Did I charge that case? An easy way to tell

[JCherry]

I was surfing some of the other gun forums and came on this which does work. I found it in the Handloading and Reloading section of The Firing Line forum posted by "Jbar4Ranch". I've copied and pasted his entire post below.


"Did I charge that case? Here's an easy way to tell.

I reinvented the hearing horn of yesteryear, and adapted it to reloading. No one else on several other boards has stumbled across this simple procedure either, so here ya go.

I've been experimenting with loading .44-40's on my 550, and since Dillon doesn't make .44-40 dies, I had to use a Lee die set and a spare RCBS crimp die. I haven't rigged a Dillon powder measure yet, because I'm experimenting with both smokeless and APP loads for CAS, so I've got an RCBS Little Dandy on the Lee belling die.

The problem is that I didn't always remember the extra step of stopping on the upstroke at that die and turning the Little Dandy drum to charge the case. I caught myself about a half dozen times the first hundred rounds and really started second guessing myself about the rest when I was done. So I says to myself, "There's got to be an easy way to check the cases for a charge without breaking them all down." I couldn't hear the powder when I shook the cases (4.2 Clays w/215 gr bullet), so I tried my two electronic guitar tuners, but the clamp-on pickups couldn't hear anything either. Clays must be in the wrong key.

So I'm sittin' there a'thinkin' and see my 3 plastic powder funnels laying there... I picked one up, inserted the bullet end of the cartridge into the end of it, held it in securely with my index finger, gave it a little shake up close to my ear, and I'll be damned! I could hear the powder moving back and forth just as clear as a bell!

All but one that is... I stuck that one in my RCBS kinetic puller, gave it a whack, and... no powder! The poor man's stethoscope works! It doesn't seem to make any difference if you use the bullet end or the base end, as long as it's in firm contact with the funnel, you can hear it just as well either way, and I'm sure, with practice, you could probably also hear a difference if you had one that was double charged.

Now, of course it isn't going to work with a full case or a compressed charge, but that isn't a problem as I can easily see the powder, or rather lack of it, when I turn the shell plate, nor is it something you'd do with every single case you reload. I just had reason to suspect a squib or two in a hundred rounds I was developing a loading protocol for, and found an easy way to check it rather than break them all down. Weighing isn't reliable either, as detecting a variance of 4.2 grains is virtually impossible with the differences in weight from case to case and cast bullet to cast bullet."


Have Fun,

JCherry

[Bullshop]

Why dont ya just weigh it? If ya have one that ya know is charged weigh it. If the one in question weighs less by the ammount of powder your throwing it aint charged. Nuttin smart about that, just horse sence.
BIC/BS

[35 Whelen]

I'm with you, Bullshop. I weigh mine. Did it just tonight. Loading 18 grs. of Sr4759 in my 303, it's easy to drop the loaded rounds on a digital scale and check them. Also, if you use a filler and you meter the filler, it's a no-brainer.
35W

[Lee]

Thanks, JCherry, I'll hafta try that one.

I also load some cases with 4-5 grains of powder. Ran into the same problem you mentioned. Found that the variation case to case and bullet to bullet could easily mask the 4-5 grain powder charge. Particularly when ya reload range brass, and find evrything from S&B to Winchester to Peters to Hornady to etc...etc....Lee:)

[BruceB]

JC, pard;

I'm with Bullshop on this question.

My method of loading (for most cartridges, except big batches on the Dillon 550) sees me completely processing each individual case from empty to loaded on a turret press, usually without leaving the shellholder until the cartridge is finished. The rounds are then placed directly into a 50-round box, in the order in which they were loaded.

If I suspect a missing powder charge (very seldom, loading as I do) I weigh the preceding five rounds for an average, and then weigh the questionable round. Even in using rather small charges of powder in pistol calibers, there's no way my variation from cartridge to cartridge will be as great as the missing powder charge.

My bullet weight variation is typically around one grain or so in 200-grain boolits, less in lighter boolits, and the brass weight in small cartridges like 9x19 or .38 Special is also quite consistent. In larger (rifle) cases, the charge is also a lot larger...about 20 grains is as light as most of my rifle rounds ever use. 20 grains is MUCH more than the normal total variation of the boolit+case combined weight.

