357 load not performing.

[hammerhead357]

I have been puttering around with a 357 Handi rifle and haven't had much luck with getting accurate loads until recently. I loaded 11.5 grs. of H-110 behind a 203 gr. SAECO num. 351 PB boolit pan lubed with LBT and then base dipped with LLA. Primers are CCI sp mag.

I am getting pretty good groups at 50 yds. but I am seeing some inconsistant ignition and getting fliers about every 4th or 5th shot. The report of the inconsist rounds is quite a bit quietier than the others and the cases are sooty. The boolit impact is about 2 in. lower at 50 yds. than the rest of the boolits.

Any ideas about what is going on? The cases are crimped well and there seems to be good neck tension. Do I just need to start working up slowly with the powder charge weight?

Any help would be greatly appriciated...Wes

[lurch]

Could be wrong, but the symptoms you describe do sound like inconsistent ignition and/or poor burning in some rounds (sooty cases, off report). I'm away from all my normal data sources, but Hodgdon's web site does not list any H110 data for a bullet this heavy in the 357. They do list 13.0 to 13.5 grains as the load range for a 180gr jacketed bullet (Nosler Partition). Given that, I'd guesstimate you are in the right ballpark for the 203 gr. SAECO. Given that you are already using a magnum cap, I would look carefully for any pressure signs in the rounds that fire "normally" and if they ALL look OK, I might try sneaking up a little on the charge - assuming there is adequate case volume under the boolit to accommodate it. Since you would be in uncharted territory, the word is CAUTION. Any hint of pressure extremes - STOP and re-think.

Just for grins, you might also try using a standard force primer. If by chance the bullet is getting pushed into the bore a bit by the magnum cap before the powder gets started good, the powder will "see" an increased case volume and could possibly result in the symptoms you have.

The cause could also be inconsistent strikes on the primer. Do you have access to a chronograph? If so, do other loads exhibit strange variations in velocity - a weak showing now and then? That might point to mechanical problems with the rifle.

Take all this with a grain of salt. I have been reloading for a good while, but have not tried what you are doing. As such, I'm shooting from the hip a bit, but that's what I'd try. Others will probably have more sage advice.

[HeavyMetal]

I'm going to suspect your Handi rifle might not have enough snap to fire those CCI mag primers.

I realize that Primers are a hot commodity right noe but I would suggest you beg borrow or steal some Federal pistol primers for that 357 load!

Consensus is the Federals are easist to ignite so if your handi rifle has a weak spring that will fix it for a short time.

Consider it a diagnostic tool: if a switch to federal's cures the problem switch the spring out for a new one. BY the way does the handi rifle keep the main spring under tension constantly?

I have a couple shotguns that have to relieve the main spring pressure on before I put them up or the springs go bad, or in my case break, so keep in mind this may also be the cause of the problem!

[rhead]

Make sure that you are getting a good follow through with the trigger pull. Failure to do so will give an inconistant hammer strike with the Handi rifle. If it isn't that try easing forward with the powder charge or maybe a different powder. My handi rifle likes 2400 and unique at around 90-95% max.
If you haven't already done it try a rubber washer as a vibration damper in the forend screw.

[armyrat1970]

How are you dropping your charge? Are you running your loads through a Chrony? CCI primers are very good. My Lee manual list 11.5grs of H110 as a max for the 200gr lead bullet so it seems your charge is plenty hot enough if it is consistently dropped.
I don't know. It seems to me if all hits are firing, the primers are doing their job.
If some of your cases are showing signs of soot around the case mouth it seems like a weak charge and not allowing the case to fully expand in the chamber.
Do you have anyway to double check the dropped charge?

[badgeredd]

Armyrat has a good point. I would guess that the charge isn't consistent too. I'd also try a different powder or another half grain or so of the H110. The sooting of the cartridge case seems to indicate a low charge so the charge weight inconsistency would be my first guess. My second guess would be inconsistent crimp. H11o likes a heavy crimp and near full load charges with a heavy boolit.

Edd

[hammerhead357]

I am loading on a Hornady L-N-L progressive. I have never had any problems before but anything is possible so maybe I will just load about 20 on one of my single stage loaders and use a regular powder measure to see if this is the problem. If not then I will try a differnet primer.
I have never had an ignition problem with any other loads in this rifle and the crimp is nice and full and the neck tension is good also. I also have a rubber washer under the barrel. So I now have a couple of things to try. Thanks to all who have responded with advice...Wes

[Doc Highwall]

Inconsistent crimp can cause that also in a single shot. I would seat the boolits so they touch the rifling or even into rifling and not crimp to get a consistent start pressure.

