in. My friend bought one the same day from the same batch that had San Diego (PD or SO) markings.

The nice one, though, is the 15-4 in nickle finish. It misses MINT only because it's wearing Pachmyar grips and has just the barest hint of finish wear on the left side of the muzzle.

EE DA HOW Long Rifles Gun Show this weekend and I'm going. Maybe I'll run into a Model 14 that I just can't live without.[smilie=1: I'll also consider a nice 19, 24, 27, or 28.:roll:

[Bucks Owin]

I don't have a K-38 but I do have a 6" M19-4 "CHP Combat Magnum" and it's a fine shooter. Never met a K-frame I didn't like....

(And I'm a S/A fan!)

Dennis

[David R]

I finally picked up the gun yesterday. I cleaned all the jacket stuff from the barrel. I did not slug the bore, but could not jam a .358 sized wadcutter into the front of the cylinder.

I started outside at 25 yards. A few turns of the screws on the sight got me in the black. I did manage to fire a nice offhand 1 1/2" 5 shot group with the wadcutters from the Saeco #50 4 bangeer. I shot 5 more and they all went low right from the first group. Shooter error. The wadcutters seem to like a full load of 231 instead of the 3.2 grains I wanted to use. The 358429 shot well too. These drop from the mold at .3575.

Next was the indoor range at 50 feet. 1" 10 shot groups were common whith all 3 loads I brought with me. This gun shoots tiny little groups if I do my part. This was with my wrists resting on a sand bag and my Merrit miricle optical helper.

Acording to the web page posted, it must be made in 1982 because it is a model 14-5. Also the last year they made that gun.

I ended up with exactly what I wanted and more. Next to my scoped TC contender I think this is my most accurate handgun. I will be trying it out at 50, 75 and 100 yards this weekend if my stuff shows up for the Dillon. I loaded the last 3 boxes on my turret press and it takes a lot of time. The press is an old Redding 25. It tilts back a few dagrees so using the Autodisk powder measure makes for inconsistant charges and I could see that looking at the primers. Even with the not perfect reloads, it shot awesome. I only tried 3.2 grains of 231 (the smallest autodisk) and 4.9 grains of 231 with the wadcutters. I also used 4.6 with the 172 grain Kieth Boolit. All shot well, but I think they could be tweaked a little more.

************************************************
A public thank you for Fecmech. I was out picking up parts and lunch. I came back to work and there was a baggie of boolits sitting on my mailbox. They are the Round nose he was talking about in this thread. Fine looking Boolits, all sized and lubed ready to be loaded.
************************************************

Sorry Nick I missed you, but thank you again. I will report on how they shoot once the dillon stuff shows up. Probably Saturday.

I am pretty sure this is the gun I will shoot the internet match with so look out fella's.

David

[txbirdman]

David,

I like 231 in the .38 Spcl also. Those loads are certainly not target variety eventhough they seem to shoot like it. That 4.7 gr. with the 358429 would be "mucho caliente".

[David R]

I picked up the gun wednesday afternoon. Shot it thursday, Friday.... Now have 450 rounds of cast through it.

First 150, I loaded and shot just to see how it would do. Some nice groups but nothing too official.

I was getting misfires quite frequently. I checked the mainspring strain screw and it was full up. I made a shim from a piece of a small glass automotive type fuse. (looks like a primer cup) This helped, no more misfires in single action, but still a couple in double action. I need a little more hammer spring tension. Today I took the revolver side plate off and lubed the heck out of it with spray Rem Oil.

Seems no matter what I did it shot low. I had the rear sight as high as it would go without the screw coming out of the T bolt in the frame. I ended up taking 50 swipes with a mill file to the front sight then colored it black with a sharpie. Now I can adjust the sights as I like.

I have tried a few powders and have more to go. The 358429 shoots great, but the seaco #50 wadcutters are not up to snuff yet. Most shooting was done at an Indoor range at 50 feet. Here is a 5 shot group with the 358429 and 3.7 grains of PROMO.

1254

I am not having such good luck wht the wadcutters. I am going to try the same charge of PROMO and a few other things like lube only one groove or all three. The 358429 drops a bit smaller than the seaco #50. I wonder if I size the wadcutter down to .357 if it will shoot as good as the group above.

The 146 grainwadcutters shoot about 1.5" lower than the 172 grain SWC. More powder seems to make the boolit shoot lower. I would like to end up so I don't have to change sights when I change boolits.