I gotta admit that your method is ingenious, though. If it works for you, why not???

Edit: (Lee posted his reply while I was "composing", and all I'd recommend in response is that it's not a bad idea to sort brass by headstamp.)

[David R]

I Just got a used dillon450 last week. Been loading like crazy. when I started loading '06 with 13.5 grains of Red Dot, I had to do something to make sure the case was charged, so I dripped a small wood dowel in every case. A few were not because I am still new with this press. It added a step to the process, but I can fire them and know they are good reloads. I also didn't know how the red dot would flow through the measure and die. I have had bridging before.

Checked into a dillon powder check die, only :) $62.95 :) . I tried to set up a light so I can see in the case. 46 grains of WC860 is easy to see in the 308 case. I Still need a better way to check the lighter rifle loads.

Maybe I could use an old die and put a plunger in it, so when the case is up, I can see how far up the rod is.

David

[Char-Gar]

I never...NEVAAAA...place a bullet on a charged case unless I had looked inside of that case with a flashlight.

Yep..I know this excludes progressive presses and techniques that won't allow this...but this is an iron clad rule at my bench.

[versifier]

Me, too, but I have a desk lamp with a high intensity bulb. Every case gets checked as it sits in a loading block. I don't find a problem very often, but every once in a while.... One reason that I have never gone to progressive presses is that I load mostly rifle cases with extruded powders and my "anti-bridging" technique (multiple taps with the powder measure's charging handle) wouldn't work on one. I'd rather spend the extra time at the bench on a single stage press, but if I were loading a lot more handgun than rifle cases, I wouldn't be opposed to the use of a progressive. I do like the "listen to your case" idea, though, and even if I don't hear very well it sounds like a workable and practical solution. I think a stethoscope might work even better than the "powder funnel ear trumpet", but a good idea is a good idea and should be acknowledged.

[JCherry]

The point about weighing the loaded round also came up on the original thread started by Jbar4Ranch. This was his response.

" Cast bullet weight can easily vary by up to 2% due to changes in alloy, casting temperature, slightly different size cavities, etc. Case weights can also easily vary by a couple grains or more, even within the same lot from the same manufacturer.

Now, if I were loading .44 mags with 22 grains of 2400 or somesuch, weighing would probably work, but weighing finished cartridges with 2.7 grains of Bullseye, or, in my case, 4.2 grains of Clays, isn't going to tell you much.

Lets say my average cast bullet weight is 215 grains with a variance of plus or minus two grains, and my average case weight is 91 grains with a variance of plus or minus two grains. I get a combination of a heavy case and a heavy bullet and an empty cartridge weighs the same as a charged one. "

Have Fun,

JCherry

[lovedogs]

I'm one of the old-fashioned guys, too. I look in every case under good light. I
n-e-v-e-r load in a hurry. Guess I've seen too many of the other guys with bullets stuck in their bbls. and blown up guns. It's made me extremely careful. I still have great love for all my fingers and eye balls. I'll never go progressive.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=JCherry] "The point about weighing the loaded round also came up on the original thread started by Jbar4Ranch. This was his response.

" Cast bullet weight can easily vary by up to 2% due to changes in alloy, casting temperature, slightly different size cavities, etc. Case weights can also easily vary by a couple grains or more, even within the same lot from the same manufacturer."

JC, I hate to tell you this, but those figures are BS if one uses bullets from the same production run. TWO PERCENT? Four grains variation, in a 200-grain boolit?
Not in my shop! After reading your latest post, I went out to my 'factory' and took ten 358156 bullets, sized, lubed, and gaschecked, and weighed them. The heaviest was 159.1 grains, and the lightest was 158.1 grains. The spread was one grain.

I also weighed ten Winchester .38 Special cases of varying ages, and found the lightest case was 67.2 grains and the heaviest was 67.8 grains.

If we combine the lightest case-and-bullet, and the heaviest case-and-bullet, we come up with total weights of 225.3 for the lightest combo, and 226.9 for the heaviest pairing. This is only a spread of 1.6 grains, and that's sufficiently different from the 2.7-grain charge weight to give me ample reason to suspect any round weighing less than 224.2 grains (subtracting 2.7 from the heaviest pair, which weighed 226.9).