[243winxb]

I am seeing some inconsistant ignition and getting fliers about every 4th or 5th shot. The report of the inconsist rounds is quite a bit quietier than the others and the cases are sooty. The boolit impact is about 2 in. lower at 50 yds. than the rest of the boolits. The inconsist rounds have an undersize bullet, to small in diameter. It is not building pressure as the other good rounds, is my guess.

[hammerhead357]

Doc if these were just for me to use I would try what you suggest but my 13 year old uses these and he might load and unload the rifle 10 or more times before he fires a shot. So I think I will have to stick to the crimped loads. Oh yes he will carry the rounds around in his pockets for days at a time it seems like.LOL...Wes

[44man]

That load is too light for any small primer.
I have information for a TC contender in 357 for a 200 gr Sierra JACKETED rifle bullet.
It shows 15.5 to 16.5 gr of 296.
Do not jump to these loads. Work up 1/2 gr at a time with small test batches until your problem goes away. It will be close to 100% case capacity.
Be careful and watch for any sticky cases but I am sure you will solve it with just a small addition of powder. I do not know how strong that rifle is but you are more dangerous with the light load.

[hammerhead357]

44man thanks I didn't have anything to work with as far as loads go for this one. I will try your info as soon as I can. I will start working up from where I am. I think the Handi will handle a lot more than what the Lee manual had listed for 357 info. They wouldn't have a clue about Handi rifles I don't think....Wes

[NHlever]

That load was a favorite of my brother-in-law behind a 158 gr. cast boolit, and it was very accurate in his Blackhawk. With that being said, it is doubtful that you need to increase the powder charge, and I would be reluctant to do it without published data. I would more likely suspect that:
1: Some primers are not being seated fully
2: The bullet alloy is soft enough that the cases are actually sizing some of them down (I've never expanded a bunch of cases, and had them all feel the same)
3: Inconsistant ignition from light hammer fall.

[243winxb]

Be very careful when working up using these powders. A 1/2 gr increase can suddenly go to over pressure. IMO. Have a look at Hodgdon load data for 158gr Hornady XTP. The pressures are very low to start. With just an increase of 1.7 gr. the pressure is maxed out. From 28,600cup@15.0gr to 40,700cup@16.7gr. The same is true in 44 magnum and other calibers. Plus there is the Old warning "Do not reduce powder charge using ww296, follow recipe" Alliant 2400 is a better powder for the 357 mag. IMO.

[44man]

That load was a favorite of my brother-in-law behind a 158 gr. cast boolit, and it was very accurate in his Blackhawk. With that being said, it is doubtful that you need to increase the powder charge, and I would be reluctant to do it without published data. I would more likely suspect that:
1: Some primers are not being seated fully
2: The bullet alloy is soft enough that the cases are actually sizing some of them down (I've never expanded a bunch of cases, and had them all feel the same)
3: Inconsistant ignition from light hammer fall.
Yes, all of these should be looked into and could be a cause.
Ignition like he is getting is a common problem with H110 and 296 in the .454 too because of the small primer. In fact starting loads will not even light and boolits stay in the barrel. As powder is increased, they all fire but with fliers and different sound. Then when max is reached everything works.
If everything that you list checks out, I am betting 1/2 gr more powder will fix it.
That powder needs a lot of heat but with low primer pressure. Chances are good the boolit is being moved ahead by the primer before ignition and will depend on how the rifle is throated as to how much it can move. It takes very little movement to change the case capacity. For some reason just adding more powder cures it.
But Wes never said what alloy he uses and he could very well be sizing the boolits when seating, ruining vital case tension needed with these powders. A crimp is also needed but it does not have to be over done, just a normal crimp.
Is Wes mixing brass? That can throw case tension out the window. Believe it or not, a case that holds looser needs MORE powder with H110.
If he feels different pressure when seating each boolit, some going in easy and others tight, he needs to do more work or change powder.
Even the expander on his die set can cause this problem and is why I use Hornady dies, they work better.
Yes, lots of reasons but I can't say about the rifle because I never had one in my hands and have no idea what the hammer fall is or what the firing pin looks like. The firing pin might be too fat for the small primers. (VERY COMMON.) Do they use the same firing pin for all calibers?
I would say Wes needs to investigate all we have said and get back to us.
Another thing that concerns me is he said he "base dips" his boolits in Alox. :confused: Is there lube on the bases? Is it ruining powder?
We can go on but still need every bit of info he can come up with.