[David R]

More of the Latest.

I am getting groups with the wadcutters, nothing spactacular, but they are coming up groups. Best was 1 1/4" at 25 yards with the saeco #50, and 2 3/4" at 50 with the 358429.

The barrel is leading starting at the forcing cone. I slugged the bore last night (finally). I don't think it was a perfect slug, but as I drove it in, it got MUCH harder to drive the last little bit. Seems the barrel was crushed a little at the crush fit. If I clean the barrel really good, I can see in the rifling where the frame and barrel meet. There is a little ripple. I drove 3 slugs through it and it was the same every time. Groove seems to be .3565", at least when I drive the slug all the way through. I'm thinking fire lap, because I have no other way to help the situation.

No pics this time. Fired about 700 rounds already. This thing is a blast!

Femech stopped by work, he showed me what his 38 would do. He had some impressive 50 yard groups. He also gave me some HBWC to try. Those groups he had gave me one heck of a goal to attempt.

David

[Bucks Owin]

I picked up the gun wednesday afternoon. Shot it thursday, Friday.... Now have 450 rounds of cast through it.

First 150, I loaded and shot just to see how it would do. Some nice groups but nothing too official.

I was getting misfires quite frequently. I checked the mainspring strain screw and it was full up. I made a shim from a piece of a small glass automotive type fuse. (looks like a primer cup) This helped, no more misfires in single action, but still a couple in double action. I need a little more hammer spring tension. Today I took the revolver side plate off and lubed the heck out of it with spray Rem Oil.




I had the same problem with my Model 19-4, about 2 or 3 % of my loads wouldn't fire on the first attempt. I switched from CCI primers to Win WSP and no more problems. (AND more consistent velocity) Don't know what you are using but I find CCI primers to be on the hard side.....

FWIW,

Dennis

[StarMetal]

David R

My older model pin barrel Model 19 with four inch barrel had that same constriction where the barrel screwed into the frame. I very good gunsmith friend of mine put me on to this many years ago. He said lap it out just at that area. So that's what I did. I made a lap using an old bore brush. I marked it so I could get it back in the same rifling grooves after I took it out from casting it and to finish it off. They I put it back in and had half of it protruding into the frame window, but not pushed all the way through. I coated that exposed portion with my lapping compound and proceeded to lap out that constriction. I didn't want to fire lap as I didn't want the rest of the bore lapped. It come out beautiful and this revolver has been one of my BEST shooters ever. I will keep a cylinder full of factory hollowbase wadcutters from Speer of Hornady in one ragged hole dime size or tad under. I'd suggest the hand lap.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Loading match quality 38 Special WC loads in general and HBWC loads in particular requires special attention to get results equal to factory match loads.

1. The HBWC is long for it's weight and the HB skirt is easy to deform when seating in the case.

2. A special longer wadcutter expanding plug is required to expand the case to the necessary depth. RCBS sells this and they also are .3585 in diameter, also to help prevent deformation of the skirt when seating.

3. 38 WC/Match brass is different from regular 38 Special brass in that it has a much longer section where the case wall are thin before thickening toward the web and head.

4. Run the longer WC expanded plug into regular brass, and often the case is bulged enough to give chambering problems. This problem is especially pronounced in military brass.

5. Therefore, for best results with the HBWC loading requires the special longer and thicker expanding plug in conjunction with factory match/wad cutter brass

6. The HBWC will shade the regular WC in accuracy due to the fact the weight is forward and tends to be more stable, much like a shuttle cock.

7. Regular solid base WCs don't require, but will most often benefit from, the use of the longer/bigger expanding plug and match brass.

8. Solid base WC most often give their best accuracy at mid-rang (850 +- 50 fps) velocities. Some HBWCs will blow off the skirt and leave it in the barrel at this velocity. Speer HBWC are bad about this.

9. The accuracy of any 38 wadcutter (solid or hollow base) will pretty much go to hell past 50 yards regardless of velocity.

10) Bullseye and 231 are the powders of choice for 38 WC loads.

11) Wacutter loads are great for target, plinking and small game shooting

12) All things being equal, a good RN bullets ( still talking 38s here) will beat a WC bullet in terms of pure accuracy every time.