".... in my case, 4.2 grains of Clays, isn't going to tell you much. "

It would be even more apparent with your 4.2 charge than the .38's 2.7 grains.

"Lets say my average cast bullet weight is 215 grains with a variance of plus or minus two grains, and my average case weight is 91 grains with a variance of plus or minus two grains. I get a combination of a heavy case and a heavy bullet and an empty cartridge weighs the same as a charged one. "

Allowing an EIGHT-GRAIN spread in the finished ammo would certainly bring weighing of the rounds into question as a way of finding the powderless rounds. I thought you had a good point about the light charges such as 2.7 grains, so I went out back again to weigh some loaded rounds.

Nearest I could find was some .38 wadcutters loaded with 3.1 grains of #231, and ten rounds showed a minimum weight of 216.4 and a max weight of 217.7, for a spread of 1.3 grains. Ten rounds of .41 Magnum (RCBS 217 SWC, 17.5 #2400) gave a max weight of 344.5 and minimum weight of 342.6, for 1.9 grains' spread.

For my purposes, and for my components, weighing still works well if a question exists re: powder/no powder in a loaded round. Again, an important factor is using brass with the same headstamp, but this is easy to do.

[Bullshop]

Regardless of any variation in boolit weight or case weight if I had a loaded round that weighed less than the average by or very close to the ammount of the charge I would pull that one. That way you would learn two things. One is weather it was charged or not, and two is if it was charged you may want to eather cull that boolit or segregate that case from the group for being too far off the average.
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

This thread is more fuel for my thoughts. With all the things that can go wrong doing them one at a time,how can you possibly not have something slip by when doing them with a progressive?

[NVcurmudgeon]

I load all rifle cartridges on a single stage press, as well as pistol cartridges that are loaded in 100 round or smaller lots. All of the above are checked with a flashlight before seating bullets. When loading large lots of .44 Magnum or .45 ACP ammmunition, I load them on a Dillon Square Deal, which features automatic indexing. I know all to well my tendency to wool gathering, so avoid prgressives that do not automatically index. A skipped powder charge is only a mild irritation, but a double........?

[BruceB]

Gentlemen;

As mentioned, I load large runs of cartridges on my Dillon 550, which does NOT have the auto-indexing feature. This includes most handgun cartridges, as well as some rifle loads in .30-06, 7.62 Nato, and a few others.

Safe operation is pretty much assured if one adopts a very few basic precautions. The most important one in my book, is this: anytime a snag occurs, or production must be stopped for any reason, REMOVE THE CASE FROM THE POWDER-MEASURING POSITION! This is easy to do, by simply lifting out the locating "button" and sliding the case out of the press.

Whether or not there is powder in the case is immaterial. REMOVE it from the possibility of receiving a double charge, and no danger exists.

Then, correct whatever problem caused the stoppage, and carry on. I usually finish loading the cases still in the press, and then start anew with the case I removed from the "powder" position. If it has been charged, I place it at the bullet-seating station, then move it to crimping, and then out of the press. If it has not been charged, naturally I replace it under the measure, and add a fired case at the sizer.

I also rigged a light to shine into the cases in the press from above. It's possible to see a .38 target charge in the case if one looks, and anything else is pretty simple. The ONLY rifle powders I'll use in the 550 are the ball-types, due to their free-flowing characteristics. After over ten years with the 550 and untold thousands of rounds, I have yet to double-charge a case, and I intend to stay very wary indeed on that score.

The most-important safety procedure is simply to THINK about what you're doing, and to exercise caution when firing-up the machine again.

If using a non-ball type of powder, I load on the turret press, where again, I have a good light handy to peer into the case. I usually do a visual powder check on every case for full-power loads, sliding the case out just far enough for a fast look into the mouth before seating the bullet. If adding dacron, I can actually feel the powder with the instrument used for pushing the fluffy stuff into the case, and that's quite a positive check as well.

My loads never reach a loading block for case-to-case comparison of powder levels, because they're fully loaded when they leave the press and go directly to the cartrdge box. This has never caused a problem for me in the forty years (!) I've used this same turret press.

[Char-Gar]

About 10 years ago, I bought a Dillon Square D to load 45 ACP and 38 Specials. I found a couple of things I didn't like...