[Junior1942]

When 44man speaks, you ought to listen.

[Rocky Raab]

I also agree with 44man.

In my opinion, H110 is a decidedly poor choice for cast bullet loads. Direct from Hodgdon/WW, it requires near-maximum charges, very hot primers, and heavy crimp/bullet pull to burn properly. H110/W206 also has the nasty propensity to produce dangerous pressure spikes when ANY of the above are absent.

I'd cease using that load immediately. There are several much better -and safer- powders for this kind of load.

[runfiverun]

that alox on the base of the boolit can't be helping your powder none.

[softpoint]

I've gotten good results with H110 with heavy cast bullets in .44mag, but ONLY with maximum loads. Anything less than full throttle, 2400 worked better. And, 2400 worked good at full throttle also.

[krag35]

If you have the chance, give Blue Dot a try, works good with cast boolits. Much more forgiving than H-110.

[Nora]

Food for thought....
Speer offers a 200gr Silhouette TMJ for .357 mag. The load data according to their manual (#13) has a listing for H110 between 13.5 gn - 1371 fps and 14.5 gn - 1392 fps with a CCI mag primer. Test firearm used was a T/C Contender 10".

[leadman]

I helped a friend with a similar problem some time back. He was having tumbling media stick to the insides of some cases and finding its way to the flash hole. He was loading on a Lee Turret press. Was not as consistent as what you are seeing though.
If you can get some LiL' Gun this would be a powder to try. Excellent in the 357 and 41. Much better then 110 or 296. For loads towards the top end I prefer it to the new Blue Dot as well.
I'm using LiL'Gun with 180 gr. Saeco RFN in several of my 357, including a Marlin. Great velocity, lower pressure than 110/296, fantastic accuracy.
Pressure builds progressively as far as I can tell.

[303Guy]

I was waiting for someone to suggest Lil'Gun! I wasn't as I haven't used it a 357 mag but it is amazing in a hornet. I use it for reduced loads in my 303 Brit too. It too needs enough 'back pressure' meaning heavy boolit or good crimp and enough of it. In the 303 Brit, with lots of free space in the case, it burns just fine at low pressure.

[jdgabbard]

I've had good results with 110 in the 357. However I'm planning on using some 2400 to see if I can get a bit better groups. Do you still use a mag primer with 2400?

[NHlever]

Food for thought....
Speer offers a 200gr Silhouette TMJ for .357 mag. The load data according to their manual (#13) has a listing for H110 between 13.5 gn - 1371 fps and 14.5 gn - 1392 fps with a CCI mag primer. Test firearm used was a T/C Contender 10".

Make sure you read the "Tech Notes" that go along with those loads in the Speer manual. If I remember right there are some specific seating depths, etc.

[Nora]

Make sure you read the "Tech Notes" that go along with those loads in the Speer manual. If I remember right there are some specific seating depths, etc.

I didn't bother to add that as the OP was talking about using it in a Handy Rifle and shouldn't be of concern. However sense you did bring up perhaps it should be clarified after all. Thanks NHlever.

Speer saids:
"The two bullets (180 gr & 200 gr) were not originally designed for revolver use. They were developed for single-shot target pistols such as the Thompson/Center Contender, which aren't too fussy about cartridge overall length. Normal seating of these bullets produce a COL of 1.680", well over the 357 Magnum's maximum cartridge length of 1.590". Contender barrels usually have generous throats and this length poses no problems in them. Revolvers are another story."

[hammerhead357]

I guess I should have explained. The alloy is WW + 2% tin and is air cooled and the cases are all new W.W. and have been trimmed to the same length before starting this. The alox was wiped off of the base of the boolits and just left on the sides of it.
I have loaded up some more of the same load in a single stage loader to try but have been to busy at work this week to try them out. I will try to post the results when I get a chance to shoot them.
I also think I will try to increase the powder charge a little as 44man suggests. I have learned to take what Jr. says to heart. "When 44man speaks you ought to listen" .....Wes

[tiny]

if you are using the lee factory crimp die it may be messing you up. i only use the lee factory crimp die in rifle calibers only. also the h110 does seem a little light. but go easy, i like winchester standard primers and then federal. i like starline brass and then winchester brass, and finally lbt blue soft lube. hope it goes well tiny

[hammerhead357]

tiny, I am not using a lee fc die just the RCBS set. I will try upping the powder charge some the next time I get to work with this. Thanks to everyone for your input....I will try to post some results when I have time to work with this some more....Wes