13) Meister makes a 38 HBWC cutter that has a thicker skirt and a .350 section toward the tip. This allows the bullet to be seated out and enter the throats of the revolver cylinders. I would prefer .356..but you get what you get. I have had very good result with these bullets over 3.5/BE for a velocity of 850 fps in the K-38. Please see the warning in No. 8 above about the use of HBWCs at mid-range velocitys.

[David R]

Bucks,

I was using CCI, but now am using winchester primers. They are better but the gun still needs a little more hammer spirng tension. It still ocassionally misfires in double action.

Starmetal,

I agree, if I fire lap it, the barrel will also be bigger after the constriction. One thing is for sure, its there. I don't quite understand how you made the lap slug thing. Did you cast a boolit on a bore brush mandril? I would prefer to only fix the problem instead of the whole barrel.

Charger, thanks for all the info.

David

[StarMetal]

David,

You take an old brush that is 38 cal. you push it down the bore so it's all inside it. You plug the one end so the lead won't run throught it, tinfoil works good there. I also would use some hard alloy like linotype as it won't wear as fast. You can warm up the barrel some with a hairdryer, then go ahead and pour your melt. Don't pour over and out of the muzzle or you will have to trim that part off the lap. Let it cool. You can just leave it in the bore to use rather then pull it out. If you pull it out, mark it before it's all the way out so you can put it back in the same position. I do this because I feel there may be differences in the grooves and lands. Then do as I described earlier, push it through so some of it sticks out the forcing cone and some remains in the bore. Put your lapping compound on it and pulling it back in and lap that frame area where the thread were crushed and raised that portion inside the bore. It will be hard to pull back and forth at first and then the lapping compound will wear it. Hopefully it will have gotten the restriction out before it wears to the point where you have to pour another fresh lapper.

Good luck and if you have question please ask them

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

David,

I wouldn't be afraid to fire lap. To me diameter isn't an issue. Pressure will reobturate any lead slug if it is soft enough for the pressure. Especially wadcutters.

Often the constriction in diameter is less problems than a variance in twist rate or land height. With a patient fire lap you get "true" perfection. With a patient hand lap, you remove the constriction, but possibly create another problem with the lands that pressure WON'T cure.

If my choices were to hand lap or leave it alone, I would leave it alone.

[David R]

Oly cow! Now what do I do? :)

[Dale53]

Chargar;
That's a good post. It certainly parallels my experience.

Good work!

Dale53

[StarMetal]

Bass,

With a hand lap you're only removing that constriction that starts about at the leade in from the forcing cone to the end of the frame, a very small amount. When that barrel metal is compressed it makes the constriction on the whole bore which meand both the lands and grooves. He's not going to be lapping nothing but that constriction. so how you get it ruins anything else? I'd say fire lapping ruins more. I feel it takes the sharpness of the corners of the rifling, both inside and outside.

I guess I ruined my Model 19 huh...geez it only shoots dime size and smaller ragged holes at indoor 50 foot ranges. Shucks, If I'd firelapped it I could have owned a revolver that truely put them all into one caliber hole literally.

Dave...they both are good. You choose the one you're more comfortable with. Bass like firelapping, I like hand lapping. Look up the pro's and con's on the google search and then make your decision. It's really not mine or Bass's to make, it's yours as to what you thinks is best.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

1. I guess I ruined my Model 19 huh...geez it only shoots dime size and smaller ragged holes at indoor 50 foot ranges. Shucks, If I'd firelapped it I could have owned a revolver that truely put them all into one caliber hole literally.

Dave...they both are good. You choose the one you're more comfortable with. Bass like firelapping, I like hand lapping. Look up the pro's and con's on the google search and then make your decision. It's really not mine or Bass's to make, it's yours as to what you thinks is best.

Joe


Joe,

1. Have you fired it since? Geez. Then I guess you fire lapped it anyway didn't you?

2. You can't recommend one form over the other without knowing what is the problem and how much has to be removed. If it's .002 or less, fire lap. If it's more, then hand lap till you get down to .002 so you don't enlarge your throats and then fire lap to correct it. But David doesn't know what his constriction is from. It could be from two rifling too close together or simply a rough spot from someone trying to hand lap it before.

David,

Cut a wooden dowel rod so that it fits in the window of your frame and comes to with in 1 1/2" of yor muzzle. Slide it in. Since you said it went freely, pound in another slug and then use the dowel to push it back out. You can clamp it with vise grips and tap on those if you need to. Then measure. See what you are working with before you decide.