1. The pressure need to seat a primer well was more than I liked.

2. When you mess up and forget something, you have to pull all those buttons, remove partialy loaded rounds, often times blow powder out of the gizmo and start start over.

3. When you kept your eye on the ball things worked sorta OK, but I always had to go back and hand seat a few high primers. Always makes me nervous seating primers on a loaded round.

4. I had a no charge or two, but I always caught if before another round was fired.

THEN CAME THE DAY..... When I touched off a round in my 1947 Colt Officer's Model 38 spl. The load caused the pistol to twist and buck in my hand. Now what 5.5/AA5/158 gr. cast RN was supposed to do. It felt like a full snort .357 Magnum plus a little.

I opened the cylinder and found two unfired round, three fired cases that looked OK and one fired case that had a VERY flat primer. It took a rap on the ejector rod tip with a stick to get that case out. An obvious over charge, probably a double charge.

Before you say it..Yes..it was obvious operator error..but those darn things are too complex for this simple minded fellow..requires more protracted concentration that I posses.

There was no damage done to me or the pistola, but I never loaded another round on that Square D again. I sold it and used the proceeds to buy a Redding turrent press for handgun ammo. Even then I charge each case off the press and check the loading block with a light.

I am not involved in any of the shooting games that require a high volumn of ammo. I also enjoy loading...Soooooooo.. thus endeth my brief time with a progressive loading press...no Sir!..not none of me..never again!

I have a friend who blew up two 1911s on the same day (His and his shooting buddy) with 45 ACP ammo loaded on a Dillon progressive. Same batch of ammo. No Sir! not none of me..never again!

Lordy..I can hear the Dillon lovers start to howl now... Almost as loud as the Leeaphiles when you call Lee stuff ***.

[David R]

With the Dillon, I can SEE the charge in the pistol case. For the ones I can't (rifle cases), I check with a stick. I have a plan for a powder check die so I can watch it every pull of the lever. Just a rod in a die with an adjustment on top. I will be able to see no charge or more than a standard charge. I just can't seat a boolit without being sure.

Everybody has their own thing.

Since last thursday, I have loaded 400 rifle and 700+ peestol. Just bought another brick of LP primers today. :) Many more to go.

David

[hydraulic]

If I shot a lot more, like many of you, I would probably want a faster method of loading, but being retired, and jealous of what few faculties I have left, I use my single stage press for resizing only. I weigh each charge after it comes from the measure and after the powder gets dumped into the case, that case never leaves my hand until the bullet is seated with a 310 seating die. Slow going, but I manage to load up 20 rds., most nice days, which is enough after I drive out to the farm and run them through my 1903A1. 25 grs of AA2200/Lyman 31141. Most of the time I can keep them all on the paper at 100 yds. Paper is 12X12.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Chargar, My Square Deal is a very early one, maybe over 20 years old. it has been rebuilt and upgraded by Dillon twice, and now is a very reliable machine. However, for best results it is best to be slow and deliberate in operating the SD. I have never had a zero, or over load. When I was learning the machine's little ways, I often got into the "oops, remove all the cases and start over" position. Once I learned to go very slowly, trouble became rare. As the shell plate ocmes down, I think "prime," then carefully seat the primer, then think "load," and insert a case and a bullet. As long as I concentrate, remember the chant, and do everything deliberately, all is well. even at a deliberate rate of operation it produces an amazing (to me) amount of ammunition, on the order of 500 rounds in two hours. But I admit that I am just waiting for it to run wild!

[David R]

One correction, I have had this thing for 2 weeks.

Yes slow is better. Once I learned on my Lee to go slow, I could load more boolits in less time. Gotta just take it easy and next thing ya know the cartridge collector is full.

David

[buck1]

""I was surfing some of the other gun forums and came on this which does work. I found it in the Handloading and Reloading section of The Firing Line forum posted by "Jbar4Ranch". I've copied and pasted his entire post below.""

I load large quanitys of 44s on a single stage press. Like you guys I check every case . But after6-8 hundred I can look at my charged case and seat the bullet, But not be sure that I rember the charge in the case. I always use a powder that I can not throw a doubble charge of when I can. I have pulled bullets to make sure It was charged. So far in over 20 years I have not missed one yet.
But I am sure the case is charged before it goes in the box. The funnel thing will save me a bit of pulling. Thanks ....Buck