[Char-Gar]

I hold the opinion that all of the worry about the constriction rings in the barrel is 'Much Ado About Nothing". Those of us who polished our barrels could see them because they were as plain as a rat turn in the sugar bowl. However it wasn't until Veral Smith started talking about them that they became a concern.

All of my Match 38s have constriction rings to one degree or another, but shoot just fine rings and all. The bullets have plenty of time to recover down the barrel from whatever damage (real or imaginary) the rings do.

Now..I am going to get posts from folks who are going to tell me how much the accuracy of their sixguns improved after laping. The improvment, if any ,is mostly due to what is between the ears than what is in the pistol barrel.

[StarMetal]

Charger,

Could say the same thing about all the special ways you described about loading 38 special wadcutter target loads. The special longer expanders, the special brass that is thinner further down, etc. All I can is I've fired groups without the special items that were probably as good. The thing about the getting rid of the contriction is because it's not suppose to be there, it's not a designed in feature, it's all about making your tool right. Apply your same thinking to other avenues...like parts on the space shuttle..."oh hell, that's close enough, it'll work just as good as a part that is on spec"......yeah...ummmhmmm sure. Colt also didn't make their Pythons with tapered bores gettting smaller towards the muzzle for their health.

Just my take on it.

Joe

[David R]

This is plain fun! I am going to try a few things, like a .357 instead of .358 sizer die. I was shooting it tonight and at 50 feet, It kicks butt offhand bullseye style. I think hand lapping would be the way to go first, then Maybe fire lap after that.

I have been shooting sporter rifle targets with it using 2 hands. I can get into the high 70s or low 80s if I am doing my part. This is all at 50 feet.

I will be shooting it for the internet match again on Saturday.

To me, lapping out the constriction only should be the way to fix it. I think fire lapping would make the whole barrel bigger. If it removes .0005 at the constriction, it might also remove .0005 after the constriction and I will have gained nothing. I have never done either before. I am NOT going to shoot 1,000 J boolits to smooze out the barrel because I only shoot cast. Not even gas checks.

SO, .357 sizer die that femech offered to loan me, then if it makes no diff, hand lap.

I will let you all know how it works.

Thanks for all the input, I needed it.

David

[StarMetal]

David,

Fire lapping effect gets less and less as it nears the muzzle because the lapping compound, for lack of better words, wears off by the time the bullet gets to the end of the barrel, especially longer barrels. You sort of end with a tappered bore.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Yes. Fire lapping, done right, only cuts where force is applied. And there are tricks like covering a lapped bullet with Alox so that it doesn't cut the throats. But with the measurements given, my guess is that we are talking around .001. That is nothing really. 12 shots with 320 grit if the lead is around 14-16 BHN. That should cut about .0005. Then smoothing with jacketed will remove another .0005. You always stop early, because you will get another .0005 as the bore burnishes in. And with fire lapping you get the benifit of alignment correction of a chamber if that isn't perfect either. Hand lapping won't do that.

People always picture this enourmous gain in throat / bore size. Or rounding of lands. I am well into triple digits and I just don't see it. If you are responsible in your thought process and monitor what you are doing. If you don't care to monitor, then you have no business lapping under any method. Everyshot down a bore is fire lapping anyway. If alignment is bad, then you get enlargement. So I still prefer to break a handgun in with jacketed as much as possible before lapping anything.

[David R]

I cleaned the heck out of it today, then made the lap. It took a few tries but I got one. I applied the abrasive and worked the rod until the brush broke out of the aluminum holder. Probably 150 strokes in the constricted area. I then fired 12 wadcutters lubed with valve grinding compound. Cleaned it really well and off to the range.

Fecmech gave me some remington HBWC to try, so I had loaded them with 3 grains of bullseye.

I fired 10 shot groups at 50 yards with iron sights and my merrit miricle optical sight thingy. First group, MY wadcutters with 3.0 Bullseye. Minute of paper. HBWC, nice group maybe 3" wide by 1.5" tall. Next 358429 again with 3.0 Bullseye. 6 shots in about 1.5" and the other 4 all over the paper. Probably 6" This gives me hope. I fired the rest of what I had, including some wadcutters ahead of 4.9 of 231 and some 358429 ahead of 4.5 231. I also shot some 25 yard offhand for the internet match. In all I fired about 150 rounds. I looked in the barrel, no leading. Amen!

A week or two ago, I fired five shot groups from each cylinder at 50 feet from a rest. Some sure shot better than others. I did this twice and the results were the same. #5 shot the smallest group by far. 2 and 4 were the biggest. I need a better way to measure the throats because I just don't seem to get an accurate reading with my dial guestamaters. If this is correct, then it explains the 6 shots in one small group and the other 4 (from cyls #2 and 4 twice) going way out there.

It figures the gun shoots the boolit I have a 2 cavity mold better than the one I have a 4 banger for. Today I broke out the bull plate lube and poured a coffee can of the 358429.......Just waiting for the group buy so I can have a kieth boolit in a 6 banger.

Daym this is fun! Been through a brick and half of small pistol primers.

David

[StarMetal]

Davidr,

Well you know what it shoots the 2 cavity bullet better the four cavity as well as me and that's because with the 2 holer there's less differences in diameters and shape of the bullet simply because there are less holes.

Did you slug your constriction area after your lap job? Is it gone.

I once had a Model 14 that shot good, but had to give the gun up because it was stolen from a police dept. Long story and I wasn't involved, just the unlucky person that bought it and had to give it back. I was compensated so no loss money wise.

I of course shot the HBWC's, but I'll tell you what else I shot lot of and that was Hornady's and Speer's 158 SWC's. I used Unique, but don't remember the load, I'm sure it as a mild one. Boy oh days did that revolver like those. I didn't have a mould for it then is the reason I was buying swaged bullets. You might try them...they are very accurate and very well made near perfect bullets.

Joe

[Dale53]

4fingermick;
>>>I can't get the Lee Auto Disk powder throwers to throw 2.7 Gn<<<

If you want to load to a specific charge of powder in the Lee Auto Disc measure (I love these, by the way) you can reduce the capacity of the cavity with a little epoxy. Doesn't take much and I have done it both with the Lee Disc's and with my shotgun loader bushings. YOu might like using a bit of finger nail polish. One advantage of the fingernail polish is that it is easy to remove. Just takes a "tad". Of course, for the bigger charges, the new Lee micrometer slide works best. I haven't checked mine out yet to see how small a charge it'll throw but it sure works nice for the larger charges.

You might try loading the solid wad cutters a little heavier than you do HBWC's. Say, 3.0-3.2 Bullseye or equivalent. The solid wad cutters seem to need a bit more "push" to reach their best accuracy.

FWIW
Dale53

[David R]

1294

The 6 shots are 1 1/2 " Just enough to tickle me to thinking it will put 10 like that. 50 yards, 3.0 Bullseye 358429 sized .358.

[StarMetal]

Davidr,

Good shooting. Looks like that lap job has helped some.

Joe

[David R]

thanks starmetal. To answer your previous question, I did not measure the slug, but did drive another boolit from muzzle to forcing cone. It still bogged down at the frame, but not like the first time when it just stopped moving. I can see plain as my hand how much the lap (fire lap) cut down in the forcing cone. Instead of the rifling stating abrubt, it tapers from nothing to full in a short distance Probably triple the distance it used to.

I slugged each cylinder and all slugs measured .356 to .357. I do not have my micrometer home, but will have tomorrow. Today I am going to shoot the same load, but 5 shot groups from each cylinder at 50 yards to see what is up.

You all have been a big help so far, I am on my way.

I had a 358 TL 6 banger way back in my stuff from when I had a 357 back in the late 80s. I poured some of those this morning, lubed them with mule snot and will be shooting them today.

I decided the wadcutter boolit just is not going to shoot in this gun. Staying with the kieth boolit and trying the TL.

David

[StarMetal]

Davidr,

For the hell of it try some Hornady HBWC's. They were deadly accurate in all 38 caliber handguns I've shot them in.

Good load is 2.7 grs of Bullseye. Don't hot load them more then that as the skirts will flare or blow off.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

David,

Since you lapped, you should expect that the area or areas that were cut would still be rough. I can't begin to tell you how much time and money you will save if you will just shoot a box of jacketed doing the shoot clean, shoot clean trick.

This is the most common mistake that fire lappers make. Expecting to compare Load "A" now. To load "A" before. You still need to close the pores of the metal. Cast will do this in about 10,000 rounds. Or maybe 100 jacketed. Then slug. You still in essence have .0005 left to remove.

[Char-Gar]

Joe et. al...... The notion that construction, need to be removed, just because they are there is not convincing to me. Constrictions have been in the breech end of barrels since the first barrel was screwed into a frame.

They were just part of a pistol, until some folks figured they could establish themselves as experts and perhaps make a little money by telling folks these construction are the devil's own handwork.

I started Bullseye pistol shooting in the late 1950s and have shoved about a half million rounds down various 38 Special match sixguns. Good scores were/are limited by the ability of the shooters and constrictions don't mean squat.

I have been shooting sixguns far too long to believe in that crap. I don't believe in the tooth fairy, little green mean or laping the constrictions our of barrels.

I am amazed how many otherwise smart people swallow shooting myths, and the stuff put out by internet gurus, pulp gun writers and folks trying to make a buck. They then spit it back out as if it was holy writ.

[454PB]

For some reason, I can't picture screwing a barrel into a frame so tightly that it actually squeezes a constriction in the barrel. I would think the frame would crack before the barrel would constrict. I've done a lot of heat shrinkage machine fitting, and when overdone, the outside (larger) piece fails before any measurable compression of the inside (smaller) piece. In the case of a barrel, if the force was enough to actually cause compression, you would think the threads in the frame would work as a wedge and split the frame.

[StarMetal]

454PB,

How about all the fellows on here that have reported barrel constriction where ever there is a dovetail slot on a leveraction barrel?? Before I get off topic the newer Smith have an entirely different barrel system then the older pinned barrel ones. After the barrel is screwed it the frame area around the barrel is then squeezed or crushed from what I understand. I've also heard that the threads are purposely mismatched.

Charger,

I didn't start the lapping out the barrel thread area constriction in this country or any country so why you picking on me about it? I do feel that the bore should at least be the same exact size from breech to muzzle...don't you? What's wrong with making it right? Why did Springfield airgauge barrel on match 03's? Why do premium top barrel makers strive to produce as perfect barrels as possible? So what's wrong with lapping out a constriction in a revolver? You going to jump on the folks here that open up the throats on cylinders that are smaller then the bore dimensions?

Joe

[454PB]

I wasn't doubting that there can be a constriction, I just don't see how it is caused by screwing the barrel into the frame. As to dovetails causing it, same question. Dovetails are machine cut, how does that constrict the barrel? If the barrel was very tightly clamped while being machined, then I could see how it happens. Seems unlikely to me that any machinist would do such a thing.

[StarMetal]

On the dovetails, might be some of it comes from tapping the sight in, they are tight you know. I'm not sure if some of the dovetails are put in by other means rather then cutting. I'm not sure too if they fellows might have said the bore is more loose at a dovetail. Maybe some others will chime in.

As for barrels I don't know if you've every rebarreled revolvers, I have, and some are very tight and I don't mean once they butt up against the frame, I mean while screwing them them in. But like I said in the other post Smith uses what they call a crush fit now.

You know when you deplace metal it has to go somewhere, so if Smith does crush that area or threads are very very tight, I can see it happening and it does.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I am amazed how many otherwise smart people swallow shooting myths, and the stuff put out by internet gurus, pulp gun writers and folks trying to make a buck. They then spit it back out as if it was holy writ.


Chargar,

I have seen the same. In fact, I have seen many misaligned handguns shoot better than they in fact should. But if I had my druthers, I would want one that is aligned. I have a line bored handgun that is pretty good dimentionally. It doesn't shoot one whit better than anything else. BUT it does shoot many things much better and is far less finicky. Almost to the point of being boring.

From my experience, any time you can improve conditions for cast, you gain .... options for softer metals, higher velocities, more powder choices. Etc.

Constrictions do throw more pressure than when they are not there. Since this occurs while the bullet is still in the throat of the cylinder, alignment forces place stresses on the handgun which can shorten it's life. Especially in calibers that operate at higher pressures. This "extra" pressure magnifies the cutting effect of the top strap over a gun that doesn't have this.

Now some of this doesn't amount to a hill of beans for accuracy improvement. Especially in lower pressure calibers like 38s. I will admit that. But anything that slows a bullet, be that bullet weight, poor lube, excess bullet diameter, or .... a constriction throws more pressure on a bullets base than it otherwise has to be. This removes loading options or overall velocity potential. Especially PB. Now is it enough to bother you? Obviously not. But it is one more obstacle to success. And maybe now you can understand why it appeals to others.

This has not been intended to change your opinion that is obviously deeply rooted. But ask yourself if you would shoot bullets that are .002 over size for your throats? They work! But they do throw more pressure and require you to use slower powders. So what is the difference between that and having a .002 constriction 1/4" farther up the pipe. The pressure is still in the cylinder?

Help any?

[Four Fingers of Death]

4fingermick;
>>>I can't get the Lee Auto Disk powder throwers to throw 2.7 Gn<<<

If you want to load to a specific charge of powder in the Lee Auto Disc measure (I love these, by the way) you can reduce the capacity of the cavity with a little epoxy. Doesn't take much and I have done it both with the Lee Disc's and with my shotgun loader bushings. YOu might like using a bit of finger nail polish. One advantage of the fingernail polish is that it is easy to remove. Just takes a "tad". Of course, for the bigger charges, the new Lee micrometer slide works best. I haven't checked mine out yet to see how small a charge it'll throw but it sure works nice for the larger charges.

You might try loading the solid wad cutters a little heavier than you do HBWC's. Say, 3.0-3.2 Bullseye or equivalent. The solid wad cutters seem to need a bit more "push" to reach their best accuracy.

FWIW
Dale53

I suppose you are right, the solid wadcutters do not obturate like the HBWCs.

I picked up a pair of used adjustable micrometer slides recently. I must give them a go. I wonder if they will adjust to 22Gns of 2400 for my 44mag so I can load 'Elmers.' :-)

PS, I have five auto disk powder throwers and love the little suckers, I have been using them for twently odd years.

I have picked up a pair of upgrade kits with the cut off powder reservior. Now that I am used to them, they are terrific and well worth the money. Great gear. I love the wa you just remove the disk and move it around or drop in another one to change loads. No fiddling around.

[Char-Gar]

Constrictions caused by sight dovetails (front and rear) can indeed be a probem as they are further down the barrel. Constrictions under the front sight dovetail can cause a serious degrade in accuracy.

The dovetail hickies seam to come from dovetails cut with a broach. The broach removedsall of the metal in one pass. Dovetails cut with a mill don't seem to cause problems.

Look at the bottom of the dovetail and you can tell which method was used to cut it. A broach cut will have all of the tool marks going the same direction in more or less straight lines, 90 degrees to the bore. Mill cut will have the telltale circular tool marks.

Bass...I don't disagree with the notion that improving the firearm is something we all like to do. Sometimes if produced noticable improvement and sometimes it does not.

Over the years, I have noticed all sort of firearms fads come and go. One of the current fads is for folks to get all spun up over barrel constrictions in sixgun barrels and folks who dont know any better think, these just must be removed for the sixgun to be worth anything in terms of accuracy.

They seem to think, sixgun accuracy began with Vernal Smith. When he peaked down a barrel and said 'oh my gawd!' sixgun accuracy was born.

I will admit to being a bit peeveish at times and I am an iconoclast by nature. I have an inherent dislike for people who act like sheep and lemings. So many folks can be lead around by the nose and bite on any piece of crap trolled in front of them.

If a man want to shove abrasive compound his pistol barrel, it is no business of mine. But I adhere to the addage "If it ain't broke- don't fix it". 99% of the times, having constrictions in the breech end of a sixgun barrel does not equal "being broke".

[StarMetal]

Charger,

I hope you weren't referring to me as someone that could be led around like a sheep and leming because nothing could be further from the truth about me.

ONE of my motto's is if it isn't built right...build it right..or make it right. A bore is suppose to be the same demensions all the way through and that includes where the barrel threads into the frame. I don't care what you, Veral, Elmer Kieth, Josep Stalin, Bin Ladin, or anyone cares...I'm removing a constriction in my bore at the frame junction. So you take a revolver with a constriction, I prefer one that does not.

Joe
P.S. I don't read Veral and have none of his books.

[felix]

Joe, the best barrels have a constriction, a very gradual one sloping towards the muzzle. Uniform barrels will begin to shoot better with age, and not right off the bat. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I know that, thoses are premium barrels, match barrels. That's nitpicking Felix...you know very well what I meant. Edited this in: If you look a few posts ahead you'll see where I mentioned Colt Pythons having a tappered bore such as you mentioned.....at one time or another.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Joe...I was not thinking of you when the image of nose rings and Lemings came to my mind. Nothing of the kind...you are far to ornery and cantakerous to be lead or pushed. You would need to be tied and carried. :-)

[StarMetal]

Charger,

Thanks...I think [smilie=l: I'm glad you and I along and understand one another. You Charger I don't for one second doubt that you have done some good shooting with constrictions in your bore. You probably think, geez, ole Joe sure is a stickler for having everything right on his revolver. The fact is NOPE!!! I'll tell you one I don't do. I don't size the bullet to the cylinder throat size...and guess what? Like you I've enjoyed some excellent accuracy. I also often don't fit rifle bullets to their throat size either...again very good results. But that constriction in the revolver barrel at the thread/frame area just bothers me.

Thanks for being an understanding friend.

Joe

[David R]

OK, Here is the latest.

First, the gun shoots fine. I need to smooze out the barrel some more, but I can get some good groups with it the way it is.

I got a little too involved with this project. I shot 1600 rounds in 3 weeks. I had to put the thing down for a few days and start again with a clear head.

I borrowed a .357 sizer die from Fecmech. This guy is cool. I took it home and sized some wadcutters. The .357 wadcutters would not go through the cylinder with out a bunch of persuasion (can't speel). SO, I finally brought my mike home from work and measured the slugs I had driven through the cylinder. They were from .3555 to .3565. This explains why I was getting groups from each cylinder in different places on the target. I made up a piolet and used some 320 wet or dry with a drill. I honed out the the throats until a .357 wadcutter would pass through and a .358 one would not witout some hard pushing. Problem resolved.

Note: I would recomend finer sand paper is anyone else does this. It didn't take long at all to open em up.

Lead is now the problem. If the forcing cone has a little bit of lead in it, the gun shoots off. I started cleaning every 5 rounds with a bore brush and groups improved a lot. I did buy a box of 100 150 grain heathen boolits to help smooze the barrel.

I loaded up some kieth boolits with 3.0 of WW 231. Went to the 50 foot indoor range and shot a nice little group of 10 like the picture in a previous post. I then shot 10 more in the same group, only a small increase in group size. I then fired the whole box of 50 through the same hole. NOW THIS IS FUN! I had a 50 shot group in one 1 1/4" hole. Leading was almost none. I have a load to shoot frogs and play with just like I wanted in the first place. For the wadcutters, I lubed 3 grooves and loaded 3.0 WW231. Still leads the barrel. I give up on them for now. They just aint gonna shoot in this gun.

I also loaded some 358156 sized to .358 with 4.7 of WW231. These are shooting around 3" at 50 yards. So are the heathen boolits. The Kieth boolits with 3.0 WW231 don't shoot quite as well, I think they run out of steam by 50 yards. Once the barrel is smoother and doesn't lead, I think I can jack up the loads and will be home free.

Bassakwards, you were right, and I ordered another 500 heathen boolits from Dillon when I got my upgrade for the 450 to a 550. I was also thinking of lubing some boolits with JB bore cleaner to help speed up the final process. Has anyone done this? I think the valve grinding compound was a little course for the application.

Bottom line, the gun shoots great, especially off hand. I have shot some nice double action groups at 25 yards. Total 2000 rounds in one month. What a blast!

Frog season starts June 16 here. Don't forget, I live in the Alabama swamps.

Thanks for all the help
David

[Four Fingers of Death]

With pistols, rifles and other things I generally see if they work ok and then if they do I 'sleeve em', that is I 'sleeve em alone!'

With casting I alway tumble lube and shoot them first without sizing. If this works and it generally does, I also 'sleeve' them.

make life whole lot simpler.

I have found generally that as long as there is some constriction at the front, all seems to work ok.

[Bass Ackward]

I was also thinking of lubing some boolits with JB bore cleaner to help speed up the final process. Has anyone done this? I think the valve grinding compound was a little course for the application.


David,

Yep. Valve grinding compound was a little .... rough. So when the bore smooths it will enlarge another .005 to .008 in that area.

Yes on the jb paste. The easiest way to use it is to melt some of what ever kind of lube you are using and mix some JB paste in with it. Then pan lube what you want. Or you can buy some 600 grit from Midway and just roll lubed bullets in it. I like the grit in the lube because it polishes the vertical portions of the rifling better.

[David R]

Thanks Mr. Bass. the roughest spot is right at the forcing cone and just after which happens to have been the tight spot.

4fingermic, Thanks for reminding me, it shoots LEE TL158 quite well. Not up to the accuracy of the 358429, but good for a plinker coming from a 6 banger mold. These will be "burn em up loads".

Thanks everyone
David